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VNs, such as they are, don't actualize the immense potential of the medium. Even the best ones are awful when you compare them with other storytelling media. To reach a greater height, VNs have to grow out of the cave of lameness they're stuck in (and from what I can see, only descending deeper into).

1. Get rid of the dependence on genre conventions
Just about every single VN falls into some sort of anime type genre, both story- and artwise. Conventions of that subculture, or tropes are the cancer that are killing VNs. Portraying sex pornographically, hyperadolescent themes, archetypal characterization and so on keep VNs tightly locked as a niche that has no hope of ever appealing to anyone outside the incredibly tiny number of diehard anime fans that basically shape the limits of the potential audience current VNs have. Other video games have grown up a bit already and broadened their horizons. VNs could try, too.

2. Stop with the word diarrhea
Every VN I've read has had completely inadequate story for its wordcount. Writing longwindedly can be justifiable, but it seems to be more of a rule to drown your sparse good ideas into a swamp of forgettable dialogue or templated events. Consider the difference in wordcount of an average VN and an average theatre play script. Nowadays VNs seem to be overtly long mostly because they are expected to be so. Artificially extending the script beyond what it has to offer makes for a terribly boring reading experience.

3. Develop the theory of interactive storytelling
This is the single hardest part to do well when writing a VN, and the one that sets them apart from other storytelling media most clearly. I have never seen a VN that does branching/interactivity in a way that'd satisfy me. Notable is that western video games have handled interactivity much better, with western RPGs allowing for a variety of choices that organically branch out in different consequences.
>>
What you're asking is basically a story heavy point and click game, something that already exists but is quite niche anyway. Or a random game with a shitload of cutscenes, something that also exists.

Just let VNs be VNs, aka random fanfictions written by retards with free time.
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>>493959495
I don't disagree, but you talk like a faggot, so fuck you.
>>
Cliches are bad, but deliberately trying to subvert them always turns out obnoxious.
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>>493959495
Literally every issue you've described has been more or less solved by the following games, that's right I'm talking about games here not visual novels :
>Famicom Detective Club II
>Kyle Hyde games, namely Hotel Dusk and The Last Window
>Theresia
>Ace Attorney Series
>Danganronpa Series
>Zero Escape, especially 999 and VLR on DS and 3DS
>Ghost Trick
>Life is Strange
>Corpse Party
>Heavy Rain
>Your Turn To Die
>AI:The somnium files

Probably many others, especially untranslated games, that I have forgotten to include. And despite all that, they're still considered niche because they're not properly marketed or the average normalfag simply doesn't care and will associate them with books instead. Proper Visual Novels are fine as they are and I hope they stay relatively unknown. VNs are perfectly fine as they are and there's no reason to turn Fata Morgana into a dungeon crawler, Saya no Uta into a survival horror or to make Fate into a fighting game just for the sake of originality.
>>
They mostly don't take benefit of the visuals.
They'll throw a picture and then describe it in great detail.
The portraits basically only serve as as a way to see who's talking. Those radio novels are sometimes better at being VNs that VNs because they actually use sounds and ambience to paint the picture without describing it with words. Most VNs are a massive chore to read, and effort only goes in h-scenes, which I often skip.
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>>493959495
What VN's need to truly achieve their true form is 4th wall breaking and shock horror, or an ironic sense of humor :^)
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>>493959495
Don't use my wife to shitpost you fucking sperg
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>>493959495

It's easy to talk about the problems, but it's difficult to fully understand them. Go try and correct those problems with a game of your own, and you'll see why things are as they are.

On that note, the problems will never go away unless YOU go and correct them in spite of the reasons they exist.

Get to work!
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>>493961172
>It's easy to talk about the problems, but it's difficult to fully understand them. Go try and correct those problems with a game of your own
That game already exists, in fact, it's an entire genre:

western adventure games
>exploration, puzzle solving, character interaction, fully voice acted
>between games like Loom, Gabriel Knight and Grim Fandango, has some of the best writing in all of vidya

japanese adventure games (aka visual novels)
>no real gameplay, just walls of text with static anime backgrounds about some sexually inexperienced teenager being awkward around a variety of eager women
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>>493959495
When will people realize that the majority of VN readers have no interest in a "deep" story telling?
There's a reason why nearly every VN that does not utilize the genre conventions or have h-scenes completely fail.
The niche playing those games actively want them, whether that's a good or bad thing doesn't really matter.
Your average gamer will never care about VNs, because they don't like reading in the first place. That's probably the main reason why the genre is dying.
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>>493959495
>3. Develop the theory of interactive storytelling
>This is the single hardest part to do well when writing a VN, and the one that sets them apart from other storytelling media most clearly. I have never seen a VN that does branching/interactivity in a way that'd satisfy me. Notable is that western video games have handled interactivity much better, with western RPGs allowing for a variety of choices that organically branch out in different consequences.
I'm pretty skeptical of meaningful interaction with the story in video games until some pretty drastic development in AI. Even if there's a lot of branching, everything is still completely pre-written by the developers. It doesn't feel like I'm a part in making that story. It just feels like there's several interconnected but partially contradictory stories that I'm a passive spectator of. Or like there's some alternate timeline fanfics inside the game that I can choose to read in addition to the main story as well. It's not like the combination of all of my choices results in some unique story that the game developers didn't even have in mind. Of course in theory if there was an insane amount of branching it could result in me feeling like I was really a participant in that story in a strong sense, but I think this would require impossible amount work, time and imagination on the part of the game/VN developers.
It's not that there couldn't or shouldn't be more branching in VNs or game stories, but I just find it hard to get the game-like substance where the player feels like an active participant from that.
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>>493960565
This, leave mitcher alone
>>
If VNs are games:
1. Post an easy visual novel, and a hard visual novel, and tell me how the mechanics of the gameplay differ to create different difficulties.
2. Show an example of skilled high-level play and an example of unskilled low-level play and explain how and why they differ in terms of the player's ability to manipulate the gameplay mechanics.
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>>493959495
Does ddlc fall under these critisicsms? It's the only interesting VN I know of.
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>>493961591
Point&Click adventures have been dead for years. Especially American ones. They are as much of a niche as VNs are.
The only exception to this rule is Germany, where they are slightly more popular due to Daedalic and Germans having a weird taste in general (considering how we like janky Piranha Byte games or simulator games).
VNs started out as Point&Click adventures (just look at the PC-98), but evolved further, because people lost interest in the genre in Japan as well.
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>>493961778
DDLC sucks, because it copied the entire plot twist from a Japanese VN without even improving it.
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>>493959495
So, basically you want things to go back to the late 80s and early 90s where Japan still made adventure games?
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>>493961787
>VNs started out as Point&Click adventures (just look at the PC-98), but evolved further

>removing any semblance of gameplay and making the writing worse
>"evolution"
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1. Quit playing VNs that are on steam. They are pleb trash where people with 2 hour play times bump up rating for meme reviews. Find and share hidden gems so the casuals know what proper VNs are. Also sex should be a payoff and narrative tool. Not just "hey, lets do it in 40 different ways" as filler like "Eroge"

2. I agree but what is considered "fat to be trimmed" and what is "nice change of pace"? I'm all for cutting the boring bits but that is hard to gauge.

3. Interactivity is hard to do while keeping to the whole "VN". Some games like 999 do a nice balance between the two but its hard to pull off with every game and sometimes; devs know what sells. Sometimes that means TNA trash.

4. Understand this thread will get shitposted to hell and back and play pic related.
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>>493961858
Yes, because people would have stopped playing them otherwise.
>>
If rock paper scissors is a game:

Show me an example of high level of play, and low level play and explain why they different in terms of the players ability to manipulate the game play or tactics.
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>>493961591
You're right, that genre does correct the listed problems with VNs to a degree, but there are some issues with it-- they become clear when you look at the examples of the genre that have been released in the past decade.
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>>493959495
>3. Develop the theory of interactive storytelling
Western parser-based text adventures already solved this. The real shame is that they didn't use the growing processor power to make more things happen under the text in terms of physics and procedural lighting and fluids.
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>>493961857

>static background image
are there any japanese adventure games where you get to actually explore environments like you do in western adventure games?
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Read a sound novel instead
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>>493961778
>Baby first VN
>Literally the worst meta-twist ever

name 3 other VN you played
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>>493961591
And what about all the Japanese games >>493960291 listed you fucking troglodyte? I sure love shitposters of your kind.
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>>493961954
Sorry, meant to quote
>>493961718
>>
>>493961718
brainlet
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>>493962107
>And what about all the Japanese games >>493960291 listed you fucking troglodyte?
what about them? all those games still suffer from all the issues OP listed.

For example, I picked up The Nonary Games after hearing some positive buzz about its narrative focus, and I have to say I've been left disappointed. The story felt far-fetched and disjointed. The characters' dialogue seemed forced and unnatural. And the protagonist seems to be some sort of overgrown 14-year-old relentlessly perving on female characters. Bleh.

If you like having to cycle through pages of irrelevant "dialogue" then this is the game for you. I have no need to hear nine different characters reply to the same question. I would like to comment on the actual game, its just I haven't got there yet. The story line could have been encapsulated in a few lines. All the chat is merely pointless padding. And more so, its annoying, very, very annoying. There is no way of circumventing it either. If like me you love puzzles, but hate stilted, back story and 'dialogue'- that makes you want to smash your computer- then you might wish to look somewhere else. Puzzles please. Not blah, blah, bah.
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>>493962151
>>493962206
Why wont you answer the questions?
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>>493961718
Impossible. Unless there are minigames, VNs utilize the same mechanic and instead bank on story, characters, visuals, or other creative bits to drive the game. The only 'difficulty' you could describe in a straight up visual novel is one with a very large variety of choices, leading to certain outcomes only being possible through what essentially becomes a puzzle game within the VN. VNs are incomparable to DOTA. Furthermore, difficulty and skill are poor criteria for measuring whether something constitutes a 'game' or not, as that means I can desribe electric work as a game.
>inb4 but that means vns arent games
You wouldn't be exactly wrong; but neither are they anime, or LNs, or Manga. VNs are a chimera blend of different mediums that are most loosely closest to a game, in that usually the player influences an outcome from their input, even if it is as simple as clicking to the next sentence.
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>appealing to anyone outside
fuck that.
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>>493962305
Why won't you answer this?
>>493961954
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>>493962218
>If like me you love puzzles, but hate stilted, back story and 'dialogue'
Why do you read VNs when you clearly want puzzle games / point&click? It feels like you just want something to complain about
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>>493962305
difficulty is not defining feauture of a game
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>>493961718
>1. Post an easy visual novel, and a hard visual novel, and tell me how the mechanics of the gameplay differ to create different difficulties.
Assuming they don't have gameplay, it's the amount of choices they have.
A difficult VNs will have a fuckton of choices that will affect which route you will end up or if you get a bad end.
Good players have an easier time figuring out how each choice affects your playthrough.
Not the most difficult genre that exists, but does it really matter? It's not like Point&Click adventures are much better. Or any walking simulator.
People have fun with them and they are somewhat interactive, so they are closest to being games (especially because they can be mixed with other genres).
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>>493962047
Not that I can think of, but to be fair to Japanese devs there's not a huge difference between those static images and Myst, or the Legend, and Magnetic Scrolls games.
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>>493959495
Because only pathetic anime brain cumers "play" them. That's why it like that.
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>>493962403
Not him, but rock paper scissors is clearly a game of chance. You could argue there is no skill to it, but at least there are different outcomes depending on how you play. That's not the case for VN, unless you count multiple endings that don't really affect anything beyond what walls of text you get.
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>>493962461
Games like Myst have actual exploration and puzzle solving. Besides, the screenshot I posted is clearly the dominant style in the west.
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>>493960565
based, but you need to stop posting my wife too!
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>>493962485
>A game of chance
Sure, but it's still a "game"

I'd argue that good endings/bad endings are just as much of a win/lose outcome as RPS.
>>
to me VNs seem like the perfect medium to experiment with interactive storytelling with various story branches and dialogue options etc, so it boggles my mind that so many of them are literally just 15 hour slideshows with like 4-5 choices the player can make
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I've never understood why its so important for people who think VNs are games that they be considered such. Surely they should be arguing that they are novels, and wanting them in the same realm as the more respected medium of literature?
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Dont care. Post H cgi
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>>493962581
Because that's an absurd amount of writing.
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>>493962539

>cat dies

>AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOT THE KITTY KAT NOT THE KATTERINO AAAAAAAHHHH YUUUUJIIIIIIIIIIIII NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA NOOOOOOOOOO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU BURYYYYYYY ME ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVEEEEEEEEEE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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>>493962218
>all those games still suffer from all the issues OP listed.
>only talks about 999, and the butchered nonary games port at that
Play the game on DS instead. You'll be missing out on the entire thing, otherwise.
>And the protagonist seems to be some sort of overgrown 14-year-old relentlessly perving on female characters. Bleh.
??????
Are we talking about Junpei from 999 here? I'm not sure if you've actually played the game here.
>The story line could have been encapsulated in a few lines. All the chat is merely pointless padding. And more so, its annoying, very, very annoying. There is no way of circumventing it either.
You'd complain about the characters not being fleshed out enough if all of this "useless padding" wasn't there. Actually, forget what I just wrote. I'm under the impression that you're only looking to complain about a genre which you clearly don't like for no other reason than... complaining. Layton games might be more up your speed, because it looks like you're more of a proper gameplay person than a proper written story person which is understandable.
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>>493962675
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>>493962726
lel
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>>493959495
>it’s another imbecile that hates VNs and never played them wants to revolutionize the genre post
Can you dickless homosexuals please go and stay go? Kthxbye
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>>493962753
>the butt are talked
>as expected of butt
>>
Japanese are incapable of good storytelling. When it happens, it's rare occasion or a complete fluke.
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>>493962063
>sound novel
>most of the fandom is screeching at me for even hinting at the idea of me having read Higurashi and Umineko with the remade sprites and voices
I'm not sure if I'm getting everything here
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>>493962534
Only for that particular time period, and in the US. Here in Bongland we always had first-person visuals in our text adventures and we didn't pull back until the impact of Lucasarts and Sierra. I remember a review of Discworld calling it an "American-style Adventure game." Which is weird in hindsight.
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>>493959495
Is this the part were /v/ pretends that it can read?
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>>493959495
>2.
Absolutely true and the cancer plaguing the medium, the #1 factor I can't get anyone around me to play VNs, even great ones like muvluv or higurashi have so much useless blahbla before getting to the meat that act as a filter for most people

>1. Also true, like most japanese media, it's codified as fuck, diverging from successful formulas are a huge risk most creators aren't willing to take, even if you can find counter-examples like saya no uta, fata morgana

I hope you've played different VNs before complaining about the medium and not just grisaia which is overrated crap, by the way
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>>493962687
Then make them shorter.
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>>493961889
Why is there a faggot recommending his trash furry shit in every VN thread I see?
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>>493962687
If only there was some way in which we could create writing without writing it letter by letter? I mean, come on, people already solved this on 8bit computers.
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>>493962581
>to me VNs seem like the perfect medium to experiment with interactive storytelling with various story branches and dialogue options etc
Not really. RPGs do that far better, since your stats and skills actually affect your dialogue options, and you have non-combat skills like stealth to tackle situations in different ways, and making choices is more meaningful since there is an actual explorable game world that your choices can tangibly affect, unlike VNs that don't really have game world, but a slideshow of background art. It's not a question of budget either: indie RPGs have a lower budget than most VNs.

Most VNs have literally hours of uninterrupted dialogue before you're even allowed to make a choice that does nothing but put on you on a slightly different pre-scripted story branch.
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>>493959495
>found a type of noob "I like DDLC just because it did deconstruction of the genre", jenny.
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>>493962929
>Only for that particular time period
what time period would that be? the first graphical adventure game was Mystery House in 1980, and it has been the dominant style ever since.
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>>493963242
You also have text adventures where you can have characters reacting to things you do and say, and change based on how you interrupt their schedule, like in Deadline.
>>
Okay so what's your point basically? The genre is fine as it is and doesn't need to be touched. It does what it does in a great manner and allows for some basic novel storytelling with music and slideshow pictures. At times it directly involves the reader like in Umineko even without the need of actual gameplay elements, just like with mystery novels. Why do you feel that there's a need to fix what ain't broken?

Play Ace attorney or something
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>>493959495
What's does Mitcher's asshole taste like?
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>>493959495
2 is a killer.

The common vns that western audiences are familiar with, phoenix wright, danganronpa, 999, maybe ghost trick and hotel dusk, dont have much of this. I think cliches can be gotten away with because theres only so many types of characters you can possibly come up with. But having more interactive minigames like danganronpa would be a good start, those are fun
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>>493963508
>and it has been the dominant style ever since.
Infocom and Scott Adams being just strange curiosities no one really paid any attention to, I take it?
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>>493963202
feeding the fires to the kino gods

It's not my fault you beat it to pornhub pollution trash.
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>>493959495
the best VNs are the ones without any player choices.

Whar VNs are good at is making plays with inner monologues, background music to keep you engaged by building up tension, and graphics and sfx to anchor the world building into something you can see.
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>read nothing but nukige
>"dude why is this nothing but porn LMAO"
loling @ (You) kid
>>
The problem with VNs is the same as the problem with "cinematic action games," (but ironically less with walking simulators) and that is that they have to stop being games in order to become what people play them for.
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>>493960291
yeah, actually, as for "point click adventure" or just "ADVs", Japanese has been a leading innovator and are one of a few markets where consumer keep playing the genre broadly since 80s. Its really recent that western restarted to make ADVs and which are heavily influenced by Japanese style, just like VA-11 Hall-A.
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>>493962218
>what about them? all those games still suffer from all the issues OP listed.
You fucking piece of shit, nice way to out yourself nigger. Hotel Dusk, theresia and corpse Party don't fit what OP said at all. Make sure to think twice before posting or kill yourself, shitposter.
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>>493959907
straight out of the mouth of one of the dumbasses in idiocracy
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>>493959495
I agree with you, but the rest of the 100 people that already play VN regularly are just going to tell you to fuck off, because that's just the way they like them. Go check the vn thread on /vg/, most people there read garbage moege and consider a vn having no sex to be a downside.
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>>493964060
The best of that bunch is Ace Attorney and even it suffers from all the typical VN games. 99% of Ace Attorney games is spent clicking through non-interactive dialogue, like in any visual novel. What few puzzles there are restricted to the court room phase.

This is in contrast to actual adventure games, which have less of en emphasis on non-interactive dialogue and place more of an emphasis on exploration and puzzle solving with some degree of non-linearity.
>>
Visual Novels are a pathetic pygemy genre that aren't even video games. Grow the fuck up and read actual books.
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>>493959495
>Portraying sex pornographically
This is unironically, and I legitimately mean this, is the respectable and proper way to do it 8 times out of 10.
Sex has a lot of emotion and power to it, and to not portray it pornographically would be to not respect or to avoid the qualities that sex has.
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>>493959495
>Nowadays VNs seem to be overtly long mostly because they are expected to be so.
Feel like that's been going on forever. Also the Japanese standard of holding your hand and treating you like a retard while explaining every plot point 3 times per hour doesn't help.
Maybe it's filler, maybe gametesters in Japan has shown that otaku are actually mongoloids.

>>493964408
Doesn't have the self-insert a lot of fans crave. And they would just go read light novel trash instead.
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>>493959495
Genres and their conventions exist because they are effective, but even when trying to defy them, their utilization is still required. One can't simply play with expectations if there are none. I agree that certain tropes grow tiresome, as do character archetypes, but interesting and developed characters and situations can be, and have been, built on the backs of such templates.

>word diarrhea
I don't know what VNs you have read, but I can't think of any were I felt an unnecessary amount of exposition, description, or dialog was pervasive throughout the entire novel. There are definitely scenes, bits of dialog, or ideas the author felt like expounding on that I felt were extraneous, but never something that outright ruined the experience. I actually quite enjoy lengthy dialogs and stories that take their time developing characters and building a sense of mystery, affection, melancholy, etc. Perhaps you should trying reading some more novels, both visual and traditional. Is there a particular genre, setting, or premise that interests you, and could you provide some examples of what you have read?
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>>493964508
Not OP, but unless it's a nukige and the sex scenes are the point of the game, there's no real reason to explicitly show the characters having sex, most of the "character development" that people usually claim that it's lost in all-ages versions of VN doesn't even exist, or would be the same if you just had implied sex without actually showing it, the same way other mediums do it.
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>>493964560
>Doesn't have the self-insert a lot of fans crave
A great swathe of novels are written from the first person perspective. Literally the same shit except you're not starring at boring static images of cartoon characters.
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>>493964508
how many books describe sex in graphic detail? heck, how many books feature sex in the first place

this is why I can't take visual novels seriously. they're hailed as this amazing storytelling medium, yet they're dominated by juvenile masturbatory tropes
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>>493964590
OP's picture is the perfect example, Grisaia is so fucking bloated, there's so much inconsequential shit that happens in the common route. I get that they have to introduce all the characters and set up the premise so that they can subvert it later, but you don't need 20 hours of text (or maybe more I don't remember) just for that.
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>>493964921
>A great swathe of novels are written from the first person perspective.
The diffrence is that protagonists in novels speak constantly. And when they're not speaking, we're privy to their thoughts.

In visual novels, you're lucky if you get to choose 1 response for every half hour other characters speak. Protagonists in VNs are nothing like protagonists from books, they're more like Gordon Freeman if anything: mute non-entities for the player to project themselves on and that other characters worship for no reason.
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>>493964994
>how many books describe sex in graphic detail?
A lot of them. The ones with guts anyway.
But maybe it's different in America. I don't know.
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>>493961718
easy VN: literally any moege
hard VN: something like Tsukihime or Fate where it's really easy to pick a choice or set of choices where you end up dead.
I know it was bait, but you are retarded, don't talk about shit you don't know about.
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>>493959495
>the problem with VNs.
They really arent video games.
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>>493965186
>A lot of them. The ones with guts anyway.
Not at all. Moby Dick, Dune, Lord of the rings, brave new world...some of the greatest pieces of literature of all time and none of them even feature any graphic sex.
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>>493959495
The word diarrhea is by far the worst offender. If you stray off the beaten path and read some more obscure VN's then you'll be drowned in pages upon pages of inner monologue and slice-of-life scenes where nothing at all ever happens.

Even some of the popular ones like Higurashi, Muv-Luv and I dunno, Chaos;Child are way longer than they need to be.

Yes, I seem to have a love and hate relationship with this whole genre.
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>>493963719
get back to your containment board, furry filth
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>>493962084
Trust me, my taste in VN's in trash, that's basically the only one I know, other than Sakura Beach.
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>>493964508
>porn is mature meme
Let me tell you about that one time I played Kara no Shojo:
>game is set in post WW2 Japan
>a bleak, super srs setting featuring some older Japanese traditions that don't exist anymore
>murder mystery featuring a Japanese Jack the Ripper
So far so good, but then:
>you visit your local coroner chick to pick up some important clues
>she suddenly starts sucking your dick and then you have super hardcore
anal sex with her with lots of fully voiced dirty talk
>everyone gets dressed and the game pretends nothing happened and you move on with the story
okay....
>the female lead of the game is a high school student that nudges you to try and solve the mystery ASAP
>spend more time with her because she seems important
>there's suddenly a scene where you have sex with her in full day light in a public park with her virginal blood dripping down your penis
WTF
>protagonist visits the grave of his fiancee that was murdered by the same Not Jack the Ripper
>reminiscences about those days with her
>super detailed porn scene of the dead fiancee sucking your dick
That's kinda when I dropped it, just couldn't take it seriously anymore lol.
>>
>>493959495

OP is right about everything. I also always felt like that.

I have some plans for the development of an own VN. If so, I will try to not make the same mistakes.
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>>493965435
Muv Luv Alternative sucks so fucking much because of this. Long as fuck expositional dialogues and briefings, non stop bullshit inner whining about everything, MC literally can't stop thinking for a five seconds, fuck.
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>>493965186
Unless it's smut you don't have every action the characters take during sex narrated in detail. I don't need to read stupid shit like this.
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I've seen people argue for a "fast forward" button on VNs. It's the same as those "people" that want a skip gameplay button.
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>>493964994
Erotic romance novels dominate the American novel market by title count and sales but people have mentally compartmentalized them and don't think of them when they here the word "novel."
For whatever reason the Anglosphere "VN" subculture hasn't done that separation.
>>
>>493966871
Most VN's already have that button though? It's usually CTRL.

Good job exposing yourself as a tourist I guess.
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>>493966401
>reading about another man describing his sexual pleasure and the woman saying how good that man is at fucking her
lol pathetic
>>
>>493959495
>stop the word diarrhea
Like your shitty post? Lmao
>>
>>493966943
>not up to date with all the ways people have developed to skip vast parts of the game they will use as a defence of the genre
>guess I win this round
>>
>>493966896
>Erotic romance novels
nobody takes these seriously

whereas vn fans take their medium seriously and treat it as high art
>>
>>493967131
It's weird that they want it to be taken seriously as art, then argue that they're video games, not literature. At least comics fans really go all-in with their "graphic NOVELS! Watchmen was in Time's best NOVELS list" talk.
>>
>>493965435
I was fine with Higurashi when it started because I just figured they really wanted a slow build-up, but nope, didn't stop there.
#1 spot goes to psuedo-VN Danganronpa though. I swear if you cut out the characters meaningless repeating of every.single.thing you can throw 60% of that game in a dumpster.
Also has the problem of having a dozen+ characters so every time someone coughs you need to pan around for everyone to react to it one at a time.
>>
>>493959495
God i hate normalfags
>>
>>493965931
>>493959495
>stop Portraying sex pornographically
fuck off nu-male soi boys
leftism is a mental illness and visual novel weren't made for brainlet white trash like you faggots
>>
>>493967280
>I swear if you cut out the characters meaningless repeating of every.single.thing you can throw 60% of that game in a dumpster.
The issue is that there's no limit on their word count. It was different back when there was a hard storage limit in terms of floppy/cartridge space, but now? Yeah, just go wild.
>>
>>493967348
>if you don't enjoy extremely out of place hyper porny scenes then you're a... brainlet
shut the fuck up retard
>>
>>493967348
>fuck off nu-male soi boys
If I wanted to watch porn, I have billions of porn videos just a quick internt search away.

why do you need cringy descriptions of sex in your novels?
>>
>>493967480
It's especially bad with something like Yu-no.
>What's the game about: the mysterious disappearance of your father and his experience with time, dimensions, quantum physics, etc.
>What is the game: 85% dating sim for the porn payoff
In the end the most interesting part of the game is the PDF of your father's report and the note you find in his desk and the end, and you can just have them in a text file.
>>
Aren't visual novels dying anyway? Not even nips are interested in them anymore.
>>
>>493967715
Jut make your own game without porn
>>
>>493967974
>Aren't visual novels dying anyway?
I hope so.
>>
>>493967974
They're doing better than ever. They've finally had a breakthrough in the west and even niche titles get reviewed by the major sites.
>>
>>493967974
Sadly, they're booming. I wonder if the prevalence of "I play games for the story" fags has something to do with it.
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The fuck is this?
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>>493967480
That shit has always been funny to me. The idea that there's a bunch of autists out there really into horrible VN sex scene writing and dialogue and will defend them with all their might. I'm guessing it's the same people who applaud the worst of the worst erotic fanfiction, that just like the majority of VNs is written by people who have no business writing erotica.
>>
>>493967974
99% of them are flavor of the month highschool moege so kinda.
>>
>>493968128
This.
Retards only stated crawling out of the woodwork now that they've been "officially" translated and put on steam.
>>
>>493968254
another reminder to stop being an EOP
>>
>>493967974
Financially, no; creatively, yes.
>>
>>493959495
The problem with visual novels is that they exist.
>>
>>493959495
Unless you know japanese don't write a fucking thesis about VNs you retarded pleb.
>>
>>493959495
>Other video games have grown up a bit already and broadened their horizons
And with this the retard loses all point of argument as he's just another SJW fuckhead
>>
>>493968914
And guess how I know you're a moege playing incel, retard?
>>
>>493967124
Not him, but that button is used since at least twenty years, hardly something to "keep up-to-date" about.
>>
>>493968875
>JOPs praise some VN as the best one yet made
>it finally comes out in English
>it's pure trash
Case in point, Dies irae.

JOPs are more of gatekeepers than good taste connoisseurs.
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>>493959495
I love Hanako!
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>>493961889
>1. Quit playing VNs that are on steam. They are pleb trash where people with 2 hour play times bump up rating for meme reviews. Find and share hidden gems so the casuals know what proper VNs are.
Is this bait? Why are you recommending generic OELVN trash when Steam has Utawarerumono, Baldr Sky, Muv Luv, Raging Loop, Clannad, Island, Umineko, Higurashi, Grisaia, Chaos;Child, Planetarian, Dies Irae, 428, G-senjou no Maou, Fata Morgana, etc.
>>
>>493969374
This is the ultimate redpill.
Never forget how /jp/ hyped up the mediocrity of steins;gate 0 as the 2nd coming of crhist up until the day it was released in english and everyone was disappointed and they went "actually it was shit all along lol"

The real masterpieces are those garbage bin shovelware shitty vns that will never be translated, trust me on that
>>
>>493967131
>whereas vn fans take their medium seriously and treat it as high art
Where the fuck did you're retarded ass hear that?
VNs have always been this happy niche thing people like. The only retards demanding the gaming medium be taken seriously and seen as high art are the people too embarrassed to admit to Uncle Bob they review children's toys for a living.
>>
>>493967480
Stop playing Nukige then. You do know the difference between nukige and eroge, right?
>>
>>493969374
>he admits he got filtered hard by pure unbridled KAMIGE
Plebs have no say or voice on VNs. Begone plebian.
>>
>>493970297
Kara no Shojo was marketed as a murder mystery thriller instead of a nukige. And it was still full of completely retarded hardcore porn scenes where everyone breaks character and all immersion is thrown out of the window. Just so that a few autists could jerk off to that lmao.
>>
>>493970297
But that's wrong you absolute retard, h-scenes in nukige are the only ones that aren't out of place. The ones in every other kind of eroge are.
>>
>>493968998
Oh no, I actually play and support developers of a foreign nation for making games I think are fun.
OH THE HUMANITY. Won't someone think of the plague ridden denizens of San Francisco?
Here's the thing retard, the games being called "mature" and "grown up" are more childish than a game made for actual toddlers ever will be. There are no "mature" games, all games are for children, whether you like it or not.
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>>493965435
I prefer small-time indie/doujin games over VNs these days. If it's just one person making the game, chances are pretty good that it wastes your time less while having similar strengths like VNs.
>>
>>493959495
>Stop with the word diarrhea
“No”
>>
>>493970940
>t. Patrician
>>
>>493968254
She's lying to you there. It's a really good VN.
>>
>>493959495
you just need to find the good one tho
>>
>>493959495
Who cares nigger they're fun
>>
>>493971524
Picture not related, I presume?
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>>493960565
When does Grisasia stop being so dull?
>>
vn's are cheap ways to program games when all you are skilled in is media presentation but suck ass at programming
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>stop the word diarrhea
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>>493966439
Someone put them in a hazmat suit or else corona will get them
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>hopeless at writing
>hopeless at drawing
at least you are still qualified to make a VN
>>
The thing with VNs is that factually 95% of them are worthless trash and the people who still think they are acceptable are pure and utter cancer.
I don't think either of these two things is going to change anytime soon, if ever.

What >>493960291 wrote is also true.
There are actual games that take the VN aspects and make the software worthwhile (something that is just a VN is worthless and a waste of space).
It's not that there was never software that transpired the VN shithole and turned out to be interesting. It's just that the average VN """player""" has basically no standards and is content with consuming generic garbage. Kinda like the people buying Madden and Fifa every year. Nearly all of them are braindead consumers when it comes to video games.
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>>493960565
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>>493959495
This is so reductive. OK, let's go through this one by one.
>potential
True, VN format has untapped potential, which is why it's starting to get mixed into other japanese (and non-japanese) games nowadays. But the way it's used now is not bad or wasteful.
>even the best ones are awful
A broad claim. Which ones are best in your opinion, what do you compare them to, by what criteria do they fail? This sentence doesn't convey much on its own. Maybe you just didn't read the actual good ones, for example, or you're comparing VNs to Russian Golden Age novelists, or something.
>problems
This one is kinda interesting. Let's go through this one by one.
>1
VNs, and anime too, are not a genre, it's a medium. Those things are extremely broad.
Otaku fiction does create stereotypes, but it's more in the same way Hollywood does. As in, the industry places restrictions which mainstream adheres to since it's all genre fiction, but if you dig deeper there's tons of exceptions since the system allows it. In fact, I would say one of the main traits of otaku fiction system is that outliers that survived the initial industry resistance and proven their value are mostly not limited afterwards. The system allows for lots of variability in general, even if the industry enforces some tropes.
In short, you can always find plenty of VNs or anime or manga that just ignore these tropes if you dig deeper.
And also, why is genre fiction assumed to be bad here? It's a perfectly valid use of medium, anyway. There are novels that are more ambitious, those are few, as always. Most aren't, and that's not bad, just the way modern media works.
>>
>>493972009
>all these cucks on twitter getting scared and using it as leverage for their provacc campaign ignoring that they didn't have a vacc for it in the first place
>>
>>493972150
The silly thing is R07 is actually a pretty good artist. You should check out some of his old Higurashi-era art books, the guy is legit amazing if he wants to be.
Supposedly he decided to stick literal MS paint doodles into Higurashi so they wouldn't detract from the writing, but that just sounds like a dumb excuse to me
>>
>>493972324
kek
>>
>>493959495
>>493972262
>sex
Isn't a bad thing. Romantic relationships without it just feel incomplete to me nowadays, honestly, it's just walked around way too much. The main problem of sex is that when it actually does appear, everybody is so surprised by it, they immediately focus on it and ignore anything else, but it's the fault of current standards, not portrayals of sex itself. If you read enough otaku fiction, you just learn to not focus on it so much eventually. Sex still sells and some people are obsessed, but it just isn't that jarring if you don't assume it's jarring by default. Industry standards do make authors put it even if unneeded, but the point is, it's not sex itself being allowed that's the problem.
>2
I never got why it is bad. I enjoy extraneous writing since I just enjoy the process of reading. Sure, if it's just people repeating the same thing over and over, I'm annoyed, but overall, additional SOL or fluff just makes me more immersed. I nowadays think it's probably one of distinctive parts of otaku fiction, not being so afraid of putting in a couple of irrelevant character-building scenes, and it works for many people. Without this, the world feels emptier.
Sure, to some degree focus needs to be kept, but it's not a black and white problem, where less writing is always better.
I can't really argument against this since I don't get the problem, honestly.
>3
Interactivity is hard, and it depends on the VN. It could be done better, but when you go deep enough into interactivity, you kinda start needing RPG elements more and more to simulate stuff you don't care about with an easier model.
VNs are Books 2.0: now with images and sounds, anyway. In their core they're just a new type of book, through a medium of a computer game (meaning there is an executable, and a complex program showing you the book). Interactivity doesn't matter for them as much as for usual computer games, since they're intentionally restricted in what they use.
>>
>>493965406
>Moby Dick, Dune, Lord of the rings
Literally childrens books. Brave New World had heaps of sexual themes.
>>
>>493970470
>Kara no Shoujo ~ I'm A Private Investigator And Have To Go Undercover @ My Imouto's All Girl Elite Academy Harem????!!!!
DRRRRROPPED it right there.

>>493971897
Most VNs have terrible presentation though and amount to little more than an anime opening, stale backgrounds, stock sound effects and 2D portraits of archetypal anime characters awkwardly sliding in and out of scenes. Because not half-assing your game is for posers. And being different is not in the Japanese vocabulary.
>>
>>493972494
>stale backgrounds, stock sound effects and 2D portraits of archetypal anime characters awkwardly sliding in and out of scenes.
having to do that outside of the avi opening is a programming thing
it's not like they used powerpoint to make the game
unless..............
>>
>>493965406
Moby Dick and Dune both have sex in them, hell, fucking Dune has entire chapters dedicated to the life of a sex worker that gets captured and forced to be part of some scumbags harem.
Haven't read Brave New World and don't really remember too much of LotR to say one way or another for them.
>>
>>493959495
isnt it just gacha shit that makes money in japan now?
>>
>>493959495
>This is the single hardest part to do well when writing a VN, and the one that sets them apart from other storytelling media most clearly.
I mean, the problem with this is that not all story scenes can be effectively written to accommodate a gameplay section. That forces a creative limitation on the kind of stories you can write. Sometimes, the most sensible way to progress a story is simply to engage in conversations with various characters.
>>
>>493959495
Too long
Didn’t read
>>
>>493959495
>Get rid of the dependence of genre conventions
Visual novels are far, FAR more creative than Hollywood movies or American TV shows/games, both in terms of plots and characters. They take much more risks and are less afraid of being considered weird or "cringe". Not really a problem.
>Stop with the word diarrhea
It depends, but I mostly agree. They tend to be too long and the interesting parts of the plot are mixed with an excessive amount of filler. But, once again, the same could be said of American media.
>Develop the theory of interactive storytelling
They are interactive enough to me, but... who knows? Maybe they can surprise me
>>
>>493972492
Sexual themes but no explicit description of sex how one would find in a VN.
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>>493960372
This. It's hard to go back to VNs that just have fixed center, left, and right sprite positions after playing Muv-Luv.
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>>493964994
>how many books describe sex in graphic detail? heck, how many books feature sex in the first place
im told stephen king's it had an orgy involving kids.
>>
>>493964408
But books are shit.
Even fanfiction is more exciting then books these days.
>>
>>493973087
>Visual novels are far, FAR more creative than Hollywood movies or American TV shows/games, both in terms of plots and characters.
I hate 'murican media but this is complete bullshit
>>
>I want more DDLC: the thread
>>
>>493973629
you know the reason that Mountains of Madness didn't get made was because hollywoods exec would not allow it being made unless it had a romantic subplot and a happy ending.
>>
>I have never seen a VN that does branching/interactivity in a way that'd satisfy me. Notable is that western video games have handled interactivity much better, with western RPGs allowing for a variety of choices that organically branch out in different consequences.
lmao
>>
>>493959495
Nothing wrong with tropes/conventions itself but the incompetence to give life to them.
>>
If a game is nothing but one key being pressed over and over again, with no requirements as to the nature of that key press (i.e. the arrow keys on a rhythm game), then it is a BAD game. The writing, story, and characters, may be amazing, but the GAME is bad, and if you want V.N.s to be considered games then you have to accept that they are BAD GAMES. If you want them to be judged on their writing, characters, prose, etc. then perhaps you should be arguing that they are literature, and take it to /lit/?
>>
>>493973087
>Visual novels are far, FAR more creative than Hollywood movies or American TV shows/games
why are you comparing visual novels to those rather than other novels? which would actually be a logical comparison

vn's don't hold a candle to real books
>>
>>493969374
>JOPs praise
No, the twitter e-celebs you follow do that. Usually the same group of trannies who "translate" the trash you read too.
>>
>>493974381
I don't think you even read books other than classics. All the best VNs from last decade wipe the floor with the best books from last decade.
>>
>>493974381
Being more creative than American movies and TV is not really something worth bragging about.
>>
>>493973629
I have watched way too many American shows and, especially, Hollywood movies, and they are easily the most generic thing in the world. They always want to appeal to everyone and they end up being too homogenized. Their stories cannot be too campy unless they are coated with cynicism because that's "cringy", but they cannot be too creative or intelligent either because that's too "weird" or "pretentious".
>>
>>493974558
>I don't think you even read books other than classics. All the best VNs from last decade wipe the floor with the best books from last decade.

This author alone BTFO's all the VN's from the last decade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Mi%C3%A9ville
>>
>>493974558
>muh thinly veiled waifu games with a twist are better than real books
lmao
>>
>>493975058
That's ddlc
>>
Okay.
Can someone recommend me some fucking books then?

I just want something with a decent romance, some mystery and a zero to hero protagonist
>>
>>493975583
Le Morte D'arthur.
>>
>>493975583
>I just want something with a decent romance, some mystery and a zero to hero protagonist

>VN fans only want power fantasies and love stories
Figures.
>>
>>493975750
>muh love stories bad
>>
>>493972494
I don't defend KnS but Kara no Shoujo 2 is worth a check.
They tone down the immersion breaking sex out of nowhere and guro edginess by a lot thpugh of course there are still a few mandatory sex scenes
>>
99% of VNs are pedo shit.
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>>493975750
Look at this retard.
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>>493959495
Play Plumbers Don't Wear Ties. It's a good VN.
>>
>>493976110
>muh love stories bad
No, but you are retarded if you don't think shoehorning in pointless romances is one of the biggest problems in storytelling. Funnily enough, it's a problem both VNs and hollywood movies are guilty of. Hack writers think a romance is the easiest way to tug the heartstrings.

The majority of actually well-written books either don't feature a romance t all, or only feature it as a background element. Theree's nothing wrong with romances, but they aren't the end all be all of human life.
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>>493971910
delete this fucking image
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>>493976906
Romance and Sex is the way of life bro.
Your mother and father did the diddly to make your sorry ass.
>>
>>493961718
Sengoku Rance is hard, Little buster is easy
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Some things should just stay niche for a reason.
NTR and Vanilla as they say.
>>493974883
Who the hell names their child China?
>>
Imagine defending sex in the context of a VN where you work to make the girl you like most fuck a guy who isn't you.
>>
>>493968128
True just look how much muv-luv has raised on kickstarter in order to have an official english edition.
One fucking million.
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>>493977669
That's the whole story of Chaos;Child.
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>>493959495
Adventure games have been around forever and do all of that..
The countless VNs are lazy. Give me some animated sprites and physical world exploration, even if you have to use fucking RPGMaker like many involved in the horror genre do.
The Ace Attorney Investigations Edgeworth games were nice. Gimme more of that.
>>
>>493961954
Not him but most if not all games boil down to rock paper scissors at their most fundamental layer when it comes to decision making.
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>>493978335
You can use RPG maker (or rather, that JRPG paradigm) for adventure games. It was done wonderfully in Ihatovo Monogatari, which is less than 4 hours long and I bet impacts its players far more than the 50+ hour visual novels.

Also the music is wonderful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkOq9ZZFSRk
>>
>>493978335
I think I'd be fine with the 'static image from a first person perspective' if you could still look around and pan the camera like you could in Riven.
>>
>>493978761
>I bet impacts its players
you lost that bet
>>
>>493978761
It helps that they based its stories off the works of a skilled author rather than anime.
>>
>>493962218
>For example, I picked up The Nonary Games after hearing some positive buzz about its narrative focus, and I have to say I've been left disappointed. The story felt far-fetched and disjointed. The characters' dialogue seemed forced and unnatural. And the protagonist seems to be some sort of overgrown 14-year-old relentlessly perving on female characters. Bleh.
none of the characters in 999 are underage and the story is rarely fan service heavy
what the fuck?
you never played the game you lying nigger
>>
>>493971667
>t. brainlet
>>
>>493978335
I hate it in old adventure games when important objects are inconspicuous and/or need to be interacted with in completely illogical ways. Some newer rpgmaker games suffer from it too, like Ao Oni.
Walking around in a physical world is great though.
>>
>>493979861
>none of the characters in 999 are underage
they still look and behave like children
>>
>>493961889
>Quit playing VNs that are on steam
stopped reading there, shut the fuck up you dumb furry faggot
and i say this as someone that likes furry
>>
>>493970885
game?
>>
>>493973372
why hasn't there been another vn series with the same level of presentation of muv-luv?
>>
>>493980468
It takes more effort than slapping a bunch of stationary sprites onto the screen.
>>
>>493980352
Towelket 6
>>
>>493980256
just because whitoids like you age like milk and asians barely age don't mean they look like children
and clover acted ""childish"" was because that's her character
>>
>>493980468
I'm pretty sure there is. We just don't know about them because we're EOP
>>
>>493961718
Easy VN: DDLC. Story is uncomplicated, characters are one-dimensional, nothing happens that obscures the real story.
Hard VN: Umineko. Story is complex, with multiple layers of reality and fiction. Characters have complex motives that they keep hidden and are difficult to understand. Unreliable narration deliberately misleads you about what’s real and what’s not, making it hard to find the truth of the story.
>>
>>493981020
meanwhile, other games have more complex stories while also having actual gameplay
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>>493969391
Good Choice
>>
>>493981020.
>Hard VN: Umineko. Story is complex, with multiple layers of reality and fiction. Characters have complex motives that they keep hidden and are difficult to understand. Unreliable narration deliberately misleads you about what’s real and what’s not, making it hard to find the truth of the story.

Did we read the same story? Yeah sure I didn't get anything in the first few chapter but at the 7-8th chapters everything was pretty clear. Are you just memeing? The VN literally spells it out for you at the end.
>>
>>493981623
Thanks, Lilybro.
>>
>>493959495
The problem with VNs is that is fake shit, as soon as I got something going on with my stepsister I dropped them
>>
>>493972397
The expressions are good.
I'd hate a lot of Higurashi and especially Umineko if the faces were more generic like most works. Here when a character is described as "smug" or "sobbing", that actually fucking matters with the character sprite soon.
>>
>>493972397
Got any pics?
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>>493959495
>all that complicated stuff
Who cares. I just wanna date cute & small girls and VNs let me do that.
>>
>>493981689
Because you're supposed to find the answers yourself and not wait for the game to explain them. Try to find out the truths by just playing episodes 1-4. The thing you did is equivalent to reading the last few pages of a mystery novel and laughing your ass of because the answer is so simple.
>>
>>493982041
What the fuck are you saying?
Are you that stupid?
>HURRR DURR YOURE NOT SUPPOSE TO READ THE ENDING OF A VN YOURE SUPPOSE TO STOP HALFWAY AND GUESS THE ENDING
>>
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Here is the problem with VNs as a storytelling device: you can't do anything.

If you read a fantasy book, you will read about characters going on adventures, traveling through dangerous environments, combating enemies, gaining new tools and learning magical abilities.

If you play a fantasy RPG, you will play as characters going on adventures, traveling through dangerous environments, combating enemies, gaining new tools and learning magical abilities.

If you 'play' a fantasy visual novel, you will read about characters talking...and talking...and talking, and that's all you do.

VN as a medium shouldn't exist.
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>>493982260
It's a fucking mystery you nigger. It explicitly tells you multiple times to go back, reread previous chapters and make your own concept of what happens in the end before moving on to the last episodes.
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Why is Michiru so sexual?
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>>493980256
If you ever go the jew college, people indeed continue to act like this passed 20.
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>>493982438
Shut the fuck up you god damn retard.
How is it a "Hard VN"? Your points are moot because it gives you the fucking answer.
Fuck you fuck this board. Get a heart attack and die bitch.
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>>493981804
Sometimes I wonder if i would stop playing slg choukyou games if i ever get a real sex slave
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>>493982763
>t. never read a mystery novel before
Most mystery novels work like that. They give you the answers at the end because they expect that you'll come up with your own theory before it's over, so that you can compare your reasoning with the truth and pat yourself on the back if you got it right. Not that a brainlet who gets carried by the story would understand.
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>>493983282
>Carried by the story
You are the most retarded person I've met on this board. I will pray to Allah that you will die tonight.
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>VN's have no difficulty meme
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>>493983945
>there have been people who have actually solved higurashi
Impresses me more than phd physicists desu
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>>493959495
Did you buy her own game?
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>>493959495
>2. Stop with the word diarrhea

This, so much fucking this. I've read so many 50 hour VN's which contain 5 to 10 hours of actual story & plot content and the other 40 hours is inane garbage and unnecessary verbose descriptions of everything that's taking place. The worst offender is when the protagonist explains how he feels for 20 minutes about recent events when his opinion really doesn't fucking matter.
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>>493984575
Doesn't this happen in actual books too?
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>>493984118
If enough people make enough guesses then anything is possible.

"Brain parasites were behind it all" felt like such a cop out though. It's like they wrote the mystery first but then had to find an explanation for it later down the road.
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>>493984118
Depends by which chapter they solved it. Looking back on it, I don't think it was particularly hard, I had a decent understanding of what's going on by the end of chapter 3. Umineko, on the other hand, fucked me over pretty badly.
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>>493984653
No. Even the most bloated doorstopper isn't as bad as that.
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>>493984653
It does. You wouldn't believe the borefest they made me read in highschool. At least VN's have pictures.
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>>493984575
>when the protagonist explains how he feels for 20 minutes
>in the middle of a fucking action scene
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>>493984997
>At least VN's have pictures.

>the level of intelligence of VN fans
>>
Visual novels are just an outdated medium. There were two purposes to visual novels.
1.A way to have sex scenes with anime style stories.
2.A way to make much longer stories than you could otherwise do in manga or anime, since it's very cheap and not very time consuming to make visual novels.
Nowadays light novels and web novels serve the same purpose. There's really no reason for VNs to exist anymore.
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>>493959495
What problem are you even trying to solve? The people who loke VNs like them how they are: full of clichés and with a lot of words and scenes that set the mood and have nice sol instead of muh plot.
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>>493984835
I don't know bro. Stephen King constantly ran into this problem. I dropped most of his books because of how much he wouldn't shut up about people's clothing or other irrelevant shit
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>>493959495
This post is a really surface-level analysis from someone who has at best played 20 minutes of an actual VN, and Doki Doki literature club. I don't know how you thought this was good enough to start a thread with. What a lame analysis that speaks in pure generalities. You should give a list of what VN's you actually played. If you want a story with a unique way of branching paths, try Root Double, which allows you to change how the story plays out by adjusting how the MC feels about certain characters on the fly.
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>>493985453
>MUH BEEEESHEEE
>CHANGES HOW THE STORY PLAYS OUT
>10MINS LATER
>BAD END BECAUSE YOU DIDNT TRUST YOUR COWORKERS
Hahahahaha how fucking deluded are you retards?
>>
What's the name of that VN which had one of the main love interests break the fourth wall and fucking murder you if you betrayed her halfway through her route?

I remember it was only partially translated in english which was a private translation which doesn't exist anywhere, but there was a youtube video of that 'betrayal' route which was english subbed.
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>>493960565
Your wife likes other girls though?
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>>493985062
what? You don't like people talking about FOREKNOWLEDGE?
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>>493984653
Yes.
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>>493959495
I agree with a lot of your points however you have to realise stuff like this doesn't sell nearly as well as a straight novel and requires a lot more work which is why we don't have as many quality VNs as books
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>>493985705
君と彼女と彼女の恋, you dumb EOP.
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>>493985686
Reductionism only makes you look retarded
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>>493985453
I think op used the ol' "talk shit as way of getting game recs" trick.
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>>493985705
Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi.
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>>493985453
>Very long (> 50 hours)

Hahahahaha.

No.
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>>493985212
Most of the highschool books needed for the lessons were a boring slog and people just refused to read them. Sadly there were a couple of hidden gems in the program, but the shit books turned everyone off of reading.
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>>493985705
I think it's this:
https://vndb.org/v7738

It's finally getting an English release literally the next month.
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>>493985871
BEEEEEESHEEEEEE
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>>493982325
Dialogues and inner monologues are the most interesting parts of reading, regardless of medium.
Actions and descriptions always feel like a waste of time.

>>493959495
>This is the single hardest part to do well when writing a VN, and the one that sets them apart from other storytelling media most clearly. I have never seen a VN that does branching/interactivity in a way that'd satisfy me. Notable is that western video games have handled interactivity much better, with western RPGs allowing for a variety of choices that organically branch out in different consequences.
I strongly disagree with this one.

Few but important choice [branching pacts] >>> Countless meaningless choice that plague RPG, that are just a poor disguise for a very linear plot. Some changed ending slides doesn't cut it.
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>>493985870
>>493986014
>>493986063

Thanks, thats the one. Can't wait for the english release, it's been long enough.
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>>493986019
If you don't like to read, don't play visual novels. Why complain about the length of a story? Are you only interested in the satisfaction of finishing fast and moving on?
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>>493985321
What? light novels have no audio content and nowhere near the visual content of VNs
the 2. point is a major advantage (while still getting some visual/audio content unlike pure text book) but unfortunately for some bizarre reason it's wasted as explained in the second point in the OP on completely redundant garbage. Unlike some I don't consider the SoL content worthless by itself, but rather how essentially the same things are repeated over and over again (like Takeru does in his inner monologue about various "life lessons" he has learned in Muv-Luv alternative) or totally irrelevant garbage about how blue the sky is and whatnot.
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>>493984118
Honestly, a lot of the hints are there, especially once you play Meakashi fuck the anime and fuck secondaries and it really confirms a lot of suspicions of a savvy reader while exploring a lot of the hints that earlier chapters laid down.
I honestly had a hard time with some of the red herrings, Ooishi was a great red herring and even when you know Miyo is super suspicious, you simply can't not side eye his actions.
>>493984731
I see why you're annoyed with the concept but there wasn't much else to do outside of intentional induction of disorders. For example, in Onikakushi, Keiichi's sadness at killing Rena and Mion doesn't gel well if he was right about their malicious intentions. And the Tatarigoroshi incident with Satoko in the bathtub, it's very different from say the assumption he has about Mion in early Watanagashi, because he is the one person more than anyone to be aware Teppei is deceased, and Satoko should more than be aware of him being missing at the least the moment 3 days pass and he nor his friends are tormenting her.
>>493984809
I actually had an easier time with Umineko, since from the beginning I was analyzing the fantasy scenes from a "hidden motive" pov. I was expecting something real different from the "true" culprit reveal however. Rudolf is a bit too flat of a character and Kyrie is explored way too late.
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>>493959495
I feel like the logical conclusion here is that you should just play point-and-click games instead of VNs.
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>>493986447
But what if, since this is /v/, people want to play visual novels for the gameplay?
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How is it, VN companies that pushed the medium and even had popular titles still end up bankrupt or fall apart after the fact but the same shit companies are still around and way more successful?
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>>493986176
>Dialogues and inner monologues are the most interesting parts of reading, regardless of medium.
And those are present in books and games too. The problem is that VN struggle to have anything resembling an active plot
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>>493986656
I won't fall for the recommendation b8, nice try
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>>493986656
reading is part of the gameplay
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>>493986654
Why can't VNs also have point and click elements? Not all VNs are kinetic.
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>>493986470
No one reads VNs for the visual component and very rarely do people read for the audio. Most voice acting and music in VNs is garbage. People read VNs generally because they want a very long anime style story with sex. But nowadays light novels and web novels do the same thing.
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>this thread
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>>493962904
Any VN examples of flukes?
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>>493986628
Kyrie was very obviously the murderer from minute one. I immediately thought she did it as soon as she was introduced. The only reason everyone stopped thinking it was her was because of all the retarded yasu shit that was shoved on us though that ended up being a red herring.
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>>493986654
I've been putting in a good word for text adventures, but that's probably too much interactivity for /v/.
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>>493986838
Why do they have to? They're not games.
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>>493985809
>requires a lot more work

1. Write a story
2. Go in google images and look up photos of your setting (school, streets, homes) based in japan.
3. Put images in photoshop and add a filter to make them look drawn (Great, that's our backgrounds done!)
4. Go to royalty free music library and get a mix of classic and chiptune music.
5. Draw 3 different poses for your 8 - 10 character cast, and then a few H scenes if that's your style. Get a friend to do it if you're so artistically inept.
6. Shove it altogether in an existing VN engine.

It's funny when I read a VN and the first few background shots I see are straight from google images (+ the photoshop filters).
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>>493986712
Because even though people like to shit on businessmen and investors and shit because "waaah they don't even play videogames!!!" the plain and simple fact is passion and innovation alone doesn't run a company, good business dealings do.
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>>493985453
https://vndb.org/u12472
Stfu I played more VNs than you and know what I am talking about.
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>>493986838
Because then they would be point and click games, not VNs.
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>>493968254
Rikako is pure and very cute!
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>>493986712
It's almost like VN readers don't want any of that. That's why the more experimental ones had to basically be 1/5 that experimentation and 4/5 dating sim/porn
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>>493986656
That's what we call being a mongoloid.
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>>493987171
The Japanese usually use very specialize engines in their VNs for added effects
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>>493986447
See
>>493984575
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>>493986656
I'd say they're about as retarded as people who play Tetris for the plot.
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Is Rance a VN or game?
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>>493959495
>word diarrhea
Never understand this meme critic.

VN does this because it always incorporates slice of life storytelling.
Its pacing can be as slow as possible because characters carry the whole thing.
If you like the girls, you would want to see everything about them, even if it has nothing to do with the main plot, like going to amusement park, festival, aquarium or anywhere really.

>forgettable dialogue or templated events
It mostly depends on how much you like the girl/route.

>Get rid of the dependence on genre conventions
>killing VNs
You should leave the VN subculture desu.

>be VN readers
>have fun reading stories about dating cute 2D girls
>want to write your own VN about dating cute 2D girls
>create new VN
This is how VN ecosystem works.

If the authors don't care about "genre conventions," why the fuck would they go for this medium?
VN is all about reading while watching cute 2D pics.
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>>493987503
See
>>493986447
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>>493987698
a game with VN segments (which are arguably the main draw, since Rance's gameplay is very shallow)
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>>493987484
Programming a VN engine is extremely easy. I have very little knowledge of programming and could easily do it in a month. There's only any difficulty if it has actual gameplay.
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>>493986447
Reading what? I hate actual novels and shit but read tons of manga, comics and VNs.
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The only thing I agree with is the heavy reliance on tropes. It's like the writers are shot on sight for ever recommending having something other than a high school setting and you get the same 12 or so personalities recycled over and over. Anime is exactly the same though so it might just be an issue with the demographic.

There is stuff that breaks the tropes though and they are worth reading.
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VNs need to allow more interaction from the player like older Japanese adventure games did. I don't mean "more choices" but break up every paragraph with a "now what?" moment so the player still feels empowered.
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>>493987970
Then why was RUGP such an ass for people to figure out?
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>>493987068
>people are still this mad about the cleaners
The problem was never Kyrie and Rudolf being murderers, the problem was always it sucked from a story perspective because they sucked when they didn't need to, many looked away from them for the same reasons other looked away from shannon entirely instead of shannon as a set piece. Look at the previous work for example, as Takano's motivations aren't nearly as flat for what she does. No one really is for their bullshit, even most of the Umineko cast. Krauss has some of the least lines but is fairly understandable. And he doesn't require a bunch of after the fact theories like her, and Genji who frankly is way way worse for how important he is. I'm not saying his works are super masterpieces, but they were never just "here's a bunch of fodder text while you figure out whodunit to point and laugh at your friends", there were always themes that were useful to think about, and a decent bit of fleshing out of the cast, even if some characters are annoying.
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I'm sorry, but I just want a VN to give me tons of choices and branching routes
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>>493988131
Either the choices have to be meaningless or you are asking for 10x more work.
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>>493988049
>I hate actual novels and shit but read tons of manga, comics and VNs.
Haha. What a brainlet retard.
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>>493959495
4. Not enough lolis
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Read a book instead. VNs are inherently coomerbait with an absurd amount of fanservice. There are only a few exceptions.
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Any Japanese made VNs where the main character is an actual nigga?
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>>493988284
The choices will be blended in to the interaction. Spend a lot of time looking around a room, well, now you missed a certain event from another perspective that would put you down another route. Fucking hell, Deadline did this is 1982.
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>Japan and China hate each other
>Every single Chinese character in a shounen ends up being the coolest fucking character in the cast
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>>493988354
Stop being a paedo...
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>>493988236
Higurashi was a well written story with clearly defined themes, Umineko was not. Umineko was basically two different stories with entirely different and often conflicting themes stapled together. You had the traditional style mystery with the major theme of battler having to accept the truth of what happened his parents killing his familyeven though it's painful, and that was fairly interesting and entertaining. But you also had a second story, the romance of Battler and Yasu with the major theme being it's okay to ignore reality if it's uncomfortable. I personally really do buy into the theory people had that the authors friend was helping ghost write Umineko and when he died the author had no fucking clue what to do with the story.
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>>493987704
>Yes, I too also like to read an essay on how the sky, the colour of the girls skirt and the tree in the background looks and I love when the protagonist writes a paragraph on how he feels about every event in the story when he's intended as a self insert for me, how could you tell?
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>>493959495
I only skimmed your post but it comes off as the ravings of someone who has only played two visual novels.
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What's the vn in op? Cute girl
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I think the mistake most people make is that they think VNs are like literature but they're more like more long form anime or light novels. They follow generally the same structure and have similar characters/styles. The main difference is that VNs are much longer than anime etc and spend a lot more time world building and developing characters, and they are also more open to taking risks, so you generally get more interesting stories because they aren't as constrained by what would be allowed to air on an anime and are also cheaper to develop.

Of course a lot of it is trash, but I don't agree it has anything like the same demographic or fills the same niche as a traditional book would. It's as disingenuous as the people who try to compare books to story driven games, they don't have anything like the same audience or purpose at all.
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>>493988354
continue being a pedo
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>>493988928
It's literally in the file name.
Grisaia no Kajitsu
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>>493959495
I find it hard to believe that someone who complains about all the tropes in VNs and wants to break free from that not only continues to play that many VNs but also rates them so high, would have such normie-tier opinions. Honestly, >>493960291
said it best about the only somewhat fair point you had
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>>493989130
meant to quote
>>493987262
Also he forgot to mention Trace Memory and its sequel for the Wii
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>>493959495
Only virgin nerds play visual novels

There I said it
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>>493988381
Books don't have cute girls. That's my main problem with books. They hate cute romance and cute girls.
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>>493988945
LNs are more tightly paced and have more variety if you japanese.
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>>493988785
>he's intended as a self insert for me
Yet he talks in the first person ("my dick") rather than the second person ("your dick). That's right, you spend hours with the girl you like most and your reward is the main character separate from you getting to fuck her.
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>>493989656
Cuck detected. Why would your internal dialogue describe someone else's dick going into your waifu by saying "your dick" if when you self-insert you're supposed to be the MC
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>>493959495
>Playing VNs
Hahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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>>493959907
This. I discard any opinion no matter how sound if they're a faggot.
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>>493989656
if he was a self insert why the fuck would he be talking in the second person?
what the hell
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>>493987704
>VN does this because it always incorporates slice of life storytelling.
No, it does it because VN writers get paid by the kilobyte.
>get paid between ¥500-2000 per kilobyte of text
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>>493987262
>https://vndb.org/u12472
>Dies irae, 9.8
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>>493989442
Stunning and brave.
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>>493988494
>>493988284
>Ugh! You can't do that, it would be too hard.
>It was one 38 years ago.
>*silence*
>>
There's a person I know who is constantly, CONSTANTLY, shilling Fate Stay Night.
Is it actually any good?
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>>493959495
>VNs, such as they are, don't actualize the immense potential of the medium
I agree.
I WANT A VN TO MINDFUCK ME AS HARD AS ever17 DID
WHY CAN'T I FIND THIS
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK
>>
>>493959495

What's the purpose of your post? Are you looking to create a VN that utilizes the potential of the medium? Or are you interested in what people have to say? Or do you want to express your idea for the purpose of fleshing it out/refining it?
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>>493990993
Yes, get the patch from Beast's Lair for Realta Nua and enjoy the ride.
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>>493990993
It's typical chuuni shounen battle manga kind of stuff. If you like stuff like dragon ball z or Naruto you would probably enjoy it.
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>>493978241
That's brilliant
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>>493986447
To be honest, Root Double is especially guilty of having megabytes of unnecessary text.
>inb4 that one anon comes in and says that it was exactly the point it was trying to make
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>>493990993
It's okay, not my cup of tea, though I can see how people like it. I fucking despise the mc and the weird ass fascination with cooking this vn has, but it was entertaining enough to grab my attention.
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No one is going to point the elephant in the room?
The reason a lot of VNs are bloated with filler is because they cost a shit ton to buy and companies have to make your money's worth out of them.
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>>493992438
By that logic, having filler makes them more valuable. But filler by definition is worthless.
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>>493992438
>companies have to make your money's worth out of them
Then creators should make more actual content instead of padding out shit like hacks.
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>>493992438
This. Even here you see this sentiment
>X dollars for an Y hour VN? No way
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>>493992696
>But filler by definition is worthless.
if your time is worthless then sure
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>>493992438
Maybe there can be other ways of giving length to the game? You know, like puzzles? Like adventure games?
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>>493959495
I want to fuck michiru in the butt
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>>493992438
>bloated filler
>pic related is saya no uta
you absolute brainless retard
and if you are trolling, congrats, you got called a retard as you wanted
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>>493993190
>I'll add a sliding puzzle that unlocks the pages of the 2nd half of my book so people get more value out of my story!
>>
>>493993698
Many VNs have stories involving investigation. Make the progression tied to solving a particular part of the investigation first. Like getting into Gibson's house in Snatcher needs you to learn more about him and his daughter first, leading you to other parts of the game world, getting more background story, and also reminding you there's a super computer with a load of information about the world.
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>>493993286
She's only 14 dude, wtf is wrong with you.
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>>493994037
That's the kind of 'puzzle' I like, that's one of the reasons why snatcher was so good. But it's also okay for a story not to contain investigation, just telling the story as it is too. More value can be added through alternative routes and written filler that expand the story's world. I really want more detective adventure games though, we are sorely missing them right now. We did just get AI: The Somnium Files, so I should play that
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>>493971910
Despite Muv-Luv's length, it was actually really good about that (Yuuko's expositional science talk aside).
Instead of long-winded prose and descriptions, most if not all the text is either dialogue or Takeru's inner monologue. Everything else is shown through sound, graphics, and animation; which, in my opinion, is how a visual novel should be. Why have a bunch of images and sprites if you're going to use wordswordswords anyway to describe what's going on?
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>>493987171
people like >>493995494 is exactly why they normally can't do they
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>>493981689
>but at the 7-8th chapters everything was pretty clear
How many hundreds of hours is that?
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>>493996737
Fuck if I know. I don't autistically count the time I spend on a game unless I drop it.
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>>493964180
Cry. More.
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>>493962323
>but neither are they anime, or LNs, or Manga.
They're digital choose your own adventure books.
>>
Just stop treating VNs like they're games. A lot of people's issues with them are solved when VNs are treated as a storytelling medium akin to anime and manga instead of something expected to have gameplay.
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>>493997416
Yeah, they'd admit this, but good luck getting them off /v/.
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>>493959495
>. I have never seen a VN that does branching/interactivity in a way that'd satisfy me
Nigga what? This is what EVERY VN does well...you are LITERALLY describing the routes system. Every VN has multiple routes ranging from 5-20 hours long, each of these routes is unique too. Different love interests, themes, plot, starring characters etc. Furthermore, rach route has a true end and a normal end, in addition to several divergent bad ends.
Look at F/SN for example, UBW and HF are two entirely different stories
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>>493997397
>They're digital choose your own adventure books
I always see this brought up but no one ever mentions that choose your own adventure books are also gamebooks
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>>493996858
Not the point. Obviously if you spend hundreds and hundreds of hours over the course of several years reading a fucking visual novel and still only see it as "pretty clear" it has to be some kind of dense material. You could spend less time analyzing Being and Time than that. Or the bible.
I swear I'm going to get into Umineko some time just because of how insane it sounds. I'm just not sure I have enough amphetamines.
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>>493997672
You're the real dumb nigga. Fucking weebs I swear.
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>>493997672
"Which path: A or B" is not branching done well, and it's definitely not interactivity done well.
See what I said: >>493988131 >>493988494
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>>493997672
>This is what EVERY VN does
Straight up untrue.
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>>493997638
You can suck my dick while crying, faggot.
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>>493998140
lol imagine wanting to come across as a man while defending VNs. One or the other, cutie-pie.
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>>493997817
I hate this site. It's so filled with limp dicked imverysmart retards.
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>>493998131
Excluding the kinetic VNs, and Nukiges, its true
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>>493997817
It takes hundreds of hours to simply finish Umineko, it's not that deep once you finish it, it's just a slog the entire way through.
>>
>>493998428
>if I exclude everything that disproves a statement then it's true
Color me fucking surprised.
>>
Worst thread of 2020. So many fucking ADHD retarded children. I want redditors that think DDLC makes them experts in VNs to fucking drown in a puddle of semen.
>>
>>493998395
All I hear is slurping noises, you triple homosexual. Did you cry to the jannies already and even them told you to fuck off to facebook?
>>
>>493997817
It's a journey man, good luck trying to make sense out of it before the game explains it. I certainly couldn't.
>>
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>>493998428
>every VN has branching paths except the ones that don't
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>>493998582
>if you don't think hitting space for hundreds of hours is the mark of the good game then you have ADHD
If I want a story with minimal interaction, then I might as well just forgo the interaction and read a book. If I want a story with interaction, there needs to be interaction. I've spent the thread bringing up games that do this and this is all apparently too hard for people that make/play VNs (which is an argument in itself).
>>
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>>493992789
westerners just don't seem to like the idea of paying much more than like $10 for vns in general, especially here, god forbid something like baldr sky comes out and asks for $50 for 2 50+ hour long games
>>
>>493998796
>All I hear is slurping noises
Then mute the gay porn you're watching. What's wrong with you? "I know what will make me look great, saying I want to be a faggot with a guy online." Sort yourself out.
>>
>>493998064
It IS Choice. Look at how the VN is setup.

Choice 1: Does Saber injure Archer.
Yes = Fate, No = UBW, HF
Choice 2: Does Shirou Try to withdraw from the war
Yes = Saber kills him (bad end), No = He lives
Variant 2 of Choice 2:
Yes = Illya tortures him(bad end), No = He lives
Choice 3: Does Shirou pay attention to Sakura
Yes = HF, No = Yes
Choice 4 = Does Shirou let Saber fight Herc without helping her
Yes = She dies (bad end), No = She lives
Skipping ahead from several minor choices and bad ends
Choice 5: Will Shirou kill Sakura
Yes = He follows the path of his father (bad end), No = Shirou becomes her lover
Choice 6: Does Shirou persuade Rider to help him
Yes = He and Rider overwhelm Saber, Rin beats Sakura but cannot kill her No = He fights Saber solo, and dies in a stalemate. Rin surcombs to Sakura and is tortured to death.
Choice 7: Does Illya trust Shirou
Yes = She will come and sacrifice herself so that Shirou doesn't have to die, No = Shirou dies destroying the HG.

I skipped dozens of choices and bad ends, but this was the basic layout for ONE route. Thats already more divergence and choice then shit like the walking dead or heavy rain
>>
>>493999006
Recommend me some fucking books then holy shit fucking faggots in here god damn.
>>
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>slurping noises
okay, real talk now: Do you guys like it when eroge have sex / fellatio etc. sounds?
>>
>>493999053
I've paid more for shorter games. The issue with VNs is one of value over time. If you had more genuine interactivity then charging £10 wouldn't be a problem.
>>
>>493962218
>complain about visual NOVELS having back story and dialogue
Sure, there can be awkward writing, but it sounds to me that you just want a puzzle game. Go play professor layton like that one Anon said.
>>
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>>493994317
>>
>>493999261
>It is choice
>Bad end
You will die from a car accident today. I am god and you have made me angry for the last time retard.
>>
>>493999053
it's funny because in japan even the most mediocre nukgies sell for over $60
>>
>>493999129
Thanks for conceding, homosex. By the way, cry harder, VN theads are still considered videogames despite all your gay butthurt.
>>
>>493999053
>But Katawa Shoujo and Doki Doki Literature Club were free and they're the best VNs ever! Why does this game cost so much???
I kinda suffer with you diehard VN fans. I play a lot of shoot em ups and people have pricing issues with that genre as well.
>>
>>493959495
I agree with pretty much all of those points, but it really just comes down to whether the VN has good writing or not because they're essentially just novels given a visual dimension, like comics, movies, etc. Also, I don't think VNs are going to "grow up" considering they strip a game of all of its gameplay elements in order to just tell a story with many of them about high school romances. I'm not complaining about that because there are still plenty that tell other, much more interesting stories, but I don't see VNs changing anytime soon. I would love to see more choices and branching paths in these games, however.
>>
You guys excited for the western adaption of Steins Gay?

https://twitter.com/DistantValhalla/status/1221383525070405632
>>
>>493999261
Choices are not interaction. It's just a switch on a railway. Play an old text adventure for 10 minutes and you'll see what I mean. It's so hard to talk to you because you seem to not even know what interaction is in the first place. Being presented with a menu along a track is not what I am talking about. What if there were no choices? What if all of that is based on what you say to who, where you are at particular times to even say things in the first place?

>>493999318
What kind of stories would you like? If you want something short then check out Kim by Rudyard Kipling.
>>
>>493999006
You fucking retard.
>>
>>493999889
oh no
>>
>>493999889
holy shit
>>
>>493997812
He seemed to be trying to classify VNs as if nothing similar to them were done before, so I just wanted to point it out. If video games are digital games, and VNs are digital "choose your own adventure books", and those books are considered games, then VNs are video games. But adventure books are books, so VNs could be more related to LNs/Manga. It's up to whether the "game" aspect of them is significant or not.

If there was a print "choose your own adventure" manga, would that be /a/-related or /v/-related? If that manga was released in pdf format, is it suddenly /v/-related? If it then got some QoL improvements so you would automatically go to a certain page depending on what you choose, would it become /v/-related? What if the "page" you need to go to was a complicated algorithm based on all previous choices, is it now more /v/-related?
>>
>>493999889
my disgust knows no limits
>>
>>493999889
I believed it was impossible for Reddits Gate to become any more cancerous.
>>
>>493999889
Can't really be any worse and the story already has cornball young adult drama written all over it.
>>
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>>493999889
>>
>>493978241
Thanks. I hated C;C, but never really understood why.
>>
>>493999972
A menu of choices is not interaction. If you skip someone's dialogue because you don't like them you can still get a good relationship with them by selecting the right option in the menu. What if the game knew you didn't like them (because you barely spoke to them) and didn't give you an option at all? Chris Crawford was doing this on Commodore 64s.
>>
>>493999712
You fucking retard the bad ends can go on for 15-40 minutes with fake choices to make you not even realize that you fucked up.
Femme Fatale - 15 minutes: https://youtu.be/1cJQQimYXW0
Spark Liner High - 31 minutes: https://youtu.be/znmECWz-8MI
Forest of no return - 21 minutez: https://youtu.be/2xO8CqOCe1A
Missing Adriane 13 minutes - https://youtu.be/sHiqkRraTYU
I could go on and on
>>
I have only played Katawa Shoujo and Summertime Saga and I want to coom. What should I play next?
>>
>>493999909
From what little I remember about old text adventures, they were even more linear, just with a bunch of puzzles blocking the track. Guess the right combination of words to input to advance on the track. In one way it's more interactive, as typing out commands is a lot more involved than choosing yes/no from a dialog box, VN style. In other ways, it's less interactive, as all you're doing is unlock the next story bit, while having zero agency on the outcome of that story.

Or I might be thinking of lucasarts adventure games that ran on text parsers, not actual text adventures. Either or. Not quite sure. I probably sohuld head to bed instead of arguing on the internets.
>>
>>494000069
Or to put it another way, are HTML CYOA stories video games?
>>
>>493999909
>Choices are not interaction.
No a choice is a decision.
Visual Novels give you a host of decisions that lead to either a true end or a normal/bad, who the love intetest is, and whether you'll get a bad ending or not.
In Fate for example, there are over 50+ bad ends each of which are explicity explored and entirely optional depending on the choices you made. Furthermore, each route had a true end and a normal end. Furthemore, you are frequently given minor choices that allow you to interact with the character, eacg dialouge choicd bringing about an entitrly different interaction with the characters.
All of what I listed above is CHOICE. You don't get the right to redefine words so that you can shit on VNs.
>>
>>493999889
Man, that is gonna be hot shit. VN's rarely adapt well as an anime, but a full on live action tv series? I'm gonna pass on that one.
>watching a grown man act like chunnibyu okabe
>watching a grown woman act like an airhead as mayuri
Cringe.
>>
>>494000370
When I called you a fucking retard it was because you are too stupid to be reasoned with. Stop replying to me.
>>
>>494000724
Euphoria or Starless
>>
>>493959495
>2. Stop with the word diarrhea
That is the translators fault
>>
>>494000891
>>watching a grown man act like chunnibyu okabe
He's gonna be a mad scientist like Doc Brown!
>>
>>494000732
A lot of old text adventures only have one ending, but that's mostly due to the fact that we're talking about games designed to run on computers with 64KB of memory. A lot of the newer ones made since the move to hobbyist implementers have multiple endings.
>>
>>493960565
>Generic anime girl
>Wife
>>
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>>494000724
Wonderful Everyday
>>
>>494000891
>>watching a grown man act like chunnibyu okabe
>>watching a grown woman act like an airhead as mayuri
never watch a jdrama
>>
>>494000891
Why can't they use actors of the same age as the actual characters who are supposed to be in their early 20s I believe anyway?
>>
I enjoyed Maggot Baits. Am I a bad person?
>>
The literal only appeal of a VN is having an emotional connection with a girl you want to see get fucked. Shut the fuck up retard
>>
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>>493999889
What?
>>
>>493960291
Your Turn to Die is pretty good but it's not done yet
>>
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>>494001362
>The literal only appeal of a VN is having an emotional connection with a girl you want to see get fucked.
>>
>>494001362
Chunni, Nakige, Horror, and Plotge are three genres WITHOUT an emphasis on romance
>>
>>493994317
yeah but she has the tooth fang so she can withstand it
>>
>>494001362
There are VNs with no romance/sex at all
>>
Oh hey, are we having a Beepzorz thread? Why wasn't I told? You can tell it's him (or someone impersonating him) by the 'unique' style or argumentation. Here's how it goes:
>hey this thing is bad and [japanese thing] always does this, unlike [rough western equivalent]
>you're wrong though: [examples]
>they don't count because they're not [very specific thing far more restrained than the earlier statement]
Repeat ad nauseum.
>>
>428 replies
Why haven't you played 428 Shibuya Scramble, anons?
>>
VNs are bodice-ripping romance novels but for men, but with even less testosterone.
>>
>>494002865
>with even less testosterone
You seem to be lacking it if it bothers you so much.
>>
>>494000724
Bible Black
not joking, it's fucking great
>>
>>494001128
>>494000732
The Dreamhold has multiple endings based on gameplay and also doubles as a tutorial in how to play text adventures in the first place.

But for the queen of this check out the work of Emily Short.
>>
>>494001853
And they are shit, retard.

>>494001747
And they are shit.
>>
>>493993303
Saya will never be real, I'm sorry.
>>
>>494001949
i have it was amazing
>>
>>494004190
>Saya will never be real, I'm sorry.
I hope so. I would hate to deplete this splendid liquid nitrogen I got here next to me.
>>
>>494001949
it's on my backlog
>>
Is there any reason to get into VNs as someone who doesn't find them intrinsically appealing?
>>
>>494000397
Keep going you dumb fucking fate autist.
>>494004769
Then don't?
>>
>>494004769
why do you want to get into something you have no interest in?
>>
>weh weh gimme more amazing vns with constant branching paths and high interactivity
>they make one
>you dont buy it
surprisedpikachuface.flac
>>
>>494004975
It's like when people complain there are no female videogame protagonists
>>
play a real game faggot
>>
>>493961718
>there are no easy or hard puzzle games because there's no big plays
>>
>>494004769
no
vns are just power fantasies for weebs, picture books for manchildren
>>
>>493986447
Editing is a thing, you know. Having long, uninteresting passages that aren’t necessary and exist just to pad out length isn’t good writing
>>
>>493971738
for me it picked up after the common route. the character routes were more interesting.
>>
>>494001359
True love story romantic comedies are generally enjoyed by many people so no?
Reminder MOOOO
>>
why do people say that utawaremuno is good? the characters are shit, everybody just immediately loves the shitty protagonist for no reason, the h scenes are embarrassingly bad, the combat is basic as fuck to the point where you wonder why it's even there and the supposedly amazing worldbuilding is shit too
was it just another example of a game/vn that faggots overhype just cause it wasnt in english?
>>
>>494005671
the common route is literally the best part of grisaia
>>
>>494005882
Oh I remember..
I just wished there would had been more Sandy.
>>
>>493999652
>All ages
What a waste
>>
>>494005998
>loves the shitty protagonist for no reason
You didn't understood the story. There was a genetic reason.
>>
>>493986887
Who the fuck was this dumb futa and what the fuck was her problem!?
>>
>>494006464
Shit reason
>>
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>>493959495
Read The Silver Case. Satisfies all your requirements and tells a god tier story
>>
>>494005998
>was it just another example of a game/vn that faggots overhype just cause it wasnt in english?
it's been in english for years retard
>>
>>494006773
it was a different time
>>
>>494006773
>>
>>494006773
Shut the fuck up suda, no one cares about your mediocre games
>>
>>494007304
seethe suda is based
>>
>>494006902
This VN good?
>>
>>493974883
His books are boring, his worldcrafting is terrible, and he constantly tells instead of shows.

He does BTFO all VNs from the last decade, but that's a low bar to set and you should be ashamed of yourself for enjoying his work.
>>
>>494008843
it's a classic
the intro alone is amazing and unforgettable.
>>
>>494009471
Are they naked under their robes?
>>
>>494007304
Travis in Smash soon cope and have sex
>>
>>494006902
>>494009471
Isn't Bible Black just a shitty Starless? The anime was good though.
>>
DDLC is unironically good. Fite me faggots. /ddlc/ though is pretty trash.
>>
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>>494001362
okay coomer
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>>494010670
the VN is easily better than the OVA, which just mixes up the routes without rhyme or reason
I haven't played Starless yet, but BB wins already in my opinion because there's no
>scat
>>
>>494010670
>Isn't Bible Black just a shitty Starless?
Isnt it the exact opposite?
>>
>>493959934
Cliches are not inherently bad, and can be very useful as a base to be added upon, and when done right can really spark an air of romance. But yes, everyone trying to be more clever than they are in always subverting them is even more annoying to me than the most generic cliche.
>>
>>493959495
t. EOP
>>
>>494001857
>Beepzorz
holy fuck, that faggot's still around? I thought the way he claimed WRPGs did it better in the OP sounded familliar.
For anyone who doesn't know about this guy's autism:
https://yuki.la/v/477868950#p477869464
>>
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>>494014630
What game please?
>>
>>493959495
VNs need to stop trying to pretend to be games. You're never going to be able to attract people who want a game with a VN. They need to attract people who want a book. They may have choices, music, and visuals, but they are novels first and foremost. I don't know why they seem to forget that when it comes to how they're marketed.
>>
>>494015079
https://vndb.org/v31
>>
>>494004769
Currently, if you're not into animu? No. Absolutely not.
But anyone who handwaves away the potential VNs have hasn't given them anywhere near enough credit and likely just has a problem with the weebness and porn. At the end of the day, they're books with perks and they're just about the only medium where a real CYOA can work.
>>
wait so Y'all actually play VN? cringe
>>
>>494005998
Aside from the pron clearly being shoehorned in just for the sake of it, I enjoyed it. I haven't read it in ages though so I don't know if that opinion would hold up.
>>
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>>493960291
These aren't really straight VNs though, at least not in the way the OP is probably imagining it. They're games that take VN staples and themes and adapt them and adopt a QA and editing process that makes sure they avoid shit like verbiage and word salad. Chief among these I'd call out are Ace Attorney and Hotel Dusk.

I think OP is referring more to the sort of utter rehashed garbage (Fate VNs for example) that anisphere twitter girls like Johanna from CT, or fat, sweat, Stallmanite filth from /jp/ like.
>>
>>493977286
Theres only 2 situations in the entire game that might fuck you over. Takeda rushing you ass and when realm divide happens. Otherwise Rance is fairly easy.
>>
>>494016235
>Assuming other VNs do not have editing and QA.
>all the word salad that translates to a hatred of 'weebs'
retard
>>
>>494017280
>>Assuming other VNs do not have editing and QA.

I played FSN _years_ ago. Back when it was popular on /jp/. Guess what? It has some of the worst pacing in any written work or narrative I've ever encountered. There are works of fan fiction that have probably been proofread for spelling and grammar primarily by a guy's friend ONCE that have better pacing.

It's astonishing how every single VN (Umineko, Higurashi, Ever 17, SnU etc, has exactly the same issue. It's almost like VN "developers" can't write for shit or something and have no proper editing process.

Then again, VN fans also play gacha games so there's no accounting for taste.
>>
>>493999889
literally not a single fucking soul asked for this
>>
>>494017612
>>494016235
im glad you can feel so superior to people who like things you don't

stupid nigger
>>
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>>493999889
i'll watch it if this happens
>>
>>494017612
>SnU
oh no. It's retarded
>>
>>493996948
No you.
>>
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>Try to download game
>Sources lead to Fakku
20 fucking dollars? Fuck that.
>>
>>493959495
Read subahibi
>>
>>494017612
SnU does not deserve to be lumped in here. It's 4 hours long at most and the narrative moves along at a good clip.
>>
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>>494019164
>buying VN
>>
>>493959495
I've just listened to 2 minutes of a girl choking my dick
and i think VNs are cringe

I never played something like this before, i got the one im playing from an anon here
i think its called 1room?
>>
>>494019195
i do. lately, i also do things like humping furniture and plush dolls. subahibi did this to me.
>>
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>>494019532
>not buying kinoge
>>
>>494021280
>kinoge
>>
>>494021465
yes
>>
>>494021903
>subahibi shitters are dumb
every time
>>
>>494022048
brainlet filtered
>>
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qut ??? for last
>>
I want to SEXUALLY FUCK Aruuruu
>>
>>494023416
>aged up Aruru
For what purpose



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