So in all these reviews of FATAL I hear it called stuff like "The Date Rape RPG without the Dating" and "rape simulation" so I came in with high expectations that this could cover the mechanics of something that games simply don't touch. Consensual sex gets addressed in fan works like Book of Erotic Arts for D20 or the "GURPS Sex" manual, but neither touch rape. Which is silly because if anything can be hand-waived into "just co-operatively describe this with flavor text" it's consensual things. Rules are designed for resolving differences in intent and with all the rules we have for assault (even if grappling is often a more confusing issue than striking) having ones for sexual assault would make sense. "Rape is not intended to be a core element of F.A.T.A.L." on page 7 is completely accurate here. If it were actually a core element it would actually have some decent rules. For all the focus on the rape-y atmosphere of the game, it feels like reviewers really have not focused on just how little exploration the act has. So little that it is incredibly disappointing. In 2000 the rules appear on page 342 of "Fantasy Adventure To Adult Lechery" In 2004 the rules appear on page 398 "From Another Time, Another Land". In either case they are easily found searching "Rape roll", a term which occurs 5 times in 1 paragraph and a 6th time in the one after. All these fall under a skill called "Overbearing", a Wrestling skill which is basically pinning a foe who's been taken down or otherwise on the ground. Although Overbear is essentially number 12 and Brawling 13, Rape is essentially a whole other ability which occurs only after a successful overbear, so I guess you could call it 12.5
So basically, you make a roll and have to beat a 'Weight Difference' check. Which makes no sense to me because if you have 2 targets each 300lbs, it should be harder to grapple the one who is 10% bodyfat than the one who is 50% bodyfat, more muscle more force. A stronger target could buck you off or pull you off more effectively. Passing an intimidation check doubles the weight difference you roll against, fair enough. Someone who feels defeated and overwhelmed wouldn't be able to struggle as hard since they would lack confidence. The "weight difference" you roll against refers to Overbearing, which doesn't even allow the maneuver to happen unless the top target weighs more than the bottom target. This effectively means that a 200 pound man cannot rape a 200 pound woman in FATAL, she has to be 199 or below. Aside from the difference-doubling from intimidation, there's penalties for either party wearing clothing... and that's it. Nothing for strength, perception, agility...
>>46164372>having high expectations>of any kind>for FATALHow could you possibly go so far wrong?
>>46164372>If it were actually a core element it would actually have some decent rules.Counterargument: NONE of the rules in FATAL are decent or even approaching "usable," so what is and isn't the core focus has to be taken relatively.And relatively, the rape rules are the core focus, in that their rules function at all, handily dominate other sub-systems like combat.
Your first mistake was even attempting to understand FATAL. Even if you succeed, your life is worse for it.
Also there's completely random results which don't make any sense, they aren't influenced by attributes at all Failed rape roll after successful overbear: VARIABLE A: 40% chance the rape succeeded anyway but then the victim escaped, 60% chance you escaped without any rape VARIABLE B: 40% chance damage to ponos, 40% chance damage to balls, 20% no injury to attacker. So what, no injury to the face possibility? No on-going struggle rules to escape each turn? No rules for the attacker or target having immobilized limbs? Blind attackers or low lighting? Genital location lore? I mean... THIS is the so-called rape RPG? Rape is a pathetic afterthought here, critics seem to just want to sensationalize FATAL and pick on it and bully the author. This does not deserve the title Rape RPG for how little it got explored. As someone who likes complex mechanics for everything I was sorely disappointed here. For all the focus on 'Anal Circumference' and 'Hymen Resistance' this RPG gets, very little seems to actually be done with these things. They don't appear to actually factor into any rape calculations. They mostly seem like pointless flavoring. Are there any sources out there which actually deserve to be called the most extensive address that rape has gotten? This doesn't seem to be it.
>>46164420I once decided to read the rule book for FATAL for a laugh and expected some really pervy non-con rpg rule book. Instead what I got was pages after pages of stupidly convoluted rules for professions. I swear 2/3 of the book is nothing but a list of professions and how little they get paid. And not even porno style jobs either, things like candle maker and carpenter.
>>46164534please continue>>46164553fuck you
>>46164415I only had 1 singular expectation of it, based on reviews.The reviews made it sound like this actually got focus, but it didn't.It was supposed to be the one redeeming feature... and it was MISREPORTED>>46164420How can it be the core focus when it only gets a singular role and only lets you rape things lighter than you and the only thing that makes it harder is clothes and a heavier target and your success is otherwise completely random, as is your chance at being injured and the chance of random success in spite of a failed roll?>>46164423I'm not trying to understand the whole system, just a singular aspect of it, and it is incredibly simple and easy to understand...This is basic research that the people criticizing the RPG should have done. If something is going to be a centrepiece of the RPG then it would have elaborate rules and this simply doesn't.I guess I'm asking "if not FATAL, then what?" if you actually wanted to play "GURPS Rape Gangs" instead of "GURPS Horse Clans" or something?
>>46164611>How can it be the core focus when it only gets a singular role and only lets you rape things lighter than you and the only thing that makes it harder is clothes and a heavier target and your success is otherwise completely random, as is your chance at being injured and the chance of random success in spite of a failed roll?Because absolutely everything else gets rules that are more unrealistic, more incomplete, more unusable, etc., etc., etc.That is the kind of standard we're dealing with: every other rule in FATAL is *less* thought-out than "a random roll with an unrelated end result."
>>46164611do you have any suggestion on how to make the rules for more realistic rape?
>>46164372>FATAL has shitty rules for everythingfixed
>>46164372OP, I'll be honest here. I'm still not sure if this thread will going to places or not but I'm optimist and give this to you.But only if you continue
>>46164660Just sign up for a BDSM club and specify non-con role play. At least then you're actually having sex with someone who's into the whole rape fetish scenario. You can even involve costumes and role playing different scenarios.
>>46164773that won't make my tabletop games more realistic
You should do this kind of analysis for Tournament of Rapists.
>If it were actually a core element it would actually have some decent rules.Apparently FATAL has no core gameplay elements whatsoever.
Don't forget that RAW, all rape is male-on-female, so it can't even simulate a burly amazon enjoying some forceful /ss/ with a helpless little boy.I'm honestly not sure whether that qualifies as extreme sexism or radical feminism.
>>46164830>I'm honestly not sure whether that qualifies as extreme sexism or radical feminism.Is there a difference?
>>46164830Basically any philosophical or political scale like that has the extreme ends curve off into pure stupidity.
>>46164818If this real?
>>46164651From what I've seen on a YouTube playthough this isn't true. Not to say the other rules are good, but they're certainly a lot more thorough.Just randomly looking through the book, check out page 352 of 2004's Another Time, the Haggling Skill. Haggling is given way more complex focus than Rape is.>>46164660Very vague idea: base it on existing grappling rules, actual good ones.I'd prefer GURPS, I know it has a Martial Arts supplement, but I haven't read much about Grappling.Some kind of 'Quick Contest' like any other kind of grappling progression.Unlike FATAL, I don't think you should HAVE to pin someone to rape them, but that should give huge bonuses if you have done so.Basically 'hole aiming' should be a factor in any sex, combative or not. You should get a bonus if the receiving orifice is immobile, which is why pinning ankles or entangling thighs would get a bonus.You should also get a bonus if you can hold with 1 hand to aim yourself, reflecting why some might transition from a "2 hands pin 2 hands" hold to a "2 hands hold 1 hand" (which would require more ST to maintain)Visual contact and a lack of pain penalties would also be an asset in aiming. Flailing arms would impede line-of-sight, getting punched in the mouth would impede focus (GURPS has 'stun' penalties already) getting raked in the eyes would do both.>>46164739since you have me thinking of wizards, would point out that some kind of entangling vine spell or summonable minion could serve the role of pinning a limb to free a wizard's hands to aim himself properly.Also based on leverage from distance of pivot and base of support I think someone with a shorter and/or thicker phallus would flop around less, so that should factor into the difficulty of un-directed thrusts.>>46164773Sorry but consensual roleplay doesn't appeal to the competitive spirit like dice-gaming does.Also, it's wrong of you to assume someone has a fetish for something they want to game with.
>>46164611>It was supposed to be the one redeeming feature>redeeming feature>redeeming>rape
>>46165023You forgot morale modifiers and intimidation
>>46165033a unique feature is a redeeming feature even if it is a feature about a thing which is horrifying in real lifeFor example what do you think the redeeming features of Palladium's Dead Reign or GURPS Zombies is supposed to be?
>>46165033For a shit game, yeah it sounds like a redeeming feature.
>>46165107What's horrifying about GURPS Zombies or Dead Reign?
>>46165023alright I know what we need here to make more realistic rape rules: First hand experience!So... Anyone here raped someone? This is the time to say it. We need data for our research and we are all anons here
Rolled 78 (1d100)>>46164372OH SHIT FATAL IS BACK?Rolling for you know what.
>>46165147I asked a pretty lady for a time today...Is this considered rape?
>>46165197I mean proper rape, not feminist rape. Genitals must be involved
>>46165147It's incredibly inconvenient to rape someone unless you get them to stop struggling unless you're so much stronger than them that they can't do shit, and even then it's annoying if the wriggle too much. This is why you usually either beat the victim until they get the hint, or threated to do so. Rape should essentially either be a grappling or intimidate roll.
>>46164611I'm sorry, you seem to be expecting competent design. From FATAL. It's like expecting neonazi world views to be created from actual reality. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're either naive or arguing a contrary point for no reason. That said FATAL is not a game about rape. It's a game obsessed with it and other stupid crap in a way that is shittily assembled.
>>46165244what about getting them intoxicated? that could work to isn't it?
>>46165234B...but i known the time before asking.So they were somewhat involved.
>>46165244Mind games should count. Like threatening to kill yourself unless they obey your every whim.
>>46165312Either a deception roll or Use:Chemistry
>>46165351I'm pretty sure a simple "I will kill myself if you won't have sex with me" is closer to pretending you have cancer to get pity sex than to rape
>>46165375It's more like coercion.It would probably be laughable as an attempt to fuck an acquaintance or stranger, but someone close to you who thinks (either from reality or your manipulation) that you're depressed and potentially suicidal?
>>46165418yes but you physically don't force yourself on them.It's a different category.Like, how it is different to get money from someone by pointing a gun on them or just doing some kind of scam that they should give you your money because you are nigerian prince
Isn't FATAL also the game where it's possible to start accidentally raping someone during combat
>>46165146The zombies, IRL they would actually be more horrifying, people are more upset by rape because it's not fantastical enough to detach from.>>46165147You do realize that rape victims could also give input on this, right?ITT only attackers can give input on combat because fuck input from parriers/dodgersAlso a lot of combat rules are speculative. Rules for hitting with thrown fireballs and such, for example.>>46165168far as I know the last FATAL book came out 12 years ago>>46165234not necessarily, trying to jam a broom into a pooper would also qualify>>46165244intimidate can serve the role of either eliminating resistance (going limp, no further contest needed, equivalent to mind control) or of hampering it, much like drugs could also do, either could be reflected as penalties to the attempt rolls>>46165287I came expecting this because of how people described the game. Why the hell would you call it a 'rape simulation RPG' when it has a shitty not-approaching-a-simulation-at-all set of rules for it?It's certainly naivety to believe that game reviewers are actually reviewing games instead of just generating clickbait.Perhaps gamergate can get around to investigating the corruption in games journalism as it applies to FATAL, embiggening it as some kind of rape RPG paragon when it actually gets it over in very little space and 1 roll with few modifiers.>>46165351that would have to do with charisma and social skillsthings like coercion and informed consent would not fall under all of this. That's a case of something which is moral rape but not actually rape mechanically in terms of 'physical skill contest'.This isn't supposed to be a giant treatise on what is and isn't rape IRL or in games, but an exploration of the traditional "one attempts, the other resists" kind of combat.If it were co-operative or unresisted it'd just fall under normal sex rules that already exist.>>46165504no, it's only rape if there's intent
>>46165471You're right you don't physically force yourself on them, but that isn't a requirement for something to be rape. It's more legally gray, but morally it's no different.
>>46165595depends on what kind of definition we use for rape. and as >>46165568 said right now we are talking more about the actual physical stuff in terms of skill checks and how should it work mechanically system-wise
>>46165504No. A guy ran a combat in it for fun a while back, and showed that you need to actually choose to start raping. You can accidentally invent a new wrestling move but you can't accidentally rape.
>>46164611>It was supposed to be the one redeeming feature... and it was MISREPORTEDSo what you're saying is that this isn't about rape, it's about ethics in tabletop journalism?
>>46165568>no, it's only rape if there's intentOkay, maybe I misspoke: I remember reading about a system where it's possible to start engaging in penetrative sex with an opponent of grappling combat by getting a certain hit on a failure table and I'm pretty sure that's FATAL.
Wasn't there a thread using the Fatal character generator and the end result was a bimbo Tomoko or something?
guys also please keep in mind that this concern is also applicable to other areasfor example in what system can we represent something like....the end scene of Prometheus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAi6hwLHqUyou'd need pretty much exactly the same rules for this as you would for rape
>>46164534welcome to FATAL, where there's a bazillion charts and the attributes don't matter.
Why are you making this thread? I'd call it shit but that would insult shit.
>>46166000to ask about people's opinion on the best existing rules for the most-ignored aspect of combat rules in RPGsI won't say most-ignored rules since that could also include stuff like rules for taking a shit, although my guess is better rules have been developed for thatmore 'how' and less 'why' please
>>46166142I think that this thread has shown that we're not very versed on the 'how' aspect. As we're unable to satisfactorily answer your question, we can only suggest that you do research with a legal approximate as said >>46164773here. Feel free to let us know what you figure out.
>>46166018The big problems with GG were that1) /pol/ got involved2) It was largely the same loud idiots who always complain about stupid shit in video games.
>>46165568>far as I know the last FATAL book came out 12 years agoSo?I typed "BACK".Like back in here on /tg/, like in...Nevermind, its Fatal we are talking about here and i rolled 88 for my asshole so...Move along.
>>46166314>1) /pol/ got involvedYou say that likes it a bad thing, plus who doesn't want to remove actually corrupt things in the industry. Thank God the Hulkster gave one of the massive sites a blow to the head.
>>46164372I can actually feel my IQ dropping.
>>46166396It is, /pol/shit helped their distraction tactics.
>>46166300Well to use GURPS as a basis, 4E basic set campaigns...page 399 says it is -3 to strike the groin areathat is a broader area though so I think a heavier penalty is warrantedface is -5 to hit, but that is still larger than what we are talking about. A mouth is smaller than a face for exampleskull is -7 and eye is -9 so I think maybe -8 sounds about right to do a called shot specifically on a mouth/vagina, possibly tying eye at -9 for anus would make sense though since it's smaller.grappling is on 370, if you succeed the grapplied is -4 to DX which would affect their ability to parry or dodge as a defense roll against a called shotit has rules for pinning where the party with the most free hands gets a bonuscontest of ST is done to try and break freethe main problem is I don't know what penalties to use for striking with odd body partsa kick for example is -2 to strike, I imagine the penalty would be steeper for a wobbly fleshy thing not stabilized
>>46166478And this is bad because why? They helped. I mean, if you said people that aren't from here (eg. leddit, tumblr) I would honestly understand that.
>>46166551By "they" I meant Gawker, etc.
>>46166595And Gawker is on fire and about to die. All is right in the world anon.
reading 4E martial arts right now, can't seem to find anything about "full mount" or "mount escape".These are important BJJ/MMA concerns which would also have relations to attempts to buck off a raping opponent.They would not be in full mount of course, that involves sitting on top of the legs.Basically variations on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_(grappling)#Open_Guard in martial arts sourcebooks could be adapted to rape rules
>>46164534>This does not deserve the title Rape RPG for how little it got exploredHow about this oneIt has "RAPE" right in the title.
Honestly FATAL's rules drag it down, the subject matter is fine. Proto-SJWs have caused it to have a reputation it does not deserve
>>46166396>Hulk Hogan does what hundreds of others can'tyeah keep writing those letters lmao
>>46165544>>46164919Horseshoe theory is really, really reductive and doesn't stand up well to close examination. That said, if you're enough of a hateful sack of shit the things you say are going to end up being offensive to damn near everyone
>>46166396It was a bad thing. It could have gone in the direction of "Alright, there's a good chance the whole Zoe Quinn thing was just an angry ex badmouthing her, but while we're on the subject of gaming journalism here's like a dozen different things we know for a fact happened that were at least as bad." The moment they got involved it stopped being about anything but complaining about the big bad feminist boogiewomyn.
>>46168717You're joking, right?
>>46169907It was destined to go to shit from the start. GG grew out of 'Quinnspiracy' whos instigator's explicit desire was the 'removal of feminism from gaming' or a victory against tumblrism. Hard to get serious about ethics after the fact.
>>46164386>This effectively means that a 200 pound man cannot rape a 200 pound woman in FATAL, she has to be 199 or below. Fucking DROPPED
>>46164372I myself was excited about gang rape because I thought I may be able to plunder the grappling rules from it.No dice.
>>46166300since when did that mattered for /tg/? I mean we are pulling stuff out of our asses since forever. If you don't know something just use creativity damn it.It doesn't have to be logical but it must be fun to read
>>46167268yeah but that's a larp and it has nearly zero mechanics on how to force yourself on the other, hell it's a granted thing that you will succeed in it, that's the whole premise of the game. Also it's gangrape not simple one
>>46164830Well if that is truly the definition then it is more extreme than your genderwar mindset can apparently acknowledge.That means it is impossible to simulate a man raping another man as well.
>>46164818Do you have a download link?
>>46168717You are missing the fucking point. The rules DO drag it down, because it's an unplayable mess that is so overcomplicated that a single character sheet is over four pages long.It's not a "Neo-SJW" thing, if you've read the goddamn thing, you'd see how fundamentally broken it is. The rape rules are just icing on the cake. It's not about how the insane rules function, it's about why the hell are they there in the first place.In what conceivable way will you ever and I mean ever, roll against someone's basketweaving skill?When will you fucking ever sit down and look up RULES for if your player wants to rape somebody. Not even ERP does this shit. That's what makes FATAL so imfamous, that it's so goddamn complicated for no reason whatsoever.
>>46164372>If it were actually a core element it would actually have some decent rules.by this logic fatal is a rpg about nothing
>>46165544>Horseshoe Theory!see wikipedia>In 2006 the term was used when comparing a resurgent hostility towards Jews from both the far left and the far right.come on why is /pol/ alwats right?