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Professional soldiers, what you think of Finnish Military? My countrymen are saying that Finnish conscripts are more professional than any other Western military.

You show them that they are less good/professional than they think they are.
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>>36664145
>Finnish
The dudes that carry around large wooden dicks and casually sodomize each other?
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>>36664145
We dont care if we are good or best, we are training to defend our country as good we can.
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I found this picture that perfectly sumarizes the conscripts in my country at least, would think the finnish are about the same as ours.
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This live-fire exercise is supposedly too demanding for the American military:

https://youtu.be/Knsq26Pqcvk
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>>36664145
>My countrymen are saying that Finnish conscripts are more professional than any other Western military.

What is Switzerland
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I'd really like to hear about this as well, since in exercises Finnish reservists and even conscripts have apparently often well outperformed their NATO / US counterparts.
Would be nice to hear from the other side as well.
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>At the squad, platoon, and company level, the U.S. Army is not as good as its allies, reports an Army captain.
>“Many of our allies, and likely some of our potential enemies, are now tactically better than we are at company level and below because we do not train enough at home station.”
>In other words, they don’t learn the fundamentals of maneuver before going for higher training at the Joint Multinational Readiness Center (JMRC), the big U.S. Army training base in Hohenfels, Germany.
>Here’s one of his examples. “Units default to conducting on-line frontal assaults because that’s all they have practiced,” he writes. In one rotation, a unit “defaulted to a frontal assault in the open without using terrain to their advantage in every engagement. In one of those engagements, a platoon sat static in the open, engaging an enemy Leopard tank. The Leopard fired some 10 times from 10 locations in 60 seconds and never stopped moving while taking concealed routes to and from multiple alternate firing positions.” He adds, “I’ve never seen an American tank do anything like that at JMRC.”

http://read.bi/2BKZ3Tc
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>>36664145
>professional soldiers
>posts cav
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>>36664260
Tell me anon, what's wrong with the cavalry?
Based on the Business Insider article, >>36664256 the tactical deficiencies apply to armoured units as well.
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>>36664252
That depends strongly on the unit. My AA-mechanic battery is probably among the pogiest there is (nobody addresses each other by rank, orders are only followed by goodwill, vonstant drinking and eating) but it's not lkke that is a bad thing since we do what we have to do
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>>36664145
Not necessarily more professional, but better adapted to operating in the area.
A Finnish conscript who's been trained to fight in a cold, wet place is obviously going to perform better in said conditions than a Western serviceman who's mainly accustomed to messing around innadesert
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>>36664270
The baseline for general infantry physical fitness and IQ is already pretty low, now take that baseline and drag it down further, while adding the distilled attitude of "we're basically infantry" Infantry is self aware enough to know where they stand.
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>>36664289
>The baseline for general infantry physical fitness and IQ is already pretty low
But the problems I've read about are more doctrinal and an issue of training. Things that do not require notable fitness or high IQ.
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>>36664145
Most countries have an esprit de corps in regards to military service people that overlooks failings and other fuck ups, lets face it. No one likes saying their country is shit and its much easier to get into long winded diatribes about 'best'.
I don't think conscription is necessarily a bad thing for little countries, but its an antiquated one which has consistently struggled to justify its existence in modern, well equipped smaller professional military forces that can lift well higher than the old fashioned horde of civilians with basic training. There's a distinct advantage of modernising and specialising with troops to take advantage of that technology, it actually turns out a better investment in time than trying to get 80% of your male population to shoot straight and not fuck up their equipment... well fuck it up more than they normally do.

The other thing to consider is deployments. If your country hasn't been blooded in a proper shitfight in living memory, its literally running on assumptions, theory and running on probability. Veteran capabilities in troops and command are a world of difference compared to green, untested soldiers- they've seen some shit, done it under fire and under the pressure that weeds out all the assumptions. If your country is under imminent threat of attack or constantly deals with border incursions from hostile elements, I'd agree that extra level of preparedness of citizens that have a bit of an idea of what to do on a total war footing, might count for something. But otherwise they're a waste of time and money better spent.

>Non-NATO, ex-military
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>>36664253
Burgers are just being polite.
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>>36664298
The difference between regular army and Ranger bat. Is not doctrine, it's physical fitness, support, and training. I appreciate you being learned on the subject, but us army combined arms doctrine is being adopted by any country with sense and budget. So yes, you're half right, training is an issue, but who reads the fucking fm anyway?
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>>36664300
>I don't think conscription is necessarily a bad thing for little countries, but its an antiquated one which has consistently struggled to justify its existence in modern, well equipped smaller professional military forces that can lift well higher than the old fashioned horde of civilians with basic training
No. A small professional military capable of fighting only operationally instead of stragetically is not more capable than a large, modern conscript force trained to conduct continuous total war.
The only notable difference is the professional force's capability abroad, in offensive wars far from home.
>There's a distinct advantage of modernising and specialising with troops to take advantage of that technology, it actually turns out a better investment in time than trying to get 80% of your male population to shoot straight and not fuck up their equipment... well fuck it up more than they normally do.
What are you basing all of this on? On third world conscripts? Russians? US conscripts in Vietnam?
How are they a better investment if they cannot fulfill their role in national defense?
>If your country hasn't been blooded in a proper shitfight in living memory, its literally running on assumptions, theory and running on probability.
But this is wrong. Military science is an active field that conducts studies and receives large amounts of experience from wars the countries themselves are not necessarily taking part in. The Ukrainian conflict for example has been a hotbed for the field, teaching many lessons on things as simple as the validity of artillery in modern battle, the effect of anti-air on air units and for example the importance of manpads in IADS, as they have proven to be the most prevalent killer of air units.
Even the Ukrainian's rapid mobilization at the start of the war was highly of note.
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>>36664172
fugg :D
benis :D:D:D
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>>36664300
>>Non-NATO, ex-military

Sweden ? Finland ? Austria ?
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>>36664318
>physical fitness, support, and training
Technically they fall under doctrine, don't they? I just separated training earlier because the failures could be based not on poor doctrine, but personal failings in units.
> but us army combined arms doctrine is being adopted by any country with sense and budget.
Naturally. US logistical, equipment and air superiority are essentially a guarantee of victory on a strategic level, but there is no reason for the tactical level to suffer in response.
Just stuff like:
>Here’s one of his examples. “Units default to conducting on-line frontal assaults because that’s all they have practiced,” he writes. In one rotation, a unit “defaulted to a frontal assault in the open without using terrain to their advantage in every engagement. In one of those engagements, a platoon sat static in the open, engaging an enemy Leopard tank. The Leopard fired some 10 times from 10 locations in 60 seconds and never stopped moving while taking concealed routes to and from multiple alternate firing positions.” He adds, “I’ve never seen an American tank do anything like that at JMRC.”
That I assumed is SOP for modern, professional armoured units is apparently something not performed by many, as if the modern battlefield with its ATGM and artillery threats, nevermind enemy armour, was not a dangerous enough place for everyone involved.
Hell, the Turks saw this in Syria and we have daily threads on /k/ now pushing shit on them because of it.
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>>36664187
It was a platoon offensive exercise though. Funny how the US deems it too unsafe to conduct such live fires, yet the soldiers can get shipped out to die on the other side of the world freely after that initial training.
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>>36664320
'National Defence' is too often treated as a static, responsive force and strategically its a severe disadvantage in modern warfare. Here's the way it works now- Force Projection with Combined Arms.
Your enemy can't get too far when you either first strike and send them into disarray or counter-attack into their territory where it will hurt the most, thus hindering their ability to continue fighting- its also not a popular view which doesn't get talked about much by the politicians or polite people, but you need a force capable of deep strikes that can tread on the neck of your enemy. That is the reality of modern day warfare, ugly, kicking the fuck out of people where they don't like it and in their own backyards.

Finland's isn't capable of doing that with its conscripts, at best they can hold a line and stall for however long or they eventually get smashed by being unable to project their military force. This isn't a new problem either, France and most of Europe ended up with a Nazi stamp on their heads because they failed to modernise, despite some of them having large standing armies didn't even get a lick in on Germany because they where always on the back foot, being outmanoeuvred and simply outclassed on the battlefield.
You couldn't do it 70 years ago, you can't do it now.

Military science only gets you about half the way.
The rest is actual fighting experience and seeing, doing what happens when you hot under deployment conditions. Hell I really put a lot of faith in it once as well, until I actually deployed, then you see all the holes in practice, the areas where I could have trained troops better, the outmoded concepts we where taught and then the mad scrabble to get shit actually working. Then make it work with other units! You can practice all you want and read all you want, but it really is the doing that makes the difference in the end I fucking swear by it.

>>36664324
Australia
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>>36664334
I'm phone posting so I apologize for not being able to reply with such robust replies, genuinely.
With Bat. Falling under jsoc, they are technically nested within doctrine. So me brining it up might have been a step in the wrong direction. I suppose what I'm getting at, on the tactical level that was referenced is that the reason why "suffering" on the tactical level is happening.
1.to simply extrapolate a failure in trainong from a hanful of unots rotating overseas is just plain bad, in my experience, when i, or other units travel to cross-train, it's a sham fest where you dp whatever the blowhard im charge wants to do for the day, then you all leave, get drunk and try to break the language barrier with alcohol

2. This is the important one, a frontal attack can be used for two things.
-a response when you believe you have overwhelming force and can literally overpower them

-to fix an enemy target in place to allow maneuver elements to gain a flanking postion, or simply calling in support assets (arty, air, etc)
Because the real kick in the dick for anyone who tries to start a fight with even a platoon sized element (at least the army) they never leave the wire without support. Ever. When you take a shot at a fireteam you aren't just fucking with them, you're also fucking with the gun bunnies about 6 km behind them.
Although, i can't comment on those fuckin retarded ass tankers, those dudes are fucking retarded, and theu wear weird boots
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>>36664145
>Cav
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>>36664379
>Finland's isn't capable of doing that with its conscripts,
And it would be absolutely incapable of it with a professional force. The conscript military gives Finland a large enough military to allow offensive operations as well as defensive ones. A professional military would be far too small to actually conduct both, or to have any sort of flexibility in the case of an invasion. It would be locked into reacting to the offensives of the enemy, with minimal reserves and no hope of anything unless half of NATO lands in country.
> and stall for however long or they eventually get smashed by being unable to project their military force.
Which is the eventual result no matter what if the fight goes on with no foreign help. There is no way for Finland to match Russia strategically in a one-on-one war.
>This isn't a new problem either, France and most of Europe ended up with a Nazi stamp on their heads because they failed to modernise -- didn't even get a lick in on Germany because they where always on the back foot, being outmanoeuvred and simply outclassed on the battlefield.
I don't know about other countries, but the Finnish military is constantly trying to improve itself, learning from exercises and simulations, doing everything it can to remain modern. What you said about France and Britain do not apply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foipv7iVP-c
> Hell I really put a lot of faith in it once as well, until I actually deployed, then you see all the holes in practice, the areas where I could have trained troops better, the outmoded concepts we where taught and then the mad scrabble to get shit actually working. Then make it work with other units! You can practice all you want and read all you want, but it really is the doing that makes the difference in the end I fucking swear by it.
Then why are no lessons learned? Was it simply the difference between COIN in shitholes versus training for total war? Something else?
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>>36664379
You present some very strong opinions on something you clearly have very little actual knowledge on. You would have given examples if you did. Can you support your opinions with actual arguments? "Professional army is plain better" isnt one.
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>>36664996
>oh I see you know nothing
Look, it’s the script from that vatnik poster. Good run until you gave it away.
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what all of you are failing to address is the necessity of local knowledge of terrain and such in a defensive setting that is very important in a joint defensive effort that finland would need in a situation where russia comes to get them. Sure, they can't beat them, the key is to delay them enough so that allies can arrive. My country has the same attitude. You need people capable of blowing up roads and such to do the things the country actually can do.
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>>36664379

Finland is in joint SF operations and peacekeeping operations. Our officers have arguably the same percentage of conflict experience as American officers. And at minimum peacekeeping experience.
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>>36665005
Okay.

>Finland's isn't capable of doing that with its conscripts, at best they can hold a line and stall for however long or they eventually get smashed by being unable to project their military force.

Defend this argument against conscript army.

Conscripts are literally exactly the same as professional military with 1 year under their belt, except with higher IQ. Whats included in that one year of training matters more than paycheck and the title "professional".
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>>36664964
It doesn't give you the flexibility of offensive options, as you said there is no way to match the old enemy 'Russia', hence thats why places like Ukraine lost their land and will be unable to get it back because they simply cannot project force into Russia, destroying their supply lines, disrupting communications and making them expend resources on their own soil to get rid of enemy presence. All it gives you is the delaying the inevitable tactic of getting blown up in the sometimes, vain hope that help will arrive.
What if it can't arrive?
Both France and Poland where quite adamant that the UK would help in WW2, but the simple fact was the UK was broke after WW1 and couldn't find a pot to piss in let alone send in an expeditionary force. As a country you really need to find cheap, effective and hard hitting people, equipment and means to not only repel the initial attack, but continue fighting and counter attacking for any perceivable future. Otherwise you will cease to be a country.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Finland's military is bad, but I peg it into the same area as Israel's conscript military in terms of 'being good enough', but unlike Israel you're unable to project force which would effectively cause a cessation in hostilities, or dissuade someone from fucking with you. If Russia is the enemy, then you need a very strong and active ability to convince them its really not worth their time, because history and wars aren't necessarily the same.

Lessons learned, a great many and basically the deployments we went on where channelled back into the military education system, in addition to that they also went where it mattered- government who finally wised up to the fact that if we're going to play wars, you got to pay to play them.

>hmm, this is getting lengthy
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>>36665068
>It doesn't give you the flexibility of offensive options
It doesn't give you the flexibility of offensive options
Why? You saying it doesnt make it so. FDF's focus is, as the matter of fact, on being a counter attack army. Has been for decades already.

All points you present are unrelated to conscription and more about doctrines and hardware. Theres nothing stopping a conscription based army from buying cruise missiles or tanks. Finland also has the highest number of artillery pieces and the second highest number of modern fighter jets(with AG armament including JASSMs) per capita on the planet. Only Israel has more.
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>>36665014
>Whats included in that one year of training matters more than paycheck and the title "professional".
Oh I'll tell you straight up mate.

I would rather have people with me in a fight that want to be there, trained to be there and that is THEIR JOB. They aren't the guy packing bags in a supermarket, the fellow who sells 2nd hand skidoos or someone that drives a taxi- they feel inconvenienced by having to go run around in a swamp a few days of the year, spend a year out of their life probably where they would rather be doing something else aside from getting caked in mud, cleaning guns and getting chewed out by cranky NCO's.

I would rather have 30 bloodthirsty cunts that want to rip the throat out of whoever I point them at, than 200 people that "oh god do I have to be here?" and only because they 'have to be there'
That is the key difference between professional armed forces and conscript forces. You can (and its been done) embed the conscripts within a professional military unit and get great results, we did it in Vietnam where each combat unit was a 50-50 mix of pro/conscript and the professionalism, extra training and will to fight migrates into the other soldiers.

That is the quintessential difference between professional military and civilians brought in on draft or conscription.
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>>36665068
>What if it can't arrive?
Then the situation was changed vastly from the present and there is little that can be determined. Russia is the current geopolitical threat and aid would not cease from arriving unless Germany went Fourth Reich.
>but continue fighting and counter attacking for any perceivable future.
And that's the thing. A professional Finnish military would not be capable of that, while the current system IS, though naturally in a limited fashion, simply due to the strategical differences between Russia and Finland.
Finland wouldn't fight alone though. Nordic cooperation and US interests are fact at this point. The latter cannot be relied upon, but the former is reality even now.
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>>36665098
So you'd rather have someone who couldnt get to university by your side than someone whos fighting to defend his home? Interesting. Why do you believe conscripts are less motivated? They dont need to be. We dont live in 1940s soviet union and the stereotype of a conscript having zero training and zero motivation is long dead.

PS. besides, the people who really dont want to be there... arent there. Useless people are useless and are get rid of, professionals or not.
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>>36665098
So you want to sacrifice operational and strategic capabilities for tactical "superiority" that in itself has been contested in this thread and is in fact the very subject of it.
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>>36665124
why no stats for norway?
I say yes so 100% so far
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>>36665103
>And that's the thing. A professional Finnish military would not be capable of that, while the current system IS, though naturally in a limited fashion, simply due to the strategical differences between Russia and Finland.
I think for many, including people who have served or serve right now, war is something that happens "somewhere over there". Military performance is the big stick whacked about by the politicians. Peak performance and quality matters most.

The whole thing turns upside down when your neighbor is 26 times your size in population, has about 8 times the military strength, nukes, and literally looks to annex you when good opportunity presents itself. And you are alone. Who the fuck cares if professional soldier is 2 % more motivated or physically stronger if you can get a brigade of them, to be shelled to death within the first 24 hours?
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>>36665116
I did 4 years of university, then 18 months in training before I was cut loose on a poor unsuspecting unit.
What makes you think soldiers in other countries aren't 'smart'? Because at this point you're simply running on assumptions and personal preconceptions. Fairly much every soldier I ever served alongside finished high school, many had secondary trades and where quite individually intelligent, very good group-functioning people. They where rough, not always someone you want to have marry your sister, but they did their jobs with total focus and dedication.
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>>36665132
I'm not. I gave a stupid stereotype for a stupid stereotype of yours.

How much does the average aus infantry soldier get to shoot annually, how many live fire excercises?
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>>36664145
>what do you think of the Finnish military

I don't. Literally irrelevant.

When was the last time they saw some action?
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>>36665150
>When was the last time they saw some action?

World War II.
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>>36665155
Id say western militaries and countries like Russia that have recently had more experience in the field are more professional.
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>>36665138
Its not a stupid stereotype, civilians with military training just aren't the same as full time military.
Its not their preferred job, its not what they wanted to do with their life and they'll have plans to do something else. As a (now) civilian its completely understandable as the military isn't for everyone, so they do a half-arsed job of it enough to get by.

As a 'rifleman', you'll go through 11 weeks intensive training (no leave) and then assessed at the end of it, either to repeat some aspects or be mustered out into the regiments. There's a lot of training there and most of it will be a very wide spread of arms and equipment, field craft, survival and PT. It is extremely hard physically and mentall.

You'll on average be doing live firing about once ever 3-4 months during peace time (plus about 2-3 big annual events of training), during an escalation or planned deployment it'll go up to 6-8 times a year, during that if I chuck you a mag with 30 rounds in it, I'd expect most to be able to at bare minimum be able to lay 28 on a target at 200m. But marksmanship is only part of it, there's vehicle training, desert, jungle, mountain warfare courses, you'll be doing a lot of platoon and company level activities that involve heavy and specialist weapons, some will also be offered leadership courses later on (NCO training) and there's a fuckload of survival, communications, rope use, swimming, more PT! and the usual drawing dicks on the inside of APC's.
If you're really lucky they'll throw you out of helicopters, drive boats, get 4wds bogged, go deaf playing with mortars, grenades, missiles and vast amounts of their life being covered in dirt, mud and bitten by bugs= and loving it.

>midnight here, turning into a pumpkin and good night!
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When you make a high IQ population that takes the defense of homeland very seriously go through conscription, you're gonna end up with rather decent conscripts
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>>36664379
>static hold
Nigga, the whole Finnish doctrine is based on dispersed troops conducting hit-and-run operations in the whole depth coupled with armored counter-attacks on the worn down enemy spearheads.
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>>36665260
That's what holding in place is and has been since the late cold war. If you're imagining Finns are somehow superior because you think conducting the defence is sitting in one hole like it's WW1, you're an idiot creating a false standard. The Finns are doing basic bitch shit. There's nothing wrong with that, everyone does it; don't pretend it makes them elite.
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>>36665289
>That's what holding in place is and has been since the late cold war.
Is this holding in place?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2crAx8kibis
Because a doctrine built specifically on avoiding lengthened engagements with the enemy and fighting in concentrated units to hold terrain is not "holding in place" in my mind.
t. different anon.
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>>36665289
That's why it's called Motti tactics, right?
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>>36665209
You arent here to exchange opinions but to pour down opinions from your high castle.

30 round magazine at the range once in 3 months is literally nothing, might as well not bother. An individual needs thousands of rounds annually just to maintain achieved level of skill. And thats at the range.

>>36665289
Wiping the floor with western armies in multinational excercises since 1991. On the ground and in the air. There are deficiencies in conscription and Finnish doctrines and training(personally I think they are physically too demanding from the average individual, up to the point of men regularly passing out on day 1 of two week excercise) but theres nothing to be ashamed of at tactical or smaller level. (if you want to really trigger a finn, talk about the so called "navy"... or the antique 7,62x39)
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>>36665124
>39%

WTF happened to you Swissland ?
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>>36665289
>sitting in a whole
But thats objectively wrong
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>>36665381
>talk about the so called "navy"
In the so called Baltic "sea", with NATO controlled entry, monitored waters, Swedish navy and air force and whatever anyone wants to throw into that sea to fuck with Russia. There really are no notable possibilities for Russian operations in the Baltic sea, should alliances not shift notably.

>Finland drops depth charges in 'submarine' alert
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32498790
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An important thing to remember here is that the Finns are preparing to fight Russians, ie. less well trained and motivated conscript force.
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>>36665381
>personally I think they are physically too demanding from the average individual
Kek. I was totally out of shape for my conscription and was constantly wishing they'd push us harder.
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>>36665358
Yeah. You're going for the standard internet defense commentator failure mode too:

1. create mental models derived from movies, games, and skimming old military handbooks
2. see modern doctrine is practiced differently and realize that basic bitch professionals rape casuals when working IRL
3. think what is actually basic competence = super elite
4. think "my team is super elite...therefore your team must be competent but nothing special, therefore they are worse than modern doctrine...so they are like my imagination aka ww2"
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>>36665407
Oh, I see. You're just baiting.
It'd be nice if you could keep it in Vatnik vs Burger threads.
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>>36665397
One has to wonder what Sweden and its navy would do if Russia decided to attack Finland. Would they have the balls to conduct military aid on the sea?
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>>36665429
Sweden needs at least 3 days if the war is declared on a Saturday.
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>>36665429
That's the plan. It's well in Sweden's interests for Finland to remain the buffer against Russia as well. Hell. It's in a lot of people's interest to keep Russia away from having strategic control of the Baltic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8VEoZLGag
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>>36665381
>Antique 7.62x39
You got me, nothing wrong with the round when the engagement range is below 500meters in most places. Could you design a better round for the environment? Probably, but the benefits of 7.62x39 outweigh the benefits of creating a niche round.
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>>36664306
Not really, the US just doesn't train or do exercises in the same way Finland does, which is usually the reason why the US underperforms in exercises with their allies.
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>>36665429
Why does the Defense Minister of Norway look like she breaks into cobblers workshops at night to make shoes?
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>>36665124
>kraut
guess those muzzies don't want to fight for Merkel
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>>36664172
Russian here, that looks about right for us
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>>36665789

I dont know if you know that you posted a Finn
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>>36665799
I do, they are our neighbor everyone thinks we want to invade for some reason after all
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>>36664145
West panders finns to join NATO and as such all commendations from the west should be taken with a grain of salt.

Theres nothing professional about conscripts, its the literal opposite. If you take the average soldier from a western army and compare it to an average finn conscript it become quite clear.
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>>36664253
They outperform because its Leopards vs. Strykers kind of scenarios without air.
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>>36666183
The Leos vs. Strykers had air. That scenario was just the result of the Americans making real stupid tactical decisions instead of any particular Finnish skill.
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>>36664187
Loved that. Especially the road popups
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>>36665942
I hope we don't have to fight. I just want to take a couple shots of vodka and a bit of friendly cheeki breeki with brothers
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>>36665098
I think you misintepret the motivation of conscripts. Where I'm from there's waiting lists to get in.
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>>36664145
>a conscript army that hasn't fought a war for 70+ years
>vs
>a technologically advanced processional military that has been in constant warfare for the last 17 years
What the fuck is this level of trolling is this?
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>>36665236
>high IQ population
The average IQ is no higher in Finland than in most western countries. Furthermore, an average IQ is not much to boast with - significantly higher capacity for abstract thought is required to operate the most useful military hardware provided by modern technology.

Don´t tell me you believe in the "americans are dumber than us" meme, too?
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>>36666597
>waiting lists
Norway doesn´t practice conscription, you ignorant cretin. "Selective conscription" is a thinly veiled way to say "de facto professional military".
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>>36666167
>If you take the average soldier from a western army and compare it to an average finn conscript it become quite clear.
Where can I view such comparisons?
>>
Pitting stryker infantry against an armoured mechanized opfor is retarded, especially the way the army is using it's stryker brigades nowadays anyway. Either pit a trained light infantry brigade with the unsnipped-testical fire support they would actually have, or an armoured brigade combat team with Bradleys and Abrams. Many times when the US conducts training at the bigger levels they dont or can't replicate the levels of support that they are really supposed to have. Or even something as simple as replicating real life battle field effects in the training environment can degrade the effectiveness of fires, both direct and indirect. IE going to NTC or JRTC with only 80% of your forces and missing key assets such as air or naval gunfire support, or without a way to accurately replicate third effects on the battle field usually make units look bad, forces them to try different approaches or make bad decisions. Also add in different x factors such as new electronic jamming devices being tested during a rotation, or supplementing the opfor with additional units, or even something as simple as not having enough observer/controllers to adjudicate kills or certain effects. This doubles when haveing two different forces from different countries with different languages.
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>>36666571
I just want to annoy estonians
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>>36666895
Both sides had armor both in 2016 and 2017. Stryker company lost to grenadiers moving on MT-LBs and they had no idea what to do when their comms were jammed(jammers also swapped sides mid excercise).

I too would avoid making too strong conclusions way or another, Americans were detached from the organization they are familiar with and thrown to the deep end of the pool. Against "mere conscripts", but still.
>>
>m-muh international exercises
It's fucking retarded to compare the performance of teenagers who've never been to war to the Americans who actually see combat which is infinitely more demanding than any LARPfest.

t. Finn
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>>36667041
Interesting, usually at least one company of armour will go with a battalion of light or stryker but too often are used to protect command assets or large open areas instead of pushing forward with forward line units. Obviously this is individual commander dependent on how they use their assets but too often I see commanders making the 'safe' decisions instead of bold moves with a basses of info from their scouts. Also along the same lines, coming from light, mech and Stryker experience, it is the lower company commanders and platoon leaders from light who operate the best with limited to no communication. And conversely I think that gives an edge to the conscripted/non US forces who are used to operating on a more basic level. Also haveing been light and pitted against a mechanized force in thick forest/ swamp environment, being able to freely move about and use the terrain the enemy cannot was pivitol in defeating them. If they had used/ trained/ allowed their infantry to dismount and move into the same terrain it would have been a different fight. Too often US mechanized and Stryker infantry forces don't train on the basic infantry tactics and try to use their vehicles as a safe haven. Also I like how you mention the detachment piece, which is another x factor and impacts more than alot think.
>>
Could US Marines carry refugees' bags and clean up after them this efficiently?
I didn't think so USA BTFO
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>>36664172
I don't know why I love these stupid fucking things.
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>>36667307
As a Marine who trained with Striker units, I agree with this wholly.

Army Cav units take "cavalry" WAY to far, often riding UP to an objective and then dismounting right on top of them.
And when comns are down, Army infantry run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Simple shit like bounding, simple platoon level formations and movements are unheard of.
>>
"Wherever a Finnish SS-man stood, the enemy was always defeated."
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>>36667565
"Wherever a Finnish conscript stood, the refugees never had to carry their bags"
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>>36667511
Yes I very much agree, for the most part. There are some very good infantry units left in the army though, 10th mountain, 101st, 82nd, hell even 3rd ID had a good thing going for a little while with a light brigade, but it's gone back to mech again. The army needs to seriously evaluate their infantry brigades and make some changes, and soon.
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I'll just leave this here.
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>>36667511

I'm sure you know the meme about Marines eating crayons yes? Army Cav units have that same reputation amongst Army Infantry, as well as having more buttsex than the Navy.
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>>36666895
In 2018 there will be Abrams against Finnish leo2a6 in Arrow18 exercise. Then we will see... (Americans getting beaten to dead that is)

T. A Current Finnish leo2a6 concscript.
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>>36664145
Conscription, if done right, can get you a much better army then volonteers, simply because you xan select the top say 10% of your nations population for military training. If they are patriotic, wich is the case in many nations using conscription, they will not be unmotivated either.

Sweden just reintroduced conscription, and quality of recruits dramatically increased compared to volonteers.

In nations with universal (male) conscription, you of course end up with both the top 10%, bottom 10% and everyone inbetween.

Conscription however does not work for all nations, it has a lot to do with culture.

Having worked with finnish conscripts tho, they are decent.
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>>36668271
We beat them up with Leo 2A5S in Aurora 17. But that was probably much down to it beeing our homebase, and us knowing the terrain much better.
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>>36666183
But in Cold Response Finnish jägers BTFOd Norwegian professionals. Apparently raising butthurt with stuff like
>send platoons into the Norwegians rears to dig in some AT mines and prepare ambushes
>assault frontally
>retreating Norwegians drive into mines and get BTFO in ambushes
>end up reacting to every single two-bit mine blockage as if they were major mine obstacles
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>>36667511
>Army Cav units take "cavalry" WAY to far, often riding UP to an objective and then dismounting right on top of them.
Heh, this is exactly how some of the cavs got destroyed in Arrow 16 in Finland.
>Strykers assaulting Finnish jäger positions
>drive into LAW range to dismount
>surprisingly Strykers get destroyed by AT weapons in Finnish infantry squads
>dismounted infantry gets mopped up
>cavalry troops later, when interviewed, state the amount of anti-tank capability in a Finnish squad was a complete surprise to them
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>>36668350
What I heard from Arrow17 and American strykers doesn't give me much hope
>drive your company on top of the highest hill, and on "firing positon" rather than "observing position" (some American tankers may tell me whe these are called in English, or if they even know what those are)
>idea is to stop enemy attack
>same sizee leo2a6 #rekts all your equiptment
>cry how they somehow "broke the rules"
Also
>use stryker platoon top of a hill to "draw in indirect fire" while others attack
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>>36668384
How many AT weapons do you have in say a platoon?

In Sweden we have 2 - 4 Carl Gustavs, around 10 AT-4s and usually one or two Rb 57s (NLAWs). I belived that was pretty common in todays mechanized arena.

Mines are excluded, as that vary greatly, and any unit can be given them
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>>36668438
secret
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>>36668438
Not available freely online, so I won't be spreading that info either. Plenty of them though, mines included. The mines always raise butthurt in international exercises.
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>>36668418
I was talking about Aurora 17, not Arrow 17, but both of them seem to have ended similarly.
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>>36668470
Oh nice. Do you have any stories or anecdotes from Aurora 17? What kind of stuff went down there?
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>>36668451
>>36668461
I can see that exact numbers given to each unit in case of mobilization is secret, especially regarding single shot weapons and mines, I was thinking about peacetime exercizes, the kinda stuff you could find out by looking at pictures if you wanted too.

Mines are a pain in the ass. Once a local home guard platoon knocked out a reduced armored company by beeing assholes with tons of AT-mines in an exercise.
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>>36668470
Yes I know, I was giving an example about other exercise that didn't go so well.

Other thing:
Americans didnt have a clue on how to use radio. They would talk and brodcast EVERYTHING. You couldn't get a word in even when you had something importan to say. The american batallion (or company) leader tought that the finnish tank platoon was already dead just because the platoon commander couldnt get a word in.
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>>36668497
>I was thinking about peacetime exercizes,
Peacetime exercises are conducted in wartime units and compositions. The endwar training exercise is exactly that. A ~week long "war" with two sides doing their very best at defeating eachother, simulating war as closely as possible.
>the kinda stuff you could find out by looking at pictures if you wanted too.
That's still stuff I'd rather leave for Misha to figure out, rather than to function as a OSINT source for free.
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>>36668499
Oh yeah, this is a thing that's often brought up. Americans have NO radio discipline at all. They talk and talk and talk and transmit and transmit and transmit. If the enemy has any sort of EW capability, the American units are going to get an MLRS barrage on their heads before they even make contact.
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>>36668506
I was thinking when you are doing exercizes with foregin nations, you probably didnt use your wartime composition, to keep the secrets, that was allways the case for us at least. But I understand your answer, and respect it.
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>>36668529
The exercises we had where foreigners were involved we were functioning in wartime composition, so I'd assume the others were as well. After all, the last third of conscription is all about training how to function as a part of the actual military in realistic situations and with realistic gear.
>But I understand your answer, and respect it.
I just have a zero tolerance on everything even possibly classified so I don't accidentally end up blurting any of the top secret stuff when drunk or something.
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>>36668529
The major domestic excercises that are held twice a year are very large by Euro standards and have in the past 6-ish years regularly seen international participants. Regular American guests is a new thing. In 2017 they took part to Arrow and two air force excercises.

You can see many great photos on 2nd Cav's facebook and site, and photo albums here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dragoon2scr/sets/72157667753049771/ its from 2016 and ivan's osint bots must have found it already(since it was on facebook). t anotherfag
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>>36668553
Pretty much the same goes for us, first you work in a fireteam, then in a squad, then in a platoon etc.

>>36668600
Thanks. Its a pitty our forces are so small. Largest exercise we have had for a while was Aurora, with abot 20 000 people.
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>>36668499
>>36668517
I don't know, but in the Marines we were told NOT to use radios unless there is something REALLY important, from what I've been hearing the Army doesn't feel the same way.
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>>36668755
>from what I've been hearing the Army doesn't feel the same way.
They think excessive chatter is a strength.
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>>36668755
Same goes for pretty much all branches/nations.

The US Army however seem to not give a fuck.
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>>36668506
>>36668529
>>36668553
Javelins cause MUCH butthurt among tankers, and I've heard that in Ukraine they've been using them on Russi- I mean Separatist tanks to great effect.
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>>36668775
Are Javelins used by Finland?

But yeah, basically all, small manportable ATGMs seem to have great effect today.
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>>36668788
>Are Javelins used by Finland?
No, but Spikes and NLAWs that do the same work.
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>>36668794
NLAWs are cool, beeing so light, the Spike is a bit more heavy isnt it, but probably has better range
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>>36668809
Yeah, the Spike's really a more of a traditional ATGM, crew-served and requires a proper setup. NLAW's just aim and go. Hell for tanks with no APS.
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>>36665429
I wonder if their cycles are lined up
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>>36664145
not really a soldier but i think their pretty neat
far better than most other european """"armies""""
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>>36668788
Against a mobile target like how tanks are SUPPOSED TO BE USED AS, hitting them is often quite difficult, but the Jav is a fire and forget missle that is fast, has a VERY small signature, and hits from the top. Due to this the primary shaped charge is actually pretty small, but the secondary detonating charge is FUCKING HUGE. If a Jav hits your tank it's near certain everybody in it is dead.
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>>36668129
What's Finnish for "no homo"
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>>36668832
the poland one looks like yuri from red alert 2
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>>36668847
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>>36668838
Cant it be disoriented in forrests/when smoke grenades are used, considering its fire and forget?

If it hits however it would be all over for any vehicle as you say.
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>>36668859
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>>36668845
ei oo homoa se on vaan veljeyttä
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>>36668845
"Ei olla laivastossa."
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>>36668845
Mikä on siviilissä homoa on armeijassa veljeyttä.
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>>36668870
>>36668872
>>36668881
oh fug thx :-DDDDD
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>>36668860
But for that to work you need to first detect it.
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>>36668911
Also remember this: Tyhmä saa olla muttei tykkimies
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>>36668926
Well, thats true. Im assiuming thats pretty hard since it isnt guided by any detectable laser, and has a very clean burn.
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>>36668860
No, it's a thermal/memory tracker missle, and as it "glides" to the target it "remembers" what the target is and it's direction, so avoiding it is near impossible. The only thing I could think of doing is to pop thermal smoke while cooling the outside of the vehicle so it's thermal signature is changed, but even then the missle might go for it.
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>>36668940
Id say pop IR smoke, and move. If it looses you in the smoke and goes for your last known position, it might hit a few meters of then.

But its allways a game of cat and mouse isnt it, whoever detects the otherone first, probably wins.
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>>36668965
Well in tank battles he who will detect the enemy first will open fire first, he is going to hit the enemy first and finally he is going to win the standoff.
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>>36668929
I get the gist with the others, but google translate was less than helpful on this one.
I also had to look up one that said "See you at the market place" not too long ago
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>>36668982
Not only does it work against guided slav missiles, fire and forget crews will hesitate to fire even if they are going to hit, if they know a 120mm HE shell is comming at them a second later if they do.
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>>36669011
>but google translate was less than helpful on this one.
"It's alright to be stupid, but not an artilleryman".
It's a derivative from "It's alright to be insane, but not stupid" and is implying that artillerymen are dumb as bricks. (They are)
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>>36669011
>tyhmä saa olla muttei tykkimies
Translation: You can be stupid but not a "cannon man"
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>>36669041
>>36669047
neat, military slang is always of interest to me, as a Navy man, we had our own shit. Even stuff specific to my division and workcenter
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>>36669091
It's a shame most of them don't really translate into English.
>Alpha haisee, KoPa tetsaa, Echo = choco.
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>>36669112
I was in catapults so we used to call shitbirds "Dropshots" and we made a log of reasons to not reenlist, and a log of people who were dickriding officers and chiefs, people getting butthurt, etc.

Helped pass the time on shitty Persian gulf deployments
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>>36664256
>one army captain
>likely never deployed
>been in the army 4-8 years
>two duty stations at most
>his first command, and only been a platoon leader for 9-12 months before this exercise

Solid source to base the entirety of US maneuver Warfare off of.
I will agree that individual soldier skills are not given enough emphasis and collective tasks are too hurriedly thrust upon units, especially abct with a 13 month deployment cycle. Sergeants time training doesn't exist anymore.
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>>36668845
Ei homolla tavalla, vaan miehekkäällä latinotavalla.
>>
Question for the Finns ITT. In the hypothetical event of a resurgent, aggressive Russia, would you rather side with them or with NATO & us burgers. I know that your govt leans toward NATO, but id like your personal opinions.
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>>36669685
Why would anyone ever side with Russia?
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>>36669685
Finland would side with anyone who would fight Russia.
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>>36669685
Isn't the whole point of the current organisation of the finnish defence forces to be able to mobilise a ca. 350,000 men strong army in case the russians go nuts and try to invade?
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>>36669889
Yes. The enemy will always come from the East unless it's flanking.
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>>36669734
I wasnt aware you guys still had that strong distaste for the Russians. Guess i asked a stupid question.
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>>36669950
They're out eternal enemy. They bring nothing but war and suffering.
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>>36669950
It's easy to like Russians when you're an American or west Euro who doesn't have to deal with them IRL.
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>>36670003
Theres a very large Russian diaspora in my hometown, so i understand on some level. Good food & booze though, I have to give then that.
>>
I'm sure the Finns are all patriotic and eager to fight but at the end of the day a conscript army rarely performs as well as a professional. After the Falklands war, where two equally equipped forces were pitted against each other, proved that conscript armies tend to get utterly smashed by a vicious and aggressive professional army, many nations including Russia very quickly started to shift away from the conscription model.
That said, I'm still not sure Russian military culture, including its horrific hazing, has exactly the esprit de corps required for their professional forces to have more of a will to fight in Finland than the Finns.
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>>36668354
This is good but not even the best.

>fighting against the norwegians
> innatent be on tinder
>notice large concentrations of norwegian women with mil pics 7km away
>get an idea, go find the motorcycle courier
>”drive to these positions, and mark the distance of these women on tinder”
>he looks confused, hand him my phone and he drives off
>comes back 30 min later
>mark the positions on the map an triangulate the women with the distances
>go tell your CO
>he sends recon to the areas
>they find multiple singnals units
> arty them to shit
> repeat everytime they are ”reborn”
> norwegians go full radio silence thinking we are monitoring their comms
>still destroy the units
> the norwegians are fucking pissed and claim that we are cheating but can’t figure out how
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>>36671285
>my fucking sides
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>>36671285

This is excellent
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>>36671285
>women in combat
Man this would be funny if it weren't fucking real life, goddamn fucking liberals need to get WALLED.
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>>36670192
Falklands would be better example if there had been fighting on the mainland, or if the deployed Argentine troops hadnt had minimal training, equipment and poor leadership.

equipment wise the situation was pretty bad here too until early 90s. Wartime OOB had several battalions where the average trooper would have received a mosin nagant, helmet, belt and a pair of boots...
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>>36664170

The others are butthurt that Finland is the only Scandinavian state that is not energetically gay.
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>>36668129
I like the purebred New Finn in the middle.
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>>36671442
I bet a lot of norwegian males had tinder switched on too. It isnt really a female problem this time, more likely just retarded fucking norwegians overall.
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>>36668863
He's what the Master from Doctor Who should look like.
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>>36667290

But have you actually trained against nato?

In a 3 day simulation battle against Finnish conscripts the "professional" Nato forces got BTFO so bad the 3rd day had to be called short when Nato had nothing left to defend.
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>>36664379
Finland is bad in alot of ways but probably well suited for the type of war most likely to occur on them via combined arms defense in depth.
They are probably in a better place than alot of euro nations - that said the defense strategy relies on calling up/re-conscripting a prior conscript with 1-2 years of experience - the question is how many answer the call and not flee to Sweden/Europe
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>>36664161
Those are for communicating with Swedes. At least the black ones are.
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>>36665014
>exactly the same as professional military with 1 year under their belt
In terms of competence, yes the gap is minimal
In terms of inititiave?
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>>36674330
Over 85% of the population has answered that they will defend their nation, even against a larger foe like Russia.
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>>36674343
Probably similar too. Commanders is rarely conscripts anyway.
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>>36665103
Sweden will never, ever break neutrality, the Swiss would sooner break neutrality, and Norway and the Netherlands are tied into NATO, as is Iceland.
So enjoy a single regiment of Swedish volunteer cuck boys that you need to arm and small amounts of foreign SF from Sweden and NATO that are willing to assist either in a training or direct action deniable capacity
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>>36674369
I think the best and at the same time most likely help Sweden can provide is data from their radar planes, maybe airfields, and keeping their own waters clear so that foreign trade can continue as unhindered as possible. Luckily the Russian Baltic Fleet is weak and there arent more than 6 Kilo boats, for now.
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>>36665130
This is true for Finland, I just hope when the time comes they can raise 20+ divisions with all those ex-conscripts and ex-professionals because their combined arms defense in depth strategy hinges on activating large portions of the population.
The problem with al of this is modern warfare moves fucking fast, Russia could already be in Helsinki before you've raised and armed 10 divisions of priors, so a priority for a nation like Finland would be a army capable of irregular warfare in depth as well as an insurgency after the formal surrender or capitulation of the central government
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>>36665124
Turk roaches are at least willing. Weather or not they’re worth anything.
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>>36674369
You really have no clue what you talk about. Sweden isnt even neutral. And while we told ourselfs we were during the cold war, we never was back then either, and most people knew it. We have an active defence alliance with Finland, and 4/9 swedish partys wants to join Nato.
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>>36674404

Our alliance will suffer if you join Nato
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>>36665289
>>36665358
The defense strategy of Finland is much less terrain centric and much more about decentralized small unit tactics dispersed and behind the FEBA (ftont)
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>>36674412
Yeah, most liekly, but if we are to join Nato or not is based on what is best for Sweden. Right now I find it a bad idea, as our forces are still to small to contribute to Nato. In the future however, when we have expanded, I might change my mind
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>>36674416
This. It will be another Afghanistan, and neiter the USSR or US managed to defeat the taliban there
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>>36674292
Yeah norwegians must be the only ones DUMB enough to do this. Not like there's a huge security issue internationally in regards to training apps right now hmmm
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>>36668384
The US has gotten waaaaaaaaay too comfortable fighting irregular and insurgent forces, the doctrinal mission creep towards irregular wars or 3rd world WARPAC equipped has been pronounced since the end of Vietnam.

It's not exactly surprising to see Stryker Brigades thinking they can pull the same shit they pull in Iraq/A-Stan, where 95% of the time the worst shit you'll face is an old ass RPG-7 with an expired warhead and you have slat armor and a RWS, an environment where that violence of action pays off.

War against a near peer is much, much more cautious
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>>36667472
I love them too, have any more?
Fuckin saved. Just reminds me so much of my old conscript days
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>>36668499
The more motorized an american unit is the more reliant it is on radio.

Either way the US military is geared towards dominating 3rd world warsaw pact equipped adversaries and insurgents

Also
>Wheeled APC's against an Armored unit
Ditch the APC's in the treeline, dismount and disperse, hope to god the ATGMV's and Jav's can do the job
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>>36674472
Just forbid private phones while on exercise or doing anything else sensitive in the armed forces, cant be too hard can it?
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>>36668755
I was a Army light infantry grunt, same shit.
Basically the more mechanized a unit is the more you can count on it to rely on radios for organization
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>>36664256

i can see this

on the company level it seems like all we do is SHARP training, maintenance, and then the fucking retarded shit on AKO and other horseshit the government paid for
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>>36674473
To be fair tho, all nations has some motorised forces, the Stryker brigade concept isnt really exclusive for the US.
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>>36674486
I'm another but there are probably thousands of these...
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>>36674429

>mfw im Russians
>we march over the border and 90% of the Finnish male population disappears into the forests
>>
How many finns are conscripted each year?

30 000? 40 000?
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"Allrighty boys, now grab yourselves by the balls! We'll go innawoods and eat usnea for two weeks! You'll build yourselves new rifles and infultrate behind the enemy lines and diu diu diu! Common sense boys, common sense!"

"Gotcha!"
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>>36674528

25-30 thousand new conscripts.
10-35 thousand reserves rehearsing.
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>>36674404
"Alliance"
I mean I acknowledge alot of Swedish volunteers fought in Finland, but Swedens wartime policy during WW2 was either appeasement or neutrality
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>>36674528
About 25k go in, 22k finish their training.
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>>36674542
>>36674547
I see, thats pretty cool.

Basically what Sweden had in the early 90's. Back then about 1 million people could be mobilised.

Today we train the pathetic number of 4000 conscripts/year.

>>36674546
Yes, but we are not talking about WW2. Now we have an active alliance.
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legendary
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>>36674429
The problem is Russia is a mechanized beast that can cause the Finnish government to capitulate in weeks, simply because they can take vast swathes of the country in an armored thrust, so at what point does the military break with the government and continue the fight?
Strategic depth is a much broader classification in modern war when a front line can shift 50+ miles a day
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>>36674547
Do most of those who abrot do it due to injuries, or are they not willing to finnish?

22/25 k isnt bad tho, thats more then 95%
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>>36674570
They've managed to improve the ratio a lot. There are ever less people who waste everyones time by leaving to civil service or for medical reasons after just mere days.
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>>36674564

Exactly the same thing they said about ww2 (Finland), afghanistan and vietnam.

And desu we are far better prepared nowdays.
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>>36674510
Yeah but other NATO nations prioritize training and doctrine towards conventional threats as a matter of necessity, typically sending the best trained forces into irregular/low intensity conflicts.

The ENTIRE US military is low intensity dominated, after that its blitz against a non-peer (3rd world) adversary
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>>36674564

I guess we will never know, thankfully. But finns are some tough bastards, so Id assume they wouldnt give in just because they are given a moscow-directed government in Helsinki. Much how the norwegian recistance continued after the nation was occupied by germany.
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Spirit of stove appears
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>>36674558

Korohoro pride.

t: heittimen johtaja / AMOS ampuja
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>>36674591
Love this one
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>>36674581
>ww2 lines shifting more than 5 miles a day

I'm by no means saying you can't win, it's just that to win the military should be prepared to fight after most of or the entire government capitulates because the Russians broke into and captured most of the major population centers and capitol
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>>36674591
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>>36674590
Yeah but the Norwegian government and military surrendered. The Finnish military needs to break with the government wholly when pseudo-cucked politicians in Helsinki surrender because Russia just dropped 2+ VDV Divisions right on the Helsinki outskirts and all of a sudden they have to stare down the barrel of an AK
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>>36674501
The bar for what is considered sensitive is pretty high mate. And this is not an issue with armed forces, this is an issue with the entire worlds population, they don't give a fuck about digital privacy, what kind of data they give away and such. Governments don't because people don't. It's a huge issue IMO but nobody else with power give any fucks.
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>>36674634
Russia doesnt even have two VDV divisions they could use for that, but I get your point.

Hopefully the military wouldnt give up tho.
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>>36674517
thanks mate, do you know of any place that has stored these, also with translation?
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>>36674617
>two liters of hand sanitizer
Fuck thats dedication, I don't even think an Injun could pull that off
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>>36674610

Oh yah, Helsinki is valuable, but losing it would not matter. The further you get from the capital the more independent the military gets Also a large part of our reservists have rifles and gear ready at home. Even if we wouldnt win, were not just going to cave in and lay down our arms.
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>>36674642
Sorry I dont, but I'm sure there are many who collect them. I believe most of the OC content gets posted first at https://ylilauta.org/sota/
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>>36674641
The VDV has two airborne/para and two air assault divisions and a bunch of indepentent brigades.
Not enough air lift for 2 para divisions at once (or even a full strength division), but they also have Aeroflot
Imagine them starting an invasion with an aerial assault on the capitol like this, supported by clandestine forces operating either in a fifth column or direct action role
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>>36674657
Considering a VDV brigade has its own supply of ammunition, fuel and food to fight for 1 - 4 days, stopping their subsequent supply lines would be very important.
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>>36674663
cheers buddeh
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>>36674657
My point is when the order to surrender comes out from the central government, how much of the military continues the fight, how much of it stands down?

Now make the scenario worse, how much continues the fight when the MoD, chief of defence, and top commanders of the varying branches of the FDF are ordering surrender as well?

What if your battalion/brigade commander follows the order? Do you shoot him in the face?
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>>36674669
Given the 20 000 angry finns in the area with rifles in their homes,I wouldnt want to be those guys. But they might pull it off, if they are willing to sacrifice most of that division and/or its transport capacity
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>>36674698
There is an order, wich allways stands, that states that any government not elected by the finnish people should be opposed, and this includes formers governments forced to say things if Im not mistaken.
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>>36674698

Yah nah, the military organization hates Helsinki and their lead. And i am one of those who would desert and disappear into the forest if we were told to surrender.

Its not really an option, surrender honestly is not an option. Not as long as we have ammunition and puukkos.
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>>36674698
Government or parts of it getting captured(very unlikely imho no matter what super soldiers or equipment Russia has) isnt necessarily the end of it, because the wartime laws give just that much more authority to the military. Parliament needs to confirm martial law within 2 weeks after the President has initiated it, but its effective immediately. If Parliament is unable to arrange a legal vote on the matter within those 2 weeks, martial law stays in place.
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>>36674674
>Food, Fuel
It's Helsinki, they take anything not nailed down, the goal is to capture the center of government and its officials and force capitulation fast, either way several field armies are blitzing through Karelia
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>>36674726
Russia doesnt have several field armies to spare in the west, considering most of their forces will have to be kept in reserve if Nato pulls something funny. A few divisions could probably be used tho, by no means a small force.
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>>36674716
Again, you are an individual, what about a higher level officer of a unit alot of valuable military equipment following the surrender - like a Armored unit with Leo's and CV-90's, what happens when he and several officers down the chain are content to surrender?

The kind of inititiave i'm talking about, being willing to shoot those officers in the face to save and use that equipment for post-surrender combat operations
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>>36674712
Now add in the entire top brass, they get captured as well
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>>36674747
Their standard unit is the so called "motorized infantry bridage" of which they have about 44 or 42. Each has 260 BMPs and 41 T-72s, except the last 4 that are VDV's. Then some 6-ish tank brigades.

If they want to muster 3:1 superiority against fully mobilized finland... I dont think they can realistically achieve that.
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>>36674765
I guess we will never find out. Hopefully they would fight as best they can, and show the rest of the nation that surrender is not an option
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>>36674758

Absolutely, understand that im not even one of the most extreme ones here. The officers in the army are absolutely devoted to the idea of an independent Finland. Its not a good job with good pay and benefits, especially the NCOs are almost doing charity work.

I wouldnt question their loyalty to the idea of Finland, but i would question their loyalty to the government, especially if told to stand down and surrender.
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>>36674767
>Fully Mobilized

The entire fucking point of an airborne operation would be to seize the center of government before a mobilization can be completed. I'm talking word (mobilization order) breaks as MiG's and Sukhois are fighting the FAF and para's are already in the fucking air - Russia opens with an Air drop - SEAD/CAP, interdiction, strategic bombardment of military bases, the works
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>>36674786
Considering most units can probably mobilize in a matter of hours, reservists beeing faster, that still wouldnt give the Russians much time to act anyway.

Hopefully signint can give a heads up too in advance, and alert units to be prepared.
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>>36664964
>"hurrdurr it's not offensiv opereishun if u can't into force projikshun"
go fuck some sheep or what ever your kind Down Under does instead of women
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>>36674786

A Russian plane going that far into Finnish airspace... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Also, our military center and government is separated.
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>>36674786
Theres no point to even attempt airborne invasion of a _city_(more likely they would target the airfield some 30 km to the north) if they cant hurry to the rescue. It wouldnt be complete surprise even if they manage to prepare the VDV units in complete secrecy somewhere far. They need to move air units, a dozen+ MSV brigades, and do a lot of other things, including moving boomers out to the sea(because all of their Northern Fleet bases are within cruise missile range, as are airfields)
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>>36674814
fsck wrong post, meant to reply to this >>36665068
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>>36674774
It's less loyalty to the (puppet/surrendered) government you have to worry about and more career types following the next dude up the chain.
Decentralization helps here, this scenario is one in which the enemy would use every advantage it can against large un-mobilized forces and take maximal advantage of your internal policy, military policy, and politics.

I'm talking about the kind of shit that the Russian Naval Infantry pulled in Crimea, that shit was basically brilliant and bloodless and the kind of overwhelming strategic victory Russia would be looking for against it's smaller adversaries
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>>36674825
Our current government is shit, but at least those parties dont still live in the 1980s, pretend that USSR still exists and lick russkie boot(except for certain individuals), like the SDP. The two last defence ministers have been the best ever. I hope we will see Americans in our excercises 2018 too
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>>36674811
>Drive towards nearby base to mobilize and arm
>watch from your car as fast movers drop FAE onto the base
>Get to base and most of the main post buildings are a firestorm
>Look around for anyone to report to
>Eventually report to a corporal in garrison wear with an arm and half his face blown off
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>>36674825

You are comparing Finland with Ukraine??

A post soviet country with a population that would support the return of the soviets because they are dumb as fuck. A large portion of the country were ready to support Russia before crimea.

VS

A nation that fought fiercely against soviets. And the modern population which actively hates on Russia.....

Your knowledge of Europe and its politics is as strong as an Americans. I hope you actually are American and not just stupid.
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>>36674701
>Given the 20 000 angry finns in the area with rifles in their homes,I wouldnt want to be those guys.
Bolt-action fuddguns and a cowardly attitude (largely the cause of our shit-tier gun law and general lack of liberty) will ensure a futile resistance.
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>>36674838
Thats not how it works at all in Finland tho. Storages are dispersed and, most munitions and supplies are in small storages far from base. Im not sure how much I want to tell you about this, but most conscripts would never see their peacetime regiment in a mobilisation, and not much of value is there to bomb anyway.
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>>36674844
RK-62s isnt bolt guns my man. Reservists is a thing.
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>>36674853
Also the mobilization is a problem mostly just for the army. Air force needs mere hours and its readiness is regularly tested(as is army's capability to mobilize, but in much smaller scale).
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>>36674844

No-funs Finn reporting for duty.
Not our fault you are white trash and cant get a gun. My towns reservist group is 100+ some strong with gear,ammo and a large variety of RK/AK semi autos and automatic SMGs and LMGs from gun collectors.

Me, a 21 year old male already have 2 AK's to spare for anyone ready to fight with me. Not to even mention the 50 year old guys who have far more.
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>>36674839
Not at all, I'm saying Russia will try it's damndest in the future to replicate a strategic success like Crimea was.
It's also a good reminder everyone including western intelligence was caught unaware when Crimea was siezed, everyone was distracted with the shit going on in Kiev while Russia was capturing Ukranian military bases and cutting off the peninsula
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>>36674861
I dont have an AK but I have enough ammo to arm a platoon. And other funs.
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>>36674861
How large is your town? I work with recruitment for reservists in Sweden, and is curious to know how we compare
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>>36674871

Less than 20k, and this 100+ is the males you see atleast monthly on the range or training. Theres more who would train more if not for their other hobbies or busy work.
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>>36674888
Pretty similar then. We are a town with around 15 000 inhabitants, and around 100 reservists is probably correct. They train far less then yours tho it seem like.
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>>36665098
>I would rather have people with me in a fight that want to be there, trained to be there and that is THEIR JOB.
Let me tell you a not-so-secret: FDF has traditionally had two types of units planned for wartime: regional forces (bulk of the total military force, each unit operating in their designated region, of which there are/were three, would do most of the fighting to wear the enemy down) and 'operative' forces (units like the mechanized battlegroups meant for key battles once the regional forces have worn the enemy down.)

Now there is a third type: territorial forces, formed into territorial battalions (total number of which seems to be over 30), these battalions all have at least one all-volunteers -infantry company at their core (these companies, "maakuntakomppanias" or "province companies" were first founded 10-11 years ago & have been training voluntarily on a regular basis), some may have more, plus FDF is actively seeking volunteers to any and all positions in these battalions, and each of these battalions is tied to certain small area, namely province (of which there are 28, some provinces have more than one companies.)

That's a rather sizable volunteer force that *knows* the areas they will be fighting in.
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>>36674853
Russia would be much less worried about disorganized light infantry and much more concerned with bombing division and brigade HQ’s and motor pools
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>>36674902

Thats alright, considering the state of your Military at the moment. Funnily enough it also translates into the Virtual world.
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>>36674903
Same concept here in Sweden, 40 all-volonteer batallions that are allways redy, and knows their terrain/has a minimal mobilisation time. They are also territorial, and pretty well trained these days. Equipment is similar to the regular army, minus armoured vehicles.
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>>36666640
Literally the highest IQ in europe and a reminder that in a conscript military everyone gets trained including the very cream of each generation who then go to form the reserve officer core and the special forces. How many genius level people join a professional military when they can get paid a lot more working other jobs?
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>>36674910
The thing is, brigade and division HQs are probably also dispersed, mobilises from a lot of small storages and the same goes for motor pools. You dont see 50 trucks stored next o each other, for that exact reson.
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>>36674910
I wish them good luck trying, they still dont have their amraam equivalent R-77 operational and integrated and all valuable targets are deep within hostile airspace.

also lots of the valuable hardware is stored bomb and nuke proof. Not all of it, of course, and you could just bomb them once they're brought up, but for that they'd need air superiority, amd spending lots and lots of their top tier weapons against a totally secondary, if not tertiary, opponent.
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>>36674825
>Crimea

The peninsula with Russian military bases already in place vs. massive country with no meaningful Russian military presence as of writing.
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>>36665436
then they'd have to call for ceasefire starting from Friday evening so everyone can go home for the weekend.
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>>36674917

You need to step up, lately your government has been taking defence more seriously. Considering we train 20k new conscripts yearly, the army rehearses 20-35k and unofficial military organizations rehearses with 25-35k reservists.
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>>36668354
sounds about right
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>>36674941
I agree. We are stepping up too at the moment, as fast as possible given the relativly small officer corps. 4000 is trained a year today, 5000 will be trained in 2020, and 8 - 10 000 in 2023 as of the current plan. This exludes volonteer forces basic training and volonteer/standard army rehearsals.
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>>36674925
Bombs aren’t going to be all of it, naval and land based cruise missile strikes and theater ballistic missiles will play a huge role as well.

A lot of shit including storage and units are decentralized, I get it. Russia wants to take out pre- existing large concentrations of troops and equipment, ie the operational professional force and its mechanized equipment and command and control
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>>36674967
Taking out a mechanised brigade would probably still requie 1 bomb/missile per 1 -3 vehicles, even in an unmobilized state.
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>>36674974
Or, you know, a lot less than that with cluster munitions

They could also resort to denying the FDF the capability to use that equipment in any reasonable time frame via aerial denial through minelets or persistent chemical weapons
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>>36668872
topkek
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>>36674990
Cluster weapons would most likely detonate on the roof of whatever building the vehicles are stored in, doing pretty insignificant damage to an armored vehicle, even if equipped with a HEAT-warhead. Huge quantities of chemicals/mines would be an issue but then you are basically going full "we are the bad guys"-mode, and the rest of the world would hate you. Hardly anything Russia would want o achive.
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>>36675006
I think he meant cluster EFP munitions, the ones that throw out a whole bunch of EFP cans that spin while descending and fire upon finding a target
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>>36674990
It goes both ways. Finland now also has cruise missiles, MLRS unity munitions and AG weapons. Those roads across the border would be cramped.. as would be the nearby airfields.
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>>36671285
Finn here, these days every time I get a letter informing me of an exercise there's a reminder to turn off GPS from my phone when I coem to the exercise & that there's an absolute social media blackout about the exercise.
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>>36675012
Aha. Isnt those kinda rare in Russia? Or do they have quantities of those these days?
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>>36664187
>>36664348
the fuck are you talking about? we do live fires like this shit all the time, and thats at night with base of fire and maneuver elements. also not trying to knock finn-bros or anything, but this video was really underwhelming. might have just been the particular soldier who we had pov of
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>>36674564
>so at what point does the military break with the government and continue the fight?
State of National Defence Act states that when it's invoked the FDF takes orders from no-one except commander-in-chief (in fact local military commanders have the authority to detain, arrest and conscript anyone in their area, including foreigners), there's a safeguard written in that the Act is in effect for 3 months at a time & then it needs to be renewed by the Parliament.
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>>36675006
Oh cool because they have bunker busters and they put the damned things on cruise missiles.

And chemical weapon does not solely mean lethal agents. There are a fuckton of nasty persistent less than lethal gasses from CS all the way to debilitants and intoxicants that the Soviet Union developed. As well as hard to detect persistent nerve agents a step beyond VX, walk into radius around motorpool, drop dead, put on gas mask and attempt, still drop dead
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>>36675036
Holy shit commander in chief is caught in Helsinki and there are VDV Spetsnas in his home. He’s the one ordering surrender with central gov
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>>36674839
I wouldnt say actively hates. More likely distrusts the governement of Russia greatly. Granted I dont have any other contact with russians than exchange students, but in my experience only rednecks or people who have failed in their lives actively hate russians as individuals. But gypsies...
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>>36675006
>Cluster weapons would most likely detonate on the roof of whatever building the vehicles are stored in
>building
bro FDF stores tanks and other vehicles not currently in use in huge underground storage facilities excavated into bedrock, you'd need a thermonuke to even scratch the paint on the stored tanks.
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>>36675065
>Holy shit commander in chief is caught in Helsinki and there are VDV Spetsnas in his home. He’s the one ordering surrender with central gov
Sale will do no such thing, he would probably pretend to do it & then when he reaches Cief of Defence he'd appoint the general as commander-in-chief
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Oh. I just assumed they were stored dispersed, not in a large underground facility. Gives the same effect tho
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>>36674564
Not a very realistic scenario. An existential threat combined with a half millenia’s worth of distrust and hatred of Russians tends to motivate people. Any politician advocating for surrender would be commiting political and actual suicide.

The Soviets thought the Finnish commies and social democrats would join them in the Winter War, especially when they had been constantly fucked(mass executions and concentration camps) by the goverment after losing the Civil War. But turns out everyone hated the Russians even more.
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>>36675166
"Molotov's bread baskets" made the decision between burying the hatchet with the 'white butchers' & welcoming foreign invaders easy
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>>36674669
Either you had conventional follow-up, in that case we saw the preparations and were on high-alert, or you didn’t which means you just wasted all the planes required to punch through the Hornets and AA and in a few days you have two divisions of VDV completely surrounded and cut-off from supplies.

Even the increased concentration of airlift capability and escort fighters would be spotted.
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>>36674844
Reservists have assault rifles but still it would not do you well to underestimate a finn with a mosin
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>>36674921
>Estonia
surprising.
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>>36675068
I would say that
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>>36674921
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>>36674863
To be fair, the Russians were already in Crimea, they just had to step out of their bases.
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>>36675247
Estonia is a pretty high tech country with amazing school system based on articles I have read. Their population is low, so both social and tech advances (which have been taken in decently large strides after the fall of SU) get spread easily. Their mainproblem seems to be ethnic russians, who dont really integrate to the society at large but form their own communities.

Estoniabros, you are awesome and not only for your booze.
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>>36674967
The problem is that most of these facilities require a direct hit, and you have no way to guide your missiles. You’d have to waste a significant portion of your missile inventory to make any meaningful damage.
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Bump for Finland
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>>36675043
>Russia using chemical weapons of any kind on Finland
That would just force the wests hand anon, hardly something Russia wants
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>>36675032
The American CO leading the burger force in Arrow 16 specifically stated that the platoon live fires performed by the Finns were too dangerous for Burger regulations and thus he could not have such an exercise held.
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>>36664187
>>36675747
Idk about the other branches, but Marines do this kind of thing in their basic rifleman school, and then move on to more complex assault courses when they get to their unit.
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>>36674396
>Russia could already be in Helsinki before you've raised and armed 10 divisions of priors
And then what? Are they going to shoot our liberals?
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>>36675811
They get killed by special forces, police and the readiness units prepared for little green men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqnvj7w8Nis
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>>36674396
I wish someone nuked helsinki
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>>36675811
>divisions
FDF doesn't do divisions, too rigid for the Finnish doctrine, FDF does battlegroups.
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>>36674396
>>36674910
>>36674922
see
>>36675892
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>>36675892
The FDF does brigades tho, doesnt it? Or is the brigades more of a peacetime name?
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>>36676006
>Or is the brigades more of a peacetime name?
I think so, I don't recall seeing unit markers labeled "brigade" in a CnC -system the FDF uses when I we practiced using it (the system is the same one that would be used during war, meaning if a unit exist in the mobilization plans, it has a unit marker in the system)
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>>36676006
Yup. They do.
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>>36676031
Is it a computerised system or real markers on a map?
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>>36676031
>what is ”valmiusyhtymä”
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>>36676031
*not Finnish brigades anyway, the generic markers for hostile, neutral and allied forces are different...

I might be wrong, but I don't recall seeing Finnish regiment markers either, maybe the plan is to form individual battalions into regiments etc. based on what is practical in a particular scenario...
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>>36676082
computerised

>>36676084
"yhtymä", not "prikaati" or "divisioona"
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>>36676102
If its computerised Id assume you can ad/remove unit types when you want. Was it a high level system (or do you use a common system for all your forces, no matter level?) Because Id assume brigade markers would only be usefull on a national level, and perhaps doesnt exist further down the chain.
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>>36676122
>>36676082
>>36676102
Keep it clean boys.
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>>36674634
>because Russia just dropped 2+ VDV Divisions right on the Helsinki outskirts and all of a sudden they have to stare down the barrel of an AK
That's why we have the Guard Jaeger Regiment; to defend Helsinki from air and seaborne invasions. Also, it would quickly turn into bloodbath, as the paratroopers aren't getting any new supplies and reinforcements.
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>>36676102
Maavoimien valmiusyhtymät ovat prikaateja.
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>>36676122
it's a system used on all levels, and yes stuff can be added, modified and removed, though I doubt they would go into as much detail with the units they have included only to completely leave out the biggest units.
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>>36676147
Not to mention that organising and regrouping a battalion level airborne element to be ready for an assault takes roughly 2 hours. Immagine doing that with two divisions.

Would give defending Guards Jäger and reservists some time to mobilize
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>>36676200
That is really cool tho. I wish we had something similar. Is it an FDF specific product, or is it comnercial? (Aka, can we buy it?)
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>>36676144
meh, the system has been shown in the videos posted on FDF's official YouTube channel.
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>>36664145

I guess it's all relative. Professional in a sense of discipline, standardization and shit, maybe.

Yet also largely untested in the real world. In America, UK, Germany, Canada, etc if you haven't been deployed to a combat zone, you're under the command of at least a few people that have, probably several.This helps refine the training modules to a point of because the leadership knows a bit of what it being prepared for.
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>>36676214
Can you link one? I follow the FDF on YT, but havent seen it
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>>36676208
FDF specific, the one I have used is the second version, the third one seems to be under development, it's rather low-tech & has certain short-comings, but it works.
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>>36676214
Even if. I know someone might be just genuinely interested in this, but you never know with what intent. Applies to other subjects as well. Better say nothing than to accidentally say too much
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>>36676215
Beeing under command of people who has been deployed is a possibility in conscript armies too. Most nations who has conscription also has a professional force
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>>36676214
Not to the extent you've talked about it. I'm giving Fobba a hint.
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>>36676225
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foipv7iVP-c
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>>36674786
Helsinki Air Defence Regiment here. Not allowed to go to any specifics but I dont see any plausible way Russians could just magically land paras on top of Helsinki.
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>>36676252
Is that NASAMS?

Also, thats a neat way of saying we have SAMs ready 24/7 in the Helsinki area.
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>>36676252
what kind of role do you play?
I'm considering joining the norwegian SAMs team as an officer soon, want to know if you guys enjoy it
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>>36676251
Cool, thanks. So its for Battalion HQs and up judging by the film. Then brigades should be included one could assume.
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>>36676238

Buddy, far fewer of your Joes have an actual sandbox/Africa/Southcom rotation under their belt than the militaries of the other countries listed. Plus, how long are y'all conscripted? Two years? Ya really think that you're getting one up on guys on their second enlistment with schools under their belt?

US Armyfag here, have interacted with people from many militaries. Professional? Always, compared compared to Americans. Better at getting shit done? Not really. A good Joe is a good Joe, ain't a matter of origin. In your lane, properly trained, you'll meet your standard. It's just that countries with larger, better funded militaries with more time downrange are going to have a finer-tipped spear.
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>>36665789
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>>36676308
The thing is, a professional force of the same size as a conscript one is about five times as expensive, depending on how often your professional force trains. And no matter how professional they are, they still aint gonna take down a five times larger force.

The number of deployed personel might be similar for a nation using conscription/professionals to that of an only professional force. But given that the mixed one is going to be much larger, the percentage of deployed ones will of course be rater few.

Another thing to take into account is that deployments are expensive as fuck, and the money you can invest in patrolling a desert might be more usefull for other things to boost your national defence (aka buy better equipment/have more/larger exercises, rehearsing conscripts more often)

Also, see
>>36668334
>>
>>36668354
>>36668461
Out of curiosity, how much relies the finnish anti-tank doctrine on AT-mines?
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>>36676601
Go get your OSINT elsewhere, Ivanovich.
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>>36676601
let's put it this way:
in basic we practiced mining a 50-70m stretch of dirt road with a platoon, each man would bury two (that's some 50 AT-mines on that stretch of dirt road), the instruction manual issued to every conscript contains instructions for at least two different ways for a single soldier to mine the entire width of a dirt road in seconds. The Finnish AT-mine is essentially a moulded 10kg slab of TNT with a detonator, meaning they can be produced about as fast as you can pour liquid TNT into a mould & get it to solidify.
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>>36676759
on paved roads FDF would probably cover the road with gravel and bury mines in it, after encountering one such minefield the enemy would get spooked by every stretch of paved road covered in gravel.
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>>36676386

I guess the long story short is that you can't replace experience, and the closest thing is training based on experience. Especially since when you guys end up fighting the refugee hordes of Europe, it'll be very similar to what currently goes on in the AO's of most of those countries mentioned.
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>>36675747
im just telling you the reality of it. we do live fires all the fucking time with live demo, mortars, and CAS at night
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>>36676873
And I'm telling you the American CO stated that the platoon exercise performed in that situation was considered too dangerous according to USMIL regulations.
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>>36676839
>Idk what to write, lets divert from the subject into some hypothetical racewar that is never going to happen.
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>>36676879
then hes a punk bitch who is playing the officer game
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>>36676897

Aaaand he's retarded. Keep pumping up your meme army.
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>>36676247

The map he talks about is peace time information. Dont worry. t: skabs
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>>36677930
And I just wanted him to stop talking before he inadvertently leaked some STII stuff.
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>>36677930
Still with all respect herra iso herra, better say too little than too much




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