So, we all bash people who say that things like Eva or GL are "loldeep." But what series is actually worthy of the word "deep?"
Full Metal Alchemist
I think Berserk is deep. It's so deep I won't tell you why I think so if you can't already tell on your own
Nothing gets as deep as this shit.
Ergo Proxy, Lain, GitS in its many forms, and inb4 shitstorm.
"Deep" is completely subjective. However unlike "which character is the hottest lol" people actually create shitstorms over this.
This topic is already headed towards great amounts of failure and rage.
Hard to call if itsa troll
Black Lagoon got all existential in between being completely badass. That scene in the sub with the medals, especially, very deep. No pun intended.
newfag hurr, what is this?
I think its rather hard to actually name a series and give it adequate justification for being "deep" only because there are contradictions that others can offer in regards to the claim. Its also like saying that series that were made, have potential to be or were made with the purpose to have meaning outside entertainment. Its the equivalent of looking at an object, you can infinitely describe it in your own perspective but in the end does it really hold true?
Ergo Proxy? Vince was an Emo and Real was a bitch. The only saving point was Daedalus until I found out she's a he. It wasn't a story so much as someone's master's thesis, done badly.
Deep anime...on purpose or on accident?
I think OP is probably like most who is trying to look away from the failure that is "Generic" that floods the eyes of the foolish, flood the pockets of the corporations, and find something halfway decent to watch.
Lain is definitely deep. Everything in that show has some sort of philosophy behind it and it really does provoke some thought.
Go read a novel if you want deep
Agreed. It's a bullshit term used by people who believe that the intillectual merits of a series can be measured on a single axis.
Is a series "deep" because it makes you think? Well that's entirely personal. How we react to something is as much a part of ourselves as it is a part of the art. Too many series try to make people think, but in the end they actually remove the opportunity for thought by bashing you over the head with a single message. See End of Eva and the way they really tried far too hard to drive home, and explain in minutia the "message" of the series.
A better way of bringing meaning into your art is described by Joseph Conrad in Heart of Darkness: "But Marlow was not typical (if his propensity to spin yarns be excepted), and to him the meaning of an episode was not inside like a kernel but outside, enveloping the tale which brought it out only as a glow brings out a haze, in the likeness of one of these misty halos that sometimes are made visible by the spectral illumination of moonshine."
What about a series which doesn't have one clear focus or message, but instead concentrates your attention on the characters, their individual journeys and their interactions. I see so many series like this being completely dismissed because they don't try to ram a large bucket of philosophy down your throat.
Is a series "deep" because it opens itself up easily to complex analysis. Well, yes and no. On the one hand some series can clearly be interpreted on many levels more easily than others, but in doing so we must always ask ourselves whether the authors intended, or created a space for the meanings we find, or if we are simply reading into what isn't there. It's all too easy to just bullshit a bunch of commentary, and learning to tell the difference between one and the other is tricky.
End stream of consciousness rambling. This sort of thing occupies my mind a lot.
None. Anime just panders to your fantasies of being special.
As if hollywood hasnt projected films with the same values
See, that's my other problem with this whole "deep" idea. Too often what people really mean is "original" or "innovative". Maybe just "creative".
Gurren Lagann is clearly not a very thoughtful series, and in basic design it's not original, because it makes heavy use of existing tropes, but the way it uses those tropes is clever, creative, and tells a compelling story, with characters who display surprising amounts of complexity.
Lain is certainly an original and very creative series. There really isn't much out there that has managed to work with the same themes quite as successfully, except perhaps Dennou Coil (which is another example of a wonderfully creative and clever series which still uses many tried and tested tropes, by putting them to use in clever ways).
Ultimately these series succeed, not because of their intellectual qualities, but because they are well written, with strong character development, well considered stories, and a good eye for telling detail.
We lol@deep because it's a pretty stupid term to describe any work of fiction, especially cartoons.
It also conjures up images of hippies sitting around, smoking weed, reading Confucious or Buddha aloud, and saying, "Whoah, man, that's DEEP!"
Anime are only DEEP when you're high
Ergo Proxy is a series that really suffered from the whole "HAI GUYZ I FOUNDZ A BOOK ON NEECHER INNA MA LIBRAREE" problem. It was a really clever series, with interesting and well written characters (yes, Real is a bitch. Why does every lead character have to be nice? In the end she's still thoroughly engaging, and has strong character development throughout the series), some cool tricks, and an intriguing plot. The problem was that it kept trying to force a load of philosophy and sixties cultural values down our throats, instead of just allowing us to enjoy it as a creative work, and infer the ideas from the storytelling.
Ugh this thread is fail but I'll bite.
There's no series that is really that "deep" but there are some that are deep in the sense of pool with a depth of 8 feet.
Thread is full of trolls.
"DEEP" is not a term that can be used when talking about a literary work!
whether something is HOLY SHIT LIFE CHANING AND PHILOSOPHICAL depends on the viewer. Chi's Sweet Home can be derpderpderp if you overanalyze it.
Sorry but if you think this thread is full of trolls just look next door.
EVANGELION IS THE ONLY DEEP ANIME
everything else is an eva ripoff.
That's because you have to be a stoner to think that "deep" is a worthwhile piece of artistic commentary.
Evangelion? I liked it better when it was called Ideon!
> but in doing so we must always ask ourselves whether the authors intended, or created a space for the meanings we find, or if we are simply reading into what isn't there.
Why does whether or not the writer intentionally put a specific theme into a series determine how valid that theme is? If a show has meaning, then it has meaning, regardless of the writer's intent.
I'll admit that there can be a slippery slope in viewer-made meaning. Take it too far and you end up analyzing Ash, Misty, and Brock as an allegory for the holy trinity. But come on, use some fucking common sense, and it will be all right.
If we are to say that "Cartoons" cannot be looked at with any sort higher thinking than viewing, what is to say the same cannot apply to Films or Literature of any level.
So the fight boils down to, don't over analyze, and don't brush off.
And BTW, prepare for /b faggotry in about 5 min since the board is down for a bit.
Which was pretty much my argument. As you say, it's a slippery slope, but then there are actually whole schools of literary criticism built around the idea that the author has absolutely no say in what their work means.
Read up on Roland Barthes and The Death of The Author if you're interested. Basically it's all about the idea that the meaning of any given work is entirely in what the reader finds in it.
Perhaps a better way of looking at the question of themes is to ask which themes resonate across a group of people? Which themes tap into the collective unconscious, rather than the individual psyche?
In the end all media is shared culture, and shared understanding, as well as individual understanding, is an important part of how we consume it.
Agreed about series being dismissed because they don't use overtly philosophical themes to carry the story. If "deep" is analogous to "thought provoking" then a series need only contain one or two well-done scenes to qualify.
I'm not sure why a show has to emphasize some bullshit post-modern theory analysis on simulacrum or something retarded to be considered "deep".
But if you attempt to point this out, be prepared for derision.
Which is why I started this thread. "Deep" is defined by consensus.
Careful the /b's are swarming outside this thread
I think you can saw they they are equal to white complected lower class Negros actually.
I won't named the obvious ones, so instead I'll name others: Utena, and Simoun.
These series were intentionally created for you to think. Thesis papers have been written on these series. There's immense amounts of symbolism in these two, and they have been argued and analyzed to death, both by Western fans and the Japanese.
i really liked the good vs evil monologue by the yakuza daughter
the argument between rock and revy was similarily good
I must disagree with your second point. Well written scripts, be it anime, TV-shows, movies, foreign or domestic, tell a story and have many layers of meaning. The Referential Meaning is the most obvious flat and shallow that any given story has to offer:
In the Depression, a tornado takes a girl from her family’s Kansas farm to the mythical land of Oz. After a series of adventures, she returns home.
This is nothing but a bare bones plot summary, and relies solely on the spectator’s ability to identify specific items. If you give the story a bit of thought you arrive at the Explicit Meaning:
A girl dreams of leaving home to escape her troubles. Only after she leaves does she realize how much she loves her family and friends.
This is still fairly concrete, a typical answer to the request of the ‘point’ of the story. Digging deeper and beginning to truly analyze the story you arrive at one of many Implicit Meanings:
An adolescent who must soon face the adult world yearns for a return to the simple world of childhood, but she eventually accepts the demands of growing up.
This is more abstract, and open to interpretation. It assumes something more that what is explicitly stated in the presented dialogue and visuals elements. This is the point at which the spectator can apply his or her own life philosophies and experiences to the story. If you take your analysis one step further you will find the Symptomatic Meaning:
‘Meaning’ is largely a social phenomenon, and ultimately ideological. If all you see when you watch anime is “Due to a number of outrageous coincidences, a guy lives with seven other women encounter a number of problems only he can fix” than you have totally missed the point. Granted, there are some shows which have very little else to offer that their basic plot, and they can be very entertaining. But most shows at least have a “point” and meaning other that what is specifically stated.
I offer Kino no Tabi as one of the “deepest” shows I have every watched. This show forces you to consider what messages it is presenting, and apply you on ideology to the story. Of course I cannot give it universal justification, but that is the very beauty of story telling, meaning IS subjective and relative to the spectator. Of course he or she must actually apply themselves to find it.
Take a look at any movie, anime, TV show, or example of the like; you will see that not all of them tell great stories, or have much to offer in the way of meaning, but the best ones do.
Berseker is deep, altough not subtle, the messages of people not being able to control their destiny and friendship are strong and unpresidented in this kind of fashion.
Gurren Lagann is not deep, altough a great anime, it has no message or mindfuck. The only small message in the anime is that hard work always prevails, which is kinda 4th grade.
Lain is not deep, it's just dumb.
Death Note is kinda deep, the whole aspect of doing bad for good is really nice and the lack of morality is something the western entertainment could take fancy to.
tldr - no idiots, anime is not deep, read some dostojevsky and study sokrates /a/ssholes
Honestly could not have said it better myself.
Legend of Galactic Heroes
Himizu is deep.
novels are not the only forms of expression capable of being deep. and most novels don't even come close to being deep, much less good (in any sense of the word). get out of here with that bullshit.
Gurren-Lagann is the best thing sliced bread.
It is full of symbolism, philosphy, ideals and strong message about moving forward.
The concept of evolution is very strong in Gurren-Lagann, you must move forward, but you will destroy everything by doing so, will you do it?
The animation is superb, 22000 frames per episode is really serious. It's like watching five shows at the same time.
The characters are perfect. Kamina, Simon, Nia, Yoko, theu are more than chracters they are live people.
Gurren-Lagann is the anime that will define anime for centuries to come, believe it!
Take a look at this lemon. It may look like a normal lemon, but on the inside the meaning is much more complex. The ridges are obvious signs of the stress the lemon has seen. The dewdrops gathering inside of them represent the lemon's sadness and respect for the environment in which it lives. The sourness proves its wish to live and produce healthily by repelling foes.
Are you a neko?
You might want to join my neko forum
Add thread:exclude to any thread to stop script
Kino's Journey is the opposite of deep. Nothing is obscure, nothing is hidden in symbolism. Everything is laid bare for the viewer.
It's good, and it demands an attention span, but not because it's "deep".
"INTERPRETATIVE LOL" anime are cancer.
Ya it annoys me in anime. Keep that shit in literature please.
Chi's Sweet Home is the deepest recent anime I have seen. It presents situations all humans can relate to though a simplistic approach. It asks the viewer the question, is the way you view yourself the same as how others view you? It is also a coming of age story, with Chi having to cope with a new family and the loss of her mother. We observe how she sees human nature, social commentary in a way.
BLACK LAGOON MOTHERHUMPERS!!!!!!!!!!
Lucky Star symbolism is suprisingly deep. Take this scene, for example. It's a clear reference to Konata's personal search for her true sexual identity as she transitions through puberty. She begins by attempting to fit into society's accepted sexual norms, viz. the expected situation of a young woman accepting a phallic object into herself (the coronet entering her mouth) , thus satisfying her obligatory biological imperative to procreate. Miyuki clearly represents the role of society's passive-aggressive judgmental tendencies to look over Konata's shoulder.
To her confusion, however, she finds that her personal natural tendency lies in the use of her own body (i.e. her tongue) for the purpose of fulfilling a male's role in entering a yonic space; the opening of a chocolate coronet.
"I buy sausage" obviously refers to Konata's fantasies of purchasing a strap-on dildo, and using said sexual gratification aid upon one whom she loves.
The depth of the general story of Elfen Lied is that of racism, ostracization, bullying, ethnic purification, bullying, segregation and domination that has been seen present in humanity since the dawn of time.
"In persecuting those we view as 'inhuman', we thusly become less human than those we persecute". That is the message behind Elfen Lied.
The Nazi Party viewed Jews as sub-human. They ended up committing one of the most revolting inhuman acts in history. The American settlers viewed Native Americans as sub-human. Their slaughter is a scar on the face of history.
Elfen Lied just replaces Jews and Native Americans with Diclonus, and scales their numbers down to individuals rather than entire races as the examples above.
Elfen Lied also presents conflicting visions of good and evil in nearly every facet of human life, showing its opposite extremes.
Science can be used for beneficial purposes such as curing diseases, or it can be used to torture little kids with cruel experimentation in the name progress. Sex can be an expression of love between two individuals coming together, or it can be perverted and used by a pedophile to victimize a child. Lethal weapons (be it guns or Diclonus-arms) and warfare can be used to protect the innocent and save loved ones or murder the innocent and take loved ones away.
All are illustrated in Elfen Lied.
Lucy herself was an example of evil and innocence living in the same body. A monster of bloodlust crafted by the uncaring world around her, and an embodiment of her own lost innocence, both guided to the enlightenment of human emotion through friendship with those around her, eventually becoming truly human in both cognizance and definition, more so than the people in the organization who sought to capture, control, exploit or destroy her.
Chi's sweet home is outside the realm of regular thinking.
Old pasta is old. Someone should cook something similar but better. The premise is good, but the "I buy sausage" bit betrays the moldiness of it.
That almost makes me want to watch that anime.
more like this
It's all bullshit, actually.
do it yourself.
Does everyone of you still think that FLCL is just a show about adolescence and puberty ? That sounds more like GL to me. It's also about the "americanization" of Japan and how it's a good thing that Japan lost the war. Baseball, atomic bomb, rock&roll...CRYSTAL CLEAR REFERENCES. And of course, there is nothing to explain about the whole idea of a MECHA coming out of the brain of a japanese teenager (that's why I'm going to explain it). It's like how japanese imagination was stimulated and exploded in all these stuff we nowadays worship as anime/manga, and this all thanks to AMERICA (or westerns, if you don't want to make a CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT).
Legend of the Galactic Heroes is deep because it realistically displays political as well as military coherences.
you are unrelated to this
I hesitate to say this here, but it has to be done: Gurren-Lagann is, singlehandedly, the greatest literary work ever composed.
The intricate storylines and the all-too-human characters appeal directly into our hearts at the deepest level--the trials faced by the men represent the daily hardships that face us all in the present, poor Simon's efforts in progress are recognizable as memories in our own past, and Nia's sheer strength of character is something that we ALL should strive to match in our futures.
Truly, a work of art that you will find your self re-watching time and time again. Even then, you will be clamoring for more. GURREN LAGANN for LIFE!
i want to see one done on cat soup
that'd be epic pasta
come on now....at least one of you /a/non have to be majoring in philosophy
If done it would be epic.
If done well it would be godly epic.
realism != deep
all the details are well appreciated by SFfags, and it is quite thought-provoking and complex
but there is no symbolism or allegory
Elfen Lies was too damn short.
WHO THE FUCK WAS THE GUY AT THE GATE? IF SLUCY SURVIVED, HOW DID SHE SURVIVE BEING ATTACKED BY A FUCKING TANK?
Convoluted or vague does not equal deep, nor do excessive amounts of pseudophilosophy or talking.
Nyātta digs and finds an elephant made of water, which cools them off and travels with them, though the elephant eventually evaporates from the heat. God accidentally stops the flow of time and disrupts space, and the cats play with the time-frozen scenes. God turns time back on, shooting it forward and reversing it, and the cats find themselves back on their boat in the ocean. They drift into a marsh of metalic plants and creatures, coming across the flower that restores Nyāko to normal.
cat soup is the anime that lewis carrol would've made
you're an idiot, it's an anime about those with hardons for fat ugly mechas made by people to fap over fat ugly mechas
it's about as deep as a puddle, all you're seeing is a reflection of yourself
you fat ugly mecha fapper
that's the biggest rise i've seen that copypasta achieve