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Can Touma single-handedly win all five Holy Grail wars?
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no, he would die a quick painless death.
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Depends, has he faced anyone that is a strong as servants?
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He would accidentally destroy the Grail or his own servant or some shit
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>>102138733

Kazakiri is pretty much exactly what a Servant is, and he'd totally annihilate her if they touched.
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>>102138733
Uh...yeah?
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>>102138612
Servants rape Touma easily with just their speed. A servant would be able to simply dance around him and keep stabbing him to death without giving him any chance to even raise his right hand.
>>
Not the one Kiritsugu in it.
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Normal Touma, nah. At best he could take out one servant, but then all the others know about IB and to avoid it.

Touma with a broken hand would take it. Touma with the boost he had against Othinus could possibly take it.
>>
>>102138612
Shiki can kill Toumas. Discuss.
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Not the 4th, due to Kirei/Kiritsugu

Not the 5th due to Souichirou

And that's assuming he wouldn't get killed by some of the servants.
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>>102138612
Haha, of course not.
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>>102138980
mind you that he has a form of precognition that allows him to predict where attacks will hit.
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>>102139209
Touma can't win against all the servants.
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>>102139209
Precog isn't really the right word for it.

It's more like Eye of the Mind (True).

Though it's also kind of bull, since at it's peak it allowed him to slip through the gaps of a wall of explosions that explicitly didn't actually have any gaps in it.
>>
>>102138612
>implying the masters won't start working together to gangbang touma after they figured out his power
>>
>>102138612
He is an ancient loli kung-fu master who mindbroke the nice smelling, genderbent Odin and declared the war against whole world.
But he can't defeat a normal magician.
>>
>>102139293
>>102139302
mind you that that was a comment aimed at how
>>102138980
> rape Touma easily with just their speed.
>>
>>102139458
Stop it, wank. Touma can't win, servants would rape him using a normal knife just because they are waaay too fast for him.

Archer also has a Mind Eye and he still gets his ass kicked most of the time.
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>>102139306
Can't he just shake all their hands before they even figure out he's a master and win?
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>>102139518
>Rensa used her cyborg body to charge up to Kamijou at supersonic speeds. She swung the white wings on her back to the right and left simultaneously. That boy should not have been able to do anything. The speed was one problem, but she had also changed her settings to eliminate all slight changes to her expression and the surface of her body. In other words, Kamijou could not use the precognition he had gained via experience.

>However…

>Kamijou Touma’s body sank down as if they had arranged it ahead of time.

>Rensa was moving at such tremendous speed that he could never have made it in time if he had started moving after seeing what she was doing. Yet the boy accurately waited for Rensa as if he had foreseen her exact actions.
>>
Touma can't fight in the Grail war if he can't do enough magic to summon and support a Servant.
If you assume that we can ignore that, then I still don't think so.
True Assassin would kill him while he slept.
Kiritsugu would snipe his ass.
Kirei or Souichirou could beat him in a straight fight.
I think Gil could kill him too, so long as he knew about Touma's power and fought him seriously.
Hell, I think Shirou could beat him in a fistfight.
>>
Why are you bringing the servants up? Even masters can ass-rape him in 1vs1
>>
>>102139582
Fucking retard, do you seriously believe Touma can win against all the servants in a grail war?

Also, this >>102139654
>>
>>102139687
Course not. At best he could beat one of them if they don't know about IB. Once they know about it they should win fine.

Just pointing that that guy's statement in particular was wrong.
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>>102139518
and there you go
>>102139582
>>
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>arguing about such trifling things like speed
>forgetting about the most fearsome power in the universe
>forgetting about the power of the T

Get your shit together, /a/.
>>
>>102138612
He'll just be assassinated by Shirou's dad.
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>>102139770
He still can't win, wank.
>>
>>102139876
Sure he can, if he breaks his right hand.

Though that's not Touma fighting, that's Choronzon or whatever it is.
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>>102139582
well, Saber kept up with a Hypersonic jet enhanced with magic. Other servants are on par with her speed wise or even surpass her
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>>102139779
If Touma was a Servant, his Noble Phantasm would not be Imagine Breaker, it'd be Plot Armor.
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>>102139876
So by this point I know you'r illiterate and or trying to bait me, but I never said anything about him wining. How about you read the chain of posts again?

On terms of wining I think he fairs very well against some, but not others.
>>
>>102139919
What makes him so powerful with a broken hand?
I still can't see him winning.
>>
>>102139923
Rensa was using Accel's White Wings at the time, and Accel pulled out a casual mach 23 feat while using those.

Text says she was just using her cyborg body though.

Both Gunha and the Knights of England have feats of reacting to and blowing away lightning at close range, but Rensa can't really be scaled to them.
>>
Depends who's doing the writing. Plot armor too stronk
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>>102140030
i see. That would make Touma´s reflexes a walking counter against servants. Still, don´t see him doing anything against shit like gae bolg,ea or masters skilled on 1on1 combat
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>>102140016
Not broken, but sliced off.
Imagine Breaker apparently is a seal for some kind of invisible demon/dragon/loli/whatever_the_fuck_it_is that can stomp even planetbuster powerlevels.
>>
>>102140016
When his hand is ripped off, some invisible thing comes out that blew away a planet busting blast and scared the shit out of Fiamma.

Mostly it's just hype though, unless you attribute him dodging those insane crossbow bolts at the end of the Othinus fight to it.
>>
>>102138612
Kerry has guns. I'm pretty sure Touma's power doesn't stop bullets. Kerry 1 Touma 0
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>>102140250
Touma actually countered something alot like Gae Bolg, though his precog had a boost at the time.
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>>102140331
I don't think you know what Gae Bolg do exactly
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>>102140331
you mean the holy right? didn´t touma got his hand ripped off by it?
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>>102140259
But that didn't happen, it was all left implied. That's why I'm telling you he can't win. He has no feats with that.
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He would make Servants disappear by touching them.

Since they are summons.
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>>102140418
It reverses cause and effect so that the heart being pierced is a certainty.

Touma deflected Gungnir, which has "the body being pierced", "no human can oppose", and "it cannot be shot down or destroyed mid-flight" as part of it's parameters. It stops time and compresses space, then destroys the "phase" it's in (which is basically a filter over the universe), and sends the remnants and spear itself at it's opponent.
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>>102140544
Nah, Holy Right is different. It just ignores distance, speed, and durability.

And Fiamma actually chopped off his hand with some kind of sword of light.
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>>102140633
The simple fact that he deflected it means that Fate Gae Bolg >>> To aru Gungnir
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>>102140745
Or, you know, it's a feat for Touma. It's the medium of power for freaking Othinus, who fucks over the whole universe millions of times.
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>>102140571
Aleister losing his shit seems to confirm that it's completely fine to test Invisible Thing's powers, as long as it happens in some other universe.
Nevertheless, I wasn't trying to prove anything, just answered the question.
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>>102140845
Or rather shitty writing. You can't deflect something that already stabbed you.
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>>102139976

He can't be a servant, that would require him having a magical contract.
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>>102140903
Well, to answer this, I will tell you that implications don't mean shit when you're trying to use them as arguments in a power level discussion.
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>>102140971
He's already blocked the HR in the past, which hits you literally because it hits you.

IB is basically Gaia in a hand, it doesn't care.
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>>102140971

Would the curse even work on him, with his right hand and all?
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>>102140971

The idea is that the usual magic doesn't work on him due to his hand, and so it didn't have all of its proprieties if used against him, and so could be deflected.
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>>102141180
Except magic works on him as long as it directly affect his body without touching his hand
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>>102141330
Divine Punishment targets the lungs and Dainsleif targets the heart, and neither worked on him. Neither do tracking spells IIRC.
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Did NT9 really bring a renaissance for Raildex threads?
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>>102141533
It's more like NT 9, the Accel Manga, and the Parody Volumes all came at once.
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>>102139388

based Tsuchimikado
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>>102141411
>When its true power is invoked with its true name, Lancer’s crimson spear gains the outcome of already striking the heart before being thrust. It didn’t hit because it was thrust, it hit so it was thrust, an attack on destiny itself.
Gae Bolg target is destiny itself
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>>102141533
Yes. They smell nice now.
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>>102141533
Lots of new Raildex shit came out in a row like Accelerator manga, those paradies that people were waiting forever to actually get scanned, and NT9 was one of the best volumes of the series.
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>>102141594

All Touma has to do is the Pledge of Allegiance, putting his hand over his heart.

The second Gay Bulge hits, it gets destroyed.

Also,

>implying a Servant would use a Noble Phantasm against Touma

Seiba wasn't even fucking serious against Kuzuki and Touma is even less of a fighter than he is.
>>
>>102141594
IB destroys luck and the red string of fate, works on destiny just fine. Plus Othinus was messing with the timeline and happily fucking up everyone's, but Touma still kept his own personal timeline internally even when it was destroyed externally.

Hell it used to destroy everyone else's luck, before he came to the AC and Crowley presumably did something.
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>>102141648
Worst girl or the worst girl?
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>>102141594
Think you're not getting is that IB isn't a right hand that destroys the supernatural.

It's the reference point for how the world is supposed to be and work. Anything contrary to how the world really is gets destroyed.
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>>102141829
Does that mean it could fix Detroit?
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At the end of the day,
Shiki can kill servants, Touma can't.
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>single-handedly
Touma can't do shit by himself
He needs his supporting cast to save his ass and give him the opportunities to actually do anything at all
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>>102141883
Is Detroit supposed to be less of a shithole anon?
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>>102141735
If it destroyed Touma destiny how is he still alive? That some shitty writing
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>>102138612
Depends which hand he gets to use, so 50/50 chance.
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>>102141908

Except IB will kill them, not that he will ever get a chance to be able to touch them with IB
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>>102141148
>IB is basically Gaia in a hand
In that case it'll actually boost GB effect because it is Gaia that execute the stabbing part
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>>102141947

Because dying is a blessing for Touma
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Saitama can win all 5 Holy Grail wars at the same time, then solo the rest of the Nasuverse
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>>102141947
That depends on an interpretation of what "destiny" is.
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>>102142047

As long as he doesn't let Ryougi touch him then most probably.
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>>102141594
>>102140971
Even in the nasuverse you can deflect, dodge or halt Gae Bolg if you've got sufficiently high luck/a skill which would allow you to do so.

Touma has already halted weapons with capabilities matching it, and IB is literally a fixed point in the universe for how it's supposed to operate when not affected by the supernatural, magic and other reality altering abilities - it would cancel out GB's attempt to alter causality easily.
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>>102141677
But his heart has already been hit. The spear moving to hit him doesn't make a difference.
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>>102142127
Naw, Ryougi simply wouldn't see any lines.
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Didn't Archer deflect Gae Bolg with Rho Aias?
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>>102142034
Pretty sure you pulled that out of your ass. GB uses causality, Gaia is never mentioned. Hell, Gaia tries to crush Servants constantly.
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>>102138612
Karry would just shoot him.
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>>102142001
Any Noble Phantasm or servant that he touches would be negated by his hand. Touma also has spiderman like precognition when it comes to dodging attacks. He did beat a guy who made infinite gun swords so someone like Gilgamesh would not be a problem. Someone like Lancelot would be a tough one to beat if he just strafes Touma with a fighter jet. A guy like Kerry would also just drop a building on him but Touma would manage to survive that too (see when they tried to drop a space elevator on him). Overall I think his chances are pretty good, but he would need a Caster type servant to realistically win the war.
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>>102142164
Nope. You cannot deflect, dodge or halt the spear. Even if you do it makes no difference. The only defense against it is if you can change fate. End of story.
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>>102142127
>implying Saitama has death-lines
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>>102142217
Thrown version, not the thrusting version.
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>>102141908
Touma could kill literally any servant he manages to touch with IB. The problem is the vast majority are so fast he'd never be able to come close enough to do so, even if he's also able to dodge most of their attacks.

Same goes for their noble phantasms - they'd be destroyed as well, unless the base weapon was a 'real' one that just became enchanted, as opposed to one like Avalon which was made by magic.

Ultimately it'd come down to who hit who first, because Touma would probably die from the force of a Servant's attack in a single hit given the insane levels of power they're packing behind every swing.

(well, except caster. he's mostly immune to magic and they're not really adept physical fighters so in most cases he'd just curbstomp them)
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>>102142205
>>102142265

He would if you apply Nasuverse laws to him. (presuming he is human)
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>>102139779
>The washing machine said nothing.
>Its AI had no conversation functionality, so that was obvious.
>But Kanzaki Kaori heard it nonetheless.
>She heard the voice of the washing machine.
>“Kanzaki-san. I did it.”
>“~ ~ ~ ~!!”
>Tears welled up in the corners of her eyes.
>No words came to her. She merely threw Shichiten Shichitou aside and embraced the square body of the washing machine like it was a long-lost family member.

Is this the washing machine that chart is talking about
Also Kanzaki is too cute
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>>102142259
Doesn't 'changing fate' via your luck stat/whatever mean that it misses/you're able to stop it?

I was under the impression it just meant that it was basically an average spear getting chucked at you with its regular properties, instead of the bullshit causality hax, that you still had to stop. Or does it just miss entirely by itself?
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>>102142217
I think that was the thrown version. Lancer could have beaten Archer immediately after but lol nasu
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>>102142309
>Saitama
>Human
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>>102142353
Having a high luck stat means it won't pierce your heart, and will just stab you somewhere.
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>>102142259
Then explain how Archer blocked GB?
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>>102142047
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>>102142309
Look at Tohno Shiki see's Arcueid when shes at full power. The lines almost cease to exist, and he doubts he would be able to cut them. Saitama is that to the extreme. It's very likely that he would have the "minimum" of lines, or even no lines at all.
>>
Kotomine beats the shit out of Touma with Vatican kung fu.
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>>102142400
see
>>102142268
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>>102142400
It took all seven layers of Rho Aias to block the less powerful thrown version.
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>>102142400
It wasn't properly activated at the time, because lolnasu. If Lancer had gotten it off properly Archer would have been fucked without Avalon or something to save his sorry ass.
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>>102142278
Nearly all of them would have to engage in melee range though, where he has a chance to just punch through their NP and touch them on the hand. Ranged guys would probably run out of Mana before they could kill Touma.
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>>102142441
That seems logical. Though if it's post weird-ass curse heart transplant he might have some serious problems.
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>>102142365
Really?

>>102142431
Tohno's eyes =/= Ryougi's eyes
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>>102142453
Thrown version is more powerful, it's just the reversal of cause and effect is lost in order to maximize lethality. It still carries the property of always hitting which is why Rho Aius was such a bullshit godsend.
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>>102142589
Even after Sakura destroyed his fake heart he still was alive for several hours. Not that Touma would ever manage to touch Kotomine.
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>>102142617
Saitama could wreck anyone's shit
Demonbane not included
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>>102142617

Yes really, the closes explanation so far is that God dwells in Saitama's body

All of his techniques at this time are basically warm-up exercises, he exceeds the speed of light by doing side-hops
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>>102141677
Bolg hits the heart first then everything else comes after, he'd already be dead (Or badly wounded) by the time IB could kick in
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>>102142617
>Tohno's eyes =/= Ryougi's eyes
Tohno is better at killing living things while Ryougi at concepts, is Saitama a concept?
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>>102142617
You're right. Tohno's are probably a bit stronger.
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>>102142773
>Demonbane not included

Saitama is Demonbane technically
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>>102138612
Servants can't beat Touma... but Touma doesn't fight "heroes".
He'll fight the dead apostles though.
>>
>>102143014
is OPM todays version of Fist of the North Star?
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>>102143181
Unless you mean armless or Othinus-fight Touma, no clue what you're talking about.

Only Servants that'd really be at a disadvantage against Touma are Casters. Touma may be able to pull of a win against some of the others if they don't know about IB, but it'd be way less than good odds.
>>
>>102143181

That depends on how you define the word hero.
>>
Touma wins. He has Othinus on his side. She just blows the grail up without anything actually happening. Part of TouMANs power is his harem.
>>
>>102138612
>Can Touma single-handedly win all five Holy Grail wars?
>implying TouMAN has the money to leave Academy City
>>
>>102143240
It basically comes down to plot armor: Does Touma have full protagonist plot armor? Then yes, he can win. Otherwise? This is the Nasu verse, He gets a bit full of himself by defeating a caster in the first chapter and then get's his heart pierced by a lancer who has learned his secret.
>>
>>102143362
>Fukou da
>>
>>102143362
>implying Aleister won't send him there because it's part of his plan

>>102143396
Touma's plot armor (IB's curse) has it's limits.
>>
>>102143238

You could say that but substitute manliness with humour
>>
If Shirou can avoid dying instantly to servants then Touma can as well. Shirou's in a lot better shape than Touma is, physically speaking, but Touma is known for having inordinately fast reflexes as his one truly remarkable physical feat. He'd at the very least be able to avoid being skewered and sliced in two right away.

Not sure what his IB would do to NPs or the Servants themselves, but it wouldn't be good for them to find out. Not even sure if Touma could have a Command Seal put on his body. Should be fine as long as he doesn't touch it with his IB I guess.
>>
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What if Touma touches the Origin?

EVERYTHING is destroyed to nothing?
>>
>>102143617
>Not sure what his IB would do to NPs or the Servants themselves

Servants are irregularities in the world it would kill them, even more so because they are completely comprised of mana/prana
>>
>>102143617
Shirou only survives because he has a servant at first, then powerful allies later until his abilities finally let him catch up in the later parts of some chapters. Touma won't be able to summon a servant in the first place.
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>>102143617

No man. The servants are not the problem. The problem is the normal magicians who are fighting in the war. Touma can't beat those.
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>>102143688

Nothing, because the origin of is most probably part of the true world.
>>
>>102143688

Nothing happens. It will fix any issues compared to the real world but otherwise nothing.
>>
Alright, here's a question: If If Touma is put into a reality marble, does his ability still work? I mean, inside the reality marble the magic isn't "strange|, its the fundamental rules of that reality.
>>
>>102143707
Yeah that's what I thought too, but there are things that even the IB can't dispel.

>>102143717
In the long run yeah, but he's managed to survive one on one encounters with Servants. Lancer before he summoned Saber, Rider in the woods, plus he fought Archer and Gilgamesh on his own, actually fought them. Granted Archer was fucked up and Gilgamesh isn't known for his hand to hand combat skill, but still. Shirou was capable of engaging Servants without dying. He's no Kuzuki, but he got damn impressive in UBW.
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>>102143800

He could not get put into one. It won't work.
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>>102138612
If Touma has a Servant like Alucard then yea, he'll win.
And I don't mean Lancer from EXTRA
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>>102143800

It couldn't form around his arm to begin with.
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>>102143749
You kidding? Touma fights magicians for a living, he punches out a magician at least once a week.
>>
raildex sucks, fate is good
>>
>>102143854
>>102143874
But its never physically "touching" his arm in the first place, which is a requirement for it to trigger.
>>
>>102143877

These are generally intelligent mages remember
>>
>>102143877

>“I’m the kind of normal high school boy you can find anywhere. My right hand may contain a bit of a special power, but that isn’t enough to call me an expert. Even if I managed to evade a god’s attack here, I’m still me. If I fought a normal magician, I’d normally lose. My specs aren’t any higher than that.”
>>
>>102143800
IB is basically meant to destroy Reality Marbles really.

Plus it works on Esper abilities, which are basically the bastardized child of reality marbles and marble phantasms.
>>
>>102143905
>fate is good
Type Moon.
>>
>>102143911

Then he just has to touch the ground and he gets kicked out or it explodes.
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>>102143905
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>>102143800

IB would do the same thing EA does to RM's.
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>>102143858
Alucard is broken. It wouldn't be fair.
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>>102143914
But he's fought tons of "normal" magicians. And won. Easily.
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>>102143925
It's destroying the Espers "personal reality", but with reality marbles it becomes a physical reality without contradiction.
>>
>>102144012

>The joke
>your head
>>
>>102143858

He couldn't be summoned to begin with without taking Heavy hits to all of his abilities and overall strength.
>>
>>102144023
>but with reality marbles it becomes a physical reality without contradiction.
What do you think ESPer power is? It's the manifestation of their personal reality. It literally overrides actual reality according to their will.
>>
>>102144023

No. It is the base point for the real world. Anything that contradicts that world is reverted. It was how after the world was destroyed Othinius could remake the world using IB as a reference point to return everything to normal.
>>
>>102144023
>“A Magic God can distort the world as she desires. She can distort it as she wishes, but it cannot always be brought back to how it was before. Any childishly selfish wish such as making all the water running from the water pipes turn into orange juice is perfectly doable. But the more the world is distorted, the greater the danger of some kind of harmful side effects presenting themselves. And even if she tries to turn the world back to how it was, there is a danger of her no longer being able to tell exactly how the original world was after distorting it. These changes we are talking about are like changing the length of a meter or changing the weight of a gram.”

>“A world like that would be a frightening thing, wouldn’t it? Even if you can alter everything to your selfish whims, you would want some kind of insurance, wouldn’t you? The simplest way to put it would be a backup or a reference point you could use to return the world to normal. I suppose you could say your right hand is like the International Prototype Kilogram. Even if the world is utterly distorted and you can no longer recall how long a meter used to be or how heavy a gram used to be, your right hand can negate all magic, so a reference point still exists. By measuring the length, weight, and temperature of your right hand, someone who has distorted the world too greatly can recall what the original world was like. It acts as a lifeline that allows the world to be reverted to normal, no matter how far it has been distorted in any direction.”

Of course, Thor tells Touma not to trust Ollerus, and then Touma thinks later in NT 9 that Ollerus is probably full of shit. You can't trust exposition characters in Raildex.
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>>102143973
Sorry, but I'm a bit stupid apparently. What does EA stand for?
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>>102143832
>Rider in the woods

>It's just a coincidence. If the first surprise attack was blocked by coincidence, these attacks were also blocked by chance. I can't even see her movements. For me to stay alive in spite of that is nothing but pure luck.
Plot armor
>>
>>102143925
Though if we assume that Reality Marbles are local mini-filters of the world then current Touma will not be able to do much.
>>
But, the point is, Touma will never fight in the holy grail alone:
>Touma wake up on Shirou House before the war
>befriend with Shirou
>Shirou bring Lancer in his home.
>Touma defeat Lancer thanks to IM.
>Shirou summon Saber
>Rin came
>Explain shit
>Foukou da
>they form an alliance

Now, who can stop Rin, two servants AND Imagine Breaker? Will Saber and Rin fall in love with Touma?
>>
>>102144125

Enuma Elish
>>
>>102144125
Ea, Gilgamesh's weapon.
>>
>>102138612
Of course he could, He is the MC after all. All Toumafags would cry if Touma didn't win. So they gave him more plot armor.
>>
>>102144125

Nothing, i should have typed it as Ea.
>>
>>102144125
Gilga Drill.
>>
>>102139144
Touma might get outmatched by Souichirou in combat ability, but his buffs from Caster would get nulled by IB.
And Touma might moralfag Kerry into changing his ways and running away with his family, leading to Prisma Ilya world.
>>
>>102144226
>>102144196
>>102144175
>>102144163
Oh, of course. Thanks.
>>
>>102144151
>Touma defeat Lancer thanks to IM.
Touma die here
>>
>>102144137
That's pretty much how Touma's "precog" works, he evades stuff and blocks incoming attacks by the skin of his teeth, so that it seems almost by luck.And Shirou does become Archer so he likely has some kind of Mind's Eye ability even if he's not aware of it.
>>
>>102144125

EA breaks the the current reality marble the world has and shows the world in it's true form (it has a limited range of course) it also can destroy Reality marbles made by other people.

Come to think of it, IB and Ea have a few things in common
>>
Touma could defeat all of the servant by touching them but he wouldn't stand a chance against any master similar to kiritsugu or kotomine or any master that uses non magical means to fight
>>
>>102143832
Bith Lancer and Rider were going easy on him (Lancer even comments on how he expected more of a fight from a magus), and by the time of Emiya and Gil he has copied off enough of Emiya's skills to not suck in battle. A lot of people also tend to forget his self-reinforcement grants him Archer level eyesight. It is true that even early on Shirou has a good set if skills to survive the shit thrown at him though.
>>
>>102144291
of no one Doesn't know Touma's power, he has a good chance to win. Or at least to survive untile Shirou summon Saber.
>>
>>102144307

IB has taken different forms throughout time
>>
So if the espers use 'personal reality' to warp shit what do the magic users do in To aru?

I know some have magic items and shit, but how do make fire and all the rest of the shit they do?

Also, why can't magic dudes have personal reality or vice versa? I know they can't use both, but why?
>>
>>102144295
His bad luck is his plot armor.
>>
>>102144307
Ok, so that proves that reality marbles are a "fake" reality then. So Touma could indeed destroy them. Thanks!
>>
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>>102144319
What about Masters who aren't technically mana users?
>>
>>102138612
After his recent training session with Othinus he would beat anything without any effort.
You know it was basically one of these closed space training arcs.
>>
Can Gae Bolg kill Accelerator?
>>
>>102144425
He puches them.
Left acquires a loli and Right falls in love.
>>
>>102144488

Maybe? He has some trouble with magic every now and then now.
>>
>>102144380
Magicians use Idol Theory. Basically the theory is that an exact copy of something gains the original's power. So they base themselves off of mythological figures and myths, and build items based off of artifacts to get their power. Though building an exact copy is next to impossible, so it's always heavily degraded. A spell capable of destroying stars is degraded to just punching through nuclear shelters.

And magicians can become Espers if they want, but they have to give up magic. If an Esper tries to use magic, basically their circulatory system explodes. Magic was created for people who aren't Espers, so Espers can't use it.
>>
>>102144469
Stop fanwanking. Even Touma himself says that he can't beat a normal magician.
>>
>>102144359

So IB could be Ea for all we know?
>>
>>102144541
Every now and then? Literally the only time Accelerator was attacked by magic he was nearly killed.
>>
>>102144488

It would stab his heart, if he dies from that might be a different matter
>>
>>102144578
Wha?

He kicked the asses of those russian magicians. They couldn't hurt him at all.
>>
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>>102144295
>Mind's Eye ability even if he's not aware of it.
You thinking False verison. True is analysis of battle conditions, you can't be not aware of it. Only HF Shirou had it.
>>102144137
This was just a plot armor
>>
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>>102138612
HA I GET IT
>>
>>102144638
It also fills his body with thorns, including his brain. Although he could use vectors to stop the thorns I guess.
>>
>>102144638

It would stab GB actually. Would that shatter it I wonder?
>>
>>102144656
You mean the russian soldiers? Those weren't magicians.

He would have been dead in Hawaii if the US president didn't save his ass.
>>
>>102144563
But these aren't normal magicans, but legends and shit, at least on par with people like fiamma.
No problems here.
>>
>>102144563
That's just Touma being silly.

Stiyl literally isn't even a threat anymore. Touma casually beat him and Innocentius in around 5 seconds in the Endymion SS.

The issue is Touma rarely fights normal magicians, he fights the elites. The "normal" magician is the shitty Agnese nuns. His idea of a normal magician is way above what they actually are.
>>
>>102144718
Immediately afterwards, the snow around her melted and turned into a spear of water that flew towards Accelerator.

The mysterious attack was not from a bullet or a bomb.

A normal person would have been too surprised to react and simply been skewered. However, Accelerator was not bothered by it. He himself was a mass of the mysterious.

He held up his right hand, the sole area his reflection was activated on.

The water spear was smashed to pieces.

The water turned to a rainbow of light that flowed diagonally back from his right hand. It acted as a wall of pressure that knocked away 4 of 5 of Vodyanoy’s comrades.

Accelerator had blocked the attack, but he frowned.

He couldn’t figure it out.

If his reflection had succeeded, the water spear should have head straight back at Vodyanoy and pierced her arm. Instead, it had gone astray and had disintegrated into a rainbow of light. It had been an odd phenomenon. It hadn’t been something like steam created from water or ice. Accelerator had caused the reflection but he didn’t understand the process by which it had turned to light.

(…What…?)

It felt like having something you had grabbed with the tips of your fingers slipping away.

When he reflected teleportation powers, a strange phenomenon occurred in the 3 dimensional world, but this had felt entirely different.
>>
>>102144742
Well but Style almost killed him in the Movie, by using some pillars.
>>
>>102144638
Could it get past his AIM field though? That's the part I'm wondering about. Because Gae Bolg's power says it already hit his heart, so it's going to bend reality to make it happen, but it's going to pass through Accel's Personal Reality to do it, and that field is not subject to the normal laws of the universe, but to Accel's will.

It's a case of irresistible force meeting immovable object. Gae Bolg demands that Accel get his heart pierced, but Accel's power distorts reality around his body to control vectors. I guess if you explained it as Gae Bolg moving along non-real vectors that he can't understand it might work.
>>
>>102138733
He's fought a being much stronger than Servants 10000 times. Admittedly he's lost all of them, but his combat experience is definitely comparable to Servants.
>>
>>102144863
Actually much more than that.

It was 10032 times after the short interlude where they fought.

Before that it was mentioned to be millions of times IIRC.
>>
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>>102144563
>>
>>102144849
His AIM field is programmed to react to certain parameters, if something is outside of these, it can hit him.
I recomend you to read the LN.
>>
>>102144811
Point taken, I forgot about that.
>>
>>102144849

It reverses cause and effect i somewhat doubt those are Vectors.

If they are then the spear just thrusts at him normally and does jack shit
>>
>>102144913
Gah, meant 10031
>>
>>102144849
I think he'd just see the spear moving as a separate vector from the action it's taking in piercing his heart. He'd stop the spear only to notice it had stabbed him in the heart.
>>
>>102144913
>Before that it was mentioned to be millions of times IIRC.
Might be millions times, it was stated that there were so many repitions that both of them don't know anymore.
>>
Can Touma break the connection between master and servant by just bringing imagine breaker in between the two like how he can break Shokuho's telepathy lines?
>>
>>102144978
Ah, or something ridiculous happens like his heart rips itself out of his body to impale itself on the spear.
>>
>>102144916
His sword is the legendary sword Ascalon, which was used to slay Dragons.
>>
>>102145038
The connection between them isn't a line through 3D space, so holding his hand there would do nothing.
>>
>>102144978
I swear the bolg is broken as fuck
>>
>>102144845
>movie
>canon
>>
>>102140418
Why can't IB just tell the causality reversal phenomenon "no fuck of that isn't how causality works" and prevent game bolg from setting the end result ahead of time?
>>
>>102144670
UBW Shirou probably has it too since by the end he had already siphoned all he could from Archer. His fight with Gil hints at it too since Shirou was keeping perfect track of Gil even while blocking his swords and instantly swoops on the opening of Gil going for Ea.
>>
>>102145142
Who said IB only affects 3D space?
>>
>>102145194
Actually is, Kamachi wrote it.

Well, technically he wrote enough material for a full season, and they cut it down into a movie.
>>
>>102145192

It is broken as fuck and so is Cu.
>>
>>102145196
Because its already happened.
By the time IB could do anything his heart would already have been pierced
>>
>>102145196
That's actually the complete opposite of his power. His hand ensures that reality is correct according to the truth. Bolg makes the truth the fact that his heart was pierced. If anything Touma would prevent his bad luck from keeping him alive.
>>
>>102144916
What was the deal with him being able to use normal magic? Never understood that.
>>
Touma can't win shit if he's not in his own series with his plot armor in full effect.
>>
>>102145325
GRS not being able to use magic is a restriction.

Divine Mother's Mercy relieves Acqua from all restrictions and punishments.
>>
>>102145221
Nobody, but his hand wouldn't be touching the line between between the servant and the master because it isn't there.
>>
>>102145194
As canon as said ln, and yes it now is canon.
>>
>>102145322
Changing the truth doesn't do anything though.

The definition of his power is changing the truth back to the "real" truth if someone changes it. The only truth is IB's truth according to IB.
>>
>>102141829
>>102141829
Wait. Would his power cancel out roided freak's muscles, or performance-enhancing serums are not against the way the world works?
>>
>>102145322
But his luck is misfortune actually.
>>
>>102145321
Touma resists shit like that all the time though. Divine Punishment manifests in the lungs and he's immune to it, Dainslief targets the heart and he's immune to it, Gungnir always pierces the body and cannot be shot down or destroyed mid-flight and he still blocked it.
>>
>>102144849
Causality is set such that the heart is pierced from the moment the true name was spoken. The thrusting of the spear is merely a formality to confirm that fact, which is why it seems to unnaturally twist through space to make it to the heart. Even the time rewinding of fragarach doesn't make the set end result go away. I imagine that at most the spear might end up twirling around accel's barrier like a motherfucker with all Accel being able to do is constantly attempt to redirect it and delay the end result for a little before it inevitably stabs him.

Of course even if the heart is destroyed Accel probably didn't need one since he can vector his blood
>>
>>102145437
No? It's drugs, why would it?
>>
>>102145427
That the thing though. With Gae Bolg the truth was always there. According to the past your heart was going to be pierced. According to the present your heart is pierced. According to the future your heart had been pierced. Your heart being pierced at that time is a fact from the beginning of time. That's why only rewriting fate can stop it from hitting you. And Toumas hand prevents that from happening. It ridiculously OP.
>>
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Can you really stop him when he's given up his morals?

I doubt it.
>>
>>102145519
>Of course even if the heart is destroyed Accel probably didn't need one since he can vector his blood
It would kill him though since he can only use 30 minutes of power. You just have to stall him a little, which isn't hard if he is concentrating
his callculations for a process like this.
>>
Which is more unfair? Acqua as Saber or Accelerator as Berserker?
>>
>>102145575
Touma's right hand affects destiny and shit though, as shown above. Even Othinus couldn't rewrite his internal timeline, and she was fucking over the entire universe (and the changes she made were explicitly just as real as the original result).
>>
>>102138612
Fate/Zero: He'd lose, but then he would get a manly version of the Waver ending with lots of manly tears because lolplothax.

Fate/Stay: He'd lose because people die when they get Shirou'd.
>>
>>102145499
Which prevents him from dying.
>>
>>102144916
>casualy declars war against the whole world because why the fuck not
I still laugh at this
>>
Touma's luck put's Lancers to shame
>>
>>102145655
It doesn't affect destiny, it ensures the world conforms with the original truth and that destiny ISN'T affected. And that truth is that his heart has been pierced.
>>
>>102145649
Accelerator would be better as Caster.

Acqua probably rapes everyone but Gil. Physical he's superior to everyone else. He's also incredibly Divine though, so Enkidu would work on him (it's questionable if Divine Mother's Mercy would save him from it).
>>
>>102145763
No, see, destiny isn't the way the world is supposed to work. Touma's right hand destroys luck and the red string of fate.

According to IB, you're not supposed to have a destiny.
>>
>>102145694

Such is the life of the one who protects the people's smiles.

Fukou da
>>
>>102145606
Kamijou himself said he has no moral dude, he saves people just because fuck you.
>>
I think he would destroy the holy war itself
>>
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>>102143348
Then you would have to count masters as part of a servants power
And most Masters would fuck Touma up, especially ones like Kiritsugu or Kotomine
>>
>>102145763
Nah, originally, Touma's heart wasn't pierced.
>>
>>102145649
Acqua is arguably stronger than most Servants already (in top form anyway), so making him Saber is just overkill, not even Herc would stand a chance.
>>
>>102145896

Right because they are normal magicians.
>>
>>102144557
How well does it have to be known
Can I pretend to be lina inverse and invoke giga slave
>>
>>102145763
But the very fact that destiny was affected is what gae bolg pulls. It's why you need LUK which denies that destiny ahead of time. Similarly IB doesn't believe in the changing of destiny and brings it all back to the reference point.
>>
>>102145866

He still doesn't kill and he doesn't play dirty against the monsters he faces, that's what I was talking about.

Imagine him not giving a single about putting a bullet in your head without a care because you are in the way of saving someone.
>>
>>102145969
The point of Gae Bolg is that the reference point would already contain Touma's heart being pierced.
>>
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>>102145863
Will Othinus smile at him?
Man am I hyped for NT10
>>
>>102145962
You can even use it on yourself.

For example, Birdway cast her spells with the same movements, in the same way every time. So everytime she casts those spells she draws power from every time she's already cast it.

The downside is she can only cast spells in a certain way if she wants that boost.
>>
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>>102145896
Why is Saber so moe?
>>
>>102138612
Touma dies to Avenger.
>>
>>102145943
>not even Herc would stand a chance.
Archer Herc gg
>>
>>102146018
>doesn't play dirty
Are you high?
>>
>>102146056
Why doesnt everyone hop on the odin idol then.
>>
>>102145969

You are talking about Berserker Herc i would hope?
>>
>>102146117
Othinus isn't pretending to be Odin, she is Odin. She's the original others draw power from. That's why she's so impressive.

And people generally copy legends they find meaningful to themselves.
>>
>>102146047
Why would it?

IB contains the reference point for the original world. Gae Bolg rewrites that, which is what IB was meant to reverse in the first place.

Not even Othinus could fuck with that, and she's a far better time fucker than Gae Bolg's trick.
>>
>>102146117
Othinus = Odin, literally, that's the Latin name for Odin.
>>
>>102142232
That brings up a good question though: Gilgamesh's weapons aren't magical in origin; I mean sure, some of them are enchanted, but they are real physical weapons he has in magical storage. Assuming Touma could negate the magical momentum, what if Gilgamesh just dropped them from really high up in the air and let momentum carry them down?
>>
>>102146257
Touma destroys physical magical weapons as well.
>>
>>102146047
The point of IB is that out wouldn't. Because destiny didn't include it until the true name of gae bolg was invoked. IB prefers what came before the invocation as the reference point. The reference point cannot be altered, that's why it is a reference point.
>>
Why does Odin dress like a whore?
>>
>>102146251
Why did they turn the big bearded allfather into a hot witch?
>>
>>102146433
According to Haimura, he designed her that way because a God wouldn't need any protection from anything.

(It's just an excuse so he can draw skimpy girls)
>>
>>102146433
Because she is.
>>
>>102146234
I'll be honest im not up to date, but doesn't IB only affect things which he touches with his right hand ?

Wouldn't the bolgs ability be untouchable (As its already happened)
>>
>>102146234
Gae Bolg doesn't rewrite anything, it merely reverses causality. Its like throwing a ball up and then saying Touma could stop the ball from falling down with IB.
>>
Making a new post instead of quoting a huge bunch of shit.

This is about the magic/esper relationship.

Why can't they use both?

I've only watched the Index anime, but why does sunglasses/hawaiin shirt dude die from using magic and why does tougnue cross chick cough up blood for using it?

I get that espers can't use it and apparently sunglasses guy is a hybrid that was supposedly a great magic user before he quit it to be a spy. Why can't the pure magic user girl use magic in academy city? Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem like it was ever explained well.
>>
>>102146488
Touma already blocked multiple things that are 95% the same as GB. It's in the first half of the thread.
>>
>>102145961
I mainly meant because most modern magicians learn some martial arts
At least that's what Rin says when kicks the shit out of Caster
Plus Kiritsugu uses guns
>>
>>102146488
Generally, though it seems to give him passive resistance against shit like curses (divine punishment for example).

He can also block things which ignore speed and distance, and merely hit. IB relieves alot of restrictions on him.
>>
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How would you summon Batman? Assassin or Archer?
>>
>>102146551
I think it's because all the students in AC have had their brains fucked with to make them espers. Whether it worked very well or not, it precludes them from using magic.
>>
>>102146462
It's opposite, they turned a hot witch into the big bearded allfather.
>>
>>102146551
>toungnue

Fuck, that is right. Fuck that word though it is hard to spell. Not english first here.
>>
>>102146551
Because they're under different laws. Magicians undergo the same kind of reaction when they're under the "different laws" of the Imaginary Number District.
>>
>>102146620
Oh fuck again. I meant isn't right.

My team lost in hockey and I'm pissed. That is my excuse for not being able to type.
>>
>>102146257
>>102146306

If we are talking about Gilgamesh as a servant he can because the weapons are comprised of mana.

If we are talking about Gilgamesh when he was alive and Gilgamesh in Mooncell? Touma couldn't break those with IB
>>
>>102146663
>>102146620
It's cool dude, just chill.
>>
>>102146609
So why can't other people with brains that don't get fucked get damaged when in academy city?
>>
>>102146462
Thor didn't fair to well either in the nasuverse
>>
>>102146734
What?

Are you talking about Vento? Yeah, that's not explained in the anime at all. Basically Crowley used the AIM in the city to make a different set of laws in which magic doesn't work.
>>
>>102146734
>>102146650 got it, AC has a bubble of Crowley's esper stuff, the stuff he's using the Misaka Network to spread.
>>
>>102146056
Can someone Idol Theory themselves as Touma?
>>
>>102146734
They normally wouldn't. Magic has been used lots in the city past that part, but it was only because of the activation of Fuze Kazakiri and the artificial heaven.

That's what upside-down fag (Crowley) wants to enact over the entire world to eradicate magic. The 10,000 clones that survive were part of this plan.
>>
>>102146828
I guess they could, but it would be broken by the true IB. And it could be overridden by a stronger Esper as well.
>>
>>102146711
>Weapons are comprised of mana.

One could argue against that point, as archer the only NP he (Properly) has is GOB, which only links to his treasurey.

Argueably all the stuff he pulls out are the true originals (Apostilled and all).

The lad from fate/Fake was looking for the gate itself as he already had the key.
>>
>>102146782
I looked it up and it is Vento that I was talking about. I don't get why she was caughing up blood all the time when she used her magic.
>>
>>102146889
So technique Gilgamesh could fight against Touma provided he made sure to only hit him with his weapons then?
>>
>>102146889
Touma still breaks physical magical weapons though, like Curtana and the Spear.
>>
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>>102144916
>Is a saint
>Is a saint
I lost it
>>
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>>102146551
>Why can't they use both?
For espers to be epsers they have alot of shit done to them such as experimental drugs which fuck with their brains this makes it impossible for them to use magic
>“Esper powers are pretty common here. Anyone’s brain can be ‘developed’ and have the pathways open up by having ‘esperin’ injected into their veins, electrodes attached to their neck, and certain rhythms played through headphones. It can all be explained scientifically, so it’s only natural to accept, right?”

>Why can't the pure magic user girl use magic in academy city?
I don't remember this one very well but I think it was because Aleister used Last order and Kazakiri to mess up the the AIM dispersion field or something which caused magic users to recieve damage when they used their abilities
>>
>>102146173
if she is odin then why is she using idol theory
>>
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>>102146991

Not all of them have magical properties, some of them are just blank weapons.
>>
>>102146961
Or he could just pull the original IB out of his gate
>>
>>102147076

Which is Ea originally was most probably
>>
>>102147055
Idol Theory is only one way to use Magic.

There's also Crowley's method of Thelema, and Othinus's method of just being a God.
>>
>>102147055
But she doesn't.
>>
>>102147074
If they're being shot by the gate they still have momentum from the supernatural.

And Touma can block things that have supernatural momentum, like the Golem from Sherry and earth bullets from a telekinetic esper.
>>
>>102146925
The guy who floats upside down in the tank used something called AIM to summon an angel. That fucked with anyone's magic in the area.
>>
>>102147136
So what happens when touma touches her
>>
>>102147076
Wait, I guess IB would be defeated by Ea. IB ensures reality conforms to a "reference point" Ea exists as a universal constant and can literally contact with the origin of the world, changing the IB reference point or even removing IB entirely.
>>
>>102147222
It's pure author fiat whether supernatural momentum counts or not.
>>
>>102147263
OTP happens
>>
>>102147222
That's why I was saying you just drop them from really high up in the air.
>>
>>102147278
IB is a universal constant as well given NT 9. And it was capable of deflecting Gungnir, which ripped up the whole universe when it was fired.
>>
This thread in the last hundred or so posts highlights why the Index anime adaptation is so fucking terrible.

It doesn't explain shit.
>>
>>102147360
Of the mechanics, sure, but they're not super important.
>>
>>102147263
Nothing. She is called god because of her god powers. Presumably she was a human who obtained power, had done some shit in past, and people had started to view her as god.
>>
>>102147341

Gilgamesh can just summon them from all angles and fire them on him. or bind him with Enkidu
>>
>>102147353
The whole lore behind Ea though is that Ea would exist even within the reference point of IB, with the ability to touch the origin of that reality included. It exists in every possible reality and has a constant use in all of them.
>>
>>102147437
How do you just obtain power?
>>
>servants are described as gensous
>IB kanji spells gensou goroshi

how is this even a debate
>>
>>102147399
What? It skips shit that is completly intricate to what happens.
>>
>>102147463
Attacking Touma from all directions hasn't helped other people.

His "precog" is really fucking hax. Like this kind of thing.
>>102139302
>>
>>102147353

Except IB and Ea pretty much do the exact same thing when it comes to it's real usage

>>102147530
Hence Endiku.
>>
>>102147499
No clue, since we don't know what her world was like.

Magic only works like it does in Toaru because of "filters" over the true world. The true world doesn't have any magic in it.

Othinus's world had different filters, and therefore different powers. We don't know how it worked.
>>
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>>102147499
>100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups and 100 squats along with running 10 km every single day
>>
>>102147572
And IB breaks it. Not sure why it wouldn't.
>>102147477
Pretty sure Ea hasn't been stated to be universe level, and Touma can deflect things on that level (though it broke his hand).
>>
>>102146599
What would the status off batman be? I fiction he can do some pretty broken things. I guess it would depends in what version of batman is most combatible with the magus.

Like, if you summoned the Dovahkin, for example, he would take the form or from the guy with a horm helmet, or what the "player" would fell more comfortable with to play?

This would probaly brings some forgotten hero off old who most inspired the concept
>>
>>102147594
Who set up the first filters
>>
>>102147712
You just made me wonder how well will Touma fare against Daedric princes.
>>
>>102147594
Does Imagine breaker also ignore all the filters or it exists because of the filters?
>>
>>102147689

It's a normal chain without any extra properties when used against somebody that isn't divine, why would he break it?

Ea is bound to the truth that was Gaia at it's creation, so Earth when it was being formed.
>>
>>102147781
Aiwass probably, given shit from RL Thelema and her own role as absolutely superior to everyone else.

Asking where Aiwass comes from will probably run into the problems as "Where did God come from?"
>>
>>102147689
Ya, the universal thing is kinda iffy, but it states that it is it's own concept, and that it exists as itself no matter what. So, kinda universal.
>>
>>102146599
>Option C.
I'd summon him as Rider and have awesome adventures with my BatBro Bruce in the Batmobile
>>
>>102147839
It connects back to the "Pure World" IIRC.

It can be used to scrape away filters if you know what you're doing with it.
>>
>>102147839
If full potential it does, it erases them. Touma just doesn't know how to unleash it though.
>>
>>102147781
Given Kamachi's wack as fuck views, it might be Aiwass. Aleister Crowley might be some of it, since he seems to be one of the magicians that are old enough in this universe.
>>
>>102147864
>Even against non-divine targets like regular humans, it is still a Noble Phantasm nearly impossible to pry off once it has gotten a hold of them.
>>
>>102147864
IB encompasses alot more than Earth.
>>
>>102147979
Missed the point, if the first world had no magic who was even able to set up a filter
>>
>>102147992
Quoting the wiki that is full of incorrect information isn't a good idea anon.
>>
>>102148080
See
>>102147884
>>
>>102148099
But it is still a magical chain, created from magic. Just because it's only as tough as a normal chain doesn't mean it stops being magic.

If nothing else, it's magic because all of Servant Gil's shit has to be made from mana.
>>
>>102147463
Enkidu can't bind his right hand because IB would nullify it
So long as his right hand is free TouMAN can nullify the rest of Enkidu
Thetefore TouMAN can't be bound by Enkidu
>>
>>102147992
>Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Chain of Heavens [Weapon], p.066-067
>On the other hand, for Sabre, Assassin, and Archer, who had no Divinity, it was merely a strong chain.
>>
Didn't some mage state that magic arouse because of Espers?
>>
>>102148187
>all of Servant Gil's shit has to be made from mana.
>>102146889
>>
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WHat happen if TouMAN brings his friend to help him in the fight? Could they win?
>>
>>102147509
/thread
>>
>>102148233
Index said that. She stated magicians were jealous of Espers (Gemstones in particular), and created magic to gain their powers.

The whole filters thing means Othinus could have created history like that or it could have arose naturally.
>>
>>102147821
Well, if they are in Nirn he could punch then back to Oblivion at least.
>>
>>102147884
So I guess it just creates filters because its bored?
>>
>>102148233
It was not because of AC espers, but because of gemstones. Magic was around far earlier than AC existed, since a powerful magician (Crowley) founded AC.
>>
>>102148265
Gunha could.
>>
>>102148199

Except that Enkidu when used on non-divine beings is just a normal chain. can he break normal chains?
>>
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>>102148265
I like this version better
>>
>>102148362
Its as strong as a regular chain, its still a magic weapon.

If we put your theory to the likes of Excalibur then IB wouldn't do anything to it until somone used an excaliblast.
>>
>>102148504
Index is male?
>>
Crowley is still the biggest mystery in Raildex (even more than Imagine Breaker honsetly.)

Why did he give up on magic enough to want to eradicate it?
>>
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>>102148568
Might as well be with that body
>>
>>102148362
It's summoned into the world by GoB, therefore it's an unnatural aberation that Illusion Killers like IB can dispel.

I don't know where you faggots get the idea that GoB summons are original versions - 99.99999% of the equipment from Gil's era no longer exists in the world. The versions GoB spits out are copies created by the HF ritual, the same as all other NPs that come with servants are.
>>
>>102148726
That's what people are arguing though, The only magic part about Gil's abilities is the gate he opens to the treasury. The weapons in the treasury are the real deal.
>>
>>102146734
>>102146782
>>102146925
>>102147245
that shit was THOROUGHLY explained in the anime

I've only seen the anime and I wasn't confused at that part at all.
>>
>>102148824
But aren't his weapons powerful mystic artifacts?
>>
>>102138612
No way. He's too slow. And how could he attack a servant? His hand is only - defence device.
>>
>>102148824
His treasury no longer exists in the fucking world.

Therefore the treasures must be unnatural in some way another - since they don't exist anymore.

Therefore IB can shatter them.

Your bullshit is worse than the fucker's who thinks GB's reality warping can surpass IB's
>>
Can someone esplain the aeon shit in Index? Horus and what not.
>>
>>102148504
Seriously now.
Why isn't TouMAn ripped like that with all the shit he does?
>>
>>102148574
>Why did he give up on magic enough to want to eradicate it?

Maybe because it's filtered lies, while espers are true to the origin of the world.
>>
>>102149246
I sitll think this filter shit only applies to Othinus. Where the fuck was it ever applied to normal magicians?
>>
>>102148992
It doesn't matter if his treasury is unnatural, unless Touma is touching it. What matters is whether the weapons are or not. And people are arguing that they ARE the original weapons, stored independently of Gilgamesh.
>>
>>102149370
>Where the fuck was it ever applied to normal magicians?
No idea, I am too high to remember, I just read the thread.
>>
>>102149370
it never was. not once.
>>
>>102149246
So what? Why does he need to give a shit? Why doesn't he just float upside down and smoke weed forever or something? It's none of his business what other people do or believe in.
>>
>>102148992
>His treasury no longer exists
Its been lost, but it still exists.

Heck one persons back story in fate/fake (not hte best example i know) is that he's looking for it for all the fun bits contained within
>>
>>102148992
see
>>102149502

He even has the "key" to the treasury. So it (probably) does exist.
>>
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>>102138612
>single-handedly
I feel like I'm the only one who got that.
>>
>>102149246
Neither espers, nor magicians are true to the origin of the world.

Espers seek to surplant reality with their own personal version.
Magicians use idol theory to beat life into a dead horse.

It's like the difference between Reality Marbles and Marble Phantasms - both are intervening in the natural order of the world. The main difference is that espers try to supersede reality by their own strength, while magicians abuse loopholes.
>>
>>102148992
>His treasury no longer exists in the fucking world.
>Noble Phantasms (宝具, Hōgu?, Precious Tool) are "crystallized mysteries", armaments made using the imagination of humans as their core, and weapons or abilities owned by Heroic Spirits. They are the embodiment of the ultimate mysteries of a hero that symbolizes his existence through historical facts and anecdotes.
NP=/=original weapon that hero used. As long as legend exist so can NP.
>>
>>102149486
>Why doesn't he just float upside down and smoke weed forever or something?

Same reason Othinus didn't just light up a blunt and forgot her original world.
>>
>>102139209
>mind you that he has a form of precognition that allows him to predict where attacks will hit.

>klitschko comes up to him and tells this lil gook that he will knock him out with a right straight.
>somehow, the little gook kid moves at the speed of sound out of nowhere and evades the punch
>>
>>102149580
Actually, it needs to exist. There can only ever be 1 Ea, no matter what. So it at least needs to be the original.
>>
>>102149447
>people are arguing that they ARE the original weapons,
Those people are wrong. Look uo the world 'wrong' - should straighten this mess out for you

They no longer exist, same as Gil no longer exists. IB can dispel them, same as it can dispel Gil.
>>
>>102149756
You are wrong, There exists only 1 Ea and it needs to be the original. Hence, the treasurey must also still exist. Also, see: >>102149502
>>
>>102142425
>Linking OPM to teenage mastubatory fantasy like shitdex
>>
>>102149853
There exists only one excalibur too.
>>
>>102142773
>Demonbane not included

pls kill yourself, retard

and stop taking shitty wank games seriously
>>
>>102149502
>>102149580
>Using Fake to justify fanwank theories
>Implying a head nod from TM makes Fake canon
>>
>>102149756
>>102149991
Checkmate, Babylonians
>>
>>102149991
Not true at all, it could be recreated given sufficient magic etc. It comes along with the Heroic spirit, created from the Mooncell. Archer says he can nearly recreate it but the real one would destroy him if he tried(IIRC). Archer on the other hand isn't even able to interpret Ea. Ea is a concept of itself, a constant in reality. It cannot be changed or recreated.
>>
>>102149756
Except Gil in Fate was incarnated into the world so he do exist.
>>
>>102150354
Oh, a good point. He's powered completely by human souls at that point. If Touma can destroy him by touching him, then wouldn't he destroy a normal person just by touching them?
>>
>>102150464
That's the thing. Gil has physical body so Touma can do shit to him.
>>
>>102150657
*can't
>>
>>102150315
>Not true at all, it could be recreated given sufficient magic etc.
This is never mentioned.
>Archer says he can nearly recreate it but the real one would destroy him if he tried.
No he can't, he can create a incomplete version because some parts can't be recreated.
>>
>>102150315
>. Archer says he can nearly recreate it

You do realize he is bullshiting in that moment right?
>>
>>102150729
>This is never mentioned
Except for the fact that Mooncell does it all the time and it's 100% canon?

>>102150808
I didn't.
>>
>>102150860
>Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm], p.213

>In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior.

>Okay truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way.

>Well it is new animation after all and there's no reason to reject it. So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay.
>>
>>102150860
>Except for the fact that Mooncell
>Mooncell

I am sure we were talking about the magical holy grail war, not fucking Fate/extra.
>>
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>>102150860
>>102150976

Here's the page
>>
>>102151011
>Implying they're not pretty much the same thing

>Implying I have any other posts in this thread

>Implying I know what I'm talking about
>>
>>102150860

Except in the line that Archer states when he uses the attack:

>"May this light reach the king who never can be reached. Can you withstand this fragment of a true holy sword?"

>fragment
>>
>>102151077
Thanks.
>>
>>102151171
Well this anon, just made it simple>>102150976
>>102151077

Gil's weapons are magical and can be raped by IB.
>>
>>102151288
Wat? How do those prove Gils weapons are magical?
>>
>>102150976
>>102151077
So the animators basically forced his hand? Lol
>>
>>102151342
If excalibur is unique and magical and came from Arturia, then same shit with Gil.
>>
>>102151288

Inside Mooncell they are Data not Magic.
While Gilgamesh is a Servent they are magic.
When Gilgamesh was alive they are physical weapons

Simple. Touma can beat Servant Gilgamesh weapons but not the other 2. regardless he can't beat Incarnated Gilgamesh in a fist fight so it's pointless.
>>
>>102151419

Yes the animators made it and Nasu said fuck it just make it weaker and restricted to Mooncell and I'm fine with it
>>
>implying all of Gil's weapons are magical
He'd have a fucking anti-"thing hiding in IB" shield somewhere, too.
>>
>>102151432
He can beat him or has a bigger chance in fate/zero because he doesn't have a physical body there.
>>
>>102151423
That still doesn't prove anything about the treasury not actually existing, and the gate of Babylon not just connecting to it.
>>
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>>102140250
>>102146490
>>102146374

>tfw see the phrase Gae Bolg and think "wow haha those idiots had to actually copy a weapon name from FF"
>tfw I remember FF takes most of its shit from various mythologies
>tfw I realize Gae Bolg was an actual weapon in Irish Mythology and I feel like an asshole for thinking it has anything to do with my FF relic Dragoon weapon.
>>
>>102151559

To be frank if Gilgamesh shouldn't lose he could just get on Vimana and shoot from above. i don't think Touma can fly
>>
>>102151687
It's OK dude, happens to the best of us.

Know that I'll remember this till the end of my life and will constantly think back on it and laugh
>>
>>102151582
Aren't a bunch of his treasures just pre-named noble phantasms that were later used by heroes? How can that still be in his treasury?
>>
>>102151687
I got less angry the further i got into the post, so thats somthing.

At least you know better now.
>>
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>>102151880
>mfw I read the initial sentence then the spoiler
>>
>>102151959
Oh, good point. He says something like "I own them originally, so I can use them as I please". So whatever that means.
>>
>>102151559
But Zero Gil don't screw around so Touma is fucked
>>
>>102152139
No way, Touma has plot armor and you know what that does to to Gil's mind.
>>
>>102151959
>More of less, the heroes of various myths are derived from Gilgamesh's legend. As such, Gilgamesh possesses the prototypes of the Noble Phantasms that heroes carry... the original treasures from before every legend was arranged. Though it may be a paradox, unless the original, Gilgamesh, possesses it, it cannot be handed down as the Noble Phantasm possessed by the later heroes who were derived from him. When humanity was still small. Within the treasury of the king, who governed his kingdom and lived in as much luxury as he desired, was collected every single treasure in the world.
>Inside that treasury, there is the treasured swords that saved later heroes, and there is preserved the cursed swords that stole the lives of heroes.
The reason that Gilgamesh is called the King of Heroes is here. Noble Phantasms are primarily one to a any single hero. Not only does he possess an approximately infinite amount of them, he also owns the "legends" that other heroes are wake against, as if it were natural. It should be impossible for an average hero to cross swords with him.
>>
>>102152139
>>102152198

The only Gilgamesh that fucks around is F/SN and that's because his human body has made him reckless. if anything in F/Z Gilgamesh is cranky and would kill him the second Touma got on his nerves.
>>
>>102152329

Presuming that he doesn't find Touma interesting that is. of course
>>
>>102152329
He is going to go crazy once a no named kid like Touma fucks up one of his treasures though.
>>
>>102152412
So basically it comes down to:

If Touma has protagonist tier plot armor, Gil underestimates him/"finds him interesting" and it is his downfall.

Otherwise, Gil simply executes him.
>>
>>102152549
Yup, that's it.
>>
>>102152549
>If Touma has protagonist tier plot armor, Gil underestimates him/"finds him interesting" and it is his downfall.

We are talking about F/Z Gilgamesh not F/SN Gilgamesh. So he would simply just execute him then.
>>
>>102152486

So he would go nuts on him like he did with Lancelot? doesn't mean Touma would beat him because F/Z would never allow him to get in range.
>>
I imagine he would be like Lancer. Powerful as hell, but shit luck that gets him killed in the end.
>>
>>102153367
>So he would go nuts on him like he did with Lancelot?

No nuttier, Lancelot was a heroic spirit so it's crazy what he did but not by much. Now Touma doing it should make him go loco, then again he is missing his Human's in this generation are worth shit view, so not too sure.
>>
Just realized that the speech that Gil gave Broskander in their last fight could easily have been done by Touman.
>>
>>102154010
His bad luck is the only thing keeping him alive anon.

>>102154036
Still don't see how this will allow Touma to beat Gilgamesh, he doesn't fight in melee nor will he allow Touma to get into melee range

>>102154212
Then one when he is using Ea?
>>
>>102154398
Yeah. When he was all like, I will wake you up from your dream King of Conquerors.
>>
>>102154398
>Still don't see how this will allow Touma to beat Gilgamesh, he doesn't fight in melee nor will he allow Touma to get into melee range

Dude, all Touma has to do is punch him and before you know it Gil wants his D. Then Gil will be gravely hurt by Shirou/Saber and Touma will step in and protect him.
>>
>>102154534

but but how will Touma hit him? will it be a long battle like with Enkidu? will he see Touma as a second Enkidu?
>>
Wait, in what chapter(?) does Aleister lose his shit at toumas arm?
>>
>>102154627
Touma will get close by evading and breaking Enkidu then Gil will scream Masaka and get punched. At that point everything is decided the Hero Gilgamesh will be added to Touma's harem. No need to brand him a second Enkidu because Touma is Touma after all.
>>
>2014
>I'm still fucking seeing THIS thread
Good thing you didn't argue for another 400 posts worth of time about Shirou vs Touma.
>>
>>102155215
Pop the word "Touma" into your filter, also add "TouMAN". All your problems are solved.
>>
>>102155215
Please

Gilgamesh vs Touma is more interesting.
>>
Touma can just touch ilya/sakura and the holy grail is gone
>>
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Can Nanami kill every single servant?

Note if you don't kill her with your first move, you lose.
>>
>>102140292
What you an every one in this thread is forgetting, is Touma's primary power. To make every one else act like complete retards.
>>
>>102145437
Nothing unnatural about drugs. All substances find their compounds naturally.
>>
>>102140971
You're missing the point entirely. First of all, If it's thrown at the heart all he has to do is put his right hand above his heart. Secondly, everything that makes Gae Bolg Gae Bolg, is eradicated thanks to Touma's ability.
>>
>>102144098
The dude passed up the title of Magic God to save a kitten. would you listen to a guy like that?
>>
>>102144291
Lancer was immesurably cocky. Touma specialises in taking out cocky assholes.
>>
>>102144576
Wouldn't be surprising, but I doubt it. For IB to manifest itself more than once, it needs to be "born" and "die" respectively. Ea was "born" (forged, I guess? I don't really know the details) sure, but thanks to gil's hoarding, it never actually "died" and since is from Babylonian times, It was also probably make it one of Ib's earier incarnations.
>>
>>102159727

It did "die" with Gilgamesh, or a copy of it would exist in the world wouldn't it?
>>
>>102145373
But he negates all magic with his right hand. If the line is between the two, but not "There", then wouldn't his touching the air in the general vicinity negate it? It's like waving away fog to reveal a thin wire that wasn't "there" simply because you couldn't see it.
>>
Would Touma's luck be F- or unknown?
>>
>>102160432
E- or EX, depending on your point of view.
>>
>>102148302
Most likely. Aleister has to scientifically implant shit into Aiwass so that he couldn't kill himself out of boredom to find something interesting to do.
>>
Touma might be able to survive a Grail War, but he's not gonna win one on his own.

His right hand can be a powerful trump card if used right, but a trump card is only useful if it's used along with the right cards. If Touma had someone fighting alongside him that would allow him to use that trump card to its maximum potential, then he might be able to win.
>>
>>102148297
Interesting. I mean, in Oblivion, their use of magicka would be pure, right? No filters
>>
>>102138612
>Can Touma single-handedly win all five Holy Grail wars?

Well he'd better, his other hand is fucking useless.
>>
>>102146828
That loli kihara did. It was more scientific Idol Theory though.
>>
>>102138790

Lewd
>>
>>102138612
He would imagine breaker himself.
And if he's a master he can't use magic to summon a servant.
He can't participate.
>>
>>102160893
He can theoretically kill an angel if he directly touched their core.

There's probably a reason Gabriel instinctively feared that right hand.
>>
>>102160764
Wait, what does his right hand do?
Animeonlyfag, so I only know about Imagine Breaker.
>>
>>102161147
Imagine Breaker IS his right hand.
>>
>>102149630
Nice catch. Don't think it was intended though.
>>
He could probably take out a Caster servant, if we assume that IB let's him ingore the fact that Servants can't be hurt by mundane weaponry, but that relies upon said Caster being shit in close quarters - which, fortunately, most are.

Aside form that, he's fucked, since all the other Servants will be more than able to take him on without difficulty, since IB would be as effective on them as it is on Innocentius or other perpetuated spells.
>>
>>102150464
Kamachi has been a bit inconsistent with this. On one hand, Tschuchimikado says touma prolly can't negate constants like souls, heaven and leylines. however in the NT, his presence negates leylines and that's how the giant flying cross thing finds him. If I aliken a conglomeration of souls to that of AIM, he can erase Kazakiri by touching her. I imagine he could erase Gil, a collation of Souls, not AIM in the same way.
>>
>>102161740

Doesn't change the fact he has a human body still. so it shouldn't outright kill him
>>
>>102161660
Doubt it.

Getting hit by Imagine Breaker would probably be fatal for any Servant. Servants aren't like Innocentius. The Grail and Master are keeping them anchored to the planet, but they don't grant them any sort of regenerative property. If Innocentius is doused out, it'll just get reformed by the rune cards. That won't happen for a Servant.

If a Servant dies, they stay dead. Unless it's Berserker, but Touma's right hand would probably negate God Hand completely.

The issue isn't whether Touma's right hand can kill a Servant, but rather whether he can even hit one in the first place.
>>
>>102159880
I thought it was preserved in his reality marble?
>>
>>102161880
The human body was created by magic. If Touma's right hand can negate the Aureolus Dummy, then there's no reason it can't negate Gil's magically created body.
>>
>>102161740
I haven't read Index yet but
>implying characters in-universe knows how IB works
Unless Tschuchimikado is an author avatar, then you really can't trust what the character says
>>
>>102161880
Kazakiri has a Human body. It's just the instability of her core that makes her flicker in and out. I guess? honestly, not enough detail in written material to know.
>>
>>102161923
>don't grant them any sort of regenerative property
I thought that was why the Master had to provide a constant stream of prana, to keep the Servant fuelled? Master's have to consciously redirect more prana to actually heal Servants, but they do provide a degree of regeneration continuously.
>>
>>102161990
More specifically, when Touma punched the Aureolus Dummy, it cut off its direct magic feed. Without magical energy, the Aureolus Dummy was basically dead on its feet.
>>
>>102162005
That's a fair enough point. Every one in Index has been shown to know shit all
>Ollerus
>>
>>102161961

Ea, Enkidu and the Key to his Treasures were taken to the Throne with him.
>>
>>102144413
It breaks reality marbles in general, including gaias which shows the earths true form a primoridal molten wasteland were no life can exist.

So if touma's arm worked similarly the second he stepped onto earth his arm would break the RM around himself and he'd die.

On the off chance that his arm is based on the regular nasuverse rules, then his arm would do fuck all, because none of this filter crap exists. Magic is within the rules of the universe, so the only thing his arm could do would be to break reality marbles (and projections).

Trying to insert touma in any setting other than his own is a bad idea.
>>
>>102162146
There's a difference between how Servants work and how Innocentius works.

Innocentius is constantly being "created" by the Rune cards. Even if you destroy it, it'll get recreated.

Servants are different. They're not being "created" by their Masters, but merely being anchored and given magical energy. If you cut the line between the Master and Servant, such as with Rule Breaker, then that will destroy their connection permanently unless it's re-established somehow.

Imagine Breaker is likely more potent than Rule Breaker. The fact that it didn't even negate Saber's armor, which is explicitly a magical construct, shows that it's probably nowhere near as powerful.
>>
>>102161961
>In his reality marble
>>
>>102162305
Destroying filters isn't the only thing Imagine Breaker does. Where did you get this idea? Magic can create filters, but it's not exactly a filter in and of itself. It's not like Stiyl creates a new filter every time he creates a flame sword.
>>
>>102162196
I know fake isn't canon, but at least nasu looked over it. This makes it a lot more canon than what you just said, and in fake the Key is still floating around, and the treasury is presumed to still be existing.

That being said if you can give me a quote from Nasu or from the Vn saying otherwise i'll gladly apologise.
>>
>>102162430
The world itself has a filter over it to allow magic and crap to exist.
In the true world Magic and shit doesn't work which is somewhat how IB functions
>>
>>102162305
You people put way too much thought into this "filters" and "pure world" thing.

Let me ask you this, then. Imagine Breaker is supposed a product of the "pure world". But here's the question: If the "pure world" has no magic or supernatural phenomena, then why does Imagine Breaker exist? Imagine Breaker would be inherently useless in such a world. Its very existence would be a paradox.

Magic and supernatural phenomena probably existed from the very beginning. The "pure world" is merely the part of the world that's untouched by magic or religion. The pure, absolute "science" that magic has no sway over. That's what the "pure world" is. The "pure world" is not necessarily the "original world". Absolutely nothing in NT9 hints at that.
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>>102162683
>Its existance would be a paradox
Something that comforms to the rules of the universe it exists in is a paradox.

How so ?
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>>102162937
Something that negates magic only has meaning in a world where magic existed from the beginning. There's no meaning in having something like that unless magic was always a thing.

It's like with Himegami's Deep Blood. Its existence "proves" the existence of vampires. However, if vampires didn't exist, then conversely, Deep Blood wouldn't exist.

Imagine Breaker is the same. It only has meaning if there are supernatural phenomena for it to negate. So logically speaking, if Imagine Breaker is the product of a so-called "original world", then clearly magic must have existed in that original world too.
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>>102163234
It doesn't have to be, it could be the one bit of the world that the filter couldn't cover.The last remaining shard of the pure world.
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>>102163529
This is just your unfounded speculah.

And even if that were the case, that wouldn't explain how it's able to change hosts whenever its last host dies or is destroyed or whatever. Also, why would being the product of the "original world" grant it magic negating properties? That in itself is clearly a power. The idea that it "forces the original laws onto something" is patently ridiculous, because the mere fact that it can force any laws onto anything means that it's a supernatural existence.

Basically, nothing in NT9 states that the "pure world" and the "original world" are one and the same. Nothing in NT9 states that magic didn't exist from the very beginning. Everything is merely people misinterpreting Othinus' words.

You guys are no better than Ollerus.
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>>102163872
>why would being the product of the "original world" grant it magic negating properties?

Presumably because magic can't interact with "original world". I assume it's special because it's from the original, anything from the original world would have those properties.

Obviously, loli Anubis is going to tell us that Othinus was talking shit in a few volumes time, but for now speculah is healthy.
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>>102163872
Your ideas are also speculation,the above was to point out how its existance may not be a paradox.

If its a piece of the original universe that the filter couldn't cover, then why would it be destroyed with touma ?

That little piece would just keep being a little piece.

And if its a little price of the universe were magic aint shit, its not forcing its laws onto anything, its just the sole place were the filters laws aren't forced onto it.

I freely adknowledge that this may entirely be be my own thoughts, but its just the fact your going on that It MUST be a paradox, and how you can 100% know stuff about IB that hasn't been revealed yet and then call what i say speculation...yknow..bit off don't you think ?
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>>102161923
>but rather whether he can even hit one in the first place.

After reading NT9, I'm pretty sure he can reach every servant with low to mid difficulty.

-Have trained over 1 millions life, making him stronger and a much better fighter over all.

-Precog power that make peoples going at mach 23 (around 10 time faster than Saber in prana bust if a remember right) look like mere snails.

-Stop and destroy an even more broken version of Gae Bolg. (Like gae Bold needed to be even more HAX, I mean really?)

-Can somehow dodge planet busting blast/shot that would make Gate of Babylon open at 72 holes thingy look like a mild summer rain.

Seriously, post NT9 Touma seem like a huge fuck you to the Fateverse to me.
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No. It's impossible.
The first two or three were just completely unwinnable, as I recall. Not "Guys too hard too kill!" but "Whoops didn't do the ritual right, everybody loses"



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