I think I need to rant. While I still feel like Kill la Kill is great, and even this episode in of itself is a good episode, I'm getting sick and tired of tropes. Obviously, spoiler warnings. The moment Satsuki decpaitates Ragyo, I thought "Huh, if she stays dead this will be an interesting turn." But I didn't believe it. Sure, her head was cut off, but I honestly could not believe she was dead.
When the series first started, I thought to myself, "Ah, Satsuki seems like that "I'm the antagonist the hero must overcome, but I'm really working for a just and noble cause, and by the end of the series, I will be working in tandem with the protagonist" type. I hope I'm wrong." And yet, not only is this EXACTLY what has happened, but they are now sisters.
I just... I don't know. Why can't we have dramatic scenes that are unexpected, where someone suddenly kills someone else, and have it stick? Why must there be "AH HA! I wasn't really dead!" all the time? How many animes out there have a similiar feeling to, say, a Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) where you honestly feel like no one is safe througout the entire anime? Some anime might have special characters die, but it's always a grand death, a meaninful death, usually at a particular point in the series (1/4th through, 1/2 through, or the every end stretch.) You still don't believe any of the danger any of the characters are put in, and the story isn't whether or not the protagonist will make it out ok, but HOW they will make it out ok.
I don't know. Kill la Kill seemed like it was going to go against a lot of the common tropes early on, and I think I just let myself get blinded by that. Because in the end, it's falling for the same tropes every other anime or story goes through. I still think it's wonderfully animated, and still worth watching, but I'm a little disappointed in the turn of events this episode, but this disappointment doesn't just stop at Kill la Kill, but a lot of shows, comics, or movies in general.
Anyone else feel the same way?
There's already a thread up, faggot: >>102039658
Yeah but, this isn't JUST about Kill la Kill, which maybe I didn't make it clear in my rant. I'm upset at tropes in general, and was asking if there were any animes out there that truly break the mold, and are good.
>break the mold
>implying deaths in game of thrones are unpredictable
Some are, some aren't. The point is, no one is safe, with maybe one or two. It's been one of the few times when a chapter ends, and I'm genuinely worried if it ends with a character in mortal danger, because of the precedent set throughout. Sometimes it's a cop out, and the character is safe, and other times they are gone for good. But the point is, it keeps you guessing.
Yes kill la kill is so easily predicted because we on /a/ speculated 24/7 and some of our speculation turned out correct. Then we forget all the shit we got wrong so we are always right and everything is easily predictable and we all saw everything coming.
You're forgetting most of the people who die in game of thrones are normal humans.
Here we have a demi-god witch and her 2 daughters, and people with clothing that gives them superpowers.
I watch anime because I like the mold.
There are anime that break the mold. The anime that /v/ watches are not those, and thats all KLK ever was. I suppose I could spoonfeed, just this once, but Hyouge Mono is an example.
Sage for shit thread.
Some are predictable. Everyone knows Jon isn't dead, however many are not.
animation is not the same as art style.
please, do not say something so objectively wrong, it isn't animated well. You can say they've been hand with the amount of money they got, but good animation it is not. Watch redline or something to see good animation.
This is the type of poster KLK brings /a/, you doomed yourself for not pushing this show out early.
I'm not even following all the speculation people come up with. In fact, this is probably the first time in a long time I'm actively talking about anime online. These are thoughts I, personally had, while watching it.
Yes, and the same can be said for a lot of series too, but death can still be something you can use in your series. I'm just a little tied of "I'll use a technique that will defeat you, and have it displayed in such a dramatic and stylish manner, only for you to say NOPE, here's MY super awesome attack that will defeat you" trope. It's more common in shonnen sure, but I'm just tired of it.
I don't know, I feel like the molds are so over used now though, that they are cracking. I know there are anime that break the mold, but honestly how common are they?
Every episode has animation that's well done. They cut corners here and there, and mask it behind being stylish, but in reality it's just a clever way to stretch their use, but ever single episode has had well done animation. Are there BETTER animated things out there? Most certainly, but this does a good job.
Redline, is what I would call OVER animated. Where they think EVERYTHING has to be moving ALL the time, or it's lazy and not a true work of art, so things get a little crazy.
this is a post to consider.
/v/ hates kill la kill, dude. i don't know where everyone gets the idea that /v/ watches kill la kill.
>implying they'd watch anything portraying women as strong and in charge
Once again, it's objectively not well animated. When you can see the jumps and skittering, it's poorly animated. Compare how the characters move to a show like Nagi no Asukara or any Kyoani show. You can like it's art style, that's objective, but you cannot say it is well animated when that is objective and it clearly isn't. Some of the fight scenes are horrendous because of the obvious lack of funding.
so dont watch kill la kill? i think that is an easy solution.
>objectively not well animated
Do you even know what that means? Or are you just being obtuse on purpose?
There is nothing subjective about how well something is animated.
I don't think you were supposed to think Ragyo was dead when she didn't even fight, you were supposed to think that Satsuki was sort on her level but she got rekt even without a weapon.
If Ragyo was killed in this episode, it would be terrible underwheming,she is the fucking final boss.
uuhhh, yeah there is. there is no objective metric of good animation. if you honestly believe this you are retarded and probably also believe that there are objective metrics to measure music by, and should probably kill yourself.
No, its not. He complained about Satsuki not being the big bad. I don't post in KLK shit threads and that was obvious from day 1.
>I feel like the molds are so over used now though, that they are cracking
Thats because your powerlevel is so low that you don't watch good shows. You need to lurk more. Please quit posting on /a/ until you've seen a couple hundred.
I ocassionally click on boards I hate, like /co/ and /v/, just to look down on them if i've got nothing better to do. In the maybe 5 times i've looked at page 1 since KLK started airing, i've seen KLK mentioned or its images posted each time.
When people say: "/v/ likes X", they do not mean the entire board likes an anime. Most of the board hates anime because they are normalfags. They are stating that the crossposters, who admittedly are a minimum, like this anime. That is enough to recognize its shit.
If one could isolate /v/ crossposters and analyze their interest in shows airing during the season, I would consider that to be a great metric for how shit it is. I'd call it /v/-crossposter-interest-points as a unit, or VCIPs. Similar to Linkin Park Units.
>there is no objective metric of good animation.
Good god, you are a dumb.
this is like something john kricfalusi would say
Wow I can't believe there are people this retarded. Animation is not subjective at all, sorry, it's not music. It can be measured, compared and contrasted frame by frame.
They literally take stills and move/rotate them across the screen to convey movement.
They do this a lot. This is not beautiful animation. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
please show me the objective criteria for animation to meet to be considered "good animation". there is none. if any animators got together they'd disagree immediately on what they would be. a guy like john k would probably fucking despise a kyoani show
yes, that happens in the show. there are also bouts of smooth, fluid animation with a lot of flair and impact.
No, no they would not in terms of animation. There is a difference between art style and animation that you are too dumb to get.
Fluid, well done animation will be appreciated by all animators regardless of what is being animated.
>if any animators got together they'd disagree immediately on what they would be
No they wouldn't. Fuck, you are one dumb motherfucker.
>I'm getting sick and tired of tropes.
Then you're watching the wrong show.
Since episode 1, the series has worn every cliche/trope on its sleeve proudly. In an over-the-top fashion, of course.
>Fluid, well done animation will be appreciated by all animators regardless of what is being animated.
this is completely wrong. this is so wrong i don't even know what to say to you. so many different animators have different criteria for what is good animation it's not even funny. you are talking out of your ass.
go read any john k post about how the only good animation was done by chuck jones, bob clampett and himself and how anime is shit
Honestly it might not be doing anything crazy, but what it is doing, its doing it very well. You don't have to make something new if you do it well.
Go read anything about animation, and actually learn what animation is.
still waiting on those objective criteria of animation btw
disney has its 12 principles of what it considers to be good animation but still some animators think disney is bad, and not all animation follows these rules despite being "fluid and well done" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_principles_of_animation
At this point though everything is a trope, what possible combination is new? not only that but if you don't drop a few hints about your future intentions then such plot twist end up just coming off as ass pulls and actually devalue said "twist"
If you're referring to quality of the stills, or quality of the generated animation overall, then sure. But then you could measure music in an analogous fashion. The detail of a frame is similar to the quality of sound produced by the instruments or devices creating the music. How close something is to an ideal representation.
still waiting on you to leave the primordial soup, and develop a brain btw
The animation isn't an objective component. It's intimately related to the art and the universe set in whatever world you are animating. Animation isn't just how many frames there are, but more importantly how and to what degree the frames change as you go through them. If two animators were told to animate a scene in the "best" way, do you think they would both produce the same result?
i even gave you a set of principles established by a famous animation studio based on decades of animation experience to work with but i'm starting to think it's actually you who doesn't know shit about animation
You can't call a show "beautifully animated" when it's mostly shit and only beautiful on occasion.
You're flat out dumb, I'm sorry. Animation is not subjective, at all. There's good animation and bad animation.
yeah it is
Just read this, and stop being retarded.
Just give up, he knows he was wrong by now. He grouped animation with content, when it is completely separate from anything but itself. He's just trying to save some sort of face on an anonymous image board. Why? No idea.
Because it's super clever to kill the main villian you've been building up for a great deal of episodes just to pull a lolhigherpower out of nowhere.
There's different ways to build bridges too, and those can turn out objectively bad when they collapse due to strong winds.
Same goes for moving pictures. There's different ways to accomplish the same thing, and some are not so great.
you are samefagging so hard and it's hilarious. i actually linked you to an article describing principles of animation developed by a group of professional animators describing their opinion on what good animation is like, something that is totally relevant to your argument, and your response was to link me to the article on animation. you are a fucking idiot. you are a genuine fucking moron.
Here, maybe this will help you understand okay?
In music, there's two things, the music and the production. The production is how well it's recorded and mixed, which is not subjective. The music is completely subjective, it's noise and lyrics in full. A song can have bad production values objectively.
In anime, animation is the production and everything else is the music.
art doesn't serve a functional purpose though so you can't judge it compared to something designed to be used in a consistent manner what the fuck
Except you have no understanding of either articles that have been linked. KLK does not have objectively good animation. If you knew even a single thing about animation then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You are a moron who doesn't even understand how dumb he is.
>Both comments posted in the same minue
Do not respond to the idiot.
Do not pay attention to the idiot.
Report and hide the idiot.
Remove yourself from the idiot.
production is entirely subjective too. different types of production suit different needs. some artists clip the fuck out of their recordings intentionally to achieve a certain effect. some record it to sound rough and garage-y. there is no objectivity in production either. confirmed for not knowing shit about music in addition to animation
i'm not saying it has objectively good animation because objectivity in animation doesn't exist. it doesn't. there is no objective metric of animation. there literally is not. the only thing animation needs to be animation is to be pictures that move, and kill la kill fits the criteria. anything else is subjective.
No, you just don't fucking get it. There can be bad production and good production for everything you listed. You are just hopeless, grow up.
The quality of animation, as well as the quality of musical production, is dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence. That makes it subjective, end of discussion.
Now, just because something is subjective, like beauty, it does not mean there are cases where everyone you meet will say x > y, or where it seems obvious to you x > y.
no, there isn't good or bad production. if there was objectively good production then every song would be recorded and mixed the same.
>does not mean that there are
it does not mean that there aren't*
Production isn't subjective at all. Trying to make a certain sound using production is part of the music, just like purposefully changing the animation in a show for effect. How well you pull that off is the quality of production.
>Production isn't subjective at all. Trying to make a certain sound using production is part of the music
wat. the production is part of the music? so it's subjective then?
or does that mean that the music part is also objectively measured?
Producer a wants to make song sound like X but completely fucks up, the song sounds muddy as a result.
Producer b wants to make the sound sound like X and although it ruins the song for most he mixed it objectively well and the sound quality is high.
ITT: nobody knows what subjective/objective actually means
I think I need to rant. While I still feel like Kill la Kill is pretty good, and even this episode in of itself is an okay episode, I'm getting sick and tired of KlK threads.
...Can your brain really not separate such simple things? Do you think construction quality is subjective and use how good it looks as a metric?
some people aim for and enjoy muddiness though so using muddiness as a criteria for badness doesn't really work dude
>ITT: nobody knows what subjective/objective actually means
IIT: Everyone knows what it means, except for you, idiot
Yeah you're dumb, making a song sound muddy when it isn't supposed to is bad production.
Doesn't matter if you think it sounds better, it's OBJECTIVELY BAD because he COMPLETELY FUCKED UP.
You really can't separate things? Are you truly THAT dumb?
>Yeah you're dumb, making a song sound muddy when it isn't supposed to is bad production. Doesn't matter if you think it sounds better, it's OBJECTIVELY BAD because he COMPLETELY FUCKED UP.
>Doesn't matter if you think it sounds better
lol. hey if you're gonna use bridges as a retarded ass example i'm gonna go ahead and say that every invention or discovery that resulted from an accident is also objectively bad
Animation is the functional side of art, you degenerate filth. :^)
You're beyond fucking retarded. You are essentially arguing a poorly built building is well built because it looks good. Just as design isn't construction, animation isn't art style and production isn't sound.
Just because you're typing out words, doesn't make it any more coherent or valid as an argument.
art is the functional side of animation :^)
also musicians can compose one thing with one effect in mind and achieve something completely different too by accident so i guess that makes music objective by your standards but you already said music is subjective so i guess you're just retarded
animation has nothing to do with art lol
>...dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence. That makes it subjective, end of discussion.
Anon what are you doing, don't explain things so clearly we are arguing here
animation is all about looking good though
without art there would be nothing to animate
I'm going to bed. You guys have fun with the retard.
If animation is able to be objectively measured, why does Problem Solverz exist?
When in doubt, I stretch the meaning of words like "drawings" and equate them to broader concepts like "art" so I can appear less wrong to angry nerds on the internet.
I hope you and I can be friends, anon. :^)
i don't need to stretch what already fits, fellow anon. i hope that too. :^)
Well, if you build something to cut grass and it grows grass extremely well, pretty sure it's objectively bad at cutting grass and you're shit at inventing even if you fluked out.
Just like if you were supposed to clear a songs noise up and ending up polluting it more. Even if it sounds great to many people (subjective) you (objectively) are a bad producer because you did the exact opposite of what you were trying to do.
Now, this analogy doesn't translate as well to animation, where it's even more black and white. It's all about how many frames you put in a second, how fluid it is. That is the definition of animation, you not liking how it looks or maybe being freaked out by it's smoothness or not liking it's content, doesn't matter that's all subjective. Objectively, it is well animated.
>nice drawing son, now how about you make some actual art you faggot :^)
> It's all about how many frames you put in a second, how fluid it is.
So if it's just random images flickering faster than you can process them, it's objectively the best animation?
Are you sure the way the drawings change from frame to frame has nothing to do with it?
You're talking to multiple people.
My bridge example was fucking fantastic. Get rekt.
>It's all about how many frames you put in a second, how fluid it is. That is the definition of animation, you not liking how it looks or maybe being freaked out by it's smoothness or not liking it's content, doesn't matter that's all subjective. Objectively, it is well animated.
So basically what you're saying is that autotween-heavy flash cartoons are objectively the best animated cartoons around.
Based Canada, saving animation from the horrors of Japan's shitty low-framerate animation.
Okay have fun being retarded, don't know why people would respond to you.
My fault for entering the thread.
>It's all about how many frames you put in a second, how fluid it is.
errr...you've seen an animation before, right? you know that animators will often use a small amount of frames to convey things like speed and impact of an action like a limb movement, right?
nah it was kind of dumb you gotta admit. i like your moxie though
Yes, bad animation will do that.
>how many frames you put in a second, how fluid it is. That is the definition of animation
Another retard desperately trying to an equate an actual objective measure like frame rate to something subjective like animation quality
>Yes, bad animation will do that.
and with that, you have been exposed. thank you
bitch you tellin me you ain't never seen mitsuo iso's work
Yes yes, hurry and make your scurrying retreat, we get it you need to lick your wounds, no worries just try not to be retarded in the future.
If you knew anything about animation, you'd know the different bases that many anime are animated around, a certain number of drawn frames.
you've sure proven the definition of anime is the fps.
>I'm just a little tied of "I'll use a technique that will defeat you, and have it displayed in such a dramatic and stylish manner, only for you to say NOPE, here's MY super awesome attack that will defeat you" trope.
Well honestly, what do you expect from an anime that's gonna be only 24 episodes long, plus an OVA?
The story could be exploitable and extended, but when you have a short range of episodes to tell the full story you need to resort to do the "super special attack that will kill you" to get things over with.
You guys keep throwing around objective! subjective!, but really, in the context of what you're arguing that doesn't even matter. To say that something has a quantifiable metric is enough. If it can be measured, it can be compared. That's... actually the whole point of measuring, in general.
In the case of animation, you have measurable quantities like framerate, color, polygon-count (with CG), etc. But those are all technical aspects. I don't know how you would measure or even account for things that deal with content or style. Like saying "using this style of animation in this series was a better choice than [alternative] because [reason]". Where reason != "it looked good". "It was more efficient" would work, but only the studio gives a shit about that.
on the 2's, 3's, you'd know these terms if you knew what you were talking about.
Kyoani shows are animated on 1's and uses a lot of unique frames
KLK animated on 2's with few unique frames
Yeah you're a dumb fuck that doesn't understand what animation is.
Okay, friend. Success is also subjective. You are winning at internet arguments in your own opinion and that's all that matters! :^)
KlK isn't very good
but I guess it's just ironic
or I don't like fun
or some stuff about 80s echi
Has to do with exposure really. If you've been eating pizza for a week, it's gonna taste worse on the 8th day than for someone else who's been eating tacos and burgers.
I haven't watched a mindless shonen type anime for years, so it seems somewhat fresh.
Thanks friend. You have a different opinion on my internet argument and that's alright. I hope you enjoy having it, even if other people might think it's wrong. :^)
KLK's distinct lack of animation is charismatic in a way that I find really fun to look at. Which is kind of the whole point, isn't it?
>no response to cold hard facts
subjectivefags getting BTFO
Time to watch some anime
but it's just the "more drawings = fluid and objectively better" argument rehashed in terms you just looked up to make yourself seem smarter. why would we respond
Quality thread, guys.
>what are the 12 principles of animation
tip top lellipopz, thank you doc for the daily dose of AUTISM
seriously though, I'm saving your post for future baitings
I don't know why you would get upset at a show that has always been used tropes for comedic effect and pushed them over the top. It's always been like this. If anything this episode was less tropey and predictable than most. Look at all the speculation on /a/. Everybody thought that Satsuki had just fallen into Ragyo's plan and that her whole plan was retarded, but the plan was almost perfectly executed and Ragyo only won by overpowering her.
>How many animes out there have a similiar feeling to, say, a Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) where you honestly feel like no one is safe througout the entire anime?
Except for Dany and Jon and Tyrion. I've never actually felt like they would ever die and they probably won't until the very end.
It's a shounen show, what did you expect
>KILL la KILL
>no ones gets killed
Why is this not in the containment thread?
>I just... I don't know. Why can't we have dramatic scenes that are unexpected, where someone suddenly kills someone else, and have it stick?
Because Kaminafags would start crying again.
I was actually kind of hoping it would confirm Satsuki dead after that beating. But nope, plot armour lets even normal human beans with no super clothes take a throw so hard they leave a hole in the wall.
>But nope, plot armour lets even normal human beans with no super clothes take a throw so hard they leave a hole in the wall.
Nobody has died in the show though. They've all lived even without life fibers.
in gurren lagaann Kamina daeth was inexpected.
I couldn't believe he was really dead at the end of the episode.
Gantz is for you then, well at least the anime version.
The manga until that dino mission.
>mfw I predicted by saying Satsuki and Ryuuko are sisters and would proceed to kiss eachother in an earlier KLK thread
now we wait
to be honest if you watched several shonen anime you should know that antagonists don't stay dead until the end of the series even if their heads are cut off
I don't really like the trope, but it shows that Ragyou is one of those people who are 2strong4u
I didn't really expect her taking Junketsu, I like that she went back to her old hairstyle
>currently watching TTGL
>only 2 episodes in
I guess I should've heeded the spoiler.