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You know, I've been talking about him quite a bit but none of it ever gets picked up. I guess this speaks to where he is, his status right now. Its become some kind of taboo [to critize him].

For a movie directior, that's not a good thing. It seems, like for the media, there is no profit to be had in criticizing him. As long as he's seen as this great person, no one will criticize him and I feel sorry for him for that. While I've been saying bad things about him over and over and I feel like if I were to disappear, nobody would ever criticize him for anything ever again, I don't think any of it reaches him or he ignores it. The people all around me are quite fed up about it. I think its all Toshio Suzuki's fault though. Maybe 90% of it. The remaining 10% is probably Miya-san himself noticing it.

When I first met him, it was just after Lupin the Third Castle of Cagliostoro and it was, like, a director who says "I've made something incredible", you can see how free he was. "But it was fun" he says.

But now, because of the expectations and stuff, he's basically been play-acting himself now. If you do that over and over you'l be copying yourself over and over. But he doesn't like that.

He'll say "copying is bad" but I don't think its that big of a deal. That's why he is so isolated right now. If an isolated person comes down, that person would probably be quite different from what the world considers a normal human. I've known him for 20 years though.
>>
He's an insane person but that insanity is what's good about him. Don't make it about his personality or how he's a master. I think what would be good for him would be some kind of scandal. Just once and I think he'll be quite free to work after that.

What I mean is that, I want to see his dark side and I wish he'd let it out. During Howl's Moving Castle I thought we saw a glimpse of it and I thought "Will he go there?" and that's why I liked the movie. But then he just went back after that. That's why Ponyo on the Cliff is the worst I feel.

It was supposedly about loving that part of yourself but if seen from another perspective, it becomes quite grotesque. But I guess, he didn't notice it or there wasn't an opportunity to do so. Its quite a grotesque story.

I think I'm quite a bit luckier than him since I only sell something like 1/100 of what Miya-san sells but I got lucky that there is an overseas market for my works so I get to continue working. So eventually, I have the choice to eventually be a director who doesn't sell. I don't mind being that. I'd rather be a director who doesn't sell versus a director who can't shoot. The ideal for any director is to be one who doesn't sell but can shoot.
>>
>>102000828
>>102000851

Source?
>>
>>102000828
>>102000851
Really interesting. Am impress.
>>
>>102000954
It was from a year, he had some nico webcast that could be translated as 'Mamoru Oshii Pisses Off the World"
>>
>>102001061
*year ago
>>
>>102000828
>You know, I've been talking about him quite a bit but none of it ever gets picked up. I guess this speaks to where he is, his status right now. Its become some kind of taboo [to critize him].
>For a movie directior, that's not a good thing. It seems, like for the media, there is no profit to be had in criticizing him. As long as he's seen as this great person, no one will criticize him and I feel sorry for him for that. While I've been saying bad things about him over and over and I feel like if I were to disappear, nobody would ever criticize him for anything ever again, I don't think any of it reaches him or he ignores it.
100% Agree. Miyazaki has become an old, biased, codgety old man and everyone around him has just let it happen.

He doesn't take risks anymore, he doesn't do anything grotesque, he's stuck to playing it safe, complaining about anime, and hasn't done anything nearly as good as even howl's moving castle in forever.

And I considered Howl's moving castle to be one of his "worse" movies.
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>>102000828
Based fucking Oshii
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>>102001164
so he's like the George Lucas of Japan?
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>>102001164
It seems like once people reach that level of success they often fall into a sort of creative complacency. It makes sense, he's in a position where you can make commercial success after success and no one is going to tell you shit
>>
>>102001330
this.
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>>102001330
It is the opportunity cost placed upon him. Kind of like when you are young, if you fuck up it isn't a big deal because you aren't supporting a wife and children. You are receiving no big benefit that you must keep and could possibly lose. But when you get huge, that places a huge opportunity cost on you, and now you either do what sells or you know you will lose money. So every time you want to get creative, you are hamstrung by knowing you will lose money. For a smaller director, it is a lesser risk. For you, it is much larger.

Miyazaki is just like Anno now, talent going to waste over their inability to break the mold.
>>
>>102001330
>It seems like once people reach that level of success they often fall into a sort of creative complacency.

I would kind of hope that once people elevated themselves to that kind of financial success they would have the resources and money to actually do whatever they wanted to instead of what was just "successful" or whatever.

Like, OLD miyazaki was objectively amazing: spirited away, princess mononoke, my neighbor totoro, fucking PORCO ROSSO.

All of those movies were just classics. Just absolute GEMS.

Now we have Borrower Arrietty, Ponyo... Even up on poppy hill was kind of lacking in substance.. they all just seem so.....I dunno, dispirited? They're not interesting? They don't seem to bring anything new to the table.

Like, did he just get old?
>>
>>102001516
Pretty sure Poppy Hill is by the junior Miyazaki.
>>
>>102001516
Opportunity cost bro. Read >>102001475

When he was young, creativity and doing something different brought him money and success. Now, he knows he has a very good chance of losing a lot of money and fail.
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>>102001282
That's Anno
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>>102001516

>old Miyazaki
>Mononoke
>Spirited Away

He was already 25-35 years into his career by the time he made those movies. And you could say Spirited Away was the very start of his 'complacency'.

Oshii is one of my favorite directors, but I don't agree with him about Ponyo being bad. He's very bias in his remarks here and I feel its the same exact issue as most of the kids here on 4chan. It just wasn't the movie HE wanted. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good movie. It targeted a different market (general audiences, mostly adult parents). While Oshii movies obviously target a whole different market (teenagers and adults who like psychological thrillers).

Not that many people on 4chan will care about the truth and will still continue hating on Ponyo. And will just use this as an excuse to hate on Miyazaki.
>>
>>102000828
He is retired so ultimately it doesn't matter anymore unless he comes back. Which might very well happen.
>>102001739
It wasn't bad but it was unremarkable, I think that's the thing with him, no one turned on him because he never actually became bad, just unremarkable.
>>
>>102000828
>>102000851
I agree with Oshii on this. No one ever attacks Miyazaki, so what surrounds him is a cult of people who think he can do nothing wrong. That's how you get a lot people thinking that everything at ghibli is directed by Miyazaki.
In some ways, Miyazaki has been pretty detrimental for anime in the west. The only anime movies that most western critics will pay attention and take seriously are by Miyazaki and Ghibli. I guess to a lesser extent,Oshii and Hosoda are the few other anime directors that Western critics pay attention too. But still Miyazaki has this mystic that is very unhealthy for him and others. You can't have serious discussion critizing Miyazaki without serious backlash from the zealots defending him.

I think Miyazaki is a competent director and a couple of things he directed I have really enjoyed. But he repeats himself a lot. I still think his best work are his lesser works like Future Boy Conan, On Your Mark or his Lupin Film.

>>102001640
But Anno has serious talent at some point. George Lucas was good with technical aspects but I don't think he was all that great as a director. Look that the original Star War movies, he was usually a producer, not a director. Anno both had animating and directing chops. But probably like Lucas, he was surrounded by other talent people in his career.

>>102001739
I really enjoy Ponyo. Maybe because it was 3 am when I watched it and Tina Fey.
>>
>>102001947

>watched the dub

Opinion invalidated. You didn't watch a Miyazaki movie. You watched a Disney movie.
>>
>>102001947
Lucas did more than Star Wars.
>>
Did anyone ever think that no one really wanted to critisize Miyazaki? People critisize tons of successful people even if the movies do well, like Cameron for Avatar or Lucas for Star Wars. But people didn't critisize Miyazaki because well, his movies were still good.

The only people who don't like Ponyo and Howl's are the people who expect all his movies to be action flicks like Nausicaa and Mononoke.
>>
>>102002081

>Lucas did more than Star Wars.

Yeah, he ruined Indiana Jones and a bunch of unmemorable other stuff.
>>
>>102002127
There is also the issue that Miyazaki is an old man. I know it is a stereotype, but I think it might be a bit much to ask a grandfather to re-invent himself.
>>
>>102002127
No one is actually out to diss him or deny that he is one of the great ones. But healthy criticism should always be appreciated. I think pointing out that he might fallen to complacency falls under that.
>>
>>102002081
I don't really see what so special about American Graffiti. I haven't seen his short films though.

>>102002054
I don't see much of a difference, especially with the tone of the story. It was even lighter take on the Hans Christian Andersen's tale than the Disney version. I seen every other Miyazaki film subbed so I don't think there was that much of a difference.
>>
Sorry Miyazaki, Frozen was better.
>>
>What I mean is that, I want to see his dark side and I wish he'd let it out. During Howl's Moving Castle I thought we saw a glimpse of it and I thought "Will he go there?" and that's why I liked the movie. But then he just went back after that. That's why Ponyo on the Cliff is the worst I feel.

Goddamn, Oshii has fucking spectacular taste.
>>
>>102002127
>The only people who don't like Ponyo and Howl's are the people who expect all his movies to be action flicks like Nausicaa and Mononoke.
Funny, only Miyazaki work I enjoyed was Howl. The fan cult surrounding the old coot is also ridiculous.
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>>102002539
Howl's isn't good.
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>>102002577
Bad taste. Howl's is simply bad. And Miyazaki is easily better than the vast majority of anime directors. Maybe even the best.
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>>102002127
No, people who dislike Ponyo are people who don't eat whatever shit Miyazaki makes.

Ponyo was absolutely atrocious. Especially considering it was made just after Miyazaki's peak with Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away and Howl.

Ponyo was the death of his career.
>>
>>102002635
I never said Howl was good, I just happened to enjoy it. His works just don't strike me, that's all anon.
>>
>>102002718
If you dislike Totoro then you have bad taste.

What are your favorite anime or directors?
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>>102001947
>But Anno has serious talent at some point. George Lucas was good with technical aspects but I don't think he was all that great as a director

it's ridiculous to say that miyazaki was never what people think of him now; the whole point is that he lost the touch, not that he is and always was a hack
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>>102002127

Ponyo was boring and unremarkable.

Ponyo was boring and unremarkable because -I- am at least holding it to the standards set by his other movies and frankly it just doesn't hold up.

His old works were absolutely amazing.
He new stuff is GOOD, but compared to his old work it's so.. it's just so unremarkable.

>>102001918
This guy says it best.
Miyazaki is still great by all means, but he just isn't.. he just isn't as good as he used to be? And I think it's time we kind of recognized that before we get dissapointed or god forbid he becomes a sacred cow?
>>
>>102002640
>Ponyo bad
>Not a testament to what animation can do when done with a correct method
>>
>Ponyo
>Ponyo
>Ponyo
His only more recent movie was The Wind Rises.
>>
>>102002749
I like Zipang, Hyouge Mono, and pretty much anything to do with /ak/ (GuP, Upotte, So Ra No Wo To, etc), mostly a history and war nut but overall watch anything that airs nowdays. For reference: I grew up watching anime like Lupin, Speed Racer, and Galaxy Railway.

As for directors... I never really cared for directors and VAs. Seems silly with all the time invested into anime and manga, but I only care about the works themselves.
>>
>>102002751
Reread the post you're quoting.
>>
>>102002640

>The only people who don't like Ponyo and Howl's are the people who expect all his movies to be action flicks like Nausicaa and Mononoke.
>Ponyo was absolutely atrocious. Especially considering it was made just after Miyazaki's peak with Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away and Howl.

Good job proving his exact point.

Ponyo was made to be a movie to appeal to parents of children. Just because a movie doesn't appeal to you doesn't make it bad. Someday when you grow up you'll realize this. Oh wait....
>>
>>102002888
I'm a bit like you, but there's a few names worth noticing.
>>
>>102002888
So you're just a manchild. Good for you.
>>
>>102002908
he's saying miyazaki is more technically talented than otherwise
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>>102002945
But I liked Miyazaki's other kids' movies like Totoro and Kiki.

And Nausicaa was a pretty shit adaptation.
>>
>>102002974
Nonsense.
>>
>>102002974
I said to reread it.
>>
>>102003032
i did, so are you going to correct me
>>
But he is right in that Miyazaki should direct something dark, well I don't know that, but don't you think it'd be interesting
>>
>>102003065
Mononoke Hime was dark.
>>
>>102002539

>Goddamn, Oshii has fucking spectacular taste.

Not really. Oshii is basically just foaming at the mouth that Miyazaki might have finally made a 'dark' movie like his. But then had a pouting fit when he went back to making 'kid friendly' movies with Ponyo.

He's basically speaking exactly like all the Adlut Swim idiots here on /a/ who are alwauys bitching about Miyazaki having 'lost his edge'. The trouble is, all these idiots are bitching about Miyazaki not appealing to them there's a difference between not appealing to your market and making a bad movie. Ponyo is a great movie. It just doesn't appeal to the Oshii market.
>>
>>102003065
i dont think theyre asking for something dark, just something serious. he turned into a glorified SOL director, which i'm pretty sure he himself abhors
>>
>>102003063
Okay, let's make it easier. I am going to quote a name, and you will agree that it isn't Miyasaki.
For bonus points I am going to take the quote out of your quote.
>>102002751
>George Lucas
>>
>>102003065

Miyazaki has made plenty of Dark movies. The stupid thing is when people think that ONLY dark movies like Nausicaa, Mononoke and Howl's are good.
>>
>>102003108
>he turned into a glorified SOL director,
What are you even talking about?
>>
>>102003104
>Ponyo is a great movie.

I disagree.

I think it's Miyazaki's only bad movie.
>>
>>102003166
ponyo

fuckin, ni no kuni. that game is so boring, and thats not a word i use a lot
>>
>>102003176

Excuse me if I don't fall out of my chair in shock.
>>
Ponyo~ ponyo~ ponyo~
>>
>>102000828
>>102000851
I have no idea what this man is trying to say. It makes sense but when I think about it he's just saying things indirectly. What is he saying?
>>
>>102003210

>fuckin, ni no kuni.

No one of importance, including Miyazaki, had anything to do with Ni no Kuni. The only connection to Ghibli it had was some lower level artists did the character designs for the game. That's one of the major reasons the game was so horrible.

The only good thing to come out of the game was the music by Joe Hisaishi.
>>
>>102003210
Ponyo isn't a slice of life and I don't play video games.
>>
>>102003256
He's saying Miyazaki's fame is preventing him from making good movies because he has to pander and play it safe which resulted in things like Ponyo.
>>
>I wish Miyazaki would pander to my tastes

Eh, I don't really buy into this criticism.

I never understood why Totoro gets so much praise while Ponyo is seen as irredeemable shit by some fans either. It was so pretty to watch.
>>
>>102003274
ponyo is damn near a slice of life
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>>102003302
Because Totoro is a good film.
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>>102003274
>Ponyo isn't a slice of life

How is it not? Because it has some fantasy elements?
>>
>>102003256

Let me summerize:

I've known Miyazaki for 20 years now. Miyazaki is insane, but that's what makes him a genius.

People never criticize Miyazaki because he's such a genius. And everyone loves him. I criticize him all the time but no one [in the media] ever publishes any of it.

I want Miyazaki to make more serious movies. It looked like hewas going to do it with Howl's, which I liked. Then he pulled back for Ponyo.

More people need to criticize Miyazaki.

That's basically what he was saying.
>>
>>102003302
>I wish Miyazaki would pander to my tastes
more like
>I wish Miyazaki didn't pander so obviously to the lowest common denominator

not to mention ponyo is about growing up, from the perspective of three year olds
>>
>>102003162
Hey.

Laputa was pretty dark, as was Spirited Away.
>>
>>102003330
It has plenty of fantasy elements.
>>
>>102003358
So does Natsume Yuujinchou.

That doesn't mean it's not a slice of life.
>>
>>102003303
>>102003274

If you're going to call Ponyo a slice of life, you might as well call Kiki and Totoro a slice of life.

Ponyo has just as much (or more) fantasy elements to it as Kiki or Totoro. For fuck sake, the moon is going to collide with earth, Ponyo is a fish turned into a human and the ocean is flooding Japan.
>>
>>102003210
also, secret of arietty

i haven't seen from up on poppy hill and neither the wind rises, anyone care to tell me about them?
>>
>>102003337
>lowest common denominator

Are you saying there's something wrong with making family films?
>>
>>102003381
>If you're going to call Ponyo a slice of life, you might as well call Kiki and Totoro a slice of life.

That's because THEY ARE.

Kiki and Totoro practically invented the fucking genre.
>>
>>102003388
Arrietty and Poppy Hill weren't Miyazaki. They were good.

Wind Rises was Miyazaki. It's shit.
>>
>>102003381
i want to call kiki a slice of life but the theme of identity is way too central for me to do so, and totoro has all those fucked up implications that keep it pretty far from being so

>For fuck sake, the moon is going to collide with earth, Ponyo is a fish turned into a human and the ocean is flooding Japan

none of which can seriously be taken from the perspective of an adult. that's like watching thomas the tank engine and saying 'holy fuck, these trains have faces'

>>102003399
i'm saying if a guy used to make movies and didn't give a fuck about gore and serious subjects all of a sudden makes movies for kids younger than 12, something is seriously wrong
>>
>>102003302
I enjoy Totoro and Ponyo, but Ponyo feels much less mature. Ponyo herself is part of the problem with her behavior, and the way magic just solves everything at the end is sharply different from Totoro, where magic simply exists but the real thing that saves people is people's souls and connections.

Also, the opening to Ponyo was so fucking beautiful and the rest of the film fails to capitalize on it.
>>
>>102003411
Slice of life isn't even a real genre. In film we simply call it drama. I don't know why every episodic anime - be it realistic or not is called slice of life nowadays.
Slive of life should be about realistic, mundane things. Not fantasy adventures. You can very well call Spirited Away a slice of life.
>>
>>102003337

>not to mention ponyo is about growing up

That's a very limited view of what the movie was. If anything, the bigger theme of the movie was the view of a child fro mthe parents perspective. Hell, the movie has a 10 minute scene of Ponyo 'discovering' the world, from how lights work to eating food for the first time to playing with a bucket, etc. This is all done to tug at the heart strings of the PARENTS watching the movie.

This is why so many people here on /a/ don't like the movie. Because the movie doesn't appeal to teenagers and young adults who want an action movie. It is aimed at kids and the PARENTS of kids.
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>>102003438
arrietty was bad
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>>102003330
From up on Poppy Hill is a Ghibli slice of life. Arietty is almost a Ghibli slice of life. Ponyo, while having elements of slice of life, isn't really a slice of life and is more like a fairy tale.
>>
>>102003472
drama is definitely not slice of life
>>
>>102003381
Kiki is a slice of life, it's just the life of a witch as she grows up.

Slice of life is just that: it's a part of a character's life story. It doesn't have to be pointless or meaningless, it just features a heavy focus on the character's daily life and how they evolve during it.
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>>102003411

>Kiki and Totoro practically invented the fucking genre.

The fact that slice of life in anime goes far back beyond 1987 alone, you do realize the term was first used in 1800s literature....right?
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>>102003474
> If anything, the bigger theme of the movie was the view of a child fro mthe parents perspective. Hell, the movie has a 10 minute scene of Ponyo 'discovering' the world, from how lights work to eating food for the first time to playing with a bucket, etc.
It was done in Totoro in a much better, sophisticated way.
>>
>>102003451
>none of which can seriously be taken from the perspective of an adult
And? The film wasn't aimed at adults.
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>>102003534
victorian literature is VERY slice of life. shallow and verbose
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>>102003451
Maybe he's grown to like doing lighter stories? I just don't get why people are so caught up over this specific point. I'm fine with criticisms that actually explain why his recent films are failures for its intended target demographic, but to attack the works simply because of his choice of target demographic just seems weak.
>>
>>102003579
that's exactly what i'm saying, what used to be all ages has now gotten rid of the 16+ category because its safer

>>102003571
because totoro focused on a serious subject, not some whimsical fantasy bullshit
>>
>>102003530
>it just features a heavy focus on the character's daily life and how they evolve during it.
So everything is slice of life. Terminator II is a slice of life because it focuses on a daily life of John Connor.
>>
>>102003579

>And? The film wasn't aimed at adults.

Yes it was. See >>102003474

That's like saying adults can't find something to enjoy in Cars or A Bugs Life.
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>>102003640
Well, Cars was pretty bad.
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>>102003611
maybe, but i doubt it. iirc he's criticized moe and sol multiple times

watching his earlier movies gives a pretty clear picture of what he used to think, and that was thoughts about serious aspects of life. this stuff is too lighthearted to have been born from the same mindset, so unless he's senile i don't think a person who once took his works as seriously as they are will happily do that

i'll gladly agree with you if it was clear he thinks highly of his latest works and says he enjoys them as much as he did his previous ones but i dont think that's going to happen
>>
>>102003615

>because totoro focused on a serious subject, not some whimsical fantasy bullshit
>girls escaping the pain of their mothers potential death with a huge toonoki demon and a scary neko bus
>all to ethereal choral music

Yeah, totally serious. God, people really are grasping at straws to hate Ponyo.
>>
>>102003658
As a car enthusiast I thought Cars was alright. Haven't seen the sequel though.
>>
>>102003640
it's probably more appropriate to say that parents would happily accompany their children in watching these movies than to say they enjoyed these movies for what they were
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>>102003686
brah do you realize it was inspired by a real incident? what serious, real world occurrence inspired ponyo?
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>>102003720
But the parents do enjoy those films. Have you ever talked to any parents?
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>>102003685

He wrote SPirited Away specifically for his grand-daughter. And he said he wrote Ponyo for the kids and parents of Japan. If anything, it sounds like he was trying to make movies to counter act what he things were 'bad' slice of life and moe with what he thought was good heart warming tales of kids and family.

The fact that so many of you are trying to associate him with slice of life and moe just goes to show how hard you are working to prove his has 'slipped'. When perhaps he hasn't slipped. Perhaps your tastes have just changed. Or you just won't admit the movies aren't aimed at you, but you want to just bitch at him for not making movies like Mononoke or Laputa.
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>>102003686
Yes, it's pretty serious. Kids escaping the real world to the world of imagination isn't something new, but Totoro did this perfectly.
It even blends reality and fantasy so it's hard to tell if Totoro and Catbus were real or not.

What does Ponyo has to offer? A silly, convoluted fantasy story.
>>
>>102003611
I think he does enjoy doing lighter stories. He wrote his dark epics when he was much younger. Now that he's older, and with more influence, he gets to experiment and play around more with stuff like Ponyo and Where the Wind Blows.
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>>102003747
It was inspired by Miyazaki's childhood.
>>
>>102003748
i am a parent

>>102003781
>Spirited Away
>themes of prostitution

ponyo IS the 'bad', what makes it not SOL?

>>102003820
he says that about lots of his movies
>>
>>102003720

My parents watched every Miyazaki film, including Ponyo, and realized instantly that Ponyo was trying to appeal to them. My mom even pointed it out directly saying 'Its nice to see a movie where the parents get as much focus as the children'.

Its sad that so many of you are struggling to figure it out.
>>
>>102003863
His mother was bedridden his whole childhood. It's obviously his most personal film.
>>
>>102003863
Then you should know better unless you don't talk at all with other parents.
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>>102003875
>mom
>>
>>102003747

>oh yeah well it was inspired by a true story, unlike Ponyo!

Oh god, we got one of these idiots. Who thinks anything that has 'Inspired by a true story' on the cover automatically makes it a good movie.

I bet you watch every Hallmark special too.
>>
>>102003903
the mother was active a f in ponyo
>>
>>102003962
that means the serious implications are clear, so you can't possibly miss the adult themes, and if you do dismiss them, then youre one of those 'hah, i caught him doing something similar to what other retarded fanboys do so i'm just going to cut off his points midway so they look more like them' faggots
>>
>>102003966
She wasn't.

>His mother suffered from spinal tuberculosis for a long time. This affected his relationship with his mother, and Miyazaki says that this might have affected the relationship between Nausicaä and her mother in the manga. "Mother away from home because of sickness" was a motif used in Totoro.

http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/miyazaki/101.html#family
>>
>>102004016
i'm talking about ponyo
>>
>>102004009

>adult implications

And again, why does the movie HAVE to be aimed at adults? Are you one of those idiots who thinks movies are only good if they're 'adult oriented'?

Regardless, this argument is just stupid. Since its been proven time and again that Ponyo did have themes aimed at adults. The parents of children. You're just bitching that it 'wasn't as good as Totoro'. Which is pretty much an opinion.
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http://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_Evangelion_Staff#Hideaki_Anno:_Ghibli_ga_Ippai_Liner_Notes

>I wonder if Miya-san and his people are familiar with that feeling of despair. Perhaps they don't want to show that anguish to other people. I think they specifically don't want to display the negative things called self-loathing and complexes to others. That's why Studio Ghibli's works can't show anything but superficial happiness and a reproduction of reality with all the dirty things omitted. A fiction that imitates reality, and nothing more than a single dream. I suppose that is the governance of entertainment. And I think that that is one of the reasons that Studio Ghibli's works are safely watchable, brand name creations.

>I have no intention of denying that. All of Studio Ghibli's works are top level creations. But, I can't help but feel that something is missing. This is because, although the technique is there, I can no longer feel "blood", the "blood" that is surely flowing within everyone. I wonder when that happened? Studio Ghibli's works have, for me, become things that doesn't possess the image of "Anime", but rather of the so-called Japanese cinema, in other words, the Japanese movies that have now lost all their energy. That may be the reason that I feel that something is missing.
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>>102004057
Oh, I thought you were saying that Miyazki's mother was active like the mother in Ponyo.
Sorry, my bad.
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>>102004090
yes they have to have adult themes in order to be good, because any asshole can make a movie with juvenile themes. are your favorite shows dora the explorer?

>Ponyo did have themes aimed at adults. The parents of children

but they weren't thought provoking, they were placating

>You're just bitching that it 'wasn't as good as Totoro'. Which is pretty much an opinion.
>ignoring everything i actually said
>you
>not dismissing like a bitch
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>>102003690
The sequel is BAD.
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>As long as he's seen as this great person, no one will criticize him and I feel sorry for him for that.

I guess he'd like /a/
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Mamoru Oshii - the man who said Grave of the Fireflies is an erotic movie about incest.
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>>102004578
He is my nigga in that case.
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>>102004578
Oreimo & Grave of the Fireflies, literally no difference.
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>>102001739
He's not actually saying Poyo is bad as a film, he's saying that Poyo is bad as a representation of Miyzaki's position in that he's stagnated.
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>>102004626
The article on Nausicaa.net where he makes those claims is supposed to be deliberately mistranslated, but the source is long gone so we'll probably never know the truth. But I only found the article after watching the movie, because the incest elements in it were so obvious to me that I couldn't see why nobody else saw them. The only thing I can think of is that normalfags have some sort of circuit breaker in their brains that gets tripped when they watch it.

For me, the whole point of the story is that Seita kills Setsuko by wanting to be the "perfect Japanese husband" and providing for her.
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>>102004137

>yes they have to have adult themes in order to be good, because any asshole can make a movie with juvenile themes.

Go make a juvenile focused movie then.

Protip: Its actually even harder to make movies for kids because you have to create themes they can understand. Whereas making a movie that focuses on sex, violence or other 'adult themes' is the easiest thing in the world.

Also, you're the true idiot in this thread.
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>>102002127
>People critisize tons of successful people even if the movies do well
You're mixing up western audience and japanese ones. Western critics don't really matter much to the japanese media.
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>>102004855
>Also, you're the true idiot in this thread.
yeah real nice, call me an idiot you sure showed me

>Protip: Its actually even harder to make movies for kids because you have to create themes they can understand
o-oh... i understand completely now

>sex and gore are the only things that constitute 'adult themes'

you're a fucking child
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>>102004850

>he's saying that Poyo is bad as a representation of Miyzaki's position in that he's stagnated.

Which is only in his opinion. Because Miyazaki didn't make the type of movie he wanted him to make. All his comments reek of someone who is whining that Miyazaki isn't making 'adult' themes and being 'brave' enough in his position. Why does Miyazaki have to do these things just because Oshii does? Oshii himself admitted he does them because that's what he focuses on. But Miyazaki is not Oshii.

Many other people who saw Ponyo, the people it was 'aimed' at, don't think he has stagnated at all. In other words, children and the parents of children.
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>>102004137

>are your favorite shows dora the explorer?
>yeah real nice, call me an idiot you sure showed me

Yeah, we're done here. Typical internet tough guy who insults people then whines and cries when he gets insulted back.
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>>102004921
Oh shit anon now you showed him pretty hard
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>>102004948
>children and the parents of children
and this was probably their first miyazaki, seeing how well represented it was in marketing as a child's movie, surprise surprise

as opposed to every other one, which are all met with a critical eye

>>102004977
>see guys look he's calling names first
>Are you one of those idiots who thinks movies are only good if they're 'adult oriented'
just stop
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>>102004977
actually we can go back further if you'd like

>Oh god, we got one of these idiots. Who thinks anything that has 'Inspired by a true story' on the cover automatically makes it a good movie.

>I bet you watch every Hallmark special too.
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>>102005015

>and this was probably their first miyazaki

Not when it was the best selling movie in Japan's history. Obviously a huge portion of the viewers were established Miyazaki fans going to see 'another Miyazaki movie'.
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>>102005015

>names first

Its nothing about calling names first. He's just deflecting it into a topic about insults. So I pointed out that he was flinging the insults just as much.
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>>102004921

>gore

He didn't say gore, he said violence.

And are you seriously trying to use the argument that there's other types of adult themes besides sex and gore when you're also trying to argue so hard against Ponyo having no strong adult themes? Do you even recognize how you're killing your own argument?
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>>102005175
nah see what i was doing was reinforcing the idea that you have the character and critical thinking of a 12 year old, seeing as you define 'adult themes' solely as graphic material, not to mention you believe making children's entertainment is harder
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>>102005237
i argued from the beginning that ponyo was nothing more than a SOL with the mildest, most harmless themes you can ever write
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>>102005238

>nah see what i was doing was reinforcing the idea that you have the character and critical thinking of a 12 year old

And I could say the same thing about you. Again, all you've done is deflected this argument into flinging insults at each other instead of actually focusing on the previous points.

>seeing as you define 'adult themes' solely as graphic material

No, I used two random examples, which you are focusing on because you have no other examples to counteract it.

>not to mention you believe making children's entertainment is harder

Provide an argument as to why it isn't. Hell, use Ponyo and Totoro as examples.

Can you do it without resorting to the same deflections you've done three times in a row now?
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>>102004948
Because its not artistic. If you can't tell, Oshii sees himself as an artist. Like a writer or something. I'm not about to get into an argument, but Oshii very clearly views it that way. His statement:

> The ideal for any director is to be one who doesn't sell but can shoot.

Very clearly implies that. He is saying that Miyazaki has gone from literature-tier works to picture-book-tier works. His basis for that being inferiority is "artistic merit" which can be argued objectively to one degree or another.
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>>102005379
>which you are focusing on because you have no other examples to counteract it.

you mean like death? responsibility? coming of age? why should i dignify this with an explanation if you can't come up with this obvious shit yourself?

>Provide an argument as to why it isn't
you mean black and white, good guy bad guy themes aren't simple as fuck? dignifying an obvious answer etc etc

>Can you do it without resorting to the same deflections you've done three times in a row now?
can you?
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>>102005449
>you mean black and white, good guy bad guy themes aren't simple as fuck?
That's not themes for children, that's just bad writing.
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>>102005264

>i argued from the beginning that ponyo was nothing more than a SOL with the mildest, most harmless themes you can ever write

And you never proved any of that. Hell, I proved your Slice of Life point wrong from the start up at >>102003534 and you never even responded to that. And really...you're getting on my case for mentioning sex and gore, yet you're using terms like 'harmless' and 'mildest' to claim Ponyo is bad? What does 'harmless' and 'mildest' even mean to you? Because it sure as hell sounds like someone who is bitching about not enough sex and violence to a casual observer. Please do elaborate as to what you mean if there's some other 'adult' themes you mean.
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>>102005489
harmless and mildest from a marketing point of view; no one's going to question obvious, easy to follow themes

>Hell, I proved your Slice of Life point wrong from the start
i never said kiki and totoro invented the genre, but i did say that victorian literature sucks

>>102005470
how about other basic morals, like swiper no swiping
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>>102005449

>you mean like death? responsibility? coming of age?

All of these themes are touched upon in Ponyo...are you claiming these are bad themes or good themes now? Or are you bitching that they weren't done the way you wanted? Or...what is even your argument at all?

>why should i dignify this with an explanation if you can't come up with this obvious shit yourself?

Because every post you make sounds like a guy pinned against the wall who's coming up with jack shit going 'It should be obvious! Stop asking me all these questions I don't know the answers to!' Seriously dude, if its 'so obvious', then you should be able to fucking explain it and not act like its some magical hidden topic only you are smart enough to figure out.

>you mean black and white, good guy bad guy themes aren't simple as fuck?

These can be found in TONS of 'adult focused' works. What the FUCK. From Star Trek to fucking Miyazaki works like Castle of Cagliostro and Laputa. And you seriously think all childrens works are only simple and all adult focused works are inherently complex? I am seriously talking to a troll, aren't I?
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>>102005560
>how about other basic morals,
>other
Sure, you can pack some morals up into your children's literature, but you need some fucking skill to not come across as preachy as fuck.
I'm not the one you were arguing with by the way.
In my opinion true children's literature (as opposed to just shallow writing) is high quality stuff that is good for adults too.
It's one hell of a feat though, writing in a way that doesn't just confuse and irritate the youngsters while also not boring an older audience.
I remember I routinely got fucking scared by my children's books when I was a kid. But I still remember those titles fondly.
>like swiper no swiping
Google tells me this is Dora the Explorer. I know nothing about that, sorry.
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>>102005617
>All of these themes are touched upon in Ponyo
not nearly as heavily as they were in other miyazaki films

>Or are you bitching that they weren't done the way you wanted?
the whole point of the OP even was that he's moving away from the heavy nature of his older films, not about what i like

>Because every post you make sounds like a guy pinned against the wall who's coming up with jack shit going 'It should be obvious!

yeah forgive me i'm getting kind of fucking irritated that i have to explain this point
>the whole point of the OP even was that he's moving away from the heavy nature of his older films, not about what i like
a third goddamned time in this thread, among other things

>From Star Trek
never seen it but i definitely know that it's often cited as a show for man children

>to fucking Miyazaki works like Castle of Cagliostro and Laputa
which aren't actually ones that I haven't cited in comparison? laputa definitely does not have complex themes nor did i say it did? this applies to star trek too? 'adult focused' works don't have to be complex to have 'adult themes', does porn have developed plots and character development?

>>102005710
>but you need some fucking skill to not come across as preachy as fuck
but kids generally do not give a flying fuck, which is why swiper no swiping is a theme. it's a basic as fuck theme saying stealing is wrong, to hell with everything else that may or may not include motives

>In my opinion true children's literature
children's literature can mean a lot of things so i'll have to hear some examples. trying to draw a line between simplistic themes that only provoke thought in children and complex themes you need to have lived a little longer to understand

>It's one hell of a feat though, writing in a way that doesn't just confuse and irritate the youngsters while also not boring an older audience.
tbh i remember being confused as hell by kiki and totoro
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>>102005710

Exactly. Sure there's plenty of childrens based media (books, tv shows, movies, etc) that are really badly made and have the writing level of a 2 year old. But the same can be said of plenty of adult focused media. Like the hundreds of crime dramas or reality TV shows on American TV. Or the horrible 3 am shows on Adult Swim. What makes them any different than a badly written kids show?

Like any media out there, just like the stuff aimed at adults, there's also well directed and written stuff for kids. Hell, there's tons of anime like Pita Ten, CardCaptor Sakura, Princess Tutu and even Dororon Enma-kun Meramera. All of these have been classified as 'for kids'. Yet plenty of people over the age of 18 like them and they clearly have adult themes in them.
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>>102005928
shows only suited for adults != adult themes
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>>102005806

>laputa definitely does not have complex themes

...what? it has plenty of complex themes. A rich backstory to the locations. Multiple layers to the characters. A highly evolving plot. Heck, it even goes into the concepts of genocide and man taking on the powers of the gods. What exactly do you consider 'complex themes'?

And you really shouldn't talk about things after admitting you have no knowledge of them. Because you CLEARLY know nothing about Star Trek.
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>>102005964

You're avoiding the points again. This debate is becoming pointless since you won't actually respond to any topic you don't like and just keep changing people's posts around.
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>>102005806
>i'll have to hear some examples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_%28novel%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Button_and_Luke_the_Engine_Driver
Also, The Little Witch, The Little Water Sprite, The Little Ghost by Otfried Preussler. (this reminds me to download the Witch and Ghost ones; I haven't enjoyed them in far too long)
Also Pippi Longstocking (to hell with black&white morality)
I'd also say "Det märkliga barnet" by Ulf Nilsson, but back then I found that so scary that I'm not sure I ever reached the end.
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>>102006011
>And you really shouldn't talk about things after admitting you have no knowledge of them
>saying what i hear about something is me stating my opinion of it

>black and white themes are in laputa
>are you stupid no theyre not theyre complex

what the fuck is wrong with you asshole
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>>102005964

>shows only suited for adults

....except I didn't say that?

Wow, I'm done here. Someone else is gonna have to argue with this guy.
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>>102001947
>so what surrounds him is a cult of people who think he can do nothing wrong

George Lucas Syndrome
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>>102006114

>black and white themes

No, Laputa is in reference to your 'Good guy vs Bad guy' analogy. Which for pretty much the whole film, Pazu is basically constantly trying to protect Sheeta from either the Pirates or Muska. A very cut and dry 'good guy vs bad guy' paradigm.

You were grasping at straws trying to claim that childrens stories were bad because they had such simple themes. Which I was proving that this type of theme can be found in almost any type of work, even something you admitted was good (Laputa).

Later on you tried to use this as fodder to say KLaputa was simple. I then elaborated and proved thatyou can have more than one fucking theme. You can have the 'good vs evil' theme AND multiple other complex themes along with it.

And this brings us back to the very first point that started this whole argument. What is your fucking problem that you think everything has to be either good because its complex or bad because its simple?
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>>102006249
>You were grasping at straws trying to claim that childrens stories were bad because they had such simple themes

>the whole point of the OP even was that he's moving away from the heavy nature of his older films, not about what i like
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>>102006249
>What is your fucking problem that you think everything has to be either good because its complex or bad because its simple?
>the whole point of the OP even was that he's moving away from the heavy nature of his older films, not about what i like
>i'm the one who's misleading
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>>102006295

Yes, I saw you say that the previous two times. But again, you're saying 'heavy nature' with no context. As if I'm suppose to automatically know what the phrase 'heavy nature' means. Are you just saying 'adult themes' in a new way? Makinga joke about Miyazaki's obsessive use of nature in his films? I mean, what the fuck?

You have an excellent way of saying nothing and then getting mad at other people for not understanding you.
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>>102006402
and you have a way of tacking on petty shit to your posts instead of just asking a question

>...what? it has plenty of complex themes. A rich backstory to the locations. Multiple layers to the characters. A highly evolving plot. Heck, it even goes into the concepts of genocide and man taking on the powers of the gods. What exactly do you consider 'complex themes'?
this is what i mean. where is this in ponyo
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>>102006295
>>102006314

>i'm the one who's misleading

Considering you just repeated your own post and I don't know if you're trying to quote yourself or imply I said that....yes, you are being VERY misleading. I honestly don't know what you're trying to argue anymore. But you certainly haven't been making any replies to any of my arguments for the last 3 posts.
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>>102006488

Why does it have to be in Ponyo? Just because you wanted it to be? That's the entire point I've been trying to make. Not every movie has to have complex and deep themes just to appeal to you. And once again, why is a movie bad simply because it has simple themes? Which you still haven't answered. And no, linking to your 'heavy nature' comment isn't a reply since you haven't even fucking defined what that means.

But let's also stop and remember that you actually said that Laputa didn't have complex themes. And now you're backpedaling and admitting my explanation for Laputa is valid only because you're using it now as fodder against Ponyo.

Seriously dude. How backwards is your logic when you fight me so hard on every front, but now you're willing to give up everything just to have a solid lead on hating Ponyo.
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>>102006738
>just to appeal to you
>the whole point of the OP even was that he's moving away from the heavy nature of his older films, not about what i like

i swear to god, every fucking post
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>>102006821
No, actually it was about taking risks and trying new things.
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>>102006738
the heavy nature isn't even the point of why i was quoting it you faggot. the point of quoting that was because he talked about the difference in his movies in the recent ones

>>102006856
>the whole point of the OP even was that he's moving away from the style of his older films, not about what i like
happy now?
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>>102003932
I don't get it why did you quote him?
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>>102004092
That's so vague I can't even attempt to see what he's trying to say. At least not without making large assumptions that can't be quantified or validated in any sort of way.

Please tell me this was simply translated poorly or there was no equivalent expression. It's politician's talk at this point.
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>>102001330
>no one is going to tell you shit
Ponyo BTFO by Up.
Kaze no shit BTFO by Frozen.

Denial is strong with him or maybe the nips just don't know anything better besides ghibli.
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>>102004147
Not much worse than the original.
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>>102003341
Spirited Away is, if anything, massively underrated as a movie with genuinely dark and disturbing themes. Pom Poko even more so.
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>>102003333
>stop liking what I don't like!
What a drama queen Oshii is.
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>>102008385
>Spirited Away
>underrated
Only on /a/. And maybe in Japan. Western critics adore this film.
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>>102008768
I think you misunderstand what he's trying to say.
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>>102008385
Spirited Away, or Ponyo, are made like oldschool fairy tales were made, where magical element is disturbing by its incompatibility with daily adult humans values and by this they make point about those values. But there is nothing exceptionally dark about Spirited themes if you read it within its convention.
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Miyazaki is great, he knows his shit and he is absolutely spot-on when it comes to many of his criticisms.

However, if something become famous or well-known for something it's very easy for that thing to become a caricature of what it is supposed to be rather than simply being what it is.

Anime in of itself is a good example of this, it's often too either too self-aware or not self-aware enough. Miyazaki suffers the same thing, he is pigeonholed as being the guy who makes 'Those' kind of movies and it is very hard for someone to make a conscious decision not to fit into that pigeonhole while simultaneously not trying to /not/ fit into a pigeonhole.
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>>102002127
>Ponyo

Ponyo IMO was shit because Ponyo herself was an annoying spoiled entitled WORLD destroying little shit who never is held accountable for her actions because "can't punish a girl for nearly genociding all living beings." Fuck that white knight faggotry shit.
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>>102001164
>He doesn't take risks anymore
He's never really taken risks ever. The moment Castle in the Sky was released, he got a lifetime pass to walk the Yellow Brick Road. He could make something controversial or unpopular and still have it print money, and the film succeeding that also be a blockbuster hit as well. The problem is that he does not, and has not ever done that before he became Ghibli's Golden Boy. The closest thing that could be considered a "risk" would be Sherlock Hound, but only because it was a TV series instead of a movie and Nausicaä wasn't enough to make him a household name yet.



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