So how has the 2010s been so far? Not counting 2014, what would your ranking of the years be like?
2011 > 2013 > 2010 > 2012.
2011 was fucking great.
When will we get a year as good as 2011 again ;_;
2013 was complete ass.
2013 > 2010 > 2012 > 2011 > 2014
This is factually correct.
Do you guys even into math?
My Niggas 2011 was the perfect year as it was impossible to not have at least 1 show from that year to not become a new all time favorite.
Not sure on ordering but you could combine any two of 2010, 2012, and 2013 and it'd still be inferior to 2011.
Speaking of year by year rankings, why do people say 2007 and 2008 were so great when 2002 and 2004 were both vastly better?
>placing 2013 that high
>placing 2011 that low
2013 > 2011 > 2010 > 2012
A whole third of my 3x3 belongs to 2011.
Maybe if you're some kind of dribbling mongoloid faggot with no taste at all, m80
Been here since 2008. 2011 was really that good.
Are we talking about the quality of /a/, or the quality of the anime? I'm confused
2013 was a pathetic year. What even was its best anime?
The quality of /a/ has been in a constant decline. It's about the quality of anime.
Madoka > Tatami Galaxy > Fate Zero S2 > ???
I can't even think of a good candidate for 2013 to compare to the other years.
2013 was alternating with one season full of good shows and the next season full of horrible ones
Name the good and horrible shows or you're just pissing about, nerd
yama no susume
way better than the 2000s, those were dark times
I don't think movies generally count in these things.
Otherwise, Madoka would literally anime of the year, every year since its airing.
>recommend me anime
I've been here longer and watched more than you, kiddie. You should be kissing my feet while lovingly tonguing my anus,
Sure you have, faggot. I'll tongue your anus anyways though.
>way better than the 2000s, those were dark times
Those were also quiet times. Shonen Jump was the big thing with Jump Festa and my experiences with Comiket were more lively.
>What even was its best anime?
Fantasista Doll, Kitakubu Katsudou Kiroku, and Tesagure Bukatsumono three-way tie. Plus Aikatsu.
Kindof shitty didn't have many friends at least I had anime.
Got 2 good friends I would vidya and anima with them alot.
Same as before also I got into college
Made a lot of college friends. Haven't watch much anime though.
>Madoka Penguindrum S;G
you will never have another year like this
/a/ is not your blog fagget
I was rating my years like OP asked. I don't know how that is blogging.
/a/ might gush over Penguindrum but it was legitimately shit.
/a/ doesn't gush over Penguindrum; it's a hipster-exclusive phenomenon
Are you shitting me?
it's never been widespread popular on this board, he's right, it's only a couple hipster fans who act like it's the best thing since sliced bread
>Calling Penguindrum a shit
I don't know if you are baiting or something.
It is. In terms of style, it's great but the actual plot is fucking terrible.
Winter 2010: Heartcatch Precure
Spring 2010: K-On!!
Summer 2010: Strike Witches 2
Fall 2010: Milky Holmes
Overall 2010: Colorful
Winter 2011: Madoka
Spring 2011: Shouwa Monogatari
Summer 2011: Usagi Drop
Fall 2011: gdgd Fairies
Overall 2011: Madoka
Winter 2012: Kyousougiga
Spring 2012: Hyouka
Summer 2012: Joshiraku
Fall 2012: Hidamari Sketch x Honeycomb
Overall 2012: Nijiiro Hotaru Eien no Natsuyasumi
Winter 2013: Yama no Susume
Spring 2013: Gargantia
Summer 2013: Gin no Sagi
Fall 2013: Non Non Biyori
Overall 2013: Kaze TAchinu
Winter 2014: Probably Happiness Charge Precure
2010, 2011 both good
2013 things really went to shit
>AKB0048, Love Live, ZKC the unlimited, Mondaiji, Sasami-san, Chihayafuru 2.
Not strong but decent season
>Attack on Titan, Railgun S, Gargantia, Hataraku, Utapri, Valrave, Date A Live, Yamato 2199, Aku no Hana, Devil Survivor 2
Strong yet polarizing season, shows are either really good or incredibly shit.
>Symphogear G, Monogatari 2, Danganronpa, Rozen Maiden, Silver Spoon, Neptunia
Below average season, the amount of good shows being overshadowed by the amount of terrible ones
>Infinite Stratos 2, Machine doll, Kyokai no Kanata, Valrave 2, Blazblue Alter Memory
Self explanatory, only good show was Argeppio and to a certain extant NonNonBiyori
lel. Any plot can actually be good with some coherence a good style/design.
>style makes a plot good
Are you retarded? Do you know anything of literature?
In literature, a good writing style can make a strange plot good along with coherence.
Writing style is completely different from animation style and what makes the anime visually.
Isn't Yamato a 2012 show ?
>Summer 2011: Usagi Drop
Stopped reading right here
thought it was the other way around.
Isn't the plot that what makes Penguindrum.
The plot is terrible, are you serious?
It's 2011>2010>2013>2012 for me.
who is hell cares about the visual when we talk about plot ?
>gin no saji
/a/ is a boar for anime and manga discussion and not for discussion of the quality of /a/.
Then you've been arguing for no reason since my initial post specifically discusses the visual style.
2019, believe me, I come from the future.
Not the same guy ?
It was such a painfully weak season; there wasn't anything better
Shit taste time traveler pls
plausible because i can't even imagine what the anime landscape would look like once the 2020 Olympics comes
Okay, I'm going to stop reading and just take this as a joke.
>not a true man's anime
Sounds about right.
Looking through the list of 2010 shows (there were only like 90 by the way), I'd say 2010 has the best ratio of good/great shows to bad shows. 2011 had some great shows but a lot of shit shows came with it, 2012 had more shit than good and 2013 was a disgrace.
tl;dr It gets worse each year. 2014 will hopefully save anime.
2011 >>>>> 2010 > 2012 > shit > 2013
2014 will be fucking great. Holy shit, all those announcements.
Anime is dieing
Madoka, S;G, Usagi Drop, Anohana, F/Z, Penguindrum, Nichijou, Kaiji S2
Obviously some of those shows were very popular so they became hated by the edgier denizens of this board, yet still compared to last year
Kiniro Mosaic, Non Non Biyori.........
Even 2011 was poor in comparison to 2007, the greatest year of anime in living memory.
There's nothing to save, but
>Girls und Panzer movie
>Ghibli TV show
2014 looks fucking neat, and there are dozens of other promising shows, and maybe we'll get Natsume S5
>anime is dying
The 2010s haven't been that good really.
The only good shows have been Milky Holmes, Chihayafuru and White Album.
Steins;Gate wasn't bad, but that's about it.
We've had some good OVAs and movies though; Gundam Unicorn, Yamato, Naoko-san, REDLINE.
Oh shit, right you are. Well I guess that's another one to cross off the list.
Yuki-chan no Shoushitsu
How does 2014 look?
all I can remember is ping pong and mushishi
2012 was fucking awful.
2012 was the worst year for anime in the 8 years ive been following seasons. It almost made me give up on the hobby it was so bad. 2013 was actually really good mostly with SoL and yuri.
2011 is better than 2007. It's actually the greatest single year of anime. Great depth and an amazing top end.
Nekomonogatari, Fate/Zero S2, and Shin Sekai Yori were my top end for that year. I thought those were all very good.
>Kiniro Mosaic, Non Non Biyori.........
If this is seriously the only two shows from last year that you think are good then you have terrible taste.
I just now realized it's 2014.
1979 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1988 > 2004 > 1982 > 1995 > 2002 > 2007 > 2011
>having shit taste
You have to try something before you can call it shit tasting kiddo.
No no no no sorry but you are incorrect.
2011 was a good year in a mediocre decade (10s). 2007 was a great year in a great decade (00s).
My favorite era for anime is 98-2003 but I'll be damned if 2007 isn't the greatest year of anime ever. 2011 can't even touch it. If Madoka came out in 2007 it would have fell to the wayside. It only had so much hype because nothing good had happened in anime for a while and people wanted to believe.
I have watched shows from all of those years and I can tell you that you're wrong.
2010 was a pretty strong year actually and plenty of good things happened. Most notably, Disappearance and The Tatami Galaxy.
You've watched every show from 2002?
Honestly, I'd have to count memorable shows each year and toss away sequels. Every year was overall similar. Maybe 2010 was slightly better than the rest
2011 was an absolutely phenomenal year, on par with the best years of the 2000's. And the years since haven't really been worth noting.
I must be one of the few people who thought Disappearance was tripe. Tatami Galaxy was good but aside from that I don't think 2010 had much else going for it.
The only good thing about 2011 was Steins;Gate, Chihayafuru and GdGd Fairies. Madoka was okay but massively overhyped, the rest...mediocre
Giant Killing, Katanagatari, HeartCatch PreCure!, Kuragehime, House of Five Leaves, Shiki.
To each his own. In my opinion, that movie alone was enough to carry an entire year. But 2010 also included Sora No Woto, Katanagatari, Angel Beats, and others depending on what you enjoy.
2010 also had more large mainstream appealing things like Durarara and Angel Beats, with the latter having extremely dubious quality.
The point really is that Madoka received all its attention based off its own merit. It's very good.
Arakawa, Baka Test, Durarara, Giant Killing, Hidamari, HOTD, 5 leaves, Katanagatari, LOLH, PSG, Seitokai, Ika Musume, Working, TWGOK Inb4 shit taste and recomendations.
I agree that Madoka has been blown out of proportion. That being said, I still feel it was good. Here's some reference for 2011. You don't have to like any of them.
I almost find it hard to believe that someone would dismiss Disappearance as tripe. I consider it the very peak of KyoAni.
To this day, it's the only piece of media in any form I consider a 10/10.
Actually it didn't but I don't expect you to know about Yaraon, Aniplex and the ステマ scandal.
2010 didn't have as many large mainstream anime as 2007.
I'll give you Katanagatari. I liked Angel Beats but I don't think it was that good.
Heartcatch was probably one of the better Precure series, yes.
The peak of KyoAni IMO was 06-07. I loved Haruhi 2006 but I felt that Disappearance (and Haruhi 2nd) was too much of a vessel for KyoAni trying to impress us with flash animation rather than keeping things consistent. The visual style and direction was totally different and I felt Nagato was basically whored out in a way that didn't seem consistent with S1.
Madoka was just okay, nothing I hadn't really seen other series do better.
Madoka > Ano Hana > Fate/Zero > Chihayafuru > Nichijou
2011 was ridiculous
It's only natural that they would greatly increase the production quality for a movie. And Nagato was treated differently, but that was the point of the story in the book, and had nothing to do with the animation studio.
Madoka is one of the few series I think actually deserves all its hype. It's been 3 years and no other anime has even come close to being as good as Madoka.
None of those apart from Chihayafuru are particularly good.
What's your top 5 of 2011?
Everyone is saying that 2011 was so great
I started visiting /a/ in 2012
Sorry but there's absolutely no way Madoka could ever be above Chihayafuru.
AnoHana was practically directed like an eroge adaption, I have no idea why it's praised as much as it is. If I had watched it not knowing it was an anime original I would just assume it's a trashy Light Novel adaption.
Fate/Zero I found difficult to enjoy. I liked F/SN and appreciated that Fate/Zero had improved on F/SN in many ways but the execution made me feel as though it was aimed towards a younger crowd.
Nichijou well, while not inherently bad its flaws are obvious.
Chihayafuru was already better than Madoka. I also personally think Steins;Gate was better than Madoka. But as I said before, Madoka wouldn't have been able to hold a candle to anything in 2007. Just because it's been 3 years doesn't make it good, it just means that there hasn't been much else good to top it.
You can increase the quality without completely changing the direction, appearance and feeling of the series. It didn't feel very 'Haruhi'. No I don't blame KyoAni for Haruhi's storyline, that was a separate issue.
How about Horizon, Hyouge Mono, Ben-To, Penguindrum? Ano Hana is teenage drama shit and F/Z is medicore compared to source.
I started 2013
>Steins;Gate was better than Madoka
I'm not defending madoka but I find S;G one of the most overrated anime. Plot was retarded, you'd have to be 19 y-o self proclaimed scientist to have trouble solving their problems. Chris was carrying the show, otherwise firt half was 'quest of the weak' while rest was undoing that shit. One of the better n+ series, still nothing more than 7/10
Amazing Tier: Hyouge Mono.
Amazing Tire Potential: Mushishi Zoku-shou, Ping Pong
Best animu ever potential: Kiseijuu
2014 can triumph over 2011 if these shows will be as good as they can be.
not that guy but:
3) GdGd Fairies
4) Usagi Drop
5) I suppose Madoka
Although if we're talking favorites I'd remove Madoka and Usagi Drop and replace them with Kaitou Tenshi and Mashiroiro Symphony, although I realize that those two aren't technically great series and are more just personal enjoyments.
You should have been here for 06-07.
Tell us since when do you watch chinese cartoons and how many have you seen.
They're all good shows but there was nothing exceptional in 2010. 2013 is kinda similar to it in this regard but I think its strong shows were a bit better than 2010's.
Let me guess, you watched it after it aired?
I do wonder how Princess Tutu (a much better anime than Madoka) would be received it was aired today.
2011 > 2010 > 2012 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013
Thankfully this year is looking to be better than last year. There were a lot of shows I enjoyed last year, but if I had to rate them, there were only a couple that I would even consider above a 7/10 - there were a lot of 7/10 shows, though.
Milky Holmes is a masterpiece.
It would have gaijin 4komas. Otherwise, still hyped.
No, I was there when the Madoka train started going off the rails. The sepulation threads were fucking impressive. I still don't consider it to be an exceedingly spectacular show, just a very good one.
2011 had Madoka, Penguindrum, and Steins;Gate.
We were seriously spoiled that year. Another like it may not come for another decade.
Steins;Gate is definitely overrated, but not as overrated as Madoka. Steins;Gate just had me on the edge of my seat far more than Madoka did, it felt like the plot was much more thought through and they did more to include details. Madoka seemed to rest on this idea that you'd buy into the world they built when in fact it felt a lot like the typical cheesy anime of the 10s. This kind of 'You've seen mahou shoujo right? Well get a load of THIS!' and it just left me thinking of other shows years before which had done the same thing in a much more authentic way.
Madoka? No I watched it as it aired.
2011 > 2010 > 2013 > 2012
2012 wasn't very good overall.
Ano Hana's strength comes from its music and I would readily admit that a lot of the impact is lost on cultural differences. The screaming at the end was pretty touching to me but I could completely understand why some people found that ridiculous.
Fate/Zero definitely was trying to make itself more accessible to younger crowds and those who didn't read the VN but it still did a very excellent job. The biggest problem Fate/Zero had was handling Berserker's screentime. I prefer F/SN to it actually but they're both very good.
Nichijou was hit or miss on a lot of its skits. The second half was very good and what made it so memorable though.
There is no way Steins;Gate is better than Madoka though. Madoka's handling of the time travel was much better and didn't stale in the middle at all, something Steins;Gate had a terrible problem with. Steins;Gate started and ended well but the journey through it was very dull.
I like Chihayafuru a lot but I don't think I could say it's as solid as Madoka.
2011 > 2012 > 2013 > 2010.
Easily. I doubt 2014 will be as good as 2011 but it has potential to match 2012.
Penguindrum was terrible. I really don't know who would ever think that's worth noting as being a good anime. I mean sure, enjoy it but don't act like it's good. Penguindrum didn't do anything Utena hadn't done over 10 years beforehand.
Madoka's plot was much tighter and well-executed than Steins;Gate's. It was consistently strong throughout without gaps of mediocrity, but to be fair, Steins;Gate was longer so it had more work to do.
It was good. Deal with it.
>Ano Hana's strength comes from its music and I would readily admit that a lot of the impact is lost on cultural differences.
I'm not sure about that. I've lived and worked in Japan for a number of years and I didn't miss any cultural differences. I don't think its OST was particularly strong either, I can't name any pieces which particularly stuck in my mind.
Madoka felt cheap to me, it felt like a bad attempt to pander to people who hadn't really watched much anime but perhaps like to think they have. Steins;Gate felt much more solid than Madoka and it was crammed full of small cultural references that I thought were quite clever if you're familiar with otaku culture (No, not the 2ch memes). But Chihayafuru beat them both hollow.
>all the people hating 2012
>Jinrui, Space Bros, 0048, SSY, Nichibros, Horizon 2, Poyo, YY2, DD2, Apollon, JoJo, Hyouka, IxB, GuP, Nise, KnB, Lagrange, DxD
Go watch some anime, fags.
What do you expect from people who think Madoka is the best anime ever.
Well around 2012
I'd say maybe 20
Maybe a bit more
I think 2012 wasn't as bad as people say but come on, Lagrange? DxD? Don't tell people to watch anime when you rank those as being good.
So many original titles.
Best anime all the year is Gintama, deal with it.
Just the best since its airing.
There's been better though. I think even new JoJo managed to be better than Madoka.
It's not though.
But I agree with this statement. Well, it's in the top.
Stop trying to start fanbase wars.
First season of Lagrange. Best feMC of 2010s until Watashi came. DxD is high tier ecchi battle shounen.
only thing i can remember about penguindrum is about the a stalker girl + aum shinrikyo stuff
> Thread glorifying 2011 has more than 130 replies
> Only two of them mention Hyouge Mono
> Not even one mentions movie Tatsumi
Not that unexpected but still… it's damn plebeian, anons.
It's sad we mainly have adaptations and sequels nowadays. What original title we have now? Anything other than Samflam?
The only shows I liked on that list were space bros DxD and GuP. DxD was just okay too.
The Yuru Yuri manga is better than the anime so I consider the anime very pointless. Why would I want to rewatch the same material in lower quality?
>I dislike two of his anime
>it CAN'T be difference in opinions
>EVERYTHING he likes must be shit
I have no idea why people do this. You morons can only agree with people who list three anime at most.
Fansubs hell certainly didn't help Hyouge Mono in gaining popularity.
KlK is original. Probably some other stuff. I don't see what's wrong with adaptions and sequels though.
I assume nobody mentioned Tatsumi because it isn't anime.
In most cases you can read superior source material beforehand. I'd rather watch something new than adaptation. At least they work great to advertise.
>In most cases you can read superior source material beforehand.
I actually like watching anime first before reading. It makes me notice a lot of stuff I pass over and makes me not hate the anime, while enjoying the source more because it's better. Watching an anime after reading the source just makes me think about all the stuff they cut and how it isn't as good. Other way around usually let's me enjoy both and I'm getting new stuff out of it usually.
But it is, anon. It's animated adaptation of Gekiga Hyouryuu (A Drifting Life) with some most famous short stories by Tatsumi Yoshihiro as interludes. You should probably watch it (seriously, everybody should, it's great, especially if you're into gekiga) before you start spilling bullshit, mate.
Only when you know moon.
I have no intention of getting eye cancer from reading shitty scanlations or LNs' transliterations. I was a manga guy before but since i learned more about fansubbing scene, CR got better and so the fan(edit)subs, I vastly prefer anime.
Good manga with proper scanlations will never get an anime anyway, so there's no problem there.
It's not really worth watching. Just read the manga.
Stop pretending to be retarded. It may be a manga adaption, but it was a Singaporean movie - as in it was produced, animated, and released in Singapore, directed by a Singaporean directer. The last time I checked, anime is animation from Japan, not Singapore.
I don't know why people say this kind of thing. It's gotten far more praise from creators who were already famous before most of /a/ was even born; definitely not the kind of that only people who are new to anime think is genuinely exceptional. I'd say that about Chihayafuru before that, if anything, it doesn't stand out among other, better sports anime beyond the card game gimmick and it's full of romance garbage
Having a lot of OK shows doesn't beat having five to ten great shows. 2012 is shit relative to the years before it.
>Change the world
Oh man, Madoka is in my 3x3 but even I find that phrase ridiculous.
>2012 is shit relative to the years before it.
And after it so far.
It sounded less silly in moon. "We hope people take the message to heart" kind of thing
>First season of Lagrange.
Ugh no, Lagrange was terrible and MC was a Mary Sue. That whole series was a trainwreck the moment they turned Lan into a moeblob.
You do realize that Madoka is not the first anime to win this away by a long shot, right? People praised Madoka because it was a decent anime at the time, it in of itself is not actually that great. Just because a few people said it was good does not actually make it good.
Actually it wasn't. The phrase used in Japanese was 「時代を変える」 which is pretty much 'Change the world'. Pic related.
I'm talking dozens of the most important and highly acclaimed figures in the industry. Not just Oshii, Anno and Koike like everyone knows but Inio Asano, Hideo Azuma, Gisaburo Sugii, Hikawa Ryuusuke, Takako Shimura, Okada Toshio, tons of people. These are not the kind of people who only remember the last few years
And a lot of people also said it was overhyped. Let's not forget the amount of other series these people have praised.
And once again, remember that Madoka's popularity was artificially inflated by the ステマ incidents that were caught. SHAFT even issued an apology for it. It's just hype, that's all - and it doesn't live up to it by a long shot.
>Spring 2013: Gargantia
You full of shit. Gargantia was a complete shit and mess.
Not, of course, that it would matter if you could, because your claim was that only people who are new to anime would recognize it as an exceptional work, and that claim has already been demolished
Toshio Okada actually only rated the 3rd movie as being particularly good. And we all know what a troll the Otaking is anyway, he only announced his rating after everyone was disappointed with it.
He rated the TV series as "must see!" and said the movie was a godly masterpiece that exceeded Eva
Please remove yourself from this thread. We were having an adult conversation about anime before you came along with your rabid fanboyism.
You clearly don't know Okada very well.
>after everyone was disappointed with it.
It was quite well-received in Japan
Should I take this as a concession that you can't name anybody?
It was a very divided audience.
I already did, Yoshiyuki Tomino. He was there when it won the grand prize and was very assblasted about it
Still doesn't make it great.
The only thing Madoka probably did was make Urobuchi popular and give him credit to do whatever he wanted, which, recently, hasn't been good or ''wasn't able to have full control'' or other bullshit. It just comes off as meh.
Remember when people were discussing the merits and shortcomings of Madoka and other 2011 shows in an adult manner instead of 'HURR CRITICS LIKED IT SO IT'S GOOD'?
Urobuchi doesn't have 'it', he never did. Saya no Uta wasn't bad but it wasn't even a noteworthy VN at the time
That shit is meaningless when Aniplex are known bribers and viral marketers.
Where were all their voices when other good anime have been made?
Why did they all seemingly ignore Tutu despite being better than Madoka is pretty much every single aspect.
The same Tomino who publicly criticized Tokikake and then revealed he was a huge fan of it? You will have to do better than that
This guy gets it
Because aniplex didn't pay people to spam 2ch with praise or pay to get interviews with industry veterans.
You are delusional. Tutu-love is a Western-anime-hipster specific thing, no one in Japan cares about it because it's not good
Space Bros, and Jinrui are masterpiece-tier. Something you won't find in 2010 or 2013.
Rest of those aren't just 'OK', they're much more. I named 18 out of 76 shows I watched that year.
By the way this "only top3-5 of the season can be considered okay" mentality is ridiculous, especially in threads like this one.
Sure, characterwise, it's rather poor, and mainly used for shock value. Madoka properly highlights Urobuchi's main flaw; he can introduce a bunch of intertesting characters but can't properly use them fully for shit (see Saya as a perfect example or Gargantia for more recent example) and you see a pattern.
There are a lot of flaws in madoka but the issue is that the is an equal amount of praise and shortcoming in madoka that you have to pull one end towards one another because the parts that don't work isn't easily describable.
The funnier part is that this shit always leads to a madoka discussion because people can't seem to fucking stop talking about this shit for some reason or another.
If hypocrisy rules someone out as being a critic then you'd have to cross off all the people listed here: >>101914773
Explain how Madoka is better than Tutu.
More like reaction to hipsters mindlessly depreciating great show just to feel special.
Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. He was being deceptive; there's a huge difference
Of course he never did, he never fucking did. Saya was just mildly creepy but enough for normalfags to think it goes in the extreme category that it just baffles me.
Yet people keep giving him insane amount of praise that ''he's fully in control of the story, theme, narrative'' and everything else and whatever doesn't work gets placed as something that isn't in his control.
PP is pretentious? Well shit, he wasn't the main writer, it's the fault of some other bitch.
Gargantia is a mess that goes everywhere? Well duh, he wasn't FULLY in charge, only got was the director and wrote the first and last episode, clearly not all of it.
F/S Zero being meh? Well that's obviously Nasu!
I fucking hate people who defend him because it's all shifting the blame or giving him all the praise.
>Because aniplex didn't pay people to spam 2ch with praise or pay to get interviews with industry veterans.
Pfffhaha good one.
You know the funny part about this? Almost everybody involved with the SHAFT/Aniplex scandal also had related ステマ 'accidents' traced back to their individual works. Urobuchi used to make VNs for Nitroplus who were recently discovered to be behind some pretty nasty twitter spoofing. The Madoka thing is pretty well-known. SHAFT also got caught with Bakemonogatari too and even Kumeta (Who I thought was beyond all this) had turned just before Joshiraku got an anime. The whole thing reeks and always has done but unfortunately not enough people will ever admit to it because they don't speak Japanese.
It doesn't have a deus ex machina ending like Tutu does
It's dark and was short. Easy to consume with the characters death making you more involved.
Tutu has insanely more depth in every aspect but dragged a bit in parts.
Irrelevant overall imo since the world and characters in Tutu are far better than Madoka.
Because other shows weren't as big so they weren't even asked for their opinions.
Because Tutu was worse.
Typical Madoka hater. You are unable to say anything by yourself, constantly require others to present their arguments and then you would nitpick at small parts of the argumentation or disregard it with >opinions. Just deal with it. You aren't forced to like every masterpiece out there. Just don't be so stubborn in hating it, rather stick to things you like.
Yeah of course, 'deceptive'. How do you figure that out? Wait, let me guess - you're psychic.
That's just silly and a sad attempt at trying to tar everyone with the 'HATERZZZ' brush. If it was good I would like it, but it wasn't good and it was overrated. Therefore I did not like it. If I was a hipster I wouldn't have admitted to enjoying Steins;Gate
>Tutu has insanely more depth in every aspec
Why is it Tutufags always say it's 'SO DEEP" but the threads are just repetitions of the guitar ninjas meme and then nothing? I've been here seeing people praise it this way for six years and I've never seen anyone give any details about this supposed depth
>Typical Madoka hater.
Typical madoka fanboy
He said one thing, and then said that he didn't real think so later. This has nothing to do with "hypocrisy," learn English.
Maybe you should judge the show for yourself by actually watching it instead of reading threads on /a/.
Let me guess, your powerlevel is pretty damn low too.
>That's just silly and a sad attempt at trying to tar everyone with the 'HATERZZZ' brush.
It isn't any worse than your "rabid fanboyism".
>If it was good I would like it
Holy shit. There's no hope for you.
You lack basic understanding of subjectivity, tastes or opinions, you just proved it's impossible to reason with you.
Yeah of course that makes him deceptive, doesn't mean he changed his mind or anything, right?
All the people listed as praising Madoka have all contradicted themselves at one point. In fact, IIRC Anno shat on Madoka and then deleted the tweet before praising it in apology.
And people try to tell me /a/ isn't just /v/-lite. This whole thread proves it.
I watched it years ago. It wasn't very good. There was nothing "deep" there. The dancing theme made it fun to watch from a visual perspective but there was no "there" there
He said that he had been pushing for the show he panned to win an award the whole time.
>IIRC Anno shat on Madoka and then deleted the tweet before praising it in apology.
A source would be nice. Still waiting on the "bunch" of relevant figures who supposedly agree with you
>It isn't any worse than your "rabid fanboyism".
Yes it is. We were having a very civil thread about Madoka, Steins;Gate and other 2011 anime. Then you came storming in with your "All these critics said it's good and they can't ever be wrong!" followed by dismissing everyone else as a 'hater'.
Either act like an adult or get the fuck out of /a/. The real anime fans are talking now, we don't need your shitty fanboyism to ruin what has so far been a pretty civil thread. Fit in or fuck off.
But it was you who made an empty comment about Tutu not being good without any reasoning.
I merely tried to get something out of you but I doubt you have even watched it.
Is it bad or is it overrated? Make up your fucking mind. Also I highly doubt you like all good things just because they are good because nobody does. There are tons of things I think are good, but don't like because I don't like them or find them enjoyable.
You made an objectively false claim that relied on base insults of everyone who disagrees with you. This false claim was disproven and then you went ballistic
>Either act like an adult or get the fuck out of /a/. The real anime fans are talking now
This is hilarious. I'm glad both sides of this are totally retarded and out of control because this is just comedy gold right now.
Why is it supposed to be good? You weren't actually impressed by writing as a metaphor for fate bullshit, were you?
I hope you don't think Madoka was deep then.
The characters in Princess Tutu actually felt like multifaceted characters that developed nicely over the story.
Madoka was your usual Gen tripe with terrible characterization, a shitty story and him applying shock value to instill value into his terrible writing.
The ballet, the ''story within a story'' aspect, a lot of the themes twist old fairy tales messages and incorporates them into the story while still being relevant in some aspect, meaningful character interaction about the concepts of friendship, truth, love, pride and what it means to be who you are (also a coming of age story in away depending on how you look at it).
The entire thing being able to be understood by kids while still having depth with old fairy tales is something I really found interesting. The fact that the world has animals in it showcasing the literal sense that the world is merge between the real world and fantasy yet no one questions it because they don't notice it, yet Duck notices it even though she comes from within the story itself.
I don't really see how the fuck you can't see the depth that Tutu has albeit misdoing its shortcomings with the plot dragging in many areas.
I've also heard that the ballet it showed was a mix of classical and new age ballet or some shit but I can't tell since I'm not well versed in that but I've been told it did it very well and says something about the story with the form of dance specifically during the scene it is shown.
He obviously hasn't.
It's one guy in this thread who is just throwing around shit about 'haters', if you raise any relevant issues you'll just get mindless drivel back about hipsters and haters and all sorts of shit.
This thread is Madoka fanboy territory now, don't expect logic and reasoning. Just the same old 'You don't like it because you're a hipster' shit we've heard many many times before.
It became a self fulfilling prophecy and now /a/ hates anime just like /v/ hates videogames.
Check the post times newfriend, there are obviously at least two people who disagree with your sage opinions
>Madoka was your usual Gen tripe with terrible characterization, a shitty story and him applying shock value to instill value into his terrible writing.
This is basically what I didn't like about Madoka. It was very transparent in that you could see exactly what Gen was going for with the whole 'despair' theme. Kind of cringey to be honest, but it's probably in the top 5 anime of 2011.
Yes but it gets put as some people ''all time fav'' which just rolls my eyes.
Sorry but if you think Madoka is anything more than overrated then you need to watch more anime.
Ballet was fun but not "deep"
Fairy tale references are everywhere in shoujo fantasy
All the rest is bog standard anime stuff, what was so special about what Tutu had to say about them that makes it worth being put on a pedestal?
The funny part is when people post this image: >>101913602 as if it's some kind of new award that no anime has ever won ever and that therefore Madoka must be some kind of super special series as a result.
Madoka isn't even the first TV anime to win that award. Tatami Galaxy had it beat the year before and received the same pretentious praise.
Story within a story + mahojo + fairy tale + good characters + reference = good.
There's nothing else like it.
I don't think I can make this point any clearer other than you saying ''yeah, well so what?'' and not getting the point.
It's great that they felt that way, but Madoka's characters actually were multifaceted individuals with consistent, clear, and interesting development. They even have enough going on to have both positive and negative qualities they themselves weren't aware of, that's rare as hell in this medium and you won't find it in Princess Tutu
I asked why it was deep and special, not why you liked it. The story within a story part was tripe by the way, with a cringeworthy and completely predictable ending
>I can spout completely subjective stupid shit and insult you but you can't talk back
It's hilarious you dare to talk about maturity.
I only said it was worse than Madoka.
And also, here are the runners up for Madoka for that very prize:
>Legend of the Millennium Dragon
>A Letter to Momo
>Kōji Yamamura's Muybridge's Strings
>Folksongs & Ballads
In 2002 Crayon-Shin Chan won the same award and was up against:
Kōji Yamamura's Mt. Head
Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
The Cat Returns
>Madoka's characters actually were multifaceted individuals with consistent, clear, and interesting development.
If you really believe this then you need to watch more anime because clearly your powerlevel isn't high enough.
No Akiba-kei anime has ever won it before, in fact. And of course winning that award does make an anime special, certainly good enough that anyone getting autismal about it receiving praise on an imageboard doesn't have a leg to stand on
Only Sayaka was decent and she's shit.
Homura having no character.
Madoka being worthless.
Mami being used for shock value
Kyouko simply used to be the opposite of Sayaka and then die for more shock value of Homura being unable to do shit because I HAVE TO DIE AND NOTHING ELSE WILL MAKE ME DO IT SINCE I PLACED ALL MY HOPES IN A GIRL WHOM I JUST MET
Yeah, no. Go away.
Only hipster shows you people praise won this award. Suddenly mainstream show, only ges to say how good it really was when even the critics recognized it.
That Crayon Shin-chan movie was a masterpiece. Have you seen it?
Some insults and all caps posts will surely prove me wrong. Want to try an MS Paint comic next?
Wow, somebody dared to defend Madoka and you guys completely derailed the thread.
Madoka isn't Akiba-kei. Certainly no more or less than Tatami Galaxy.
Please, don't even use the word 'Akiba-kei' because you clearly have no idea about Akihabara and otaku culture. Mononoke Hime caused bigger rifts in Akiba at the time and that won the same prize. I would know because I was there.
The award is mainstream as you get.
Why do these threads always attract armchair critics.
Yeah it was good, but it's competition was much stronger than Madokas. I'd have been surprised if Madoka didn't win it in 2011 as there wasn't really much else.
>madoka is great
>no it isn't all other anime have never come close to it
>yeah well gen's writing isn't that great nor is the characters
Every time madoka is mentioned.
Can't argue? Just say lel and claim victory by using sarcasm.
People were defending Madoka replies and replies ago, it was one shitposter who came in and started acting like a retard about it. There was good Madoka discussion before, but now it's just meta-arguments.
Sure you were, bucko. Sure you were.
Here is the Google image search results. We see maids, idols, craterfaces with headbands, exactly what anyone would think of when they hear Akiba. Which sounds more like that to you, an adaptation of a full-length confessional novel by a popular mainstream author or a moe anime?
2010: tatami galaxy
2012: hyouge mono
2013: fucking disgusting
almost 1 legitimately good show a year
that's ok i guess?
>>no it isn't all other anime have never come close to it
You're projecting, this didn't occur in this thread.
As usual, you people are extremely biased. Someone says Madoka is great/masterpiece/whatever and you HAVE TO shit on such person.
Because Madoka's insane critical and commercial success breaks the delusions of pretentious retards who think they mandate what constitutes good taste, and in doing so becomes a constant source of butthurt.
That's more of a /v/ermin post than an armchair critic post.
Better yet, Mononoke Hime even beat Eva for the same award. I don't recall there being much people who cared about the award at the time, but it's pretty amazing regardless. There was a huge otaku/Mainstream divide at the time (far bigger than in 2011 when niwaka ota were at their peak) and yet Mononoke Hime brought both sides together.
jinrui was 2012 and hyouge mono was 2011
sorry, point still stand though
>2012: hyouge mono
Letter to Momo and Muybridge were both exceptionally good and Millennium Dragon while not having a good story is awardbait of the highest caliber. That French movie was good too
>Sure you were, bucko. Sure you were.
Falling back on the 'UR LYING' shit I see.
>exactly what anyone would think of when they hear Akiba
No no no, see I told you that you shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
Just stop, stop using words you don't understand. It's literally insulting to my ears. It's pretty clear you've never even been to Akihabara, let alone before Densha Otoko and the private rail.
You're an idiot, or pretending to be one. Double-check your post and stop posting.
>Sorry but if you think Madoka is anything more than overrated then you need to watch more anime.
So it's a good anime that isn't as great as people say? What's wrong with that. It's still good. Overrated is a dumb way to describe something and is really just used because you can't form an actual opinion, so you just compare it to others opinions instead.
Nothing wrong with it, but there are some people in this thread showing their ignorance and low powerlevels by severely overrating it.
Only Madotards care about the reward which was mainly thanks to gorespammer 2.0 using it to reverse troll the fanbase.
Sure sure, no one in Akiba cared about maids or moeshit before Densha Otoko. Sure. Go back to /jp/ and pretend to be Japanese there
contain ur autism pls
>2013: fucking disgusting
I don't even believe you watched anything from last year if you actually think there wasn't 1 legitimately good show last year because there was well over 5 from last year that are legitimately good.
Usually when someone who has shown an inability to win an argument based on the facts resorts to unsubstantiated appeals to the authority on the Internet that person is lying. Prove me wrong!
Not the same person.
I think you're missing the point largely.
Madoka is not an 'Akiba-kei' anime, no more or less than Tatami Galaxy.
And please don't lecture me about Akihabara or even worse, Di Gi Charat. I can and will seriously stomp you down and make you look very stupid. ESPECIALLY if you talk about Gamers. Don't talk about Gamers, please.
>Overrated is a dumb way to describe something and is really just used because you can't form an actual opinion
It's one of only negative opinions people are capable of making about Madoka. Well, there's also "terrible pacing", "shitty characters" etc. but those are equally meaningless. When eanyone tries to write more than three sentences it becomes painfully obvious he didn't pay attention.
It is good. Some stop at that, some dislike it, some consider it masterpiece. Just like with every other show. It's just that the latter part is more prevalent than in case of most of other shows. No matter the powerlevel.
Exactly, if he knew what I knew about Akihabara he'd be cringing for posting that. I was posting on Akihabara's community BBS via Telnet before the dot com boom.
>It is bad. Some stop at that.
If you have a point you should make it. SF+bishoujo has always been the basis of otaku culture; MadoMagi has both (not to mention being a fucking hero team story) and Tatami has neither.
No, you're showing your extreme bias by disregarding opinion of everyone who thinks of Madoka higher than you. You're unable to comprehend the concept that maybe something is better than you thought and treat your opinions as facts. That's the problem.
I don't know who's trolling who anymore.
Nobody could deliberately be this much of a fag.
>argument based on the facts
>Madoka isn't good
>it's a fact
>treat your opinions as facts
Sounds like the Madoka fanbase in a nutshell.
there were some ok shows, but not a single one that'll stay in my memory like the other 3 i mentioned
maybe chihayafuru 2 but that's a second season
Typical. Unable to comprehend the whole post, you can't get above twisting a small part of post, thinking it's enough of a counterargument.
You spelled /a/ wrong.
I thought you wanted to show that you were adults.
>SF+bishoujo has always been the basis of otaku culture
No it hasn't actually. SF has but bishoujo actually not so much.
The point I'm making is that if you knew anything about Akihabara you'd know the significance of the years 2004-2005 (If you think you do, please list the events so I can be clear we're on the same page) and then of course the commercial boom that followed in 2009-present day. If you knew this, you wouldn't be using the word 'Akiba-kei' because A) It's essentially meaningless in this day and age and B) it has no relevance to the success of an anime in this day and age either
You're also forgetting that Madoka had massive amounts of marketing behind it, much more than Tatami ever got. Please, don't act like Madoka winning the media arts award is some kind of groundbreaking victory because it's based on Mahou Shoujo which you personally associate with Akihabara and otaku culture (The mainstream was into Mahou Shoujo long long before otaku ever were). It's not.
If anything, it's more surprising Tatami Galaxy would win the award than Madoka. Much more surprising.
I wish you people stopped with that. The only real problem of /a/.
2013 was the glorious year of SoL, Don't hate it.
He's right though. It was absolutely the Madoka fanbase that ruined the thread. There was some good discussion above which didn't resort into flamewars, but then this post: >>101913602 ruined it.
The Madoka fanbase is legitimate shit though.
You ask them in this very thread to explain themselves and instead attack the poster and even when someone goes through the trouble of making a semi detailed post the most they can retort with is shit or some other buzzword.
I had phases where I didn't go on /a/ or watch anime during these years so it's hard to rate them. I think '12 and '13 had some good anime that I watched while they were airing, like Magi and Ixion Saga DT. To Aru Majutsu no Index II is very high on my favorite anime list, however I didn't watch it when it was currently airing so I'm not gonna give any cred to 2010.
2010 - The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya, Katanagatari.
2011 - S;G, Madoka, Penguindrum.
2012 - Psycho-Pass.
2013 - Monogatari S2.
2011 > 2010 > 2013 > 2012.
2012 was truly the worst year, absolutely nothing good to watch. PP was only decent but not good enough anyway.
what the fuck happened in 2011 that everyone is praising so hard?
Of course, they never cared about pretty 2D girls. Never. Who would even suggest such a thing
3 huge anime
2012 had Jinrui, GuP.
>It is good. Some stop at that, some dislike it, some consider it masterpiece. Just like with every other show. It's just that the latter part is more prevalent than in case of most of other shows. No matter the powerlevel.
I disagree with this on the principle that Madoka didn't really offer anything which hadn't been done before better. It's absolutely fine to enjoy Madoka or to even step back and say 'That was a good anime' but the moment you drift into 'masterpiece' territory you've pretty much outed yourself as having a low powerlevel, else you would know why other people are not impressed by it and think it's overrated.
At this rate, 2014 might be even better.
That post that responded to claimed only people who had little experience with anime think it's good. That was post was amply disproven. Instead of admitting he was wrong the poster got butthurt and starting trying to redirect the conservation and here we are
Tempest ans Horizon were the only decent things in 2012.
I think you'll find that if you actually try to offer legitimate criticism without looking like a troll, there are plenty of people who are willing to defend the show in a reasonable way. So few actually bother to do that though, because it's much easier to just shitpost.
What was there besides Madoka? I don't usually pay attention to what year an anime is from, and I mostly watch stuff that already aired.
>Tempest ans Horizon
Shut the fuck up you human garbage 3k mmr.
Hideo Azuma, the father of lolicon, winner of the Japan Science Fiction Convention's Best Manga Award BEFORE GUNDAM - not to mention obvious low powerlevel newag
You can't just say someone who thinks Madoka is a masterpiece has a low powerlevel.
That's just a sweeping generalization.
/a/ really needs to learn what subjectivity and opinions are.
I didn't even like Madoka but I hate this bullshit.
No offense but I'm guessing you are somewhat new to /a/.
Madoka, Steins;Gate, and Penguindrum (my favorite)
So you've basically acknowledged that you're wrong here? I mean you're picking one single point and not even addressing it properly.
Not to mention there are lots of things wrong with your example there:
Gunbuster wasn't the start of otaku culture and therefore does not contribute at all to the 'basis' of it.
Secondly, Gunbuster may have an attractive character, but the show is SF oriented first and foremost.
You can't just pick any anime with a good looking girl and say 'Otaku culture has its basis in bishoujo because this girl is attractive'. Doesn't work like that. That's like saying 'Otaku culture has its basis in shoes, because the first otaku anime featured characters who wore shoes.'
Bad example. you're intentionally crossing over the phenomena of bishoujo and the literal meaning of the word. You're purposely misusing semantics in order to support your argument, that's either ignorance or trolling - or both.
Not recognizing what Madoka did that was completely new and groundbreaking just shows that you're an utter rube and haven't seen enough anime to make the judgement. Your flawed premise destroys any credibility the rest of your pretentious whining might've otherwise had.
2011 > 2013 > 2010 > 2012
That overrated grimdark mahou shoujo shit that shitposters love so much
2012 had nothing.
2010 had Angel Beats and HotD
2013 had the potential to be great but delivered only half of that - Still very enjoyable
2014 looks better than 2013 already.
Also a lot of stuff on the higer end of average/lower end of good that were enjoyable but not complete shit. 2011 didn't have many bottom of the barrel shows.
I think it's pretty clear at this point that the 'change the world' image is trollbait in Madoka threads unless requested for information. The quoted post claimed that 'Madoka is good because all these critics who were around before /a/ said so' It's a grandfather complex argument and it doesn't do anything to contribute to the discussion other than to say "X group of people are wrong and Y group of people are right" which has now carried down through the thread into
>typical madoka fanbase
>typical madoka hatebase
That was the post that ruined this thread.
You're in no position to demand shows of knowledge from others. I'm not the one who thinks otaku didn't care about cute girls, maids, or idols before 2005
I think the ones who ruined it were people responding to him. "ridiculous"
>People praised Madoka because it was a decent anime at the time, it in of itself is not actually that great.
That's an outright lie (many people who praised did it because they thought it was honestly great, hell, that's normally the reason why people praise things, especially when do it to the extent they did with Madoka) and miserable attempt at disregarding opinions of all fans. I remember thousands of anons who praised it becasue they thought it was great and still think so. The real Madoka hate only started when the show ended and people who heard it's supposedly a masterpiece set up retardedly high expectations, weren't satisfied and started bashing the show. Of course, there were many people who weren't too impressed with Madoka since the start but if you compare it to any other show, madoka is clearly at/near the top when it comes to positive reactions and their extent.
Sure, he went too far with "romance garbage" but that was still an opinion and he wasn;t forcing it on others, nor telling people "no, you can't think otherwise" like you people do.
By calling out on a fanbase you're degrading the discussion to common shitflinging. I'm not even talking about Madoka here, this applies to everything.
Never said that, only that you didn't understand the insignificance of the term 'akiba-kei' after 2005.
But sure, keep trolling. You do this a lot I've noticed; purposely confusing semantics in order to 'win' an argument.
>You ask them in this very thread to explain themselves
In very rude manner and while presenting your negative opinions as facts. Do you honestly expect serious replies when you yourself don't put in any effort? It's always like that. "madokafags, explain why your show is good" "explain why it's better than xyz" "when you say it's good because abc was done well I'll just say it wasn't" and so on. Be fair.
>The father of lolicon
Actually this title is very much up for debate. But that doesn't really mean anything about your title. I hope you understand the differentiation between lolicon in anime and lolicon as a movement.
>thread mentioning 2011
>ends up being about Madoka and its fanbase
Every single time
No one said Gunbuster created otaku culture. It is merely an example of an early work fusing the two most prominent elements loved by anime otaku. Gunbuster of course does not just happen to have "an" attractive character but makes half its cast impossibly beautiful high school girls with extremely revealing outfits and their boobs flopping around in every scene. It's not some incidental thing. The scriptwriter even said that all you need to succeed in anime was a giant robot and a pretty girl in space. It's not news to anybody but you that old school ota cared about pretty girls too. And that doesn't even get into the super-fans of the lolicon manga of the '80s or male fans of Reed and Pierrot's '80s mahou shoujo, or even Sailor Moon. They have both been there since the very first years of the '80s at the earliest, I don't know why you try to deny it
It's true that it's not that great though. Name something Madoka did which no anime has ever done before.
There are many people with big powerlevel who consider Madoka a masterpiece though. In that post I wasn't talking about myslef but things I observed. Really, no matter the powerlevel. Be it low, mid or high, you'll find many people claiming Madoka to be a masterpiece. Among the people with high powerlevel of course there is more variation in actually good shows but if you were to consider which show is mentioned the most often, Madoka would be very high (we obviously don't have the absolue data so I won't try to state exact number because it's impossible).
>Code Geass airs
>claims the whole board for itself
>small amount of people hate it and hide in container threads
>after it ends they repeat how awful it was
>claims the whole board for itself
>small amount of people hate it and hide in container threads
>after it ends they repeat how awful it was
>Guilty Crown airs
>claims the whole board for itself
>small amount of people hate it and hide in container threads
>after it ends they repeat how awful it was
Please address the central point if you could. I will spell it out for you if you fail to understand. Here we have the author of dozens of classic manga who was already extremely famous in '70s, writing that MadoMagi is a masterpiece SF anime. Reconcile this with your previous claims here >>101918038
I was with you there until Guilty Crown. I honestly can't remember it being popular with the board as a whole. It wasn't anywhere near as popular as Madoka or Code Geass.
>claims the whole board for itself
I don't know about that. Guilty Crown wasn't nearly as pervasive as Code Geass or Madoka.
>There are many people with big powerlevel who consider Madoka a masterpiece though
Good luck getting him to understand that. People have been trying for two hours now
It was the most popular show while it aired beating Nise and F/Z in terms of thread speed.
The general opinion on GC was lower though with most people taking it as a wild ride from the start instead of claiming it is the big saviour of anime.
Things don't have to be never done before to be good. Are you the same kind of person that says Eva is shit because there was crying in mecha before it? Might as well say that Disappearance is shit because it's not the first thing to have time travel/alternate dimensions.
This is an incredibly dumb argument and it gets brought up constantly.
Coincidentally, Madoka's entire premise is pretty unique.
It's a magical girl show where the entire story is about the girl making the decision to be a magical girl, instead of what she does as a magical girl.
I think we can all agree 2011 has been the best and 2013 was the worst
Name one other mahou shoujo that has the main character transform for the first time in the last episode
>It is merely an example of an early work fusing the two most prominent elements loved by anime otaku.
Not true. The 'fusion' wasn't intentional and bishoujo was not a 'prominent element' loved by anime otaku'.
>half its cast impossibly beautiful high school girls with extremely revealing outfits and their boobs flopping around in every scene.
Boobs flopping around in every scene is absolutely not true and I wonder if you've actually seen it or just looked at pictures. I wouldn't really say that they're 'extremely revealing'. They're very standard 80s clothes - legwarmers and leotards. Standard at least for a TV show.
>It's not news to anybody but you that old school ota cared about pretty girls too.
They cared about pretty girls but pretty girls did not make the 'basis' of otaku culture. I don't know why you think you know anything about 'old school ota' (We call those people first wave ota actually).
> And that doesn't even get into the super-fans of the lolicon manga of the '80s or male fans of Reed and Pierrot's '80s mahou shoujo, or even Sailor Moon.
Once again, Lolicon as a movement is very different from Lolicon in anime. I discussed this in some length about a week ago to someone who didn't understand the difference. Lolicon is a fetish, essentially. The shows that featured 'lolis' were not there for otaku. It's debatable they were there for lolicon but the reality is most likely that little girl shows make sense to feature little girls. Otaku culture didn't start in the 80s so even then, it wouldn't make up the 'basis' of the culture.
Bishoujo as a phenomena was much later and did not make up the basis of otaku culture. Sailor Moon and CCS (Which were 90s, not 80s) were the beginnings of the first definite mainstream associations of otaku and 'bishoujo' which brings us back neatly to Di Gi Charat mentioned above which was a parody of the bishoujo phenomena in the 90s. There are also 'waves' of the bishoujo phenomena if you care.
2012 was worse than 2013.
2012 > 2011 > 2010 > 2013
I think 2014 will be better than all of them.
Guilty Crown's hype was in similar vein as Infinite Str/a/tos and Vulvarape. It was fun as a board but I don't think a lot of people think of it as great.
So? Doesn't really disprove my point. Who's to say Azuma has watched every show in order to make the claim that it's a masterpiece? What's to say that there are many gems he hasn't watched that wouldn't be much higher. He's a busy man, he can't spend all his time watching anime - only the mainstream hits that generate a lot of hype.
Steins;Gate is huge in the West. Perhaps bigger than Madoka. On /a/ Penguindrum is possibly #2 of 2011 behind Madoka though things might have changed in S;G's favor with influx of new people over last years (notice I'm not saying S;G is worse, just that it's more entry-level/newfag friendly so with more posters it's opinion might improve). There were also Fate/Zero, AnoHana, The iDOLM@STER, each in different way, according to different people. There were also many gems like Chihayafuru, Tamayura, Mashiroiro, Horizon, new HxH, YrYr, Usagi Drop, Dog Days, Nichijou, Hyouge Mono, Hourou Musuko, Level E which while not as popular and generally as well received (notice I'm speaking relatively, not saying they're bad, personally I think most of those were also great), were also enjoyed by many people and what's very important, at least one of them was exceptional to almost everybody.
Madoka is mostly a japanese phenomenon.
There is a lot of shit more popular everywhere else in the world. Even if you only talk about latenight otaku shows.
Please refrain from praising iM@S when you're also praising GC and bashing Madoka. You're giving iM@S a bad name with your shit taste.
An extremely small number of people liked Penguindrum.
It started out riding the Ikuhara hype train and lost a car with every episode.
Taruto I'd say. She isn't really established as 'magical girl' until the very end.
That's just mentioning shows that were worth attention.
I meant to type "every other scene." Of course I've seen it (stop it with these baseless accusations, would you?) it and it was a very notable element.
They absolutely did care about it. Gunbuster itself is a parody of Ace wo Nerae which does after all have lots of pretty girls and no SF whatsoever
I am aware of the difference between lolicon as a social movement and as a presence in anime, just like I'm aware of the difference between science fiction and science fiction in anime. What you are doing is claiming that lolicon themes have never been important to otaku, which is just not true. You make this "argument" by simply saying that grownups who were obsessed with this particular theme were not "really" otaku, apparently because you say so. Never mind the fucking word itself in its current meaning was introduced in Manga Burikko, a lolicon H manga magazine.
I am also aware that Sailor Moon aired in the '90s, thank you. That's why I put the comma there.
Peguindrum was popular as fuck. Easily the most popular of it's season.
Which is why it's been packing theaters around the globe for the past two years.
>Steins;Gate is huge in the West. Perhaps bigger than Madoka.
No way, Madoka is huge the world over. Singapore went absolutely nuts for it.
>What is Aniplex
Maybe it wasn't #2 of the year in popularity, but it was easily in the top 5.
>The quoted post claimed that 'Madoka is good because all these critics who were around before /a/ said so'
Stop twisting the facts or start reading with some comprehension if you want to be treated seriously.
No. It only used the award and critical acclaim as an argument. That's completely ifferent from what you projected.
Even there it's only revealed that she was one all along. She doesn't become one in the final episode, and the show is not about her decision to become one or not
I as a german can say that it is pretty low here in Germany.
Steins Gate is bigger and hasn't even a german release. Madoka has one - Even with a slightly better than average dub.
Hell, even Guilty Crown is bigger. Atleast it got a TV broadcast.
>What you are doing is claiming that lolicon themes have never been important to otaku
Have never? No. Were never? Yes. Lolicon themes do not make 'the basis' of otaku culture either.
>You make this "argument" by simply saying that grownups who were obsessed with this particular theme were not "really" otaku, apparently because you say so. Never mind the fucking word itself in its current meaning was introduced in Manga Burikko, a lolicon H manga magazine.
It was being used on the streets long before Manga Burriko (which also WASN'T an otaku magazine, FYI).
You seem to think that 'anime fan' = 'otaku'. This is not true and was never ever true.
She basically does and she's not even sure herself if she is a Magical Girl or wants to be one.
Specifically to counter the argument that no knowledgeable person would think it was good enough to deserve one! Only on /a/ is refuting an appeal to imaginary authority by showing the views of real authorities considering poor argumentation
>It's true that it's not that great though.
You're doing it again. How in the world am i supposed to discuss with you when you mistake your personal opinions for absolute facts? How can you be surprised that some of Madoka fans reply to you with just a sarcasm/greentext when you post such statements?
It absolutely was not. I don't know if you were in the echo chamber general threads the entire time, but it dropped off, hard. There was a poll. We have numbers to back it up. More people voted for Guilty Crown than Penguindrum.
If you want to chalk that up to proxyfagging or unrepresentative surveys, that's fine, but I think the almost complete lack of anyone discussing it today, the lack of hype for Ikuhara's return to Sailor Moon, and the dearth of /a/ original content speak for themselves.
People are still mad that it didn't fulfill their retarded expectations.
Because it's not that great. There was nothing really that great about it, it's was kind of cringy if I'm honest. (No offence to anyone who likes it).
Guess it works like this:
>wasn't on /a/ when it aired
>heard from the retard fanbase that it is the most epic anime ever
>it isn't the most epic anime ever
>start shittalking about Madoka
Here is the Japanese Wikipedia article which specifically states that Nakamori Akio coined the term in 1983 in the pages of Manga Burikko. I am aware that people we would today call ani-ota were around after Space Battleship Yamato aired but did not call themselves that
I watched Madoka as it aired and wasn't really very taken with it.
I think it says a lot that you have to watch it without expectations for it to be any good.
CG and Madoka yes, GC not so much. Also, majority of posts in GC threads (which were much more scarce than Madoka/CG threads at their times) were negative, not positive. Not to mention that GC discussions were relatively speaking basically dead by Sunday while CG and Madoka were 24/7.
GC threads were like this:
-This is going to be shit again
-Ready to drop it again?
-This was actually a decent episode this week
-No it wasn't
-Yes it was
-Inori a cute
-Inori a shit
More annoying than Madotards are Urobuchi loyalists who champion every anime his name is associated with despite them all being complete garbage.
Even worse are those who give credit to Gen with anything they like and then if anyone has any criticisms they just say Gen didn't do that part of it. Then there is Madoka where he apparently did everything. You'd be hard pressed to find something he didn't do for that anime.
You can't really use wikipedia to prove a point relating to subcultures. Nakamori Akio may have been the earliest documented case of the term being used, but it was used by otaku before 1983. The word itself is an old fashioned way of saying 'You' or 'Your house', Otaku were known as such because they would use this ultra-polite way of speaking as a result of social awkwardness.
Sorry but wikipedia doesn't really prove anything. Wikipedia has a responsibility to be strictly factual and relies upon sources that can be proven and physically seen, but most subcultures are not born from physical pieces of documentable evidence.
Just wanted to point out, that poll was conducted while Guilty Crown was still airing.
When I said it's #2 i meant the combination of popularity and positive reactions. Popularity-wise alone Penguindrum could be outside of top5.
Code Geass was huge, maybe one of the biggest shitstorms second to Haruhi.
Madoka and Guilty Crown are more like PSG-level shitstorms. They're contained in their own threads and spill out occasionally but they weren't monumentally huge.
Then why haven't any of the people who were around before that (and there are many still active in the industry today) publicly corrected this misapprehension? Why doesn't it appear in anything resembling its current sense in any of the writing that existed before 1983? It's not like there wasn't a ton. Let me guess - you'll claim to be Ichiro Itano's childhood friend next and say you totally heard him say it all the time after coming home from working on Macross
Precisely. Just drop the 'retard' part. Madoka discussions were generally of higher level than most threads which is even more impressive considering no anime has been talked as much at one time in /a/'s history (overall that would be Eva though Madoka might come out on top in few years). CG was possibly bigger in 2007 than Madoka was in 2011 but there were also significantly less people on /a/ back then.
>After a finale
Wow, come back with something like this
>I think it says a lot that you have to watch it without expectations for it to be any good.
There are countless people who had high expectations and Madoka exceed them. Thing is, when you set your expectations very high, it's possible that no anime would satisfy them, no matter how good it is. Every show gets called overrated after all. Madoka more often because it's also much more hyped.
>Madoka discussions were generally of higher level than most threads which is even more impressive considering no anime has been talked as much at one time in /a/'s history
That's the point.
Madoka used to have a decent fanbase with lots of discussions on higher than average levels but today the active fanbase is just retarded and cancerous. Unable to contribute to anything.
>Then why haven't any of the people who were around before that (and there are many still active in the industry today) publicly corrected this misapprehension?
Well actually, people I know have publically corrected him. But of course, they're not active in the industry and most of them don't really care. In fact, some people I know probably aren't even aware of the first written instance of the word 'otaku' in this context, they probably don't care that much.
The fact is here, yes you know more than the average person about otaku culture, but you don't know enough and everything you're trying to discuss here is a distraction from your initial argument which is that Madoka is an 'akiba-kei' anime. This is supposed to form the basis for your argument that Madoka winning the Animation Grand Prize is somehow a shocker. You claim that it's more suprising for Madoka to win the Animation Grand Prize than Tatami Galaxy which won it a year before.
Madoka is no more 'Akiba-kei' than Tatami Galaxy. It doesn't matter what genre it is. Akiba-kei has had 0 relevance since after 2004-2005 for reasons you should be familiar with if you actually knew about Akihabara and otaku culture. And this is the issue here, you're diverted massively on the single point that a mainstream anime winning a mainstream award is shocking when it isn't.
I made this shitty poll for you guys since strawpoll is down
Time to decide whether or not Madoka is really the best
/a/'s mentality changed, spamming the board wasn't as cool in 2011 anymore.
Madoka constantly had several threads hitting the bump limit all the time and some smaller threads every day.
The image is too small to see, but all of the frontpage threads were in a 2 minute interval, compared to a full 30 minute interval in either Code Geass screencap.
Link to full image:
>There are countless people who had high expectations and Madoka exceed them.
But there are also countless people who had no expectations and Madoka didn't live up to them.
Or to rephrase this, as it sounds a little contradictory:
There are also countless people who had no expectations and Madoka didn't impress them
Well, the show ended so there's obviously less to talk about. Like in case of every other anime, we're mostly left with talking about characters. madoka was more popular than any other anime on /a/, o it's characters are also discussed more. Really simple, it's just a difference of scale.
>but today the active fanbase is just retarded and cancerous. Unable to contribute to anything
Anon pls. You don't expect me to reply seriously to shit like that, right?
Madoka was also voted the most overrated anime in Japan too.
Kiniro Mosaic. How is this even being argued over?
>ten threads with ten posts each > four threads with a hundred posts each
How nice of you to put the best one first.
>Anon pls. You don't expect me to reply seriously to shit like that, right?
Do you want to defend the shitposting that happens in the Madoka threads 24/7?
You can't discuss shit. I tried it because i liked the show.
But you can't hold a decent discussion without getting interrupted by a yurifag and his shitty fanart or a memefag.
>But there are also countless people who had no expectations and Madoka didn't live up to them.
But that doesn't mean it's suddenly a bad show.
Just because you replied to me doesn't mean you proved your point. Keep track of the discussion.
White Album 2
Search for their other polls. MAL poll would be more relevant.
Publically means "in public." With a record. Show me. Anyone can claim they know people who say every expert source is wrong. You're blowing hot air if you're just asking someone to believe you with no proof
It is not any kind of distraction. The common (and correct!) image of Akihabara in 2011 was of tokusatsu, robots, maids, idols, etc. This was true if to a lesser extent well before the private rail, Densha Otoko, the 2009 boom, blah blah blah. It was even true of otaku culture if not the metonymic "Akiba" in the 1980s. Tatami doesn't fit into that mold at all. It's not made for those people, nor for people who want to be those people as you will no doubt claim; never mind that I proved three hours ago that plenty of people who have actual evidence that they are otaku aristocrats have praised it effusively and you still haven't acknowledged being completely wrong when you said that wasn't possible. It's just a different kind of thing.
>madofags think their shitty anime is better than Yamato 2199
I don't think Madoka was a bad show. It was a decent show in a mediocre year. But when we start drifting into 'One of the best of all time' or 'Masterpiece' territory I have to disagree.
It's not better than the original. It's better than the shitty remake, no question
People are discussing Madoka in this thread right now. Where's the fanart? Where's the yurispam?
>Do you want to defend the shitposting that happens in the Madoka threads 24/7?
It isn't any worse than majority of other thread on /a/. You're being incredibly unfair by blaming Madoka for something that is norm on /a/.
Feel free to disagree. No one cares. Just don't go around saying that anybody who knows anything would disagree, because that's just not true.
You can disagree but you have no right to tell people who think that it's masterpiece that they can't do that. Do you get the difference?
This isn't a Madoka thread. If OP would have chosen a Madoka picture it might be another case though.
I don't blame Madoka for having shitposting fans.
It's not by a long shot.
It's better, if anything. I can't remember the last day that went by without a Madoka thread full of walls of text. Probably hasn't been one since it aired
>I don't blame Madoka for having shitposting fans.
You're being incredibly unfair by saying that Madoak has shitposting fans. Every other show has shitposting fans as well. Your point is meaningless.
>Every other show has shitposting fans as well
Yes but not every show has shitposting fans who have nearly generals here
It was derailed into Madoka thread by autists who have allergy to this image: >>101913602
>Publically means "in public." With a record. Show me. Anyone can claim they know people who say every expert source is wrong. You're blowing hot air if you're just asking someone to believe you with no proof
Well I'm already aware of that, but you'll just have to take my word for it.
>The common (and correct!) image of Akihabara in 2011 was of tokusatsu, robots, maids, idols, etc
Well not quite, actually. Akihabara in 2011 was a very very different place from Akihabara in 2004, 2001, 1997 and 1988.
>This was true if to a lesser extent well before the private rail, Densha Otoko, the 2009 boom, blah blah blah
Not as such, no. Akihabara in 2009 onward was a very different place to Akihabara in 2008 (And I'm completely ignoring the massacre in this). In 2009 'otaku' culture became mainstream, moreso than it did with Densha. From that point onward a series having 'Akiba-kei merit' is meaningless, because absolutely every series had 'akiba-kei' merit at this time. You're aware of the niwaka trend and the massive pop culture explosion of 'otaku' in Japan aren't you? I wrote about this at length yesterday and I can find the thread for you if you'd like to find out more.
We already did one of these in 2011. It got about 40% of the vote with about the same number of votes as #2 and #3 combined
There will never be another pasta as epic as the ">There will never be another anime as epic as Madoka" pasta.
Potemayo pasta is superior
Sliced bread a shit
>there will never be another anime as epic as Madoka
>i want to suck on the Mumi titts
>i want to sniff Kyouko's farts
>HOMURA DID NOTHING WRONG
>Mumi Mumi *shake* *shake*
>''Do you guys liek mai Sayaka fanfic with her getting impregnanted by Kyokou appels?'
You'll just have to take my word for it that everything in Akiba is exactly the same today as it was in 1975. My friend told me, honest
I am very much of aware of the ceaseless anal agony of roreny Japs on 2ch. I am also aware that the image of toku, maids, moeblobs, catgirls, mecha, idols, and all of that existed prior to 2009 and even prior to 2004, and i don't even need to rely on the unrecorded testimony or unnamed figures to prove it.
As I said, it's just a matter of scale. It has more fans, so they post more. You can't say they are worse. If you actually go and compare the quality, Madoka certainly isn't lower.
Also, fuck you and your blanket policy. iM@S threads are the only successful general on /a/. They're of higher quality than majority of threads on /a/ and actually contribute content (like translating stuff, not just making gifs/shoops) unlike vast majority of threads on /a/. You're cancer for being a blind sheep unable to think for himself, you are only capable of spouting popular lines in an attempt to fit in.
>It has more fans, so they post more.
Most of their threads are slow as fuck and they often emergency bump them because no replies
> iM@S threads are the only successful general on /a/. They're of higher quality than majority of threads on /a/ and actually contribute content
Way to show that you are one of those circlejerking faggots who should have moved their asses to /vg/ ages ago.
I remember poor-chan
Shame I don't have any of those comics that were made
Yeah but there are threads all the time. Other shows have as slow threads but less often.
I stopped browsing iM@S threads in the middle of 2012. I only look at them from time to time and see they're still going well and being active with all the iM@S-related content. Unlike basically any other fanbase. But well, nice insults, you sure showed me. Also good to see you weren't able to deny you're a sheep.
Your average Madotard thread 2014.
>You'll just have to take my word for it that everything in Akiba is exactly the same today as it was in 1975. My friend told me, honest
Well now you're just throwing all your toys out of the pram.
It's no secret to anyone that Akihabara has changed a lot over the years. Even just 2007-2009 was a huge huge difference, if you've been there you'd know.
>I am very much of aware of the ceaseless anal agony of roreny Japs on 2ch.
That's just silly too, 'niwaka' exists outside of 2ch and was also coined before 2ch too. You can't just try and pretend the whole thing isn't happening because you associate it with 2ch. That's like claiming that trolls and spammers aren't real outside of 4chan.
>I am also aware that the image of toku, maids, moeblobs, catgirls, mecha, idols, and all of that existed prior to 2009 and even prior to 2004
They did but in very very different forms. Also when AKB48 formed, they put idol otaku on the map specifically in Akihabara. Prior to then, idol otaku were not specifically associated with Akiba, but Akimoto saw the buying power of anime otaku and wanted to combine that with the fanatical power of idol otaku and thus AKB48 was formed.
So actually, you are wrong. Akihabara HAS changed a lot, as has otaku culture. Since it went mainstream in Japan, it really doesn't matter if a so called 'Akiba-kei' anime goes mainstream or wins an award because 'Akiba-kei' is a useless word.
>even that shitty thread produced more valuable content than 99+% of the threads here by translating a mango
>such small shit.
Nope, it isn't an average thread. Most of Madoka fans were in other thread(-s).
Shitposting at its finest.
Here is their gallery.
But yeah, keep defending it.
You are truly dense, aren't you? The point is that I can have "my friend who was totally there, honest" say whatever I want whenever I want to ignore inconvenient arguments that prove I don't know what I am talking about. Like you did with Nakamori Akio.
>implying it wasn't some shitty troll
I wouldn't be surprised if you were the one who posted it, that would explain why you know about this thread.
Try harder you faggot.
I got it from this.
I know you can, the point wasn't missed on me but it's still childish. I'm telling you what I know with full confidence and understanding that I can't 'prove it'. The difference is that I am telling you the truth. Sure I could be 'making it up' but what would be the point in arguing down this much only to lie about something insignificant? It just makes no sense.
I didn't ignore the point about Nakamori, I told you straight up that it was used before then and I know a number of 1st wave otaku who can confirm this for themselves. You can sit there and say "HE'S LYING!!" to make yourself feel better, but it's not going to change anything.
Madokafags defend their shit show like a 14 year old girl would defend Justin Bieber, its cringeworthy to say the least.
i don't care where you got it. The fact it didn't even cross your mind that could be not a madoka fan and fact that you're trying to judge the whole fanbase based on a single link proves you're retarded. If God was still here he would commit sudoku and make you do the same.
Congratulations, you're person #6,708,412,365 who reached the very bottom of stupidity.
And you once again resort to insults, unable to refute a single argument.
That was my first post.
"you" can be plural. Learn English before shitposting.
Or get some IQ. You were talking about group of people so it's natural I responded about a group of people.
The best way would be simply not posting though.
I saw that same insult earlier today. Good job.
You lied about knowing of "a bunch" of important people who said MadoMagi wasn't good at the very beginning of this discussion. Why would stop now? I even said you tell that lie in the post you responded to by making it!
But never mind that is an abundantly attested view, accepted by scholars and famous first wave otaku both, that Nakamori's use was the first in the current sense. The fact that those people would find the story credible in the first place proves that Manga Burriko, a lolicon magazine, was part of the otaku culture of the early '80s, and therefore that bishojo have been a vital element of the otaku imagination for decades, that works capitalizing on the desire of adult males for pretty 2D middle school girls are in fact a part of that culture, and therefore MadoMagi is in fact Akiba-kei in a way that Tatami Galaxy is not. Now we're returned to the stuff that's actually relevant, let's continue from there
My grounds for disliking Madoka are this:
>Execution felt cringy
>Art had some serious QUALITY moments (not a deal breaker)
>Not keen on the visual style/soft color palette
>I felt like it tried too hard to be 'The mahou shoujo show with a difference!' which kind of made me roll my eyes
>I felt that the characters had the personality of soggy salad and fell too neatly into average 'anime' archetypes
>The theme of 'despair' rang hollow to me. I certainly didn't feel any despair and it seemed to be (I know I'm going to get shitposted for this) ...forced?
Best Key girl
Strike Witches General
Daily Japanese Thread
Monster girl General
Sad panda general
Out of those only the daily japanese, buyfag and drawfag have something like a purpose. The rest are just circlejerks.
If this trend continues we might get a /ag/ case but i guess moot would rather nuke all those generals instead of doing that just like last time when he forced the SW autists to quit.
I was in that thread. It was just some guy shitposting constantly about how the Madoka fanbase was so bad. When people called him out on his samefag, he went all out with "WELL I GUESS THE MADOKAFAGS ARE HERE NOW."
You can tell he was trolling anyway by the last desperate posts that don't even quote anyone. If you're him or agree with him, then you're legitimately retarded.
This is copy-pasted from an earlier thread, just don't give him replies.
It's like he's trying to become the new gorespammer or something.
>You lied about knowing of "a bunch" of important people who said MadoMagi wasn't good at the very beginning of this discussion. Why would stop now?
No I didn't, there are a bunch of people. I remember the shitstorm on twitter. It's not a lie if it actually happened, regardless of whether or not I can recall the names.
>But never mind that is an abundantly attested view, accepted by scholars and famous first wave otaku both, that Nakamori's use was the first in the current sense.
No, not really. It's not the first in the current sense. I just told you it isn't. You can put your fingers in your ears and call it lies all you want, but it's your loss in the end. You're the one who loses out. I don't walk away from this as being wrong; you do.
>Manga Burriko, a lolicon magazine, was part of the otaku culture of the early '80s
>therefore that bishojo have been a vital element of the otaku imagination for decades
Irrelevant. And you're semantically confusing A) Bishoujo with the bishoujo phenomena and B) Lolicon with bishoujo. Lolicon != bishoujo.
>that works capitalizing on the desire of adult males for pretty 2D middle school girls are in fact a part of that culture
Irrelevant due to being incorrect. See above.
>MadoMagi is in fact Akiba-kei in a way that Tatami Galaxy is not
Ah, but in 2011 both were equally Akiba-kei. Madoka had large amounts of mainstream fans who had nothing to do with Akiba, Tatami Galaxy didn't. 'Akiba-kei' is irrelevant past Densha because it became a bastardized term at that point. There's no significance in being 'akiba-kei' in 2011 because 'Akiba-kei' is just about known by everybody. So it does not give Madoka the edge in an award.
You've got your mainstream/underground polarity all mixed up. This is precisely why you toss the term 'niwaka' away as 2ch shit - because you don't understand it and you don't understand how otaku culture has changed since then.
You need to update your copypasta; not all of those exist. And you could change "Out of those only the daily japanese, buyfag and drawfag have something like a purpose" to "Only the ones that aren't actually about anime and manga have a purpose."
>I felt like it tried too hard to be 'The mahou shoujo show with a difference!'
I don't think it really did this. It just tried to give the audience the same illusion that the characters had
>thread talks shit about Madoka or its fanbase
>must be one guy samefagging
I am not that guy. I was in this thread as well and i saw how awful Madokafags on /a/ can be. There were a lot of people complaining about it. But later they changed the topic anyways.
"Only the ones that aren't actually about anime and manga have a purpose."
Way to justify your cancerous circlejerks. Buyfag threads are related to anime because people buy anime related goods.
The japanese thread is here because /jp/ has a different culture than /a/ and it wouldn't work out moving there. And drawfagging has a creative purpose.
Nobody needs circlejerk threads. It only creates cancer.
You just keep repeating it but never try to prove it (posting a single post made by troll or spouting general statements doesn't count as proff).
This tactic only worked for Stalin because he had no alive opposition.
>I was in this thread as well and i saw how awful Madokafags on /a/ can be.
Yes, that's not a shocking revelation to anyone on /a/, even people who casually like Madoka. And there's no way you can ignore the obvious samefag since normal people don't post the exact same thing that's been said already 50 times over earlier in the thread.
And no, the cancerous Madoka fanbase wasn't there either, you would have known if they had showed up.
>So how has the 2010s been so far? Not counting 2014, what would your ranking of the years be like?
Well, that's that.
>And no, the cancerous Madoka fanbase wasn't there either, you would have known if they had showed up.
Since when do they care?
You're wrong with saying they're circlejerks. Especially in case of iM@S which has heavily enforced policy to refrain from circlejerking and image dumping.
Last reply from me, shitposter-kun.
2012< all of the others years because of Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure.
>hey, lets talk about anime in 2011!
>Madoka is shit
>Gb2 tumblr Madotards
It's just some guy trying to derail threads by spamming his opinion on Madoka. He's trying to bait fans into creating a shitfest in threads that aren't even about the show.
>No I didn't, there are a bunch of people. I remember the shitstorm on twitter. It's not a lie if it actually happened, regardless of whether or not I can recall the names.
As far as I'm considered "just happening to forget" the names of the famous important people involved when asked what they are proves it's a lie beyond any doubt. Not to mention that if this had actually happened anti-Madoka would be spamming it non-stop on 2ch and elsewehre; they don't because this never happened.
>No, not really. It's not the first in the current sense. I just told you it isn't. You can put your fingers in your ears and call it lies all you want, but it's your loss in the end. You're the one who loses out. I don't walk away from this as being wrong; you do.
You can tell me whatever you want, just don't expect anyone to care if you can't back it up
>Irrelevant. And you're semantically confusing A) Bishoujo with the bishoujo phenomena and B) Lolicon with bishoujo. Lolicon != bishoujo
It is not irrelevant. 2D lolicon is a subset of 2D bishoujo in general. They do not need to be exactly the same thing. Jap Wiki article on the Lolicon Boom even specifies that it is part of otaku culture and its attraction to chara
>blah blah blah
Look, if buttblasted Japs want to claim Akiba today is the same as any other street in Tokyo they can feel free to. If you want to pretend you believe that a mahou shoujo team anime has no more of an otaku image than Tatami Galaxy go ahead, I doubt you're even fooling yourself
Yeah, totally not a circlejerk thread with people who care about post quality.
It's nothing but image reposts and waifufags claiming they love their girl.
le monogatari face
You don't even know what circlejerk means.
>People claiming they like a character and post images
>it's a crime on /a/!
Stop posting. Your opinions are fine and you can keep them but your explanations are totally devoid of any coherent ideas or actual criticism and "cringe-y" is a word only 13 year old girls use.
Also you clearly don't know what a fucking theme is so let me educate you. A theme is not a single noun that you try to paste all over the whole show. A theme is not tone. A theme is a complete idea that the author is trying to convey, discuss, or explore. It's a full sentence. Some higher meaning to try to interpret from the literal narrative presented.
Just a random idea:
What would Madoka be like if it was written by 07th Expansion?
>As far as I'm considered "just happening to forget" the names of the famous important people involved when asked what they are proves it's a lie beyond any doubt. Not to mention that if this had actually happened anti-Madoka would be spamming it non-stop on 2ch and elsewehre; they don't because this never happened.
But it did happen, if you were around you should know it. I already gave one example and I know there were others including tweets that were deleted which made some people on 2ch suspicious.
>You can tell me whatever you want, just don't expect anyone to care if you can't back it up
Well that's your loss then, you yourself know that you're turning away from the truth.
>It is not irrelevant. 2D lolicon is a subset of 2D bishoujo in general.
But it's NOT related to the bishoujo phenomena
>Jap Wiki article on the Lolicon Boom even specifies that it is part of otaku culture and its attraction to chara
See this is where you always go wrong. I told you before that wikipedia is not a credible source for subculture. You could look back today at MC5 and Detroit Garage bands as being very punkish in their attitudes, but that's not to say they had anything to do with Punk as a subculture.
You can take anything and say it's reminiscent of something else, but it doesn't mean that at that time it WAS related. Lolicon culture was separate from otaku culture, sure they might have crossed over later, but they were not from the same tree.
> If you want to pretend you believe that a mahou shoujo team anime has no more of an otaku image than Tatami Galaxy go ahead, I doubt you're even fooling yourself
I'm not claiming it has the same image, I'm claiming that the perception of otaku culture has changed so much that it having an 'otaku image' is irrelevant to the awards it won. Stop disregarding everything as 'buttblasted japs' when you don't know anything about it.
It would be Higurashi
Yeah, keep pretending to be retarded or dense.
All those guys in the threads know eachother. This isn't the first time they post their waifus.
Same shit also happens in every other general-like thread.
The drawfag one has people knowing certain drawfags and requesters as well and the buyfag has their own tripfags posing.
>and "cringe-y" is a word only 13 year old girls use.
No it's not, please don't turn this into ad hominem.
He's right. It is, in fact, such a word. I bet you use tvtropes.
I really liked Non Non Biyori
It absolutely is.
Cringey is a word you use when something makes you cringe because it's embarrassing to watch.
It's got nothing to do with 13 year old girls.
Some of them can recognize some of posts made by people they know. So what? They could be circlejerking but they aren't because they don't want to.
Your whole argument is that it's wrong because they do it in more threads than other fanbases. There's no logic here. You aren't talking about quality which isn't any worse than rest of /a/. You're disregarding the fact iM@S threads besides being fun like normal /a/ threads are also useful. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them, you're only thinking under th principle that generals are bad because they're bad, unable to post a single coherent argument why is it so.
Nope, it isn't. Unless you're 13.
Damn, the foundations of modern anime are downright pathetic. No wonder it's a medium primarily for teenagers or manchildren.
I can't really distinguish anymore since I watch way too much. I only know that I didn't like 2010.
You claim to have been around. Why don't you know anything about it?
>blah blah blah subculture
The English Wikipedia article makes the distinction between garage rock and punk rock in its introduction. The Jap Wiki article is well-sourced and widely corroborated by people who can prove they were there. If you actually expect anyone to believe it's wrong just because you say you knew someone who was there but can't provide a shred of evidence you need a reality check.
It is not "reminiscent" it's a part of the same thing. "Biyoujo" is used in the same context by the same people and indisputably refers to lolis (unless your "friend" has told you otherwise of course!). I have already proven they are not separate. Let me prove it again
>But never mind that is an abundantly attested view, accepted by scholars and famous first wave otaku both, that Nakamori's use was the first in the current sense. The fact that those people would find the story credible in the first place proves that Manga Burriko, a lolicon magazine, was part of the otaku culture of the early '80s
This is a well-supported argument. You saying it's wrong and nothing else does nothing to refute it.
This argument is over and I have won unless you can provide some fucking evidence to support the original claim that only those with low powerlevels would think is exceptional.
Let's look it up, shall we?
Well, look at this, it's not a real word and the most authoritative definition available is citing some fandom and facebook walls while giving examples that include "OMG soo :(".
Sorry, but this term has been conclusively proven to be 13 year old girl slang.
But you haven't 'won' because you're wrong.
All you care about is being right, not listening to what people have to say and learning something new to fill in your patchwork knowledge of Otaku culture and akihabara throughout the years.
You know nothing, and it's pretty obvious you don't want to learn anything else. So go away, go be wrong somewhere else. Wikipedia is not a reputable source for subculture matters, it has not been and never will been.
>The Jap Wiki article is well-sourced and widely corroborated by people who can prove they were there.
Okay, what if I get some of my friends who can also prove they were there to write the opposite, then what? Then you're wrong. Anyone can write anything on wikipedia and anything pertaining to subcultures can never be asserted as being 100% correct. This is why I prefer to take facts from people who have actually been there and told me about it, instead of some 'source' which can only hold claim to having the first *documented* instance.
Find me the first book or magazine to mention the word 'Punk' or 'raver' or 'hippie'. You can bet that people were using those terms before they were officially published.
You haven't even addressed Yappie culture, which is why I know you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Too bad wikipedia won't give you all the answers for that one. Guess it must not exist, right?
Oh and by the way, using greentext and 'Blah blah' or 'hurr everyone who disagrees with me is buttblasted!!' doesn't make you correct, you'd go far to understand that. But as I said, you don't care about the truth - else you'd know a lot more about it.
Madoka is shit.
This is NOT an opinion. This is a FACT.
Let me explain why:
1) The characters
Nothing special. Classic stereotypes which pander to the shitty otaku taste. Madoka the useless, Homu the first badass - Later cute and innocent, Mami the tits, Sayaka the justice who fails and makes you want to protect her and Kyouko the homo you would like to comfort.
2) The direction
Shinbo really went ALL-IN here.
Trrying really hard to put all kind of shit on the screen to make it look special. Too bad it fails most of the time because it just has no meaning and distracts from the plot.
Grimderp Mahou Shoujo version Nr.15636. CCS and Sailor Moon did all of that before and better. The show tries really hard with the big moments in episode 3, 10 and 12. Too bad everything besides that was mostly boring.
Overall rating: 3/10
The anime gets some points for hitting the right notes at some points but that's it. With the direction either being hit or miss and the characters being standard i cannot allow to rate this show even average.
It sure is a show that is worth watching for the big moments and for the interesting but bad combination of Gen Urobuchi writing and retarded Shinbo direction but that's it.
Parasyte? No fucking way... i missed that.
This year? I hope they won't fuck this up. This could get seriously great if done well.
OP reporting in. I'm just pleasantly surprised that this thread is still alive. Never made one so successful.
And Madoka is a large part of why I rank 2011 as the best of the 2010s so far, but even without it 2011 was strong enough and had enough depth to be noticeably better than the the other 2010s years.
I would not call believing everything people devoted enough to proving themselves right to argue for four hours on /a/ tell them "learning." Maybe you would
>Okay, what if I get some of my friends who can also prove they were there to write the opposite, then what?
I asked you to do that three hours ago and you said you couldn't. Has anything changed?
Would you have any difficulty proving they existed, even with Wikipedia? Nope, tons of attestation for them. A historian's dream. Tons of documentary evidence disproving your claims though
Still waiting for you to address the fact that people who can prove they were there and are therefore infinitely more credible than you and your imaginary friend believe that the modern sense of "otaku" first appeared in Manga Burikko in 1983. At least get to that if you don't want to (or - admit it! - can't) provide evidence for your original claim
>liking 2013 that much
The fuck? It was the worst year in forever
>Nope, tons of attestation for them. A historian's dream
I wouldn't go that far.
Oh okay, the international symbol for "I'm ignorant on this topic".
Whatever dude, you can sit there and claim wikipedia is the only credible source, you can sit there and tell me that it hasn't happened unless it's documented and never happened before that point, you can sit there and tell me everything you read off Japanese wikipedia as if I haven't seen it for myself and as if I don't know but you're way behind.
But sure, sit there browsing wiki waiting for the information to trickle down to you as it becomes 'known'. I don't really care.
You're not otaku and you don't know anything about the culture. That much is obvious. Your powerlevel is low and you sound like you're late teens/early 20s at best.
We're done here, the only claims you believe are the ones you post yourself, so there would be no point in posting anything even if it did prove you wrong.
But sure, niwaka doesn't exist. Akihabara has never ever changed and wikipedia is right about everything.
Maybe one day when you actually live and work in Japan you might be lucky enough to find someone who does know about the culture well enough to remind you of this thread and of the things I told you.
But as I said, as long as you cling onto wikipedia for every piece of information, it'll only ever trickle down.
When you need to resort to such ludicrous strawmen to make yourself sound like you have something to say it's time to admit to yourself that you're wrong. Yes, I don't believe people who contradict the statements of people who I have very good reason to believe have first hand knowledge when they don't present any reason to believe them besides "trust me." I question the sanity of anyone would. I have presented hard evidence and you have presented hearsay. If you are right, prove it; if, as you have all but admitted, you can't, don't expect anyone to believe you.
You could fill top5 with iyashikei, that was a good year. Also, AKB0048 Next Stage, one of my all time favs. Mondaiji, DAL, Chihayafuru 2, VVV, Symphogear G, DxD New, surprisingly KamiNomi (I was sure it would be a trainwreck with so much cut off), NnA, KlK, Magi 2, Arpeggio. Plenty of nice shows, I can see why some rate it high. 2011 was much better though and 2012 was also higher level.
>blah blah strawmen
Hey look! I can do it too.
It's pretty simple to comprehend; anyone who knows anything about how subcultures work knows that 'documented sources' are not the final be-all and end-all of anything.
You should know this, if you claim to know so much about otaku culture, becuase if you did you'd know the best source are the people who've been there an experienced it firsthand.
But sure, keep telling me I'm 'lying' because you don't want to believe it. I don't really care, I can literally start talking to one of my 1st wave friends right now and we can laugh at your ignorance together.
Chihayafuru was the only really good show from 2013, and 2010 also had Chihayafuru. VVV a shit, first season of symphogear was bad, didn't bother with sequel, KamiNomi is boring, KlK is /v/shit, NnA is good though, but it's didnt even finish airing in 2013
>but it's didnt even finish airing in 2013
Nice to see you don't even know how anime years are judged. You've been on /a/ for quite some time, how about actually lurking for once instead of attention whoring?
I know man, but it's not even done airing. But alright I'll give that one to you, it was pretty good. Also apparently I didn't watch a lot of the ones you think are really good, but I don't like most of the ones I did watch you think are good so oh well
Nakamori Akio was there first hand, was he not? Tons of people were, many of them before anime-mania was even a thing and none of them have ever told anyone (besides you, apparently) that the word was used in its modern sense prior to 1983. Your persistent refusal to answer the question of why people who CAN prove they are first generation otaku accept the fact that it was first used in the modern sense in 1983 by Nakamori is damning. Did they just forget or what?
For an iyashikei fan 2013 is good by definition, I think it's only natural to see some of them on /a/.
>Nakamori Akio was there first hand, was he not?
Nakamori wasn't actually otaku, I believe he even said himself he is not otaku. He's beyond 1st wave, even.
>Your persistent refusal to answer the question of why people who CAN prove they are first generation otaku accept the fact that it was first used in the modern sense in 1983 by Nakamori is damning.
I already told you, essentially - they could. But who's going to listen. I could quite easily tell one of the Japanese 1st wave friends I have to edit wikipedia with the first mentions of the word 'otaku' that he remembers, but then what? Even if he could prove that he was around then, would it ever become common knowledge? No, it probably wouldn't and you probably wouldn't even believe it, which is exactly why it's a waste of time.
>News flash! Random otaku who was actually around in the earliest days of the subculture corrects common sources on Nakamori Akio not being the first person to coin the word 'otaku'.
It's not gonna happen. My friends were closer to ground level than Nakamori ever was, but Nakamori is a someone. No matter how wrong he is, he will take precedence over a nobody, regardless of whether or not that nobody knows far more than him.
That's why it's useless. I was aware even before this debate started that it was <sources written online> vs <word of mouth>. I already knew what I was getting myself into, I just made the mistake in thinking that you would be smart enough to know that if you really want to know about a culture, you ask someone who was there, not someone who does commentary.
Hey, for all we know Nakamori started the word, spread it around and then officially coined it a few years later. But the point still stands, it does actually predate his official 'coining'.
My advice is go to Akihabara, make some friends with some old otaku (well you probably won't find them around Akiba anymore) but you should know where they are if you're serious about this.
Ask them to tell you everything about what it was really like in the early days. You'll be very surprised by what they say, even if it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here. Street knowledge will teach you shit that never made it to the internet. I'm lucky enough in that I'm pretty old myself and got to see things before they changed and changed and changed again, but even I don't know what was happening in the earliest days.
Sticking to the most technically accurate information may help you in court, but as far as I'm concerned if you're in this deep you should want to know more and you wouldn't limit yourself by only believing the people who are important enough to be heard.
There are tons of people who were there, not just Nakamori. Did Shoji Kawamori ever correct the public record? Okada Toshio? Plenty of first wave otaku went on to become somebody. Why haven't any of them said the common narrative is wrong? Lord knows Okada has no problem pontificating about the subject
If I met somebody like that at a Super Sentai event or wherever I would take what they had to say as accurate to their lived experience. If you can't see the difference between this and believing whatever some faggot on 4chan who says he was TOTALLY THERE GUIZE tells you with no proof - when proof he is wrong already exists! - I'm at a loss. Reasoning with someone like that is just impossible
>There are tons of people who were there, not just Nakamori. Did Shoji Kawamori ever correct the public record? Okada Toshio? Plenty of first wave otaku went on to become somebody. Why haven't any of them said the common narrative is wrong? Lord knows Okada has no problem pontificating about the subject
Okada is a little bit beyond 1st wave too. Why hasn't Okada mentioned it? Who knows. I've met Okada and never asked him at the time, I'm not even sure I knew at the time actually. Up until this thread started it was a pretty trivial piece of information even to me.
>If I met somebody like that at a Super Sentai event or wherever I would take what they had to say as accurate to their lived experience.
Just as I did, but with many people who all say the same thing.
> If you can't see the difference between this and believing whatever some faggot on 4chan who says he was TOTALLY THERE GUIZE tells you with no proof - when proof he is wrong already exists! - I'm at a loss.
I don't think so, I trust my friends and I don't treat them the same as someone on 4chan. But even then, I would still consider the viewpoint of the person on 4chan. I don't disregard the message because of the origin of the messenger.
Yes, reasoning like that IS impossible. There is no 'reason' in my point, or at least there's no evidence. I've told you this about three times already. But I am giving you the chance to take on board what I'm saying and investigate for yourself. When it comes to subcultures and scenes, the internet only goes so far.
A trivial piece of information you claim to have a claer memory of more than one person telling you, of course. "Many" people! Now one of them has a name; of course you admit he's never said what you claim everybody who was there knows, even though he's easily the second most person involved in creating the modern sense of the word. Seems like something he'd want to get out there, don't you think? Man cares about enough otaku history to write books about it.
As for your viewpoint, I've considered it. If you could provide the tiniest shred of evidence you weren't a bullshitter I would take it seriously; since you can't stop bragging about how you could laugh with your first generation friends but also can't provide a shred of evidence you've ever met one I decided to dismiss it. You can't even produce a piece of paper from an old Comiket saying you're right.
And this is all irrelevant. The points in question are: Does the fact that first generation otaku have publicly agreed with the "Nakamori coined the word" narrative not prove that Manga Burikko was an otaku magazine, and why not? Seriously, how does it not?
>b-but if you moved to Japan just to meet fifty-year-old men you would see that I'm right and even the scholars WHO WERE THERE are wrong!
Most greentext paraphrases aren't half as retarded as this and I'm not even exaggerating!
I went to Akiba 3-4 years ago (mid-2010).
Akiba was otaku as hell. There were otaku around, not necessarily the ultra creepy ones, but there were plenty.
If you want to go full otaku and see plenty of them, then you have to go to Comiket. That being said, if you also want to get the good stuff, you need to get there early, and by early, I mean, you need to take the first train to get there.
You should have seen it in the early 2000s, the vibe was completely different. 2010 was Niwakamania, I know a couple of people who moved out of Akiba when this happened. One quit his job with animate because the kids were annoying him so much. I went to the K-ON movie showing and there were schoolkids having to be pulled off the screens. Most people go to Akiba to be seen, or they come from outside of Tokyo wanting the maid cafe experience. There are lots of foreigners in Akihabara now too.
2010 and 2012 didn't really have much going for them
You really do get around, don't you? Everything that becomes famous on the Japanese Internet you just happen to have experienced first hand. It's truly incredible
Yeah I do, it's called being a fan. I've been watching anime probably before you were born and I can bet I've been to Akiba a shitload more than you have.
Animage article from the May 1982
Lolicon and anime otaku have nothing to do with each other guys! My friend in Japan told me!
But it is a close race. I do not agree with the 2011 obsession.
Lolicon wasn't restricted to otaku though, even Yappie tendancies are reported as being lolicon too. It's not an otaku culture thing, that's a Japanese culture thing. Fujoshi are essentially the same with shota, some people find that thing hot. Lolicon art exists for the same reason incestuous are exists. Because it is sexy to some people and can be drawn. Same reason fucking Sonic porn exists. Doesn't mean it was ever created for one type of fan in mind
Liking anime in general isn't restricted to otaku, and no one said it was! I swear you've moved the goalposts up to your starting line and you still can't get there. I hope I never become the kind of person who would rather pretend yappie were the only people reading Animage in 1982 than give up an argument on the Internet
Not him of course, but would you give me the link to the thread?
I think you're just making things up now. This is what, the 6th time in this thread you've 'accidentally' missed the point and turned something against me.
It's late and it's my anime time now, go away. We already established this was not going to work.
You didn't even make a relevant point. "Lolicon fetishism isn't exclusive to otaku, so it's totally unrelated!" is a ridiculous statement as even you probably know, though I'm beginning to have my doubts. If it's showing up in the first hundred issues of Animage it is part of the otaku culture of the time; case closed. Ah, but I forget, secondary sources are meaningless, primary sources are meaningless, the only reliable thing out there is your imaginary friends
Don't tell me you're jealous?
If these people are telling you this stuff wasn't around in the early '80s you're making them up. It's completely obvious
And yet never once did I say that.
You have said numerous times that lolicon was not a part of otaku culture in the 1980s. Like most of your claims, this has been definitively debunked. The fact that it's so easy for me to find documentary evidence proving that whatever source you're getting your information from is full of shit ought to give you at least some pause. And yes, these alleged friends of yours are a source, before you try and pull that.
It's not related to Otaku culture intrinsically. No more than cosplay is.
Neither is mecha yet you'd look at anyone who said mecha was not a vital part of what it means to be ani-ota like they were crazy. A relationship does not need to be intrinsic to exist or to be important
mecha was before lolicon. See I never denied that there wasn't a crossover in the 80s (We've just been talking about Nakamori) but then otaku culture didn't start in the 80s either.
I wouldn't know since I didn't browse /a/ regularly after 2008 when it went to complete sit. It's kind of okay now though, despite having one of the more miserable userbases on the site.
I feel sorry for people who missed out on 2006 /a/. Good times
2007 was amazing as well, but yeah RIP classic 4chan
And mecha existed over a decade before otaku! The point is that we see lolicon and other otaku subjects mingled together as early as 1979 when otaku culture had really came into existence as recently as late 1975. 2D lolicon has part of otaku culture for 90% of it existence
So has cosplay, but it's not an intrinsic part of otaku culture.
2011 > 2010 > 2012 > 2013
Only liking anime and manga can be called intrinsic parts of (anime) otaku culture. Obviously. I don't know why you're so fixated on this. The point is that 2D lolicon has been an important feature in anime and manga, and appreciated by this audience, for almost the entire period in which they existed. It's as vital and old as real robots, but you wouldn't call Tomino somone who lacks sufficient experience with the medium to distinguish exceptional works from mundane ones, would you? But your original argument requires you do treat Hideo Azuma differently for no good reason.
>It's as vital and old as real robots
No it isn't. I just told you.
You really don't know anything about otaku culture, do you? I'd like to know what your supposed merits are.
You've told me tons of things, and never provided a smidgeon of evidence for any of them
As I said, subculture speaks louder than wikipedia.
Good thing I have produced primary sources or you have a point
And where has it got you? You don't know anything about Akihabara or Otaku culture.
>I'd like to know what your supposed merits are.
I'm Harada Teruo and I was the chair of the first Comic Market
Actually YOU'RE wrong because I say so. My Japanese friend told me so
You'll just have to trust me.
I think it's fair to say you lost this one
I won this argument with the first post; you've been flailing about ever since
Haha yeah, sure you did. You lost the moment you opened your mouth about Akihabara. I told you I would stomp you down. You're pulling this whole 'Hurr I'm lying like you!' shit because you want to believe I'm lying. You have no idea the people I've met, things I've seen and places I've been. Sure, pass my friends of as imaginary if it makes you feel better, but you know yourself you're just jealous.
If "Okay, every primary and secondary source on otaku history there is says I'm wrong and you're right, but my unnamed friend said different so HAH" counts as stomping someone I wonder what you would call substantiating a single claim over the course of six hours. A nuclear holocaust would be too mild
Don't worry, if/when you ever learn something about Otaku culture you'll understand exactly why I said what I did.
Have you faggots really been arguing about this same shit for like seven hours?
You and your friends should write a book. You'd overturn decades of scholarship
One already did
What's his name?
I'll give you a clue. T-H
If you've already researched this you will get this easily.
You have never met Honda Tohru.
Jealousy levels: 100%