Alright, since there are apparently quite a few fansubbers on /a/ (including myself), let's have a discussion on the current state of fansubbing. I just finished watching some subbed shows from around 2002-2007 and noticed the great disparity of quality and work put into past subtitles compared to what we mostly have today (fonts, edits, karaoke, etc).
As we all know, ever since the advent of failimation and crunchykike, fansubbing suffered a massive blow and decline. However, there are complaints from many people about the subs in question. The complaints are things like the removal of Japanese honorifics from subs like -san, -sama, -senpai, -kouhai, -chan, -kun, etc and sometimes even replacing them with words like mister/miss or master if they aren't (usually) outright removed or the extreme amount of Americanization or "localisation" of subs like not translating the line literally (when it's perfectly understood translated) and instead replacing it with retarded English idioms, phrases, proverbs, and metaphors instead of directly translating the Japanese one and providing a TL note, no TL notes for things like Japanese proverbs or other hard to translate things or TL notes for references or just TL notes in general, the low quality/ugliness of the sub font itself (on hardsubs) oh and of course the controversial removal of subs OPs/EDs + karaoke lyrics.
This has naturally caused a spring up of resubbers who attempt to "fix" the subs to proper tastes.
It is doubtful we'll ever get anything like "people die when they are killed", "it can't be helped", or "keikaku means plan" again, although I suppose some may like that but many do not.
What are /a/'s thoughts of this? Not everyone may agree but that's fine. We subbers need to know what people want. This is important for people to discussed so they know the subs they want from what they feel is the best group for releases they want to watch ignoring the "speedsubs" and going for the best for their archive.
Everything is shit.
>We subbers need to know what people want.
>Atleast OP/ED Translations karaoke is always nice
>No localizing shit
I only want to know why is UTW delaying Nisemonogatari.
I'd like a more literal translation, and I don't mind TL notes.
Honorifics are nice.
Also, most fan-subbers don't do this, but when somebody says a character's name, put it in the order the nips say it. Nothing pisses me off more than when the VA says "Ayanami Rei" but the subtitle reads "Rei Ayanami."
>put it in the order the nips say it
Also color correction is a huge plus.
As long as the translations help you to get the point across, I don't mind being liberal. And I'm neutral to honorifics.
>We subbers need to know what people want.
People don't really know what they want, though. They might scream for "literal translations" when all they actually want is honorifics, an actual fully literal translation would most likely put them off (unless they're one of those unfortunate people who think that a translation should sound unnatural and clunky in order for it to be "true" to the original Japanese).
Also, something I've really noticed lately is that if you do actually give people what they want, they'll instantly start acting very entitled about it. I started adding honorific tracks to Underwater releases this season, and not a day goes by before we get negative comments to the tune of "HOLY SHIT HOW DARE YOU MISS A SINGLE HONORIFIC YOU FUCKS I HAD TO READ SOME GARBAGE LIBERAL SHIT INSTEAD" - while the previous situation was that we had no honorifics at all, and I could have merrily continued with that instead of putting in extra effort to have multiple tracks.
But oh well, that's life for you, I guess.
When a character says "Sempai chotto matte!" how do you translate that? "Senior, wait up"? Or "wait up"? Or "Sempai, wait up"? I haven't seen many subs with sempai translated properly. The relationship between a sempai and kouhai is completely missing in many anime.
I do wish translators would work on expressing those relationships more.
Daiz please, I remember that thread and it was just one guy trolling the fuck out of you. I know it's hard but at this point you should really know how /a/ works.
Daiz, I've wanted to ask: Where did you get your video knowledge from?
>We subbers need to know what people want
People want all sorts of varied and often conflicting things. You shouldn't give a fuck about what people want.
Any translator who can't decide for himself what is right and needs to follow the autistic tantrums of people who don't even know the language shouldn't be translating anything. Grow a fucking backbone.
I like to convert zero raws to avi then rip underwater's subs.
Localisation is shit.
Honorifics should stay
TL notes are better than losing the whole meaning.
As you said OP, we already have enough translators who do that kind of shit, with an alternative you could at least decide for yourself what style you prefer.
Stop for a moment and give this a thought: Which one gives you more information about the relationship between two characters?
A. Some silly little honorific
B. The way they talk to each other, the way they act around each other, the way they actually interact with other, the kind of people the characters themselves are, etc.
After that, take a moment to think about this: If you didn't know anything from B, and only knew that there were characters named A and B and A called B "B-kun", what information with 100% clarity can you actually deduce from this?
That B is a boy? Maybe, but it might also be a tomboy or it just might be used as teasing for a girl, or it might be a grown man being insulted or so on. The point is, a honorific by itself is practically meaningless because it could mean so many things. You need context, and context comes from everything in the B section mentioned earlier. And by the time you have enough information to know what the honorific means, it has pretty much become superfluous - it just repeats what you already know, over and over again.
I watched Mahou Sensou recently and I fucking hate how they translate words like 'dorobou neko' into words like 'homewrecker' instead of the literal or actual word like 'thieving cat' or 'cat burglar'. Crunchyjew needs massive re-subbing to not be unbearable with all its americanisation in the subs. I also very much miss is the TL notes that used to be very common years ago, especially in regards to references or things I'd normally miss but liked to know like in pic related which I very much enjoyed. Even if I understood moon, that doesn't make me an expert on all the references, a person who can catch every little detail or cameo, or a master of Asian board games that require TL notes especially in shows where its a requirement like Gintama, Hikaru no Go, and Saki but the original subbers for shows like Gintama sorta gave up and someone else started subbing them all without all the references which made the show quite a bit less enjoyable when you didn't fully understand the jokes. You'd think it'd be easy to get all the references subbed for crunchyjew and funi considering they have a direct link to the studios who can point them all out easily. Now I know some of you hate TL notes but this is the reason why many groups in the past released two or more of the same episode with and without TL notes among other things like removal of lyrics from OPs/EDs so you picked the release you liked best or a whole release where you can just select the subs you want with or without TL notes on your media player subtitle selection. I enjoyed the funny TL notes of the past as well if tastefully done like 'keikaku means plan' and maybe the chess thing in Code Geass. Also the poor and like shit hard to read or terrible edits and fonts or outright refusal sometimes of translating the signs and posters irks me to no end. The editing of them both is almost always absolutely terrible.
I'm not referring to anything on /a/ with it, actually, but to comments elsewhere. And you can be pretty damn sure that they're completely serious, because leechers ARE damn entitled. They basically act like we'd be some commercial enterprise that they are buying products from (in which case complaining about shit like this would be quite justified), but the reality is that we're just a bunch of nerds in our Reimu boxers doing shit in our free time for no monetary benefit, and they're not paying a dime for the things we're sharing with them.
Also, just to be clear, I'm not saying that our work couldn't be criticized (it very much can, the fact that we're doing it for free is no excuse for bad work), but the entitled attitude is just completely out of place.
As if anyone is going to read a complaint that long.
Daiz, when will you use x265?
the latest version is already stable...
Honorifics actually convey lot more meaning because honorifics carry whole lot of meaning behind them.
If a character A called character B as "B-kun". I'd see that as a sign that either A knows B a bit or B is younger than A or something close. That alone gives enough information to tell us what their relationship is like. Compare that to A calling B as simply "B". What does that tell you? Nothing. Literally nothing. Honorifics gives a lot of information that you can't just ignore unless you're completely new to anime.
I dont want to sound "entitled to higher tiers of translation that might not be feasible" but despite my lack of japanese knowledge I am confused when the subtitles wont include or will include things that have not been clearly said or the opposite. Case in point being names.
Also I dont know how specific it is but I happened to download the the CB BluRay batch
And the english subtitles are for the japanese dialogues so you cant couple them with the english dialogues, I hope this does not happen too often.
trial and error,
and Doom9 forum.
It's called "reverse trolling" anon.
Some sub group is planning on going full localized, and they're using a thread like this to help set themselves up with some support.
Go back to character's haired colored subs for the generic harem shows we get.
It gets confusing at times.
Its just catering to localization fans. Some subbers do that, usually mainstream official subs.
This. And I know there's a large enough proportion who feel the same way to justify non-localized subs.
I really hate it when subbers, fansubbers included, localize everything to America specifically. Calling Junior High "Middle School" is technically incorrect since you can leave after Junior High in Japan and hence it is seen as the end of compulsory education. And the whole "Freshman, Junior, Senior" system makes no sense to countries that don't have Middle School but still speak English. "1st year, 2nd year, 3rd year" make just as much sense and don't confuse non-Americans. As an Australian it took me awhile to realize "Junior" meant "2nd year" and not "1st year" because I didn't know anything about the American education system.
TL;DR localize to the English language, not American culture
>or outright refusal sometimes of translating the signs and posters irks me to no end
Once I downloaded a KlK episode from HS because I did not want to wait and coming from Underwater I could notice all those little things that made it more special, like those nicely edited signs.
Please my post properly, because it seems that you stopped before the last paragraph.
>I'd see that as a sign that either A knows B a bit or B is younger than A or something close.
But what if A was some high-school delinquent who beat up an older nerdy guy and is insultingly calling him -kun because he's such a pansy-ass bitch? Your guesses would be completely wrong, and that's the thing - without context, you can't know for sure what the honorific actually means, you can only make educated guesses.
And by the time you do have enough information to understand the honorific (and you could generally get that information just by seeing the two characters interact or see one of them talk about the other for a while without any honorifics being mentioned during it), the information provided by it has become effectively superfluous, because it's just repeating what you already know.
You can drop out of American High School too dude.
Unrelated question, did you give up on Barristers?
>the whole "Freshman, Junior, Senior" system makes no sense to countries that don't have Middle School
People use those words in middle schools?
The beauty of fansubs is that both localized and unlocalized are catered to. I hope this will stay that way, and there's no good objective reason for it not to, other than the death of all fansubbing.
In addition to the informational value of honorifics, you have to look at the ugly and awkward ways they often end up being localized
>schoolgirls calling each other things like "Miss Tsujimoto", like it's Downton Abbey
>schoolgirls brusquely calling schoolboys by just their surnames
If you're localizing so it sounds like natural English - well, native English speakers wouldn't talk like that so it comes off as more unnatural, if anything. And also it wouldn't sound old-fashioned/formal or brusque to a native Moon, so the original tone is being distorted.
Some people might not care about those things. Some people might think that having Japanese honorifics looks even more disjointed and offputting. However these are all subjective judgements.
I want honorifics back.
Localizations are the worst.
TL notes are ok only when necessary.
I guess I can just download the CB english subs and couple them with these, should be fine.
not that guy but dont you find it a bit "odd" when you hear the character call out someone with their honorific and not see it in the subs?
>ITT: Doki fans
The reason I don't mind if people put honorifics in or not is because by the time you know what they mean, you can hear the voice actors say the honorifics independent of the fansubs.
No. No one uses those words for middle schools, only High School and College.
I actually miss subs like these.
I never noticed most much I missed the colour, lyrics, and translator's notes.
The fact many of the subs literally a decade or more ago were much closer to the original Japanese dialog, of superior quality graphically & aesthetically and perfectly understandable unlike the localized clusterfuck we have these days is sad too.
You'd think it'd get better with all the new superior programs and gadgets plus since it's motherfucking 2014.
But I knew when Dattebayo shut down, it was the beginning of the end and I know people may hate them because of the shows they subbed but groups like them did quick and quality work.
It's very rare to see that these days, especially for shows we actually want to watch who all get picked up by shit like cr.
By the way, if anyone needs a timer/QC/typesetter for re-subbing then I can help.
Then why does it not make sense?
Xythar pls go
Stop translating baka as jerk. I dont know why this started happening a lot recently.
Go suck on some chupa chups while you experience glorious FREEDOM subs. The freshman, junior and senior system wouldn't work for American middle school education anyway since it covers a larger range of years.
>I really hate it when subbers, fansubbers included, localize everything to America specifically.
My stance on this is that English fansubs are for an international audience, and as such localizing to a single country (like America) is not something that should be done. That means avoiding terms like freshman/junior/senior when it comes to education, though I really don't see a problem with using "elementary school", "middle school" and "high school" for the three different tiers of schooling, I'd say that's kinda universally understandable even if doesn't match your education system quite exactly. Compulsory education ends at the end of our middle school equivalent here too (which would even translate more closely to "Junior High"), but I've never though that "middle school" would be somehow an "incorrect translation" because of this.
>A knows B a bit
Bully and victim usually knows each other and in your case, making fun of the victim in that manner requires bit of knowledge on the target.
The fact of the matter is honorifics > no honorifics simply due to the information it gives as the post above said. Its just dumb to see subs with no relational information given and even weird sometimes.
The reason it doesn't make sense to non-Middle school countries is because those countries have High School that goes for 6 years.
That's true, but I was talking about the Japanese equivalent of the American Middle School. What some subbers are calling "Middle School" in Japan is not seen as a transitional period to the same extent as it is in America. Without considering American culture, "Junior High" would be a more correct term.
I like honorifics but since I have ears I don't particularly mind if people leave them out. I can fill in the blanks with what I hear. Although I am against some of the more blatant localizations, some of them already mentioned in this thread, like not putting in TL notes, and just replacing it with an english phrase or something that they "think" has the same spirit. Someone already mentioned how they put "homewrecker" instead of thieving cat, stuff like that.
>subtitles use Monsieur, Madame and Madamoiselle
>"Fuckin Francaboo pandering shit, why would you ever do this, etc"
I really like the point that you can hear what honorifics are being used, making them redundant when put into subs. But I realize not everyone can hear them, hell some people may even be deaf, so I think that leaves a lot of room for all positions, as there's demand for both. I don't think there's one true position.
Do whatever you want. I don't care as long as its within reason.
I've been watching anime too long to care anymore. If I didn't watch something because I didn't like the sub options, I wouldn't have seen so many good shows.
No one uses those terms outside of America for a number of cultural reasons, plus they don't have three separate year groups in high school, but have either 6 or 5 depending on the country. Japan does have 3 year High School, but only Americans would understand localizing their year groups into Freshman, Junior, and Senior. This doesn't mean you can't localize things, for example making "senpai" into "upperclassman" works 99% of the time in school based anime and can be understood in any English speaking country.
Yeah, losing literal translations and TL notes is the biggest thing for me. Almost every episode I watch now, I can easily point out obvious disparities between what's said and what's "translated".
I think the biggest offender for this is the simple yes. When a characters says just "yes", every single sub wants to add fluff to it. Like "Yes sir!" or "affirmative" or other shit that's not what the translation is.
While it's a meaningless change, there are others, some not meaningless.
Having as close a translation as possible, with little notes like that pic for terms that are not common and do not have a proper translation to english, would be preferred.
Fortunately, things aren't really that bad. Sure, they could be better, but at least not everything is Duwang. I love duwang as much as any sane person, but if that was the only option, fuck it, I would learn moon.
On honorifics, I personally think they shouldn't be fully translated. I would rather see "Bob-sama" than "Lord Bob" for example.
I like honorifics in subs but I can live without them. They're easy to hear in the audio.
What bothers me more are 'FUN xD' subs. You know what I'm talking about. Not jokesubs or trollsubs, but legit subs where the team have tried too hard to spice up the dialogue. Less of this please.
Also, as a side question, when subs include strong swearing like 'fuck' or 'asshole', this is usually to represent the strength of 'rough' speech, correct? Just asking, not challenging it.
Fuck you I laughed and it was dumb.
The one thing I hate is the doubling up. Do we really need 2 groups subbing the same shit horriblesubs is? Its fucking good enough.
Someone has to sub the OVAs and the shows that are less popular, but you guys halfass it so you can have 3 groups subbing SnK or whatever.
By the way, America does not have 3 years in High School. We have 4.
9th grade -> Freshamn
10th grade -> Sophomore
11th grade -> Junior
12th grade -> Senior
Lost my cheerios. Ah doff my hat, monsieur.
>schoolgirls calling each other things like "Miss Tsujimoto", like it's Downton Abbey
No-one does this except braindead idiots (I guess everyone who brings this up thinks about the braindead official subs for Azumanga Daioh from back in the day). Just like how translation in general isn't robotic 1:1 word replacement, neither is dealing with honorifics 1:1 word replacement where all -sans get turned into Misters or Misses.
As for referring to each other by surnames, I guess it sound weird to some people but even if they're unfamiliar with anime, it should be reasonably easy to realize and _understand it fully_ as a cultural difference. However, if they saw some weird untranslated Japanese suffixes at the end of names, they could likely still discern it as a cultural difference, but wouldn't actually understand it (without a good amount of explaining). Combined with the superfluous nature of honorifics, can you really justify and impose this kind of knowledge requirements on people?
Or could you possibly realize that ultimately untranslated honorifics are just a form of Japanese flavoring that you happen to particularly like (because it makes you feel like you understand Japanese on a deeper level or whatever) and thus it should be nothing more than a preference?
From what I've seen those that don't want honorifics are generally the ones that don't want it because its "foreign". Those that want it are the ones that want accurate translation.
Generally its either you want a "smoother" subs or "accurate" sub. Smooth subs usually sacrifice many accuracy points for their smoothness however are mostly appealing to the mass. Accurate subs appeal mostly to the fans and autists.
Translate, not localize. Don't mind TL notes.
Softsubbed, don't typeset for xy-vsfilter exclusively only, pay attention that the script works with libass based players.
No americanization (most of /a/ are from outside the US and the anglosphere, we only watch English subs for convenience, because local sub are slow/bad/non-existent)
No heavy encodes, should be able to play it in a low end device.
No flashy karaokes, it's stupid, tacky, gaudy, infantile and distracting.
But that isn't a new term.
>most of /a/ are from outside the US and the anglosphere
>Bully and victim usually knows each other and in your case, making fun of the victim in that manner requires bit of knowledge on the target.
What? No, it really doesn't. He could have just picked some random weak-looking guy from a street, beat him up and demand he hand over his wallet. And yet again you completely missed the actual point by focusing on the minutiae.
>On honorifics, I personally think they shouldn't be fully translated. I would rather see "Bob-sama" than "Lord Bob" for example.
-sama seems to be an edge case, I don't see people complain about it being translated very much.
It does bug me when it's given as 'Lord' in weird contexts though. Like in Tenjo Tenge's subs, Aya calls her crush 'Lord Sochirou' (Sochirou-sama), which is just really weird and unnatural. If you *really* had to localize, couldn't you just drop -sama and make sure her dialogue is always super respectful, to convey the same sense?
That just makes the use of the terms in anime even more forced. Localizing terms that make perfect sense when literally translated wasn't needed, and making those localizations even more culturally restricted was just stupid. And now I hear they're not even a correct localization because it skips a year?
I think even distancing the conversation from this specific example, trying to make anime sound like it is based in America through the subs is 4kids tier translating and should be avoided.
I don't think people really do RCQC anymore.
>No flashy karaokes, it's stupid, tacky, gaudy, infantile and distracting.
There should be an additional sub choice to turn off/on that stuff. I would also mention TL notes, but they don't exist anymore.
>No-one does this except braindead idiots
Daisuki translated Monogatari S2 like that. Case in point, of course.
Everything you watch imposes some level of knowledge requirement on the viewer in order the get the most out of it. I don't think it is asking too much. Can you watch Agents of Shield without knowing anything about the Marvel Universe? Yes you could but you probably wouldn't get as much out of it. Serenity was designed to be a stand alone movie, hence them showing River being tortured, mentioning the Browncoats and the War, and having that whole pan through the ship in the first 15 minutes of the movie, (plus Joss even says they tried to introduce everything to new people) but obviously if you had seen Firefly, you enjoyed it more.
>most of /a/ are from outside the US and the anglosphere, we only watch English subs for convenience, because local sub are slow/bad/non-existent
>most of /a/ are from outside the US and the anglosphere
No dude. I'll grant that /a/ is not entirely American, but it is sure as shit a majority.
I just used -sama as an example. All honorifics, to my knowledge, are not a rigid definition to just one word, so it's hard and confusing to always translate them. Leaving them alone like my preference is far simpler, and makes sense.
Besides, if someone is watching something and doesn't know what -san or -sama mean, I really don't give a fuck.
Also, really? Tenjou Tenge as your reference? Thanks for reminding me that it'll never be fully animated.
It's funny, I used to be all for TL notes, 'truer' literal translations, etc. Then I learned moon.
You know, we really should make a list of the quality sub groups and releases along with the shit groups and releases of the past and present to know which should be added to our libraries and archives or avoided.
Oh and GG and Coalguys piss me off with those shitty unfunny troll subs they pull sometimes. If you want to troll, do it in a motherfucking translation notes that doesn't fuck with the actual subs. I'm fine with the interesting funny styled subs like what we got with Girls und Panzer though. Danke for the that.
Took me a while.
Problem is you, anon.
no commie tier liberal shit
use tl notes if necessary for japanese only jokes
dont put your own spin on the script
looking at you commie again
Too many disagreements in opinion, just use AB.
> We subbers need to know what people want.
mostly good subs with the exact/close traduction.
i would also like to use this ocasion to thank all the fansub teams here because i'm a worthless piece of trash that wont loose time to say thanks for the work they on do on rheir own websites.
well, it's not like they ask for thanks everytime but i still feel bad for not expriming my gratitude
At the very least, anime has a large English speaking following outside of the US, so English translations should consider the fact we haven't lived in America before. Instead of trying to localize, try and consider what a Japanese person knowing perfect English would say. A good example of this is the fact that the Aniplex subs for Nisekoi translated something that could have easily been called "a good university" or "a good college" if you really wanted to keep some Americanism as "an Ivy League university" which is just stupid translating because that is a reasonably specific term for a type of American university.
I can't stand Translators notes. It might be alright in something like a live action movie but in animation you need to be watching the animation on screen. I think it's almost disrespectful to creators to blatantly impose language lessons on top of something. And all it really seeks to do is appease people who think that anime needs to remind people how very Japanese it is. In the worst cases it leads to lazy translation where you get subtitles saying things like "goushijin-sama" instead of "Master"
Honourifics are debatable. On one hand it';s great for people new to Japanese who need to understand how they work. But to someone who's learned them and can detect them it becomes annoying and invasive. It would be like watching Lord of the Rings and instead of just having subtitles for Elvish and Black Tongue they include translator notes about how JRR Tokein modified languages to get them.
Although I must confess I do agree a lot with that video posted a few years back by Otaking asking for subbers to be more professional. I prefer it when translators take the literal definition of translation and basically try and make it flow seemlessly in another language, but that can take a bit of artistic flair which not everyone has.
And I personally prefer boring easy to read fonts to the colourful artsy fonts used most of the time.
Also Karaoke is stupid.
I don't disagree with that. Universal English > Americanization(ivy league/etc).
If one was to do a series like Joshiraku, would you prefer the jokes be translated literally, or would you have stayed with the localized version?
tl notes are fine, but they should always be saved for the end like how SZS subs (I forget by whom) were handled.
Commie please never die.
>No-one does this except braindead idiots
I've seen it from both CR and Funi. Localizing fansub groups tend to go with a plain surname.
>As for referring to each other by surnames, I guess it sound weird to some people but even if they're unfamiliar with anime, it should be reasonably easy to realize and _understand it fully_ as a cultural difference.
You mean just like honorifics? Oh wait -
>However, if they saw some weird untranslated Japanese suffixes at the end of names, they could likely still discern it as a cultural difference, but wouldn't actually understand it (without a good amount of explaining). Combined with the superfluous nature of honorifics, can you really justify and impose this kind of knowledge requirements on people?
Come on. You're only talking about the most casual, new or clueless fans here.
This goes double in the internet age where, for people who really can't work it out, all the information they need is a few mouse clicks away.
No, I don't think you've drawn a strong distinction here at all, and as I said, it's a subjective judgement over which is more offputting.
>Or could you possibly realize that ultimately untranslated honorifics are just a form of Japanese flavoring that you happen to particularly like (because it makes you feel like you understand Japanese on a deeper level or whatever) and thus it should be nothing more than a preference?
As I said in the post you quoted, it's a subjective judgement, so I do indeed realize that it's a preference.
>Everything you watch imposes some level of knowledge requirement on the viewer in order the get the most out of it.
>Agents of Shield
That's a completely different kind of "knowledge requirement", though. You're talking about something taking place in existing entertainment universes, and knowing more about them would just require consuming more entertainment. With stuff like Japanese honorifics, you would have to learn an arbitrary linguistic thing from the source language of the work, while consuming a translation of said work. And since it's a translation, by definition the consumer shouldn't have to know anything about the source language to be able to consume it.
Make no mistake: untranslated honorifics is basically all about pandering to people who want to feel like they understand Japanese (and who actually don't, otherwise they wouldn't need English subs).
Also, pandering in itself isn't necessarily bad. The thing I find annoying is just the people who believe it's about something more, like honorifics somehow being "untranslatable" or such, and arguing that you just HAVE to leave them untranslated or you're not being "accurate" and so on and so forth.
>"An Ivy League university"
>TL Note: An Ivy League university is...
There, everyone's happy.
>It's funny, I used to be all for TL notes, 'truer' literal translations, etc. Then I learned moon.
Kinda like picture related?
Or "a good university" (TL Note: no TL Note needed here)
That's a bit different when you consider French and English speaking people have had centuries of interaction (and English has actually been shaped by French) whereas Japan only opened up to the world for a bit in the 1600's, closed it's doors, and then had them forced open 200 years later by America. Add to that that the Anglo nations of the world fought quite viciously with Japan for a number of years and there's not a keen base of people curious to learn Japanese in the English speaking world.
>untranslated honorifics is basically all about pandering to people who want to feel like they understand Japanese
I'm sorry, are we talking about making subtitles for entire cultures or just for fans of anime?
My stance is that you'll never satisfy everyone so just give everyone a tutorial in editing subtitles.
I don't know why they don't just include a text file with DLs or have a link to their website for that though. When I'm watching animation I want to pay attention to the fine details, not have my eyes cut off from the upper half the screen slightly because I have to dart my view upwards to read about how a specific cultural thing shouldn't be translated to English to appeal to Japanophiles.
And pardon the term Japanophile since it is a bit harsh. There's absolutely nothing wrong with liking japanese culture, but translator notes just feel kind of clique-ish and elitist. It's just trying to seem smart and informed when really it comes across as lazy and slightly weaboo-ish
>People on /a/ actually defend honorifics
I personally don't really care what the subs say since I don't really need them anyway, but leaving the honorifics in is a sign of poor translation. Honorifics don't exist in English, and if you can't satisfactorily show the relationship between two characters through dialog, you've failed as a translator. I don't mind if the story is explicitly set in Japan and they only leave in the "-san," "-kun" and "-chan", but I draw the line when subbers leave in shit like "Sakura-nee-tan." That shit is just completely unnecessary and looks fucking retarded in an English script.
Heh, not exact agreement but yeah, basically.
Also, here's some relevant reading for every single person in this thread:
If you have any interest in the subject of translation (and you do if you're arguing about stuff like the translation of honorifics), you should read this whole thing.
The linked sections from these are also worth reading on top of that:
What about things like Gintama where there are explicit pop culture references or puns?
>uh-oh, they're putting up a good argument
>better go ad-hominem!
classy as ever, Daiz
I wish 8th did more, I really enjoyed his writing.
That guy knows his shit. Don't leave home without it.
There's two type of anime fan sub watchers.
Casuals and long time fans/hardcore.
Casuals dont care about fansub quality or type. Hardcores do. Hardcores see two alternatives, catering to casuals (who don't give a fuck) or catering to hardcore(who do give a fuck). Remember your roots, thats the only way to good anything.
Then you just get over it. Do you think Japan airs The Simpsons with translation notes for all their references to American culture? If you watch something with cultural jokes you need to understand the culture. I think actually not understanding the joke might be better than a translator giving a free handout since it might make the user actually engage in research and learn a much greater breadth of knowledge than a quick cultural gimme.
If in doubt, make two tracks, one localized and one not. FFF have done it occasionally. Mazui did it for their K-On S1 release.
It can't be more than 10 mins extra work.
Though if you really have to choose one, I'd sooner go with just the weeb track
Where's the route for editing CR subs?
Relationship between co-workers (senior/junior), students, old people/young people don't exist in western culture. The Japanese(asian) honorifics are unique in this case because they don't exist outside of asian culture in general. Where's the relationship between an older classmate taking care of younger classmate in any western country? Or younger classmate looking up to older classmate for support?
>It can't be more than 10 mins extra work.
I'm too lazy to find a smug anime girl. Pretend I'm posting one.
>suggesting that anime fans have any interest beyond a quick skim viewing so they can shitpost about it on the episode release thread here on /a/
All that delusion.
I like what Daiz is doing with the separate honorific track with a different language id so I can set it as the default. Some groups have done similar, but I didn't always remember to switch it.
As for honorifics, I like them but don't mind their exclusion that much. I just hate what replaces them in some cases. "Sissy" makes my skin crawl.
Gintama shouldn't have TL notes, or more accurately, reference notes at all.
Reference notes in the middle of an episode are the dumbest shit ever. The point of references is that you either get it and have fun with the fact that you got it, or you don't get it and it flies over your head. A reference joke will ruin the "ha, I got that" factor for people who would have gotten the reference and spoils the reference for people who wouldn't have gotten it. It's pretty much a lose-lose situation for viewers.
I think the first five seconds of this vid summarizes how the whole honorific and translator note thing comes across as.
>just watching the Madoka movies
>Everything seems fine to me but I get to that scene where Kyoko saves Sayaka and she goes full suffering mode
<For Pete's sake!>
i'm not okay with this
If all you're doing is going through the text removing honorifics and changing 'Ramen' to 'Noodles', I can't see how that would break a quarter of an hour.
Sports and clubs?
I'm a typesetter and am sad that no one really mentioned them.
What do I spend my hours fax-ing and mochaing for?
Anon, he knows all
about the great nippon, ah!
the west is boring
The dumbest shit I've seen was a manga that was otherwise fine, except the didn't translate 'ne'.
So you'd have shit like
>Whew, sure is hard working out in the sun, ne?
Blog post or PDF for those who care.
So the problem with fansubs today is that we have 3 choices:
>15 year old weebs
>meme spouting children
Overall I agree, except for when they're actually translating 2ch/2chan memes.
For example, 俺の嫁 -> mai waifu is perfectly fine by me.
I really like it when in the title sequence the subs look like they're from the studio themselves. Its looks really professional.
You are the edge that fansubs have over Crunchyshit. Stay strong, O bastion of virtuous ad high quality copyright infringement.
>>just watching the Madoka movies
R1 is not fansubbing.
That's not actually a "localized vs localized" difference, though. It's just "no honorifics vs honorifics (and maybe some odd word on top of that)". Localization is actually an inherent part of translation, as you need to localize from the language culture (which is separate from country culture) of the source language to the language culture of the target language. The whole localization factor of the subtitles doesn't hang on some suffixes that are just a small essentially arbitrarily chosen part of keigo (the whole honorful speaking system) in Japanese.
I think the OP was letting on something more complex than that. Additionally, translating honourifics doesn't mean you simply remove them all.
Wow, no. Try harder CR.
I like typesetting. It makes the show just that much more enjoyable, so thank you for your work. It's just that when typesetters get lazy or the typesetting gets so ridiculous that the show is delayed forever is fucking annoying.
>Relationship between co-workers (senior/junior), students, old people/young people don't exist in western culture.
I don't even know where to begin with how retarded you sound. Have you ever heard of things like Apprenticeship and Mentor programs? Just because they have a different approach, does not mean it doesn't exist. Moreover, why do you need a hyphenated attachment to tell you these things that you apparently already know so much about? I'm also guessing that you've never studied literature either, or else you'd know about things like "tone" and "style" which can help show relations like that between characters.
Not /a/ relatedbut you still ma nigga
>For Pete's sake
This just doesn't feel right to me at all.
At the least, there is definitely a senior/junior relationships in work environments. I've been on both sides.
I love you, you're the reason I started working on Aegisub to fix and make my own subs.
Also, you're the only reason to download Commie.
Call it whatever you like, it's just another label. Whatever labels you put on either style, it suits the fans. Look at FFF's Love Lab for a good example.
What about "Geez", that's the usual go to.
Name active groups that don't fit into those 3.
Take heart: No one is talking about typesetting because no one hates typesetting. The last thing you want is /a/ talking about you.
I've only ever delayed Ribbon-chan. And I don't think anyone cared about that.
Why? i think it conveys the mood without getting vulgar.
Indeed. It's a religious reference (St Peter). Likewise Jesus, God/Oh my God, etc.
>TVN- I don't know what the fuck I'm doing
By the way, I'm completely serious about reading the stuff I linked in >>101767958. Before arguing more about honorifics and such, read them. Seriously.
By the way, here's an example of some REAL Literal Translation(tm). Do you really want your translations to be like this? Or maybe you'd rather have smooth and natural English, maybe with those untranslated honorifics left in too because you like them?
>couldn't even name one group
UTW, FFF, Underwater, Vivid, Watashi, EveTaku
Game, set and match.
Thank you CMS, I cared.
Apprenticeship and Mentors are very specific things associated with specific instances. Not every work has apprenticeship and mentor relationship. Only works that require specialization learning has that relationship and even that its mostly a professional title. And its not a general phenomena either. Where as sempai-kohai are general phenomena in school/work environment in East-Asia.
I'm not CMS. They never did S1.
I'm why Evetaku never finished S1.
Those are sexy.
>trying to bake it forcefully
I work in Software Development and we use a mentor system for the first 6 months of a new hire.
I said active.
More like this please, that's fucking brilliant. That's done as a joke, right? Right?
I'd rather have Japanese given names translated.
Those names mean something in modern Japanese and so have a meaning to Japanese speakers, one that is lost to non-Japanese speakers. English-speaking viewers aren't getting the full experience if subs don't translate them.
Reading these are fun because it's like a puzzle. What Japanese led to this translation?
I think you are creating a straw man though. Literal vs liberal is a sliding scale, it's not like we need to choose between your pic and jelly doughnuts/rub a dub dub. You are trying to take a reasonable request (don't put memes or convert cultural references) and pretend it is something else (convert Japanese to English using the words and not the meaning).
Fuck it, I'll just dump these all because it's such a beautiful trainwreck.
(I'd never want to have translations like these on something that I'd actually want to read/watch, though.)
These are 100% serious.
What is best option to translate 2ch meme?
Most likely. It looks like even sfx inside the bubble are translated.
I am more interested in the encoding workflow.
How does it usually work? You guys get the transport stream and then what? Avisynth? MeGUI? FFmpeg? What settings do you usually use? Do you have remotely good hardware to do it? How long does it take to encode a single episode?
So "keikaku" doesn't mean plan!?
Great, you're giving him more ideas. Now the subs will sound like everyone is a Native American.
>Literal vs liberal is a sliding scale
That's the point I'm trying to make, actually. People think literal/liberal is a black and white thing, and the kind of thing they think they want by literal is on this level, when in reality they'd really be much more satisfied with a liberal translation, possibly with some untranslated Japanese left in as pandering. See the #LS link I posted in >>101767958
They'll sound alcoholic?
Pick one out of a hat and use that one.
Literally the first thing they tell you the first day of any job I've ever been to is to introduce you to someone you can ask questions if you have problems. I don't know why you're so adamant to insist that because we don't have magical super secret awesome linguistic honorifics that it's so different. Sure there's not a cultural enforcement and expectations that a junior has to abide by a senior's command, but in general it's very much a given concept in any workplace. Basically in Asian culture you're forbidden from speaking out against anyone older than you, while the western world permits it if you're more knowledgable.
2ch/4ch memes intermingle sometimes. Also some of the memes are well known here.
Hey Daiz. I really enjoyed your subs for KLK 17. I know a lot of people will disagree, but "have fun storming the castle" was a great line to put in for Mako.
Ah, I remember CMS being slow as fuck for the second season, I thought you meant that. Now that I see, yeah, you haven't finished S1 (I used Choco at first and finished it with m.3.3.w's batch), what happened?
Goddamn it /a/, stop misusing this word.
>I said active.
If "doing four shows at this very moment" doesn't fit your definition of "active" then I don't know what would.
I'll just leave this here:
Haha, yeah OK bro. Confirmed for troll.
The main issue? It's not a very good translation any longer since no one hardly anyone still uses that phrase. If it was intentionally archaic, that would be a different story but I'm pretty sure it was used in common speech terms.
It's blatantly obvious that this isn't even on the level of literal translations since they leave some things entirely untranslated. "Hora, ne."
Naw man. I am m.3.3.w. I did everything for their R-C. And finished their koichoco, but that hasn't been released.
It was the first complete show I ever TS'd.
Daiz, please, you reposted these pictures a lot of times.
Doesn't really feel tonally right. Hearing a young girl say "For Pete's sake" over something like "geez" doesn't make much sense.
What should I call them then, goddamn it. Those-guys-with-the-headdresses-who-have-descriptive-names.
I bet that "ne" was one of those catchy things a character sometimes says like, -desu or -kana, -ttebayo is too fucking much though
i'd probably go with "c'mon" but I can see the trouble that expressions like that give to translators in general, i just think using a long phrase like that doesn't fit
>"G<Goki>"-"Goki" as in "gokiburi" as in "cockroach".
Cherry Tree Root is adorable, isn't she?
We call them First Nations in Canada.
>Have fun storming the stadium!
That was actually in the original Aniplex script already.
The simulcast translation for KLK is really rather schizophrenic. One moment they're leaving shit completely untranslated for no reason, and the next moment they have an amazing liberal/localized translation for something, like "Naturals Election". Incidentally, people who complain that we're translating things at Underwater never complain about similar things that Aniplex translated on their own already.
It's a gift that keeps on giving!
I dunno... Redskins? That too racist for you? Too bad. I won't even get into arguments about the prehistoric settlement of the Americas, but "Native" American is a misnomer because ANYONE born on the soil of the Americas is a "Native" American.
> I am m.3.3.w
Have you stopped hardsubbing yet?
>always autistic about many things
>never gave half a shit about subs
I honestly don't understand why its such a big deal. Its not like it's a VN or manga, you can actually fucking hear the words that they are saying. I have made absolutely no attempts to study moon, but what dissonances I do manage to see don't faze me at all because I know the meaning of the actual word and thus can fully grasp the nuances behind the "bad" translation.
I can see how translators making perceived "errors" such as removing honorifics would ruffle a few rumps, but at the end of the day, it doesn't affect your actual comprehension of what is being said at all, unless you're deaf. The only shit that you should get up-in-arms about is adding memes or shit like "eotens", which, while again, may not affect your comprehension; is fucking annoying.
I used to believe translations should be as literal as possible without making it sound too stiff and weird.
But over the years my stance on this has changed and in fact I think I like much more the way things are today, as described in OP.
Maybe it was just me getting older, but maybe it's because I've come to realize that 99% of the dialog in anime is almost trivial stuff and not really important.
Anime is an audiovisual medium, and in that regard I think having subs with a better flow at the expense of accuracy makes for a better experience overall.
Native American is the official term used by the United States government. You can have your opinion but you aren't going to get rid of the term by winning an internet argument.
>People think literal/liberal is a black and white thing
I really don't think they do.
When people complain about 'liberal', it's not "means the same, but in different words". It's "means something different, but can be fitten into the conversation here".
Like when CR in Chuu2 Ren ep 1 translated "So desu ne" (said by itself as one sentence) as "but it's hard", when they could just as easily gone with "Tell me about it" or "I know right" or something similar.
These translation aren't literal translation. Its an inexperienced translator making silly mistakes.
Then your problem isn't /a/ misusing "Native American", it's the majority of the country. Without even arguing about whether you're right or not, is this really the place to have this battle?
>By the way, I'm completely serious about reading the stuff I linked in >>101767958. Before arguing more about honorifics and such, read them. Seriously.
>Do not drop a series halfway: Don’t start what you won’t finish.
Well thank you for ridiculizing me and thanks for your work. Shorts like Ribbon-chan need great typesetting, I wish a not-shit group picks up Wooser 2.
Shh, stop spoiling Daiz's straw man.
The people behind these consciously decided to translate like this.
They're also the ones who came up with picture related.
I just want to watch chinese cartoons on my toaster.
By that definition everyone in England is interchangeable between being "Native Danish", "Native French" or "Native German"
>linking from another cartel member
>expecting it to support your point
>expecting anyone to care what he has to say
Business majors with shit taste, ne?
dear god there is so much autism in that picture you'd have to put a biohazard warning on every computer where that is saved
Reencoding groups exist for you, no need to make everything lowest denominator.
Just keep things the way they are. Only more of it. Don't go changing things that don't need changing. The anime demographics haven't really changed so you don't need to either.
>ANYONE born on the soil of the Americas is a "Native" American.
"Native" used in that context clearly means people that were in North America before the Europeans came.
Protip: Language is not something to be treated (fully) as a set of static symbols and rules.
Their guidelines seems fairly logical. I don't see too much issue with it. I, ofcourse, didn't read all the other parts of that image.
>anime demographics haven't changed
Do you seriously think that?
Localizing subs is retarded, people who watch fansubbed anime obviously don't need it Americanized anyway.
That's not me. That's everyone else that's stuck in 2007. I'm the guy that was brought on and kept because I was the only softsub guy.
> People think literal/liberal is a black and white thing
No they don't you fucking retard.
>thread full of people who want honorifics
>Daiz telling them all their taste is wrong
>Daiz expecting them to change their minds
Daiz is making all sorts of strawman in this thread. I think he's drunk.
Not drunk, just stupid with a case of USI.
Isn't it like 4 AM where he lives?
Serious question. If no honorifics are used, how are you going to translate when two characters go from calling each other with -san to -chan?
>From Ren to Renny
Or -san to -kun to no honorifics.
Die please. Even as a joke.
>From Jon to Johnny
Depends on the context.
Sometimes situations might be hard to deal with, but having a hard time 1% of the time with something is not a reason to leave shit untranslated 100% of the time.
And if you applied the "sometimes X might be hard to translate" to everything, you might as well leave the subs untranslated because who knows when they might make some completely untranslatable pun out of it.
>From Bill to Billy
There's nothing particular about those cases, Daiz already made the case against honorifics in this thread.
Bullshit. I tried watching the 3rd(?) season of zetsubosensei with it's questionable/spotty translation. Of course it didn't have any TL notes, and it was not funny at all. whoever did season 1 of that show had notes to the more obscure stuff and it makes the jokes at least understandable, both that joke and the ones coming after it.
How are honorifics dealt with in professional translation outside of the world of anime?
>From Son to Sonny
Professional movie subs seemed to leave them out.
>honorifics is bad because its not translated
>therefore no honorifics and no translation is better
I don't see this jump in reasoning.
No he didn't. He presented some shitty conjectures
Hadena subs, is that you?
Anything that is a "new term" that we would not have known like goku uniform, but not the word plan should be left that way. Otherwise, just try to get the best combination of keeping the meaning and looking good in english.
>But what if A was some high-school delinquent who beat up an older nerdy guy and is insultingly calling him -kun
I can't ever recall a real example like this. If you wanted to insult someone "-kun" is not what you'd go with unless you were familiar with the person in some way like a friend, a team mascot, a politician, etc. You aren't the underwater translator right daiz?
Don't tell me you guys are actually serious? The localization of name + nickname is just horrible.
>The relationship between a sempai and kouhai is completely missing in many anime.
Not really. You can tell what kind of relationships they have by their expressions, actions and such.
Married couple may call each other with honorifics and not-so-close friends may call each other by first names.
Honorifics are nothing important.
>telling them all their taste is wrong
I'm not saying their taste is wrong. If I thought it was somehow inherently wrong, I wouldn't be offering honorifics tracks with my releases (and QCing them with the honorific tracks - which I do to make sure we didn't miss any).
I'm just arguing against poor justifications that fail to understand what translation is actually about. Of course, it pretty much never makes anyone change their mind, but for some reason I still try every now and then. Oh well.
This shit is pointless and time-consuming. Please God no.
Here's the rule of thumb: Is it READABLE? If yes, good enough for me.
Keep them in. "Miss", "Mister", "Master", etc. are too vague, and in the case of "master", pretty much nonexistent. Honorifics have too many relationship implications to attempt to localize, and the removal or replacing of them can fuck up later dialog. For example, the original localization of the Love Hina manga where Keitaro was on a first name basis with Naru, while it took near the end of the series for him to use her first name, and the original Azumanga Daioh English printings, which had Chiyo use honorifics for everyone, where she only used "-chan" for Tomo, implying significantly less respect for her among other peers.
>retarded English idioms, phrases, proverbs, and metaphors
Those make me want to gouge my fucking eyes out. Shit like "u mad" and echoing bad translations for "comedy" and other meme garbage is 9gag-tier, and replacing popular internet phrases in Japan with something western that "best matches" the dialog is lazy and letting translators think that it's a green light to be a bad translator due to the reputation of TL notes, which is only shitty because of earlier subbing groups who unironically put in shit like "keikaku means plan" or Japanese words into the subtitle track in an effort to try to (badly) impress others.
Translation notes are OKAY if you're using them for shit that demands explanation (meaning NOT: Food, generic greetings/sayings, etc.). Just be sure not to use a TL note if the reference is elaborated upon in the dialog of the show (ie. Hozuki no Reitetsu episode 04 where they visit the Rabbit from the Japanese story of "The Farmer and the Badger", where they tell the story). Having TL notes in the subtitles is fine, and having them in a .pdf file is also acceptable. If you are reluctant to have them, have a second subtitle track containing the translator notes.
People keep pointing at karaoke but I don't think karoke normally holds up releases these days anyway right? If so, it's more or less a non-issue and reliant on fansubber preferences. I skip most op/eds though so I don't care if it's missing or added.
You can also understand anime by learning japanese. That's not the issue here. The body language/atmosphere/actions also aren't the issue here. Its the fansub translation we're talking about.
>If you wanted to insult someone "-kun" is not what you'd go with unless you were familiar with the person in some way like a friend, a team mascot, a politician, etc.
But -kun would very much be applicable in that situation. It'd be belittling, since one general use of "-kun" is for referring to people younger than you. Similar to how an older guy beating up a younger guy could mockingly call the young dude "aniki".
Maybe you just don't know your beloved honorifics as well as you think after all?
>replacing popular internet phrases in Japan with something western that "best matches" the dialog is lazy
Why? There are very good equivalents a lot of the time. I remember people raging in one example where リア充 was translated as "normalfag", seemed like a pretty good fit to me.
God damn it made me reply.
But that translation is quite fine. Especially when both slang are congruent in many context. Its the actual closest word that we is near accurate and known.
Then why do it at all? Let people watch CR who get paid to sub just as good as fansubbers and just die already.
So if it's only a matter of time, then why not start now?
>just as good as fansubbers
But they're not, and if legal options won't offer the level of quality I desire, then the only option left is to do it yourself.
>Just as good
I disagree with the assertion that there is no place for honorifics in certain anime ever, but come on man, you don't have to go that far.
Because Official subs tend to suck.
I'm not even sure how they got to this translation.
If that's the case, then why not work for them? You get paid, you give people the quality you want to give them and you're legal. You seem to know enough to fix CR since they're not as good as "fansubbers".
>working with chink money grubbers
It can be used to mock but it sounds very odd coming from a delinquent that would typically have tough guy mannerisms if he didn't know the person beforehand when there are other alternatives that would demean their targets better.
Your point on honorifics being context sensitive stands(and imo supports leaving them alone unless the setting works against it) but it is your example that I find odd.
I've translated plenty of series across different genres and -kun is always used by the user to imply to the target that they are familiar with the user in some way whether that is true or not but your clarification of the example in >>101767010 doesn't make sense of the usage. It doesn't fit the profile for him to take a personal tone with his victims if all he was after was the money. Perhaps if he was a psycho that got off from torturing people yes but the wallet shakedown makes it odd.
If your intent was to make the delinquent seem especially psycho then it works against what you said in >>101766089 because it's not superfluous information but further characterization of the delinquent. There's going to be differences between which terms he uses to demean his targets so leaving out honorifics altogether and substituting them for workable but differently nuanced terms is just half assed work.
>If that's the case, then why not work for them?
If only things were that simple...
But there's a lot of things that I'd like to see legally that just sadly aren't very feasible in today's environment (things like DRM-free downloads and no fucking region locking). Even if we ignored these glaring issues, there's also the fact that CR has no real desire to improve their quality - they effectively have a monopoly on legal anime streaming, so they have zero incentive to actually improve their quality. Why do it when you're the only (legal) option and will get the dosh anyway? This is also why I'd like all digital licensing to be non-exclusive (which I see as working by focusing heavily on revenue sharing) so every legal entity could have every show - that way the competition wouldn't be about quite anti-consumer "who has what shows / the most shows", no, we'd have actual pro-consumer "who has the best quality and service" competition.
How would you handle an instance of "Megane-kun"?
In what context? Mocking, respect, admiration, playful?