/a/, I'm really conflicted about Eva's TV ending.
I sort of like it as it gives a very uplifting tone and incites morale, but the whole point is that in the TV ending he accepted Instrumentality. So all that happiness and all the stuff his peers were saying in his head was blather and designed to convince him give in to the false/man made "happiness" that is Instrumentality. After that they congratulate him for doing so as a whole.
Ergo, you get a happy ending entirely based on delusions and you can't take it to heart to actually take a life lesson from the show gracefully to better yourself as a person.
Because you sure as fuck don't want to take any life lessons from EoE. Even if he did do the right thing.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of that. I'm trying to take something out of Eva.
EoE is meant to be a different view on the TV ending, and Shinji is said to have rejected Instrumentality in both timelines. I'd say it was ambiguous at the very least.
I like the TV ending much better than EoE, but the movie is complementary. He stops being a coward and stops running away.
dude how beta can you get.
What the fuck are you even talking about.
OP I am curious to hear your interpretation of the life lesson found in EoE. I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't know what even the fuck. I thought the message in the TV ending was valid. The understanding that we all have our own subjective experience that is entirely up to us to make of it what we will. How is that a delusion?
The TV ending implies that he accepted instrumentality, and EoE just blatantly rejects it.
It's not certain that instrumentality DID happen in TV though.
>he accepted Instrumentality
No he didn't.
>The TV ending implies that he accepted instrumentality
That's what I got, but certainly not what a lot of other people suggest and certainly not what somewhat 'official' descriptions give subsequent to the release of EoE.
OP here, it certainly seems like it. The whole sequence of a false world, and everyone congratulating him as "a whole" point to that, as well as a glass breaking.
What I'm trying to get at though, Is instrumentality a false happiness? A kind of decision of well, you can either have the truth (EoE) or man-made manufactured happiness that relies on changing the world around you and not yourself (like he did in EoE)
I thought the delusions were the world of the series, and instrumentality was him breaking away from them.
Instrumentality is the next stage of human evolution so by Shinji rejecting it and not being 'beta' what does that say?
EoE and TV are the same ending. TV is just what's going on in his head, and EoE is what's going on in the outside world.
as said here
He finally realizes he has to change himself and not rely on either
A.) Changing others or understanding them (that's touched on multiple times during the series.)
or B.) Having everyone else do everything for you, or the whole concept of Instrumentality.
>but the whole point is that in the TV ending he accepted Instrumentality.
a title card explicitly state instrumentality is happening in the TV ending
Instrumentality is basically that all souls exist as a single one, basically "Heaven".
If all humanity goes to said "Heaven" everyone lives forever on a, single for each individual, happy world.
Now back on track with happening or not, it's possible due to Gendo and Yui being together and congratulating him (Both wanted it to happen), but at the same time it's not certain because of people that Shinji didn't want in his world (Akatsuki and others) in it.
That's really the vital question posed by EoE and the TV ending. Is being wondertang'd and coexisting in a pile of goo, happiness? What is your answer to that? Shinji rejected it, in the hope of something real despite the ability to be hurt.
I think it's quite backwards. He chose to hurt people in TV by letting instrumentality(All theory though) kill everyone in the current world and make a new one, and chose not to bother with others in EoE, hence why he stops instrumentality half-way in.
The way you put it, it makes it seem that each person would live in their own fantastic world.
The main message was that human interaction is what makes living worthwhile however, so would each person be living in a world with fake people or no people at all in your view?
What actually means to be with people? Anno was on a isolated-kid line of thought when he made TV ending, I'm assuming that being on a world where there are people that are exactly as you want them to be is the same as no people at all.
Look at it as a person who buys everything in life, it is easier to understand that way, except it's all given to you for free. Your own little world.
Raises a really good point I hadn't thought of.
Basically, if Shinji did really reject instrumentality in the TV ending. I can be happy knowing that.
If one can see rejecting instrumentality as "the truth", both of yourself and the world around you, you can tell why I'm pissed here. There's a happy ending where you reject truth and a sad/insane ending where you embrace truth.
AMERICA WILL NEVER FALL TO COMMUNIST INVASION
If people were exactly as you want and you weren't satisfied, you could simply make them to act more like real people.
The way I see it, Anno wanted us to see instrumentality as a bad thing and to drive that point home, Shinji rejects it.
They just didn't have the budget to show instrumentality happening or not happening so they skipped to the key message which is the same in both.
That's for each and everyone to make. Shinji was a person with a really set mindset that didn't require much processing or thinking, he would be happy on a world where people just congratulated him when he did the exact stuff people wanted him to.
Probably, in Gendo's own little world, he is alone with Yui walking on a park with no one else around still on his 20s.
>So all that happiness and all the stuff his peers were saying in his head was blather and designed to convince him give in to the false/man made "happiness" that is Instrumentality.
You could say the same thing about any kind of happiness derived from human love or companionship
Just be happy for Shinji, even if he is orange juice.
Instrumentality doesn't sound too bad by the sounds of that.
Freaking Shinji had to ruin it for everybody.
So, why is instrumentality bad again?
Actually Shinji just gives people the chance to reject it, he doesn't stop instrumentality.
You are basically destroying humanity and the world though.
What is the point of living if everything is just given to you though?
Part of life is overcoming obstacles and receiving what we desire from our triumphs.
Is there any point in life if everything just bends to your will?
Nothing is destroyed. Everyone lives happily together as tang.
>implying thats a bad thing
Why does that matter when you'll be living the perfect life you've always wanted?
im neet, instrumentality sounds great
Because we can't hurt each other. Ironically. It's not human interaction if we can't do that.
Is The World Even Real If There Are No People To Bite It?
By doing that, you just close yourself on a shell of what you assume is happiness, without giving into the troubles and problems of a real life.
Hell i'd choose instrumentality, but it's a very hard question to pose upon a 14 year old.
People keep making the comparison between having others be the way you want and accepting people as they are. My way of thinking is that what we want is not some concrete thing. The way people truly are can become what we want. We think the way we think because of everything that has happened to us. Shinji's way of thinking was that of a horribly confused child. He saw some shit man. His simplistic way of thinking about others, their motives and true perceptions was simplistic. I was left with the impression that he carried his confusion with him to the end in EoE, whereas in the TV ending he finally got his head around his own confusion.
>There are still people that don't understand Evangelion
Jesus fuck you niggas are dumb.
It's not completely perfect.
In Shinji's world, he goes to school and has friends, but Asuka still beats him, he probably isn't the smartest kid in class.
You're just basically living a life where not everything is given to you, but nothing will ever be taken away.
>Instrumentality doesn't sound too bad by the sounds of that.
BUT ITS NOT HEALTHY!
So basically /a/.
And that's why I think Shinji remains one of the most impressive characters I've come across.
Do you like problems? Do you like real life?
Can you be happy if you are never sad?
Without naruto threads.
Shinji looked happy in his world.
blogshit if you ask me that but, I've been sad for most of my life, and the time I have the most fun is watching anime, reading manga and discussing evangelion on /a/. On 4 years I've never grown old of it and will possibly keep doing it my whole life. But I also know what it is to be heartbroken, get fired and don't make it to a university.
You can't be free forever.
You had to bring up FFTA.
I would have not destroyed that world, the only downside is newt was getting pretentious.
>Can you be happy if you are never sad?
Were Adam and Eve happy before they had committed sin?
Please help us understand and not be a bunch of dumb niggers. Here is your chance.
Because, something something something.
Not real is a bad thing!
>you just close yourself on a shell of what you assume is happiness,
Just like when Shinji or Asuka pretended to be "the eva pilot" as their shell, and both got broken eventually. Even though Shinji thought he was not running away anymore when he decided to keep fighting and stay a pilot, he realized he was still only doing it for his father's approval, and that he still hated himself. Instrumentality works on that same idea of the characters living that bubble of false reality.
Its an evolution of humanity as one single being. We all need each other anyway.
I hate the bible, way too hard to comprehend fully. In my opinion both were perfect in the world, but every perfection in the world needs an exact opposite, and that's the first sin. In other to create more perfect beings, they had to sacrifice their own.
No one wants communism. Even worse if it means a perfect world for every single being in the world.
Remember that there's no progress or change in Instrumentality, since everything is already perfect.
>We all need each other anyway.
But they're not "each other" anymore so it's kind of pointless, everybody's nothing
The scene at the end of them melding together, but then choosing to become solid again so they can actually hold hands and touch, is a perfect summary of the message - Shinji decided to keep on living so he can form relationships with others, accepting reality and his own and others' individuality, in order to appreciate them. And then the ending continues on with it, with both choking and a caressing touch, to show both rejection and hate, and acceptance and love, that can and will happen when individuals are individuals.
TV and EoE are different views of the same event. TV is inside Shinji's head, and EoE is what's happening to the outside world.
Instead of deciding for humanity whether to keep everyone as individuals or to force everyone to become tang, he let's them decide for themselves. Deep inside everyone else they prefer to be happy as tang so their AT fields ( which keep them in their human forms ) get broken down and they become a part of the sea of tang with everyone else.
While Shinji decides to reject instrumentality, and stays as an individual even though it means he continues to be hurt. Asuka does the same.
It's possible for humanity to return to their individual forms if they desire.
How is it delusional? He finally learned to accept himself. The TV ending is the best of all time.
What happens to Asuka and Shinji after the ending of EoE?
What happens now?
They're "the same', but TV End is more immediately optimistic and happy. Very cathartic. EOE is more depressing with the intense process of him breaking down in a horrifying spectacle, and bittersweet with the resolution of showing that he's still very fucked up even after his congratulations. It's such a piece of work that I have to rate it higher overall.
What do we strive for if not perfection?
the world aint gonna repopulate itself if you know what i mean
Adam and Eve basically.
Love and Understanding!
They have hot seks and mari shows up.
Asuka dies and Shinji goes to the moon on Eva 01.
Then Anno decides to cycle shit up with rebuild and shit up everything
After watching both the TV ending and EoE more than 3 times, I don't think that's correct anymore. Read the thread and think for a bit
TV ending > EOE (great but overplus) > rebuild (Nobody wants)
No fuck I mean, Mari and Shinji can't die because of the Eva curse, they just change physically after thousands of years or something.
I don't know, thing is Kowaru is just Shinji and Mari is just Asuka from an older Cycle.
But is that not just a type of perfection?
Exactly. Hence why there is only one perfection, and it needs an opposite. The only "happy" world, is the sad one, aka, the world where only Shinji and Asuka are left alive.
Love is never perfect
TV end : everyone getting unite and approved it.
EOE : everyone getting unite but Shinji reject it and regreted rejecting at the last.
In instrumentality, it is. But at the same time, it can't be qualified as Love if there's not Hate to contrast it.
It is when you have a waifu.
Did you listen to nothing that was said before the ending? It's obvious that Shinji's views eventually turn to rejecting instrumentality.
what happened was that Shinji woke up from a daydream. He imagined Tokyo 3, the Second Impact, the EVAs, everything. It features all his classmates and teacher because it's childlike little fantasy of his.
But I don't like effort. Instrumentality sounds great.
Why exactly did Shinji even return to Earth with it being in the state that it is? What could he do there if he was alone? He wasn't the god, Rei was, but she decomposed.
If people really can return to Earth by rejecting Instrumentality at any time they chose, I'm confident Shinji would end up dying waiting for everyone he wanted to protect, never mind every soul that got sucked into Lilith's egg.
It's fine. He can just live the rest of his life just with his waifu. They can probably drink tang for sustenance.
Also look at the rust on Misato's cross.
They make Mari.
He can kick back and farm water melon
It's just a metaphor
The quote "I understand! I can exist here!" is used by proponents to say Shinji realized he can live in this new Instrumentality world. In the Newtype Filmbook description of the last scene of EoTV is "Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face). A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji.
Mari won't end up being their daughter.
You're right. Mari will turn out to be Asuka's mom.
I'm not sure I understand many of your arguments.
>Instrumentality is what one envisions as a perfect world
>Can one truly be happy if their is no sadness? (or something along these lines)
So, if that's the case, can't this perfect world be manipulated to provide some sadness if that's what you want to be happy? Is the argument that people 'need' sadness to truly have happiness, but that's not what they 'want'? Or are you guys just saying it's deluding yourself from the real world, so that's the reason it can't provide happiness?
Am I the only one that thinks such a world could provide happiness for certain people?
I don't get why people say he accepted Instrumentality in the TV end. As far as I can see when he decides that he can accept himself he is saying he doesn't need to join with everyone else in Instrumentality because he is happy with just being Shinji.
Then I come on /a/ and see everyone else had the opposite opinion. The TV ending seems to explain why he comes back at the end of EoE, and since it is occurring "during Instrumentality" it makes the most chronological sense for it to be a rejection of Instrumentality and an acceptance of his value as an individual.
It's pretty much confirmed that Mari is Gendo at this point.
Mari won't have any relation to her because it would make her character even meaningful. The fact she's Asuka's only real friend by her choice is one of the only things that defines her character at this point.
I never understood the theory that he stayed as goop, because he literally says "I want to be myself!" which is the exact opposite of Instrumentality
This Anon gets it
I was thinking the same thing. I didn't even remember her name (which for a fact was not said one time during 3.0) until I read the last few posts of this thread.
Don't delude yourself, anon.
If it helps though, we're going to get a lot more Mari daughteru fanart after 4.0's release.
See, this is what I was saying here>>101764133
The theory that End of Eva and the TV end are two different events is hugely inconsistent with Shinji's feeling in the TV end. It seems to be pretty obvious the TV end is the mental process that Shinji goes through when he decides to return from Tang at the end of EoE.
It honestly varies.
>gendo is king of lillin
>asuka is the princess
The master is about to pander like he's never pandered beforee
Gendo is the king, Asuka the princess, following that logic Rei/Lilith is the Queen and Shinji is the prince.
But who the hell are Mari and Kaworu?
And why did Mari say that Shinji had to save the princess?
>The master is about to pander like he's never pandered beforee
I'm so fucking ready.
There has to be a gif of this.
Mari is the time traveling royal cat and Kaworu is princess charming
Judging by asukas "you didn't even help me" to shinji, mari probably wanted him to help her after ejecting or whatever
Mari is a knight or something.
Kaworu's dead so nobody cares.
Nah, she is just going to turn out to be some backstabber and will get killed by Asuka
You're a lifesaver Anon. Have a Gendo.
hear me out guys
guys hear me out
the whole ending might be an alegory to tell people
NOT TO BELIEVE HE ACCEPTED INSTRUMENTALITY BECAUSE YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VIEWPOINT AND TO FOLLOW THE SAYINGS OF WHAT EVERYONE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE LAST MINUTE.
Shinji was supposed to have long feminine hair in the early concepts, so that it draped over his face when he went in the fetal position like that
It could also be read as a callback to the Bardiel incident
That would explain all that "lancer" thematic from the 2.22 intro
You don't get it. Your whole post made that clear. If you question why, you'll never understand.
he didn't accept instrumentality
he realized he could love himself, which was the overarching issue of the story
both endings make this clear
Both Unit 05 and Unit 08 were knight-ish, if this whole fairy tail thingamajig turns out to be real I wouldn't be impressed if you were right.
It's not, Princess is just a pet name for Asuka because she expects to be treated like a princess.
Yeah, exactly this, the whole king of lillin was just Kaworu bullshiting like he always does.
>Because you sure as fuck don't want to take any life lessons from EoE
You what? EoE has some of the most Inspirational stuff ever. Just look at the scenes after he "rejects" Rei.
The thing I remember best is:
Even though I will be hurt, I still want to be together with people.