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/a/, I'm really conflicted about Eva's TV ending.

I sort of like it as it gives a very uplifting tone and incites morale, but the whole point is that in the TV ending he accepted Instrumentality. So all that happiness and all the stuff his peers were saying in his head was blather and designed to convince him give in to the false/man made "happiness" that is Instrumentality. After that they congratulate him for doing so as a whole.

Ergo, you get a happy ending entirely based on delusions and you can't take it to heart to actually take a life lesson from the show gracefully to better yourself as a person.

Because you sure as fuck don't want to take any life lessons from EoE. Even if he did do the right thing.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of that. I'm trying to take something out of Eva.
>>
>>101756232

>TV Ending

don't borther
>>
EoE is meant to be a different view on the TV ending, and Shinji is said to have rejected Instrumentality in both timelines. I'd say it was ambiguous at the very least.

I like the TV ending much better than EoE, but the movie is complementary. He stops being a coward and stops running away.
>>
>>101756232
dude how beta can you get.
What the fuck are you even talking about.
>>
OP I am curious to hear your interpretation of the life lesson found in EoE. I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't know what even the fuck. I thought the message in the TV ending was valid. The understanding that we all have our own subjective experience that is entirely up to us to make of it what we will. How is that a delusion?
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>>101756545
The TV ending implies that he accepted instrumentality, and EoE just blatantly rejects it.
It's not certain that instrumentality DID happen in TV though.
>>
>he accepted Instrumentality

No he didn't.
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>>101756627
>The TV ending implies that he accepted instrumentality
That's what I got, but certainly not what a lot of other people suggest and certainly not what somewhat 'official' descriptions give subsequent to the release of EoE.
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>>101756627

OP here, it certainly seems like it. The whole sequence of a false world, and everyone congratulating him as "a whole" point to that, as well as a glass breaking.

What I'm trying to get at though, Is instrumentality a false happiness? A kind of decision of well, you can either have the truth (EoE) or man-made manufactured happiness that relies on changing the world around you and not yourself (like he did in EoE)
>>
I thought the delusions were the world of the series, and instrumentality was him breaking away from them.
>>
Instrumentality is the next stage of human evolution so by Shinji rejecting it and not being 'beta' what does that say?
>>
EoE and TV are the same ending. TV is just what's going on in his head, and EoE is what's going on in the outside world.
>>
>>101756609

as said here

>>101756758

He finally realizes he has to change himself and not rely on either

A.) Changing others or understanding them (that's touched on multiple times during the series.)

or B.) Having everyone else do everything for you, or the whole concept of Instrumentality.
>>
>>101756232
>but the whole point is that in the TV ending he accepted Instrumentality.
citation needed
>>
>>101756627
a title card explicitly state instrumentality is happening in the TV ending
>>
>>101756758
Instrumentality is basically that all souls exist as a single one, basically "Heaven".
If all humanity goes to said "Heaven" everyone lives forever on a, single for each individual, happy world.
Now back on track with happening or not, it's possible due to Gendo and Yui being together and congratulating him (Both wanted it to happen), but at the same time it's not certain because of people that Shinji didn't want in his world (Akatsuki and others) in it.
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>>101756232
>tv ending
Omedetou.
>>
>>101756758
That's really the vital question posed by EoE and the TV ending. Is being wondertang'd and coexisting in a pile of goo, happiness? What is your answer to that? Shinji rejected it, in the hope of something real despite the ability to be hurt.
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>>101757044
I think it's quite backwards. He chose to hurt people in TV by letting instrumentality(All theory though) kill everyone in the current world and make a new one, and chose not to bother with others in EoE, hence why he stops instrumentality half-way in.
>>
>>101756943
The way you put it, it makes it seem that each person would live in their own fantastic world.
The main message was that human interaction is what makes living worthwhile however, so would each person be living in a world with fake people or no people at all in your view?
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>>101757129
What actually means to be with people? Anno was on a isolated-kid line of thought when he made TV ending, I'm assuming that being on a world where there are people that are exactly as you want them to be is the same as no people at all.
Look at it as a person who buys everything in life, it is easier to understand that way, except it's all given to you for free. Your own little world.
>>
>>101757044


>>101756827
Raises a really good point I hadn't thought of.

Basically, if Shinji did really reject instrumentality in the TV ending. I can be happy knowing that.

If one can see rejecting instrumentality as "the truth", both of yourself and the world around you, you can tell why I'm pissed here. There's a happy ending where you reject truth and a sad/insane ending where you embrace truth.
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Instrumentality=Communism
AMERICA WILL NEVER FALL TO COMMUNIST INVASION
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>>101757294
If people were exactly as you want and you weren't satisfied, you could simply make them to act more like real people.
>>
The way I see it, Anno wanted us to see instrumentality as a bad thing and to drive that point home, Shinji rejects it.
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>>101756232
They just didn't have the budget to show instrumentality happening or not happening so they skipped to the key message which is the same in both.
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>>101757417
That's for each and everyone to make. Shinji was a person with a really set mindset that didn't require much processing or thinking, he would be happy on a world where people just congratulated him when he did the exact stuff people wanted him to.
Probably, in Gendo's own little world, he is alone with Yui walking on a park with no one else around still on his 20s.
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>>101756232
>So all that happiness and all the stuff his peers were saying in his head was blather and designed to convince him give in to the false/man made "happiness" that is Instrumentality.

You could say the same thing about any kind of happiness derived from human love or companionship

Just be happy for Shinji, even if he is orange juice.
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>>101757574
Instrumentality doesn't sound too bad by the sounds of that.
Freaking Shinji had to ruin it for everybody.
>>
So, why is instrumentality bad again?

>>101757711
Actually Shinji just gives people the chance to reject it, he doesn't stop instrumentality.
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>>101757711
You are basically destroying humanity and the world though.
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>>101757711
What is the point of living if everything is just given to you though?
Part of life is overcoming obstacles and receiving what we desire from our triumphs.
Is there any point in life if everything just bends to your will?
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>>101757806

Nothing is destroyed. Everyone lives happily together as tang.
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>>101757806
>destroying humanity
>implying thats a bad thing
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>>101757806
Why does that matter when you'll be living the perfect life you've always wanted?
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>>101757840
im neet, instrumentality sounds great
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>>101757782
Because we can't hurt each other. Ironically. It's not human interaction if we can't do that.
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>>101757806
Is The World Even Real If There Are No People To Bite It?
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>>101757854
>>101757857
>>101757859
By doing that, you just close yourself on a shell of what you assume is happiness, without giving into the troubles and problems of a real life.
Hell i'd choose instrumentality, but it's a very hard question to pose upon a 14 year old.
>>
People keep making the comparison between having others be the way you want and accepting people as they are. My way of thinking is that what we want is not some concrete thing. The way people truly are can become what we want. We think the way we think because of everything that has happened to us. Shinji's way of thinking was that of a horribly confused child. He saw some shit man. His simplistic way of thinking about others, their motives and true perceptions was simplistic. I was left with the impression that he carried his confusion with him to the end in EoE, whereas in the TV ending he finally got his head around his own confusion.
>>
>2014
>There are still people that don't understand Evangelion

Jesus fuck you niggas are dumb.
>>
>>101757840
It's not completely perfect.

In Shinji's world, he goes to school and has friends, but Asuka still beats him, he probably isn't the smartest kid in class.

You're just basically living a life where not everything is given to you, but nothing will ever be taken away.
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>>101757711
>Instrumentality doesn't sound too bad by the sounds of that.
BUT ITS NOT HEALTHY!
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>>101757951

So basically /a/.
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>>101757951
And that's why I think Shinji remains one of the most impressive characters I've come across.
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>>101757951
Do you like problems? Do you like real life?
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>>101757979
Can you be happy if you are never sad?
>>101758059
Without naruto threads.
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>>101758039
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>>101758124
Shinji looked happy in his world.
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>>101758117
blogshit if you ask me that but, I've been sad for most of my life, and the time I have the most fun is watching anime, reading manga and discussing evangelion on /a/. On 4 years I've never grown old of it and will possibly keep doing it my whole life. But I also know what it is to be heartbroken, get fired and don't make it to a university.
You can't be free forever.
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>>101758039
You had to bring up FFTA.
I would have not destroyed that world, the only downside is newt was getting pretentious.
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>>101758124
>>101758124
>Can you be happy if you are never sad?
Were Adam and Eve happy before they had committed sin?
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>>101757978
Please help us understand and not be a bunch of dumb niggers. Here is your chance.
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>>101758150
Because, something something something.
Not real is a bad thing!
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>>101757951
>>101756758
>you just close yourself on a shell of what you assume is happiness,

Just like when Shinji or Asuka pretended to be "the eva pilot" as their shell, and both got broken eventually. Even though Shinji thought he was not running away anymore when he decided to keep fighting and stay a pilot, he realized he was still only doing it for his father's approval, and that he still hated himself. Instrumentality works on that same idea of the characters living that bubble of false reality.
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>>101757806
Not really.
Its an evolution of humanity as one single being. We all need each other anyway.
>>
>>101758411
I hate the bible, way too hard to comprehend fully. In my opinion both were perfect in the world, but every perfection in the world needs an exact opposite, and that's the first sin. In other to create more perfect beings, they had to sacrifice their own.
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>>101758531
No one wants communism. Even worse if it means a perfect world for every single being in the world.
Remember that there's no progress or change in Instrumentality, since everything is already perfect.
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>>101758531
>We all need each other anyway.

But they're not "each other" anymore so it's kind of pointless, everybody's nothing

The scene at the end of them melding together, but then choosing to become solid again so they can actually hold hands and touch, is a perfect summary of the message - Shinji decided to keep on living so he can form relationships with others, accepting reality and his own and others' individuality, in order to appreciate them. And then the ending continues on with it, with both choking and a caressing touch, to show both rejection and hate, and acceptance and love, that can and will happen when individuals are individuals.
>>
TV and EoE are different views of the same event. TV is inside Shinji's head, and EoE is what's happening to the outside world.

Instead of deciding for humanity whether to keep everyone as individuals or to force everyone to become tang, he let's them decide for themselves. Deep inside everyone else they prefer to be happy as tang so their AT fields ( which keep them in their human forms ) get broken down and they become a part of the sea of tang with everyone else.

While Shinji decides to reject instrumentality, and stays as an individual even though it means he continues to be hurt. Asuka does the same.

It's possible for humanity to return to their individual forms if they desire.
>>
>>101756232
How is it delusional? He finally learned to accept himself. The TV ending is the best of all time.
>>
What happens to Asuka and Shinji after the ending of EoE?
What happens now?
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They're "the same', but TV End is more immediately optimistic and happy. Very cathartic. EOE is more depressing with the intense process of him breaking down in a horrifying spectacle, and bittersweet with the resolution of showing that he's still very fucked up even after his congratulations. It's such a piece of work that I have to rate it higher overall.
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>>101759004
What do we strive for if not perfection?
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>>101759614

Happiness.
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>>101759492
the world aint gonna repopulate itself if you know what i mean
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>>101759492
Adam and Eve basically.
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>>101759614

Love and Understanding!
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>>101759492
They have hot seks and mari shows up.
Asuka dies and Shinji goes to the moon on Eva 01.

Then Anno decides to cycle shit up with rebuild and shit up everything
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>>101759189
After watching both the TV ending and EoE more than 3 times, I don't think that's correct anymore. Read the thread and think for a bit
>>
TV ending > EOE (great but overplus) > rebuild (Nobody wants)
>>
>>101759745
No fuck I mean, Mari and Shinji can't die because of the Eva curse, they just change physically after thousands of years or something.

I don't know, thing is Kowaru is just Shinji and Mari is just Asuka from an older Cycle.
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>>101759670
>>101759738
But is that not just a type of perfection?
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>>101759933
Exactly. Hence why there is only one perfection, and it needs an opposite. The only "happy" world, is the sad one, aka, the world where only Shinji and Asuka are left alive.
>>
>>101760041
>>101759933

Love is never perfect
>>
TV end : everyone getting unite and approved it.
EOE : everyone getting unite but Shinji reject it and regreted rejecting at the last.
>>
>>101760122
In instrumentality, it is. But at the same time, it can't be qualified as Love if there's not Hate to contrast it.
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>>101760122

It is when you have a waifu.
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>>101756232
Did you listen to nothing that was said before the ending? It's obvious that Shinji's views eventually turn to rejecting instrumentality.
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>>101756758
what happened was that Shinji woke up from a daydream. He imagined Tokyo 3, the Second Impact, the EVAs, everything. It features all his classmates and teacher because it's childlike little fantasy of his.
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>>101762409
>>
>>101757840
>>101757951
But I don't like effort. Instrumentality sounds great.
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Why exactly did Shinji even return to Earth with it being in the state that it is? What could he do there if he was alone? He wasn't the god, Rei was, but she decomposed.

If people really can return to Earth by rejecting Instrumentality at any time they chose, I'm confident Shinji would end up dying waiting for everyone he wanted to protect, never mind every soul that got sucked into Lilith's egg.
>>
>>101762903
It's fine. He can just live the rest of his life just with his waifu. They can probably drink tang for sustenance.
>>
>>101762903
CurseofEVA

Also look at the rust on Misato's cross.
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>>101759492
They make Mari.
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>>101762903
He can kick back and farm water melon
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>>101762903

It's just a metaphor
>>
The quote "I understand! I can exist here!" is used by proponents to say Shinji realized he can live in this new Instrumentality world. In the Newtype Filmbook description of the last scene of EoTV is "Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face). A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji.
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>>101763589
Mari won't end up being their daughter.
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>>101763990
You're right. Mari will turn out to be Asuka's mom.
>>
I'm not sure I understand many of your arguments.
>Instrumentality is what one envisions as a perfect world
Correct?
>Can one truly be happy if their is no sadness? (or something along these lines)
So, if that's the case, can't this perfect world be manipulated to provide some sadness if that's what you want to be happy? Is the argument that people 'need' sadness to truly have happiness, but that's not what they 'want'? Or are you guys just saying it's deluding yourself from the real world, so that's the reason it can't provide happiness?

Am I the only one that thinks such a world could provide happiness for certain people?
>>
I don't get why people say he accepted Instrumentality in the TV end. As far as I can see when he decides that he can accept himself he is saying he doesn't need to join with everyone else in Instrumentality because he is happy with just being Shinji.

Then I come on /a/ and see everyone else had the opposite opinion. The TV ending seems to explain why he comes back at the end of EoE, and since it is occurring "during Instrumentality" it makes the most chronological sense for it to be a rejection of Instrumentality and an acceptance of his value as an individual.
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>>101764081
It's pretty much confirmed that Mari is Gendo at this point.
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>>101764081
Mari won't have any relation to her because it would make her character even meaningful. The fact she's Asuka's only real friend by her choice is one of the only things that defines her character at this point.
>>
>>101763885

I never understood the theory that he stayed as goop, because he literally says "I want to be myself!" which is the exact opposite of Instrumentality
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>>101764233
This Anon gets it
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>>101764233
I was thinking the same thing. I didn't even remember her name (which for a fact was not said one time during 3.0) until I read the last few posts of this thread.
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>>101763990
Don't delude yourself, anon.

If it helps though, we're going to get a lot more Mari daughteru fanart after 4.0's release.
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>>101764237
See, this is what I was saying here>>101764133

The theory that End of Eva and the TV end are two different events is hugely inconsistent with Shinji's feeling in the TV end. It seems to be pretty obvious the TV end is the mental process that Shinji goes through when he decides to return from Tang at the end of EoE.
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>>101764133
It honestly varies.
>>
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>>101763990
>gendo is king of lillin
>asuka is the princess

The master is about to pander like he's never pandered beforee
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>>101764494
Gendo is the king, Asuka the princess, following that logic Rei/Lilith is the Queen and Shinji is the prince.
But who the hell are Mari and Kaworu?
And why did Mari say that Shinji had to save the princess?
>>
>>101764494
>The master is about to pander like he's never pandered beforee
I'm so fucking ready.
>>
>>101764714
There has to be a gif of this.
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>>101764648
Mari is the time traveling royal cat and Kaworu is princess charming

Judging by asukas "you didn't even help me" to shinji, mari probably wanted him to help her after ejecting or whatever
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>>101764648
Mari is a knight or something.

Kaworu's dead so nobody cares.
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>>101764081
Nah, she is just going to turn out to be some backstabber and will get killed by Asuka
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>>101764767
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>>101764895
You're a lifesaver Anon. Have a Gendo.
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hear me out guys

guys hear me out

the whole ending might be an alegory to tell people

NOT TO BELIEVE HE ACCEPTED INSTRUMENTALITY BECAUSE YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VIEWPOINT AND TO FOLLOW THE SAYINGS OF WHAT EVERYONE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE LAST MINUTE.
>>
>>101764784

Shinji was supposed to have long feminine hair in the early concepts, so that it draped over his face when he went in the fetal position like that
>>
>>101764784
It could also be read as a callback to the Bardiel incident
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>>101764841
That would explain all that "lancer" thematic from the 2.22 intro
>>
>>101756232
You don't get it. Your whole post made that clear. If you question why, you'll never understand.
>>
he didn't accept instrumentality

he realized he could love himself, which was the overarching issue of the story

both endings make this clear
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>>101764841
Both Unit 05 and Unit 08 were knight-ish, if this whole fairy tail thingamajig turns out to be real I wouldn't be impressed if you were right.
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>>101766953
It's not, Princess is just a pet name for Asuka because she expects to be treated like a princess.
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>>101767133
Yeah, exactly this, the whole king of lillin was just Kaworu bullshiting like he always does.
>>
>>101756232
>Because you sure as fuck don't want to take any life lessons from EoE
You what? EoE has some of the most Inspirational stuff ever. Just look at the scenes after he "rejects" Rei.
The thing I remember best is:
Even though I will be hurt, I still want to be together with people.



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