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So why are Sabers considered the strongest class? It seems like as a rule, Archers tend to be a lot tougher.
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because Saber has the strongest plot armor
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Because beamu swords.
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Sabers are the most balanced class in terms of everything.
Then again, if you have done your homework, it's possible to summon servants like Gil and Karna who are just OP no matter what class they're in.
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Gil is the strongest servant, or thereabouts, he just happens to be summonable as Archer.
Emiya wasn't particularly powerful, just very resourceful and had some good compatibility. Saber would've wiped the floor with him in a straight fight, as was more or less implied throughout the VN.
Other Archers really aren't powerful either, especially the likes of Robin Hood, etc. Herakles and Karna would be the only ones who'd be real Archer power houses, but that's more or less unique to them and their being multi-class compatible, since they'd be pretty much just as powerful in any other class.
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>>101739507

So why is the art and character design in this series so uninspired?
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>>101739658
oh god, this image does absolutely not make sense.
what was the artist thinking?
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>>101739507
Think of your Sabers in general, the likes of Arthur, Mordred, Seiggy,Gawain

All of them have fantastic stats, and most tend to have great mana resistance.

If you took it on a case by case basis sabers would tend to outshine all other classes strengthwise
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>>101740264
>what was the artist thinking?
Probably not much, considering the derp faces on Rin and Sakura.
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>>101740264
King Arthur protects Shirou and his bitches. Makes sense.
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Gilgamesh is an exception to the archer class, not the rule.
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If you take the general containers stats, Sabers are the best. Archers are one of the worse
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>>101739507
Sabers are the strongest because the class itself is OP (best magic resistance, sick strenght), and they are usually the strongest heroes in legends.

However, in FSN and F/Z, Saber is so OP that Nasu had to nerf her so that she won't rape all the servants in the first night.
That's why she gets a injury from Lancer in both to prevent her from doing so.

If it wasn't for the sake of plot, and if she had Rin as her master, Saber would have won the FSN and lost herself to Angra Mainyu.
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>>101743905
>berseker so low
I-- Wat?
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>>101743905
Oddly enough, it's all balanced out by them being one of the only classes that defaults to ranged attacks and that possess the seemingly godly independent action ability. Their resourcefulness also tends to make them servants with various different skills.

>>101744226
The same could be said about Lancer and his restraint on being unable to fight all-out. Gae Bolg's default activation is practically capable of ending the entire Grail War in one night save for Saber and Berserker (and Saber would likely lose if the battle continues). Then there's Archer actually having forgotten most of everything and getting a critically wounded by Saber...
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>>101744565
Thats base, it doesn't include the madness enchantment so add a rank to everything and it putts them slightly under lancer at the worse
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>>101739507
Only Gilgamesh is truly powerful within the Archers. Emiya is more like Batman.
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>>101740055
I thought it was implied that Archer was the "OPest" except for the fact that he had Lancer-tier luck in the story ?
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>>101744567
Remember that archer did remember everything, he just lied about it for convenience. Saber struck him down because he was shocked over seeing her again.
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>>101745470
He's not overpowered. He's just clever about what he's got.
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>>101745470
Stat wise, Archer is a pretty subpar Servant. Is just that his projections turn him into a jack of all trades hero.
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>>101744567
My point is that those characters and the plot shouldn't blind anyone on the class capabilities.
Cu Chulainn and his Gae Bolg and Diarmuid were chosen and designed by Nasu so that they could fill the roles he wanted them too, and one of them was nerfing Saber so that she could grow in power rather than being all-powerful right from the beginning.
Archer memory was probably decided as an excuse to explain why Archer doesn't try to kill Shirou in Fate.

People gives too much importance to powerlevel in fictions. This isn't a fighting game, it's a story with a beginning and an end, and some choices are made in regard to that.

So yeah, Saber is the strongest. But in FSN she happen to fall on a very powerful Lancer who happen to have just the right attack to build some drama later on, and in F/Z she happen to fall for a trick laid out from another Lancer who happen to have just the right attack to build some drama later on.

Also, Fate is more about fighters giving everything they have, resulting in unpredictable outcomes, rather than straight up powerlevel confrontations. There is a reason why there are all these bad ends were Shirou and/or Saber dies.
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>>101745470
UBW makes him like Gil without the stats. Gil rarely needed to use his stats so he's pretty decent so long as he's not in close range
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>>101745644
According to Nasu he was actually being honest to Rin when he said the summoning jumbled up his memory. Remembering Saber just happened because she left such a deep impression he wouldn't forget her no matter what (which is the point of the line at the beginning of the VN).
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What happens if Lancer tries to gaybulge someone with EX luck?

Would he instantly kill himself?
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>>101746348
Critical failure if he make a 2 or less. Failure if equal or less than 11, no critical sucess.
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>>101746348
>Low stats
>Projectile weapons
>Projectile NP
I'd imagine that he wouldn't need to go that far
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If we ignore the whole , he may betray you thing, how OP would he be as lancer ?

''Lu Bu has the equivalent of six Servants' worth of Noble Phantasms for himself. The forms, Forces (フォース, ?), include:

Slash (切断, ?) for heavy damage attacks that nullify or cut through and break all kinds of physical defense.
Thrust (刺突, ?), the Halberd (矛, ?) Force, for heavy damage attacks that can stun on hit, the target being rendered immobile due to spear impalement, and penetrate through a line of enemies.
Blunt strike (打撃, ?) for raising his defense by transforming into huge bracers, or using a special defensive technique for blocking and redirecting attacks.
Sweep (薙ぎ, ?) mode for sweeping aside a row of enemies.
Parry (払い, ?) mode for doing special counterattacks to do damage while deflecting physical attacks.
Shoot (射撃, ?), the Cannon (砲, ?) Force, for a large-bore, wave motion cannon-like "Lu Bu beam." The halberd separates into a large bow and arrow that charges and fires at the enemy. ''
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As I recall, Saber was accounted the strongest servant class because Saber was the only class to always make it to the final showdown in every single Grail War.
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>>101744565
Berserker is a class to make weak spirits stronger.
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>>101739507
>It seems like as a rule, Archers tend to be a lot tougher.
Did you not see the shit the Berseker classes did?
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>>101739507
Sabers = Always have major issues
Archers = Always strongest servants
Lancers = Always die a horrible death
Riders = Always Best bro's
Assassins = Always just exist to be killed
Casters = Always best soulmates
Berserkers = Always choosing the worst people for the class
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Best Lancer.
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>>101750094

Appears you had a image mix-up let me fix it for you
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>>101740055
>Saber would've wiped the floor with him in a straight fight, as was more or less implied throughout the VN.

Nasu calls that fight a toss up depending more on the master than the servant in that case; since it's a very "Whoever gets off the first shot wins" as his sniping is just as deadly as her close range.

If it's a ranged battle he has a high advantage, but if it's close range she'll have an advantage.
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>>101747232
Her stats aren't great but they are around mid-tier, and his "Protection Against Arrows" doesn't work against greater phantasms or AOE NPS as directly noted in the description. Her NP despite being projectile is a greater phantasm here.
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>>101750432
If i remember right AOEs are specified but nothing about Phatasms.

The general idea i always took from it was that whilst he could block say vajra, he could block the attack itself, however as it emits lightning no matter what, the ability won't do anything to stop the lightning part.

Golden hind fires canonballs which don't have AOE properties.
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>>101750756
>but nothing about Phatasms.
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>>101750963
Also there's a data book entry here
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>>101750963
Point taken, but thats a reference to phantasms with that special effect.Example, the thown bolg, Fragarach

The golden hind has no such special abilityies its just a barrage of cannon fire.
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>>101751201
>Fragarach

Not true, Fragarach has it's own special way of working.
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>>101751369
Its still used as a projectile, somthing which protection against arrows should work against, but due to its effect it bypasses it, which is what >>101750963 is most likely referring to.
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>>101751525

Oh fair enough, it would be something he should be able to avoid completely if it isn't being used as a trump counter.
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>>101751201
He's not automatically immune to all projectiles here; Hind is a full on assault with an A+ rank phantasm that fires an armada of canon fire at him with some area of effect damage for the explosive rounds. It is about what one would consider a greater phantasm, and considering it's rank and legend it's doubtful it can just be written off as mere canon fire.

Lancer admits that with his level of ability he can dodge pretty much anything shot from a place that he can see, but greater phantasms will still get to him. Just look at it being noted in Ataraxia how Archer shot Lancer away from his own home there when he was playing hero in the Shinto area; this is either because Hrunting BP is just a bitch to have to keep dealing with since it only gets stronger the more he fires it off until about the sixth shot when it reaches it's peak, Archer was shooting from outside Cu's perception which is true so Protection of Arrows could not apply there, Lancer was just not looking for a fight at the time, or a combination of most of those really.

It's kind of like that, Lancer still had to watch out for Archer's projectiles there as they still might be a danger, and Gil's could eventually be a threat as well after enough time, but his skill does give him a huge leg up on such things as any minor arrow won't even be a threat to him in the first place and he gets a huge dodge bonus against even high-class projectiles that lets him dodge what might not even normally be dodgable. Rather than a hard rule I'd say it's more like his EVA stat will go up a few stages any time something being shot or thrown is involved
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>>101740264
Rin looks like she is evil, and there is something terribly wrong with her hand.
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>>101752063
She's not evil, it's just the way of magi
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>>101750270
>If it's a ranged battle he has a high advantage, but if it's close range she'll have an advantage.

His advantage in long range is so big he managed to kill Saber and Shirou a bunch of times in F/HA.His hrunting sniping is nothing to be scoffed at.
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>>101752358
Magus gotta magus
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>>101743905
Why do Assasins have some of highest stats while still being the worst servants.
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>>101752805

Because Fuyuki grail wars are restricted to terrible assassins?
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>>101739507
I'd like to see Atlanta or Robin-Hood be as strong as Gil or EMIYA.
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>>101752805
Well true assassin was decent (Well thought out plans) but he just had crappy weapons.

Assassin Zero was broken as fuck if Kirei had have decided to win the war earlier , he most likely wouldn't have had too many issues.

Loli Jack has fantastic skills/NP and currently has the entire black force gunning for her And Jeanne since her master killed Sieg

Li's presence concealment equivilent is broken.

Semi is iffy at best because of the whole double summon thing so im not sure she counts
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>>101752805

They have to be one of the original Assassins which limits their pool. Plus, heroic spirits are literally powered by fame. Who's more famous? Hercules? Gilgamesh? King Arthur? Or Hajclackma Kaflruantoktum XVIII, who was pretty good at stabbing dudes in public while blazing it up a thousand years ago?
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>>101753127

Goddamn, imagine the horror that would ensue if Kiritsugu summoned Zero Assassin. The Grail War would be over in fifteen minutes, lunch break included.
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>>101753053
Atlanta a shit, Spartacus took her anti army NP head on (Concentrated, thats an anti army NP compressed onto one fucker) and came out smiling

Robin Hood is just a plain good servant, the only issue is the lack presence concealment, but that didn't stop him from sneaking around in the game so maybe he doesn't need it
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>>101753053
>be as strong as Gil or EMIYA.

Never going to happen. the closest you are going to get to Gil is Karna, Hercules, or Altria
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>>101753127
>Assassin Zero was broken as fuck if Kirei had have decided to win the war earlier , he most likely wouldn't have had too many issues.

It's not quite that easy, as Assassin found out the two times they tried to kill Waver. A good servant will still notice Hassan's presence and protect their master in any case as Saber did in HF when he went after Shirou, which is why the only time they'd have a decent shot at the master is when the servant is fighting something else and thus is too preoccupied to do anything.

Assassin if he teamed up with any other servant could be fairly broken since he could attack the master while the servant is busy, but Gilgamesh isn't into teamwork like that and Zero Assassin himself isn't likely to be able to face other servants in battle at all to even hold off another servant while going for the kill. The most he splits up the weaker his overall power and the greater his mental degradation in a way, but Assassin was never meant to fight other servants in the first place which is why that wasn't a viable path for him. The idea of "If we all jump you at once one of us is bound to get lucky no matter how weak we are individually" wasn't the worst plan, but there are some real problems with it in the short of long term.

4th Assassin is good for surveillance, but to think he's broken as fuck or would be able to take every master out with ease is a mistake. However if used correctly then he would be assured to get results if allowed to act, since he did have multiple moments when he could have taken out some masters in the story while they were unguarded. Still someone like Waver who seems like weak prey is the wrong kind of target here, since chances are Alexander isn't so foolish as to not notice if they pull something if he's even somewhat close by.
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>>101753495
Chiron is on par as well, seeming as he could arguably use Wisdom of the gods to get protection from arrows
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>>101753495
There are some other obvious ones
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>>101753723

Centaur or humanoid Chiron? IIRC Centuar has higher parameters but at the cost of being obvious of who it is

>>101753776

Prep time for his NP is way to slow.
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>>101753864
Budda has other shit

EX rank martial arts, and he can use his NP in another mode to fire off some rounds from the sound of one of the descriptions. It lacks the absolute power of his Ultimate Attack, but it's not like this guy is shit out of options of what to do until he can use his NP here.
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>>101753215
>lunch break included.
Would he have a hamburger?
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>>101754013

True but i wouldn't put him on the same level as Gil Karna, Hercules, or Altria even if it just due to his NP having that horrible delay, if it wasn't for that he would be as broken as Gilgamesh Wielding EA. I'm not saying Buddha is weak (far from it he is extremely strong) i just can't put him on the same level as the mentioned above.
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>>101753864
Either really, Horse Chirons stats are equal to or better than Gils (Exception of Luck).

I guess we'll need to wait to see what his NP is first
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>>101754283

So it all depends on what his NP is when(if) it gets revealed then? fair enough
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>>101754252
He's got the stats, an NP stronger than Ea in sheer numbers, the skills (EX rank Kalaripayattu sounds like some real shit), your servant before battle is all "I don't think I can fight something of that magnitude here" or "He's summoned a real big fish it seems", and it's stated that his existence is somewhat similar to what Kiara had become in the end.

If anything the data book makes this guy out to be a monster in a way.
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>>101753723
There's no telling if Chiron makes the cut without knowing his NP.
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>>101754529
Also this skill

>Hero Resistance: B
>When dealing with heroes, it makes their parameters go down.
>In case of B Rank, it converts all the parameters of the opponent to 2 ranks below.
>The effectiveness is weak against anti-heroes, making it only a 1 Rank-DOWN.
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>>101754529
>>101754579

You are sort of missing the point i was trying to make but whatever
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>>101754837
Is he up there with Gilgamesh, Karna, Hercules, and Arthuria.

Of course he is; when you look at the package there's he's a right monster even if his NP has a real condition to activate. Even disregarding the NP there is some real danger to be found, so it's not like he's a glass canon.
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>>101754529
>>101754579

Except he would lose to Gilgamesh with EA, Hercules with Hydra bow, Karna with his 4 NP and Avalon Altria very easily.

His NP can beat all of them but he will never ever get a chance to use it against any of them. the point he was trying to make i think
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>>101754977

Altria would Avalon through his NP, so it wouldn't work on her.
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>>101754977
A lot of that is sort of based on nothing much here; people didn't even know this guy was worth shit until the data book came out and proved he's some real shit. People may still underestimate him thinking the only danger to be found is the NP itself, but he's a very high tier spirit to begin who has more tricks than just that much.


>Chakravartin
>Saver's minor noble phantasm. The implement that a normally unarmed buddha uses to defeat its opponents.
>In the Vedic period of ancient India, a chakravartin (turner of the wheel) refers to the ideal ruler.
>Chakravartin, the noble phantasm, is a seven kilometer long chakram expanding in the sky above the Buddha.
>While slowly rotating, it fires bolts of light at Servants within the ring.
>Picture it as being an omnidirectional mobile artillery platform. The ring of light would be a rail, and the artillery platform would move over it.
>The number of rings increases with each combat turn until there are finally seven of them. The seven rings are synonymous with the seven jewels of the wheel turner.
>Their appearance is reminiscent of a rainbow, and when the fighting has escalated to its peak speed, gtransmigration into oneh, its ultimate attack from the invocation of its true name, is activated.
>The rings of light would come clanging against each other to combine into one rapidly spinning ring that would soon turn into that halo-like thing on the back of the celestial buddha Vairocana, then pillars of light amass around the PC Servant from all angles and converge onto it like in a black hole, after which there would be a huge explosion.
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>>101754977
Are you retarded?

Buddha has a passive NP that reduces any attack to 0 damage points.

Buddha has plenty of chances to use his NP.

It's Gil who would rarely get to use Ea because very few people would ever give Gil a chance to charge up Ea.

It is only possible in CCC because people actually have to take turns fighting because it a video game after all.
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isn't Saber the only class that can deal with save-or-die crap like Gay Blog and the Mystic Eyes?
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>>101754977
>Karna
The lad is stated as being incredibly mana intensive, hence why in extra he couldn't use the bramstra properly, lowering his Prauna by two ranks is going to do shit to him.

>Arthur
Even under Shirou she had B mana, if were even going rin level she'd be down to C mana which would definitely effect her excaliblast.Avalon is generally a no go seeming as she can't use it normally

I don't know enough about archer herc to comment
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>>101755361
>Gay Blog
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>>101755361
Speaking of which, the grail is a terrible DM. Pretty much EVERYTHING requires a saving throw, or the character dies.
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>>101755268
Gets a mention in Angya Manyu as well

>This is not a Noble Phantasm limited to the Earth.
>It has a special effect of doing more damage in certain conditions, the damage increasing if it's used on the opposite sex, and the higher the intelligence the greater the damage.
>The plan on paper would have been for Archer to take the least damage, while Gilgamesh would receive the greatest damage.
>As for why its performance, presentation, and sheer scale are so huge, itfs because Kiara is a being close to Saver.
>People who devote themselves to bring salvation to sattvas (all living things) are generally called Boddhisattvas, and those who have attained moksha are also >Boddhisattvas. And a Boddhisattva is a god of cosmic proportions, and easily governs at least the solar system.
>The vastness of the world view of Buddhism is on a different level from that of other religions.
>Why there are numerical concepts like Nayuta (10^60) and Muryoutaisuu (10^68) is because they were made to demonstrate the magnitude of the Buddha.
>In Buddhism, the universe is the kingdom of the Buddha, and its size is described as the great trichiliocosm.
>The galaxy is made up of 3,000 worlds (small trichiliocosm), and a thousand galaxies is a medium trichiliocosm, and a thousand of these makes up the great trichiliocosm.
>This truly can be said to be on the scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, superclusters.
>Damn India, you guys came up with this interpretation more than 2000 years ago?
>Back in the initial development phase, I handed in the text description and told them I wanted the last boss to do this with the expectation itfd get rejected because of CERO standards but it got passed without a hitch. Itfs still a mystery as to how this was able to make it through the censors.

>>101755361
No, anyone with super luck can overcome Fate in small doses.
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>>101754529
>an NP stronger than Ea in sheer numbers

Not this nonsense again. People like to throw around Amita Amitabha's numerical damage output, but non-human entities with strong convictions can still overcome it.

It's just symbolic. Ea and Shiki's special inflict instant death, as well, and Amita Amitabha just happens to be on-par.
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>>101755432

I was working along the lines of them fighting while uninhibited by masters and such. and with Rin Saber has A rank magic what are you on about?
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>>101755501
Yet they always save.
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>>101755601

In the case of lancer it probably has to do with his terrible luck
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>>101755585
Buddhas counter hero ability lowers all her stats by two ranks, with rins A rank, it would be down to a C
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>>101755585
Saver has a skill that lowers all stats on the opponent, meaning at most her stats will be C rank all around, or even D.
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>>101755305
It doesn't reduce any attack to 0. It reduces the damage by the value of his HP.

He's not going to shrug off any Phantasm that's particularly powerful.
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>>101755580
>>101755580
>It's just symbolic

This is what Gilfags actually believe.

Even Nasu said Amita is the most destructive NP in the game.
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>>101755687
>>101755695

he still has no proper defense for a A rank Excalibur blast? and down ranks don't make sense on a EX NP

>>101755305
>Buddha has a passive NP that reduces any attack to 0 damage points.

and this just sounds like bullshit.
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>>101749560

Hercules was no weak spirit.
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Why is "Luck" even a stat?
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>>101755778
>Even Nasu said Amita is the most destructive NP in the game.

Your going to need to back that up with a quote anon. because the EXTRA material has no statement like that in it
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>>101755778
No, he only called it the ultimate anti-individual NP. He also noted that its potency greatly decreases the less human his target is.
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>>101755816
It's damage is based on how much prauna she uses to charge it, less prauna less damage.

When she uses it in fate (Bad end) against herc it doesn't even kill him once (and then she fades away having used all of her prauna in the blast
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>>101755580
>but non-human entities with strong convictions can still overcome it.

Not this out of context bullshit again; you're taking a line from the data-book out of context to say "well any non-human could probably survive it if they have convictions, it's weak".

When it's really not that easy; it's stated that only MC really had a chance because he was both completely inhuman from the start and had no knowledge of the suffering of life or the four noble truths. Because he was never alive, never human he had a very very small chance, but even then it wouldn't be possible unless he obtained enlightenment(Great convictions) to counter act it even somewhat. However that's still an idea that was scrapped from the game, it was just Nasu discussing something he thought about putting in at one point.

>It deals heavy damage that no living thing, no human can take, but the protagonist isnft alive in the first place (spoiler!) so he has a small chance of withstanding it, since the protagonist has yet to be afflicted by the suffering of life or the four noble truths.

Direct quote there, because Protag isn't alive in the first place, was never alive(just because he was based on someone who once existed doesn't make him human, as he has no connection to the body), and he does not know the four noble truths it "Might" not work.

But even that's a huge if
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>>101755585
I thought for sure Ionian Hetario was a rank EX NP
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Why didnt anyone summon Jesus, Galahad, or Santa and just ask for the grail
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>>101756242

Because that holy grail isn't the one the mages want, they just want a path to the root IIRC?
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>>101756061
It is, but his NP rank value is A++
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>>101756061
It was, they tend to average it out
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Could Saber beat Gil in a fist fight?
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>>101756242
Can you imagine what insane speed Rider!Santa would have in his sled?

Even if he couldn't give you the grail straight up, the war would be in the bag with him.
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>>101756242
Because the actual Holy Grail will not work here, it's stated at least a few times in Fate and really laid out in CCC that because the Grail is a fake it can be real, but the real one will not have the same result

To be somewhat more clear here; Holy Grail is just a designation the church gives to anything that can grant a wish, but the ability to selfishly grant wishes and pile up material wealth on Earth is kind of the opposite of Christ's teachings. Thus the actual Holy Grail would not grant wishes, but a fake grail could in fact grant wishes, and only really a fake could grant wishes. The selfish grail that grants Earthly desire is more in line with the Whore of Babylon, while Christ taught more "Don't pile up possessions on Earth, aim for the Heaven's instead" which is why the reality would not work.

This was apparently a bigger theme in Fate/Prototype as the truth of the Grail and it's relation to the Beast was much more prevalent, but I believe it was mentioned briefly in Fate how that was a contradiction of sorts. In Prototype it seems to be one of those things that was so obvious in retrospect as a clue to one this contest isn't quite right, but it's something that might have been lost in the transition.
>>
>>101756595

Which Saber?
>>
>>101756051
No one is saying it's weak because it can be overcome under special conditions; it's just weaker against enemies that aren't quite human, and it can't properly save individuals that operate above mankind.

Nowhere is it noted to be the most destructive NP, as some laud it to be. It just can't be withstood when its damage is unmitigated (as it would be if you're completely human).
>>
>>101756642
one of his noble phantasms would literally be putting people in his bag
>>
>>101756341
>Still saving the incorrect chart that lists Gil's magic resistance as A when it should be C.
>>
>>101739507
Archers are durable because they specialize in Independent Action. Sabers tend to have great stats overall.
>>
>>101756648
This might make a little more sense of that.

>Golden Chalice <Aurea Boura>(? アウレア・ボーウラ): EX
>The golden chalice that BB holds. As well as a Holy Grail.
>A negative Holy Grail that grants the impudent, self-centered wishes of the owner.

>The chalice possessed by the Whore of Babylon that appears in the Revelation of St. John.
>A pseudo-Holy Grail, but exactly because it is a fake Holy Grail that it became a "genuine" Holy Grail that grants the desires of humans regardless of right and wrong.

>To the Christians that treated the honorable poverty of those days as virtue, a chalice molded with a symbol of riches such as gold evidently had connotations of corrupted wealth, greed and the vanity of adorning oneself.

>Although it was clear from the point that this was the chalice held by the Whore of Babylon - the personification of the Roman Empire - but this chalice has inverted Christ's words of "Do not pile up wealth on the land" and symbolizes the earthly wealth.

>"I saw a single woman straddled on a red beast.
>That beast, whose whole body was covered with numerous names that blasphemed God, had seven heads and ten horns."

>According to the Revelation, this is the description of the beast of ruin that appeared in the Holy City and the woman that was straddled on said beast.
>A giant beast possessing seven heads as if the Hydra was said to appear from the sea and land on the Holy City.
>This beast and woman are one and the same, it is impossible to think about them detached from each other.

>The woman is treated as one who brings forth all evils, it has been said that the imprudent and avaricious are unable to oppose her temptation and corrupted by this chalice.

>This is a digression, but the Red Saber who call herself an Emperor has been regarded in the same light as this beast and antagonized by the laymen after her death.
>>
>>101745996
>without the stats
You mean "with higher stats and skill, but with a prana cost". Swordspam is what Archer has trouble imitating, because of the comparative cost inefficiency when using NPs.
>>
>>101745358
This. And I'm pretty sure Gil is a multi class hero
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>>101756747
Nasu loves his Christian mythology

>Bishop's Staff of Rulership
>The teacher's cane that BB holds.
>A device that can fully employ the jurisdiction as a high grade AI.
>Although limited to the far-side of the moon, but by using this BB can change the spirit particles laws (game rules) inside the SE.RA.PH.

**

>The "Crowns of Ten Rulerships <Domina Cronam>(?【十の支配の王冠(ドミナ・コロナム)】)" worn by the Beast of Babylon converted into a teacher's cane.
>This is because then essence of the Male Theory, which opposes the theory that the seven-headed beast is female, is a pharos (a straight pole).

>The symbol of the king of the world, said to have been bestowed with throne and authority by a great dragon and, furthermore, granted the privilege to blaspheme against all things - no matter what insolent words are used - for a period of 42 months.

>The heads of the beast are the seven hills of the Roman Empire - Capitolinus, Palatium, Aventinus, Caelius , Esquilinus, >Quirinalis and Viminalis - in other words they mean the Roman Empire itself, while the ten horns symbolize its emperors - Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasianus, Titus, Galba, Otho and Vitellius.
>>
>>101756595
Easily. All her physical stats are equal or better, and Gil doesn't have any abilities that would help in a straight brawl. It's really not even a contest in a Fists Only, No Phantasms, Final Destination scenario.
>>
>>101756734

Is there a version with Berserker not blocked out and without that Gil error?
>>
>>101756595
>>101756861

The only (named) Saber Gil could beat in a fist fight would be Nero.
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>>101756826
Christian imagery is the golden standard for chuuni.
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>>101756870
Someone fixed the chart 3 years ago and tried to get the BT guys to fix the image but they were lazyasses and I unfortunately lost the image.
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>>101757011
>BT guys to fix the image but they were lazyasses

Why does this not surprise me?
>>
How good is Apocypha? Also how much longer for HA?
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>>101756813
''Without the stats'' sounds right. Archer was never very endowed in that regard.
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>>101755838
He is the exception of course. But the idea behind the Berserker class is to compensate.
The Einzberns just opted to use the Berserker class to have a Servant that's relatively mindless.
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>>101756642

>Christmas Spirit: Children's Wish
>Rank A+
>A single use Noble Phantasm. When activated, summons a sleigh capable of flight with hypersonic (mach 5+) speed. However, it can only be used for one night during the war, upon which it is permanently sealed. While riding the sleigh, damage receives a large bonus which also stacks with the doubled damage against Anti Heroes due to Santa's second Noble Phantasm, Naughty List: Write It Once, Check It Twice
>>
>>101757084
Stats, which he can pirate.
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>>101756956
She's the best fist fighter in the world with NP, but Gilgamesh has the original brass knuckles and boxing mitts.
>>
>>101752538
Mainly because Saber was trying to defend Shirou. Saber was able to chop him in half despite him being in long range. And enemy Servants can just avoid the areas he threatens (like they did in FHA) or hide indoors and thus neutralize his sniping.
>>
>>101757117

Well we know the Einzberns aren't the smartest bunch
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>>101755894
Perhaps because it was considered a very prominent trait in over half of the related legends.
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>>101757011
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>>101757084
Archer steals experience and stats temporarily

It's one of the few edges he has in battle, but it still can't compare to the original user in terms of skill or power. However against another faker or again someone unsuited to fighting that weapon he can do well.
>>
>>101755894
The ability to overcome Fate is luck
>>
Archer is one of the best servants to have in a grail war. He's not the strongest, but his abilities more than make up for it.

If the opponent has a weapon, Archer can datamine it for their identity and skills.
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>>101755894
Superhuman luck (whether positive or negative) is a pretty big theme in mythology, and anything that could be considered a "hero story" in general.

Luck, fate, plot armor, protagonist power, call it what you want at the end of the day it's all basically the same, and most heroes had it in spades.
>>
>>101757547
He's a jack of all trades, master of none. Even with Rin as a master he was pretty weak. Saber with Rin as a master would have powered through every Servant (except Gil) with no problems.
>>
>>101753675
How to win with Hassan, Kiritsugu style:
>make everyone think Irisviel is the master and have whichever Hassan is best at fighting wear a disguise and act like a saber or something.
>Use normal information network of birds with cameras to find out what servants others have while utilizing Hassan to help find anyone who's hiding(Berser-car).
>If confronted by Lancer-man or another master shoot his master or use another Hassan to kill him(Ideally shoot him so no one watching finds out you have 2 or more assassins).
>If there are two servants fighting either shoot both masters at once with Maiya or use Hassan to kill them(Again ideally shoot them).
>To beat Tokiumi have a few of your Hassans wait near his villa the entire time then when/if Gilgamesh leaves have them kill him.
>To beat Waver Velvet-kun have Maiya try to snipe him from the opposite direction of whichever side of him you're on. If he takes the bait and leaves Waver shoot him or get a Hassan to kill him. If he doesn't then you can get all your Hassans to use anti-material rifles along with Maiya from all directions to take Waver out. If that doesn't work a very large bomb might.
Rider is the only real problem here since he never leaves Waver. He'll still get owned if he fights someone else though.
>>
>>101757690
Like I said, his strength has nothing to do with what I said. His experience and his compatibility with the urban secret warfare are what make him so good.

And calling him weak is pretty funny when if he doesn't get steamrolled by Saber he proceeds to completely off rail the grail war.
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>>101757921

You let Gilgamesh kill Rider simple
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>>101757690
Archer was skillful enough that the will of humanity wanted to make a contract with him.

And back when Archer was alive, he survived a contact with an enemy wielding Odin's spear.
>>
>>101758004
It's better to just kill Tokiumi and Waver if Gilgamesh and Rider fight though.
Gilgamesh doesn't care about Tokiumi to notice and Rider would be too focused on Gilgamesh to react in time.
Tokiumi probably wouldn't attack Waver since Gilgamesh would want to fight Rider honorably.
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>>101758246

Gilgy has independent action though. If he determines where you are he'd come kill you out of spite for ruining his fight, and there's nothing you could do about it.
>>
>>101757690
A large point of the contest is that no matter the stats or abilities you might possess there's no such thing as an absolute victor, as even Gilgamesh tends to lose often. Saber despite having great stats tends to lose out due to her rashness at times (Pretty much loses out any time she thinks herself the top dog, but if she's underdog she does well), and Rin tends to come with the benefit of always fucking up at the worst possible moment as a master.

Even with nice stats she'll lose out to a clever plan, a dangerous NP, and she stated clearly that even in her peak power Berserker would be a real threat either way.

Of the people in the war offhand Lancer, Caster in her base/fortress, Gilgamesh, and Rider with proper master will give her a hard time even with Rin as her master.
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>>101756242
they too OP, they can probably just spawn the real grail and be done
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>>101758379

How long would Gilgamesh last without a master anyway? until he runs out of mana?
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>>101758465
Forever.
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>>101758465
See>>101757245

Only mongrels NEED masters.
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>>101758465

If I remember right, he'll vanish when he runs out of mana, but his Independent Action is so high he can stay as long as he likes if he DOES suck mana.
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>>101758379
that's why you'd wait until just after Rider died then use only one of your Hasans from a distance.
It is ideal to leave him to last while he's fighting someone because of his independent bullshit though since then you just get transported to the grail.
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>>101758569

Sorry master is the wrong word to use for Gilgamesh, what about contractor or summoner instead?

>>101758577

This reply makes the most sense so I'll go along this one
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>>101758465
Forever potentially, as long as he conserved his mana. He wouldn't be able to bust out the big guns without one though (unless he was going for a murder-suicide I guess), so his threat level goes down significantly when masterless.
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>>101758748

Who exactly in the current timeline in Fate would he need to use EA on anyway? maybe some of the 27DDA?
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>>101758465
Zero - About a week, couple days at least

FSN - As long as he wants, only needs mana if he needs to use NP, since he's now basically human

CCC - Literally forever
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>>101757921
If you do a trick with multiple assassins you may be able to distract Rider by having one assassin "fail" to kill Waver and then have another couple kill Waver with ranged attack while Rider deals with the bait
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>>101759097
>Zero - About a week, couple days at least

Where did your estimate for this come from?, A+ gives no number on how long he could last without a master
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>>101759325
>A: Can remain in this world for a week even after losing his Master. However, to use Noble Phantasms of great prana consumption, back up from the Master is necessary.
>>
>>101759097
C class independent action gives you a couple of days.
>>
>>101759325
He has A rank before being showered with Angya

>A+: Servant can remain in this world indefinitely even without a Master. However, in order to activate his Noble Phantasm, it is necessary to first acquire an extra supply of prana from alternative sources.
>A: Can remain in this world for a week even after losing his Master. However, to use Noble Phantasms of great prana consumption, back up from the Master is necessary.
> B: Capable of remaining in this world for two days without an established contract. Also capable of living on for a short period of time after suffering extensive damage on his spiritual core.
> C: Capable of remaining in this world for one day without an established contract.
>E-: Materialization is possible for 30 turns.
>>
>>101758977
I think ORT is the only thing that he'd ever have to bust out Ea for.
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>>101759246
I thought about that but whatever assassin you send will probably be killed instantly and Rider will probably be on his guard if you do that.
The best option is still to either kill Waver while Rider's fighting or to try to lure him from far away or attack Waver suddenly from every direction possible at the same time.
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>>101759560
>Also capable of living on for a short period of time after suffering extensive damage on his spiritual core.
Literally added because people had trouble believing what a massive pair EMIYA had.
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>>101759604
>waver look its that paper you wrote in class with a gold star on it come over here away from the big burly hunk of man-meat who protects you
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>>101759604
This is before Rider knows there are multiple assassins. Send one to lure away Rider. Right before or just after he gets killed Riders guard will be down because assassin is now dead. Then you spring the trap and kill Waver. They can flick rocks hard enough to shatter gems, I can see that killing someone if it hits the head.
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>>101759560
How long is '30 turns'?
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>>101759560
Also of note, he has EX Independent Action in CCC

It's noted he spent a near infinite amount of time in the Far Side of the Mooncell before coming across MC, he just made a bed and slept in the malignant data all that time. It's the reason his skills had all rusted and degraded for the sake of the plot, since he just spent potentially millions of years asleep.
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>>101759989
Pretty fucking long in terms of Extra.
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>>101759989
Only Nasu really knows the exact increment, but certain NP work on the note of turns like it was an RPG.
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>>101759989
Nero's NP stays around for only three turns, so it could be awhile potentially.
>>
Because the Einzberns are cheaters and Gil uses hax
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Also of note

>Narita: Here it is, the deployment of the King's Army at the midpoint of the War! Using an army of tens of thousands to crush less than a hundred Assassins is too much of an over-kill (laughs).
>Haganeya: There were way too many people. It was great that so many showed up, but most of them went home without doing anything (laughs).
>Nasu: The scary part is, some heroes in this army were stronger than the summoner Rider himself. Although Rider's deeds were great, it was not a testament of his personal martial prowess.
>Sanda: So do they have basic Skills and Noble Phantasm as Servants?
>Nasu: No, since they were summoned via Rider's skill, it was not necessary to assign them Class based on the rules of the Holy Grail War. However, since there is a limit to Rider's abilities, their Noble Phantasms could not be materialized. If Iskander's army of tens of thousands could pair up with Gilgamesh, who had unlimited Noble Phantasms, the result would be most ideal.
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Gilgamesh is a shitty person and a failure of a Servant-Andersen
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>>101759816
I wouldn't think someone like Rider would leave Waver to fight Assassin.
Furthermore you'd think he'd be on guard for Assassins master or other servants that might be nearby after he kills Assassin.
>>
>>101760338
Didn't Gil pretty much admit that he was a failure as a Servant and that he didn't care?

And I still haven't found a translation of what he says to Archer.
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>>101759816
Rider thought Assassin was dead before coming to Caster's lair, but even then he still didn't fall for Hassan's bullshit and realized their plan before they could ambush Waver in the dark.

Even when he had no idea their identity or that they still existed he still knew the danger of that situation before it reared it's head, he's far more careful than he lets on here. Even if an Assassin attacked Waver he would not be so careless to chase after it so something else could kill him in the meantime, rather he would protect Waver and get him out of there most likely.
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>>101760537
Gilgamesh agreed with Anderson, since Anderson is basically Dio Kotomine, and whatever Anderson says is pretty much true when you get down to it. It's stated that basically all of his observations are in the end correct, since he has a skill that makes him great at observing people.

He calls Emiya a former eroge lead
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>>101760695
>He calls Emiya a former eroge lead
2meta4me
>>
>>101760695
What if Araki was a Caster?
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Life must be tough for these guys after being fired from Apocrypha
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>>101760695
>Human Observation
>Andersen's personal skill. Rank A.
>The skill to observe and understand people. It is not simply observing but also hypothesizing the livelihoods and preferences, all the way to their life, of people he may not even known the names of. This requires a tremendous memory that does not forget easily.
>Though Andersen is known as a pessimist, the lies at its foundation is not rejection but understanding. The only thing he can do is spin stories, but it is for that reason that he continued to swear that only with what he speaks of will he be more sincere than anyone else.
>Though he criticizes the way BB and the Alter Egos go about love as "unsightly," "in bad taste," and "conceited," at every opportunity, underneath that is a profound understanding and identification, as well as a reprimand. It goes without saying that most of the abusive language he spills onto them is not to completely deny them but to serve candid advice filled with warnings.
>...Well, that he hates woman is also an unchangeable truth.
>>
Such a nice guy

>Item Creation [C]
>The ability to construct various implements through magecraft. While he does not know magecraft, by putting his Noble Phantasm to practical use, it seems he can more or less produce what can be found in his literary works.
>It appears his specialty item is "a love letter that conveys your feelings, 100%," but considering Andersen's own experience with love, that doesn't seem likely, but even if it is, it's impossible to request.
>Again, when he was alive, he had a strange habit:
>"Isn't it possible for me to be mistaken for dead when I'm sleeping and be buried?"
was his fear and it is said that he was so overwhelmed with anxiety that he always had a note with, "I am not dead," written on it on his body

>The Three Great Authors
>The great writers of fairy tales whose names reverberate throughout the world... Grimm, Aesop, Andersen... >He is one of them, but he is the only one among them who wrote original works.
>Compared to the others, who were editors and collectors who compiled folklore, legends, and the like, he is the only one who, by producing new stories, was an "author" in the truest sense of the word.
>His masterpieces include: "The Little Match Girl," "The Little Mermaid," "The Emperor's New Clothes," "The Snow Queen," and "The Ugly Duckling," as well as others.
>Also, it is said that the model for the "girl" in the "The Little Match Girl" was Andersen's mother, who worked without pause in order to send Andersen to higher-level schooling and left the world while poor and having never once experienced pleasure
>>
You kids are fucking nerds
>>
>>101761645
If Aesop was considered special enough to be a Servant, what about Homer or Euripides?
>>
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>>101761369
It was for better.
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>>101761839
Aesop might not have been, as it's noted that among them only Anderson wrote original works.

Still though, if you have a legend then you might get in just fine.
>>
>>101761797
T-thanks
>>
>>101761907
>better
>almost half naked prostitute killers
>better
>>
>>101748374
He would be OP as shit, but then again you might wanna waste a few Command Spells after the summoning, just to be sure.
>>
>>101761645
>Three Great Authors
>Nasu also has Three Great Philosophers as servants
>Socrates' NP is a big ass cup of hemlock
>Diogenes' is a big jar; I don't know what he does with it but it has an instant kill against Iskander
>Nietzsche's makes the Holy Grail irrelevant to you and all of the others and bestows fedoras upon all who listen to him
>>
>>101762009
That wasn't a compliment dork
>>
>>101762270
Y-You too
>>
>>101762161
I doubt command spell would stop his ass from betraying or ensuring you'll get killed.
>>
>>101759568
GiIl couldn't take ORT though, even with EA. Hell, even primate murder is probably stronger than Gill.
>>
>>101739507
Because bad writing.
>>
>>101767058
>Because bad translation

ftfy
>>
If Nasu becomes a heroic spirit, what Noble Phamtasm would he get?
>>
>>101767416
Seafood.
>>
>>101767416
Nasu and Urobuchi already listed their NPs with F/Z

>Questions 9: Why is my luck stat curiously low... it seems even lower than when I fell to the dark side 10 years later. What kind of curse is this? [ Fuyuki · King of Knights ]
>Nasu: In Zero, due to the effect of Urobuchi Gen's Reality Marble, Dead End Catharsis: Heaven and Hell Drop, all character's luck have been lowered by one rank.
>Uro: But at the same time Kinoko Dimension also took place in Fuyuki, so those who can survive will definitely live. Something this reasonable happens very rarely in Urobuchi's world, so it's already a very considerate measure.

>>101767481
That's TakaJun's NP
>>
>>101753253
>Robin Hood is just a plain good servant, the only issue is the lack presence concealment, but that didn't stop him from sneaking around in the game so maybe he doesn't need it

Nigga, I want the REAL Robin Hood, not some lame wannabe knockoff. We got fucking ripped in EXTRA. I love his design for Robin Hood, to bad it got wasted on such a shit character.
>>
Origin Form seems interesting

>Sesshouin Kiara:
>Even though you were flung to the edge of the galaxy......!
>Even if this is a conceptual space, you shouldn't have been able to cross that distance in an instant!
>Are you able to fly faster than light?

>Caster:
>Of course, I came flying faster than light!
>At any rate, I won't let my master by seduced by a demon in this critical moment.

>The reversal of time is nothing special as well, just reduce to zero the distance from the Horsehead Nebula to this galaxy.
>This is called zero distance love!
>>
>>101772042

What does the other servants use?
>>
>>101771906
It's mainly just that Robin Hood in Extra was gimped by several different factors. His master, his greatest skill allows him to cut away 60% of the opponents power before they ever reach him, can't use his NP, was given a penalty right before the fight which effected his stats, and just general aptitude.

He was still Robin Hood, but he was one of many that took up the name during that time period as he fought against the nobles. Really he was gimped as shit in Extra yet still did that well, it's a testament in a way.
>>
>>101759989
Since the Class Cards are heavily DnD inspired...

>In D&D (Moldvay 1981 Basic rules) turns are 10 minutes each, used for normal adventuring time. When an encounter occurs, time shifts to rounds (10 seconds each). This means 60 rounds equates to one normal turn.

So 300 minutes aka 5 hours
>>
>>101772161
Still looking it up, but here's the reason for Archer's gaybar jacket.

>Answer: Follow up with, “It looks really good on you.”
>Archer: O-oh. It looks good…? Really?
>W-well, you saying that makes me feel better about it…
>…It seems I’ll have to reconsider this outfit. Yeah… Now that I think about it, it’s not so bad. The truth is, I always wanted to wear this kind clothing.
>This is from when I was alive, but a female acquaintance of mine told me, “Rock style doesn’t suit you, so knock it off, seriously.”
>Ever since then, I’ve avoided these kinds of clothes. But, I see, I look good in it… Mm, I kind of want to show off even more skin now…
>>
>>101760315
Rider's NP is basically a UBW of people. If you swear loyality to him at any time then you are forever summonable under Ionian Hetairoi, hence the appearance of adult Waver.
>>
>>101772298
That wasn't adult Waver.

Most people with a brain see that it is far more likely Eumunes we saw rather than Waver.

Also, quit claiming Rider's NP is UBW when it isn't close to being anything like UBW.

Rider can't clone the same person as many times as he wants nor turn them into self destruct bombs.
>>
>>101739507
No Saber has finished outside of the top 3. So, people now figure getting Saber means you'll be in the running at the end. Hence best class.
>>
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>>101767542
>In Zero, due to the effect of Urobuchi Gen's Reality Marble, Dead End Catharsis: Heaven and Hell Drop, all character's luck have been lowered by one rank.
>>
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>>101772298
>adult Waver.
>People seriously think that person in IH was Adult Waver
>>
>>101772298
Waver was in IH, but the guy we saw up front was not him.
>>
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>>101772242
>“Rock style doesn’t suit you, so knock it off, seriously.”

I can hear her saying it now.
>>
>>101767542
Oh, oh I wanna know Takeuchi's NP!
>>
>>101772435
>Rider can't clone the same person as many times as he wants nor turn them into self destruct bombs.

It's not literally UBW, silly goose.

It's like UBW in the sense that it's a record of loyalist as opposed to a record of weapons.
>>
>>101772564
>Waver was in IH

You have no proof that Waver is in there at all really
>>
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>>101772435
>Most people with a brain see that it is far more likely Eumunes we saw rather than Waver.

Sure thing, buddy.
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>>101772724
Newfag detected.

Posting that picture just makes your argument weaker unless you wanna claim Waver is brown and has no nose.
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>>101772724

You do know what you are doing right now, right?
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>>101757011
>BT guys t
Who?
>>
>>101772881
BT = baka tsuki.
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>>101772690
It's stated plainly that whoever swears loyalty to him will join his ranks even outside of time and space, as that is why he tried to get Saber to join his army, and it's noted that Francis Drake might even be among the party. If he could not add Saber to his ranks then getting her on his side would be a bit meaningless in the long run.

Waver gave his oath at the end of eternal loyalty, that's reason enough to believe he would be forever tied to them outside of space and time.

>“From this day until the end of time, the servant would be guided by the figure of the King, and the servant would remain loyal to that memory. In the face of the oath, even separation was meaningless; under the command of Alexander, the bond formed between King and servant was eternal and beyond time.”
>"He had been rewarded with more than words of praise . The grandest King in the world had recognized him. He was told that he would be added into the ranks of the servants. "
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>>101773030

Random question then at what age would Waver appear in IH? at the height of his abilities? or undetermined?
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>>101773030
>and it's noted that Francis Drake might even be among the party.

[citation needed[]
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>>101773030
>>101773268
>Francis Drake might even be among the party

I'd also like Citation on this if possible
>>
>Unlimited Blade Works

>Rank: E- ~ A++
>Type: Anti-Unit
>Range: 30 ~ 66
>Maximum number of targets: ???

>EX Rank Noble Phantasms are in principle impossible to replicate. (However, in the circumstance where the support of the original owner exists, replication becomes possible.

I guess it notable enough to put that designation at that bottom, but it leads one to wonder if that's primarily just for Avalon or in general with the way it's phrased.
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>>101773950
>Range: 30 ~ 66
Of what? Meters? Feet? Clicks?
>>
Excert on Robin Hood

>Creator's comment - Character Design & Supervisor: Takeuchi Takashi
>He’s a bit of like a comic actor or maybe an army man who has a injured face so, but I don’t have to explain to much because of the number of characters in the game.
>That’s why it’s this character. At first sight, looks delicate but in case of emergency, he can actually be pretty strong. that style is very common from “Hokuto no Ken” (Fist of the North Star). He’s a disparage but he is not base. That balance is important.
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>>101774182
Only Nasu knows
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Nasu says some odd things on occasion

>奈須: レオは女の子にすべきでした。
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>>101774182
Squares
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>>101774602
>奈須: レオは女の子にすべきでした。
Please no. Genderbend was a neat twist for Arturia, but it absolutely frustrates me that it's become a thing that the franchise leans on.
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>>101774893
B-but it's cuter!



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