This is the most accurate alignment chart for F/SN servants, prove me wrong /a/.
Rin is just there as a placeholder because there is no neutral good servant in my eyes.
He's a neutral character.
What about the official alignments?
Lancer is not a character that's totally devoid of honour, but he allies himself with an evil master for most of the story and uses a cursed weapon.
They are retarded and wrong.
switch archer and berserker, lancer and assassin
The official alignments are tailor-made to fit the Fate series, I think that it's better to use the standard framework.
Switch Lancer and Rider and you might have something.
>allies himself with an evil master
>implying he has any choice
>uses a cursed weapon
>implying that's bad
Gil is canonically Chaotic Good.
IIRC Gilgamesh is chaotic good .
I can't call Berserker evil because he has no free will of his own, he isn't governed by order and doesn't discriminate when it comes to picking fights, but he is not an evil character in his own right.
Do you not understand how command spells work? And what does having a cursed weapon have to do with anything? Just face it, your little chart is retarded and you probably didn't even play the VN.
Gil killed a bunch of orphans to maintain his body. He's incredibly evil.
No, they were still alive.
Nasuverse wise his intentions are good and beneficial.
But he wants to kill the entire world except himself.
No, they are still alive. Also, Kotomine was the one that did that.
In during "hurr durr Gilgamesh is convinced that he makes the rules so as long as he follows his rules that means he's good"
As in without him F/SN would suck and wouldn't sell?
Yeah, I can see why he's good. It also explains Rider's evil alignment.
>to kill the entire world
Not really. He just wants to enhance the quality of humanity by reducing its number and leaving the "worthy" ones alive.
That is lawful evil.
Kotomine did nothing wrong.
So basically, Gil's ideal world is just him, Saber and F/Z Rider.
This list is hilariously bad, putting aside Gilgamesh for the moment, Lancer, Assassin and Archer are all wrong
And D&D wise, it's action not intention that determines your alignment. Or else Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin would all be good.
They were basically living corpses. It was a state worse than death. He's a fucking monster.
I doubt he's that picky when it comes to mortal beings.
Anyway AngraManjew would have never gotten to the point of destroying the world even if unleashed.
>His alignment is Chaotic Good.
>A cold-blooded tyrant, and a hero who had sought and enjoyed all manners of treasures and pleasures.
>Though capricious and temperamental, he does not (generally) kill someone simply because he is in a foul temper.
>When he kills a person, it is either because that someone’s soul is abominable, or because that person has become an enemy of his.
>King and sentencer who weighs both good and evil equally.
>To him, a life is only “that which will die this moment” or “that which will one day die.”
>A being who is recognized by Gilgamesh as “a life that must die this moment” will be slain, even if a sage.
>“So in the end it has nothing to do with rules or conditions and just depends on what he feels like that day?!”
>This kind of reaction is understandable, but that is what a king is.
>Whether astute judgment synonymous to the truth of the universe,
>or misrule during a drunken stupor,
>if he is the one to implement it, it would become the indisputable adjudication of the king.
>Such is the absolute sovereign.
>Though some see him as similar to Iskandar in their egocentricity, the greatest difference between the two is that Gilgamesh has no need of vassals.
>Gilgamesh is a king who, from start to end, reigns by means of only “himself.” What he loves are “treasures” and “tools,” while a “person” is no more than that which must one day perish.
>……No matter how worthy of love he may acknowledge that to be.
>Considering CCC’s themes, women’s issues can’t be avoided. Gil’s type is a “noble maiden.” (Ko-Gil’s is a “wildflower.”)
>He dislikes women who are dependent on men and yet would make use of men. In other words, he dislikes “womanlike” women.
>Anything but True Neutral
Archer, not gil. Archer fits Chaotic Neutral better than Berserker.
Lancer and Sasaki need to be swapped around, Lancer rebels against the master that forces him to do his bidding when he fights Gilgamesh knowing that he will fail. Sasaki isn't a bad person, but in all three routes, he only plays the role of an antagonist.
Just because you're an antagonist doesn't make you evil. Fake Assassin was not evil in anyway.
People that think Gil is just "Bwahah, kill everyone for the sake of it" just don't get him. He is chaotic good, he does love and protect humans, but in order to protect them it isn't just a matter of saving their lives but also playing North Wind and testing them, and the dead kids thing was Kotomine rather than Gilgamesh.
I'd take the official chart over most of this list
>Fights gil knowing he will fail
Not him but I doubt anyone fights Gil thinking they're guaranteed to win, especially when they have a command seal stopping them from doing so and no support from their master
Being an antagonist doesn't make you evil category
Neutral is about living by your code somewhat, Good is about living by societies code, and evil is by living by yet another sort of code I forget typically. Sasaki to the end was nothing but neutral, the guy just lived by his own code.
That's retarded. In the myth, the entire basis for telling Gilgamesh's story is his relationship with Enkidu and the despair it caused him to loose him. So in the end, isn't Gil just like some fat chick gorging herself on chocolate because she will never have the one thing he really wants.
That's law and chaos.
Good and evil are different
Rider isn't neutral.
Medea is far from neutral.
Gil isn't actually evil.
Fake Assassin has no interest in the grail and no stake in the story, he doesn't actively seek out and attack other servants/masters and always treats them to a fair fight. He's a true neutral for sure.
He fucking knew it was happening and accepted the mana/prana/whatever. I don't know what you're definition of evil is, but even if he didn't do it himself, we was complicit by accepting it.
She nearly came at the thought of gouging out Shirou's eyes
Where the fuck did you even get the idea that she's not a psycho bitch? She likes Sakura for a reason.
Ko-Gil confirmed for best bro and wife.
Doesn't Gil fit in the lawful evil category? He is governed by his own codes and rules, they just don't fit with other people's conventions.
>he doesn't actively seek out and attack other servants/masters
Because he can't, he's bound to the temple i think at one stage he points out how annoyed he is by this because he can't go and fight people
>always treats them to a fair fight
According to Nasu him medea and Souchirou triple teamed berserker
Gotta break some eggs to make an omelet.
In this case, steal prana from humans to save the world.
Fuck off /v/
>This is the most accurate alignment chart for F/SN servants, prove me wrong /a/.
Considering Toesucka isn't a servant, I'd say you're pretty wrong
She's not some psycho bitch even if you want to interpret scenes wrong on purpose. She's a pragmatist who will go against even the world itself in order to protect her own wishes, kind of like Homura. She is committed to and protects Sakura because at their core they are the same, and Medusa also went through something like becoming Shadow in the past. Even if the entire world turned against Sakura she would protect her unto the end, and even if she would destroy the world one day. Unless Sakura herself desired death, in which case she would grant it.
She's directly noted to be pragmatic and everything there, but she empathizes with the girl who is the same as herself.
I'm glad I never played D&D because if good is about living by society's code, the Nazi's were all good.
Good=the golden rule (do unto others as you would have done unto you) or at least silver (do not do unto others as you would not have done unto you).
I saw that as half bluster myself
Where muh lawful evil bros at
And by save the world, that means killing off everyone but himself?
He's fucking evil unless you're some kind of a Randroid.
Yeah, I'm not going to bother having this discussion anymore.
and yet Gil took it seriously
>that means killing off everyone but himself?
Did you even read F/SN? He doesn't want to kill everyone. If humanity continues at its current rate, we hit the disaster that happened in Notes and is happening in EXTRA.
I'd take it seriously too.
But logically, Archer still doesn't stand a chance against serious Gil. Archer bluffs a lot as part of his gameplan, like when he talked about Excalibur.
But that's kind of true. He did see the Red guy as a threat. Not Shirou though.
Yeah, I'm sure you've got to reread Fountainhead for the 4th or 5th time, so I'll just leave you to it.
Alignments are stupid anyway. It's impossible to classify a complex character with just that, and then there's arguing that lawful may not be lawful because he follows his own laws, even though that would suggest him being chaotic etc. etd. /tg/ always argues about this shit.
This system is flawed and only makes sense for describing shallow D&D characters.
>No actual counter argument
I'll just take that as a concession on your part. Goodbye~
>didn't read the VN
>doesn't even read this same thread
Yeah, don't bother and go away.
SHITTY ONE DIMENSIONAL CHARACTER TIER
True neutral a shit, Chaotic Evil is where it's at
Honor is a lawful kinda thing, and honor was fake assassin's only personality trait, basically.
Not kill everyone, he expected that there would be people strong enough to overcome this and be all the greater for it. Those who survived would be the cream of the crop, but after seeing all of mankind's hatred at itself at the end of Zero and going around for ten years seeing people with a lack of purpose or drive in life he just knew he had to do something to put some life back in them. So he just organized a small tragedy to make those who survived far stronger in his eyes, and if it really killed them all then that only means they were all utterly weak as even he had survived against the same thing (Shirou and Sakura did as well).
When confronted with an entirely different situation in another game he found a human so utterly foolish that it actually renewed his faith in humanity he sort of reversed his stance a bit and would fight something far greater than all the evils in the world in order to show the world itself that you may not touch what he has deemed as under his protection. Which is kind of like his stance in HF; only he may test his mongrels, but should anything outside of humanity put them in danger he will strike it down with his full force. Basically we see different sides of him in every route, and in UBW he's concerned about humanities lack of will or drive, and he figures the only way to fix it is to give them something to reinvigorate them almost Watchmen style.
> neutral evil
> not best aligment
It's like true neutral, only you're not a passive faggot.
You're stupid. Never come here again.
>When confronted with an entirely different situation in another game he found a human so utterly foolish
Are you referring to the MC/FeMC? Because he comes to like them for their resolve and strong will, not because of their foolishness.
-put Lancer in Rin's place
-put Hassan in Lawful Evil
-switch Sasaki and Rider
I don't know, if you think this
Isn't some kind of libertarian euphemism for a universal holocaust of all but the strongest most talented and actually a vision of a good and just person, then I think I can't think of a term for you other than Randroid. Teabagger maybe?
Lawful Good characters can make for interesting characters. I thought that Keldorn, the paladin in Baldur's Gate 2 was a good character.
Just because some idiots present them as Lawful Stupid doesn't mean they're inherently bad.
Because nothing says "lawful" like plotting to kill an entire school's worth of children.
I agree with you if this is for fiction but when you play dnd this hierarchy is flipped upside down. Lawful good is by far the most intreasting to play as because it's based around thinking outside the box.
>then I think I can't think of a term for you other than Randroid. Teabagger maybe?
Who the hell says this is close to what I believe in, but if you can't understand the characters and why he's Chaotic Good in his own universe rather than Chaotic Evil because he's just "Gotta kill everyone" from your standpoint then that's on you.
Though it's noted that since he's in incarnated human in FSN which means his decisions do tend to be quite a bit more rash as his human blood has come to the surface, and thus his ideals tend to match present day humans more. Because present day humans hate themselves he'll respond to that desire.
I never argued that he was good and just. All I said is that you clearly don't understand what he was trying to do and that he isn't chaotic evil like you seem to think.
This is Ko-Gil.
That's more of a good/evil thing.
Lawful/chaotic would depend in how it's plotted or why it is done.
From a roleplaying/writing standpoint, making the "one dimensional" alignments interesting is a lot of the fun.
Not exactly. In one bad ending where Sakura is willing to let Shirou kill her, Rider kills Shirou before he can do it.
> find a way to make a character with a stereotype heavy alignment not a stereotype
> THAT ONE GUY keeps on whining you're not role playing correctly because you're not playing the stereotype
She stated herself that she'd kill Sakura if Sakura directly asked for it, but if Shirou is just going to kill her in her sleep then she'll respond by protecting her, even if she can infer that she wants to die. Rider will go against Sakura at times like when she tried to drain Rin in the school to save her, but she would still do as she asked as long as it's a direct command.
Basically a neutral evil character with a waifu.
What a qt3.142
Not a waifu, rather Rider's tend to be bros, but in this case she'll be yo bro even if the world and even you yourself won't stand by you because you were once the same.
When Medusa went Gorgon she ended up killing hundreds and her own sisters, and the reason she was killed in Nasuland is because when Perseus held up the mirror out of fear she in an instant saw just what she had become there, realized every sickening thing she had wrought, and was paralyzed by her own realization long enough for Perseus to take advantage of that moment and cut her head off.
Looking in that mirror she could only see her own inhuman form as the last vertage of her humanity came to the surface. Thus for Sakura who endured the same torture in silence Rider resolved herself to see this girl through this, and to be there for her like someone could have been there for her.
I never said he was chaotic evil, I just said he was fucking evil. His vision is an evil vision. If you don't believe there is such a thing as evil, that's another thing, but if there is such a thing as evil, the desire to make implement Social Darwinism on a huge scale is it.
>Rider's tend to be bros
Riders tend to be best bros.
Rider is better as a waifu than a bro. Iskander is best bro.
Sorry to be off-topic here, but since alignments tie into /tg/ territory and I'm afraid of posting this there, I have a question for you guys.
Have you ever played a game where someone played a secretly lawful evil character who betrays their party and becomes a villain? I'm honestly curious because I want to try it out some time in the future.
Sounds like a bad idea to me. Players tend to get attached to their characters, so if you betray and kill the rest of the party it might lead to some hard feelings.
>I'm afraid of posting /tg/ stuff in /tg/
What's wrong? Are these questions the equivalent of reccomendations?
All Riders are bros, that's the rule
I honestly don't know, that's why I'm afraid. I don't go to /tg/ really.
Of course, I'd want the good guys to win. I wouldn't kill them right on the spot and I'd work with the GM to make it fair for them.
Why do I keep forgetting that Rin's niece has a money fetish?
say what, nigga?
>Chaotic Good winning by far
We all agree then.
So basically if Shirou had held a mirror in front of Shadow HF would have been over way faster
>triple teamed berserker
Sakura was asleep when Shadow was awake primarily, but the last few times Shadow was awake and eating people Sakura woke up halfway through and thought "Ahh, this strange dream again.. what is this anyway?". Agnya still controlled the body in those times as Sakura was only a bit away and just watching from the corner, but she thought they were just strange dreams at the time
Only thing directly stated is Medea kept Berserker slow with gravity magic and Sasaki kept pushing him away until he gave up.
>IM GOING TO JUST RANDOMLY ASSIGN THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE I HAVE TO SHOEHORN ONE CHARACTER INTO EVERY CATEGORY
>DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY ALL HAVE CANON ALIGNMENTS
>MY OPINION > CREATOR'S CANON
Fateshitters are cancer.
>filthy secondaries forcing their shit on people
Literally worse than hitler.
>until he gave up
Or more likely Illya got bored
Lancer isn't Evil; He's a knight who betrays Kirei in all sccenarios and believes in chivalry
Gilgamesh isn't Chaotic; His actions are clearly motivated by greed and pride.
Rider is Evil; Medusa is defined as an anti-hero in all scenarios
Gil's law as a king is whatever he feels like at the moment. If that isn't chaotic I don't know what is.
Gil should be True Neutral
He is nor good nor evil
He is nor chaotic nor lawful (he is the law lol)
And he is True, just the word True already makes the alignment reserved for him
Nasu's reasons for his alignment are up here
He doesn't make shit up on the fly. He truly believes that the world rightfully belongs to him, which is the motivations behind everything he does.
If he was Chaotic Evil, he would be comparable to Zero Caster who chooses his methods just based on what he thinks is the most amusing at the time.
>Nasu describes Gilgamesh as a coldblooded but just tyrant
That's the description of a Lawful Neutral character.
>He truly believes that the world rightfully belongs to him
Which it does.
>muh shitty opinion
author trumps you no matter what because he fucking writes the thing so kill yourself
Lawful characters have ethical principles and codes of conduct and a lawful ruler would follow them. The CCC description shows that anything Gil says, even if it's a mistake while he's drunk, is a binding law.
People always get this wrong, Angra doesn't take over her body. She and the Shadow were becoming one as the Servants died. If she was actually walking at night all the time, she would he wet, or dirty, or have a lot of blood on her clothes.
Hell for the longest time people thought that Sakura chomped off his arm when any moron who reads the scene knows she had her consciousness in Rider using her vision for that battle and watched in horror, as he got in the way of the blast by putting his arm up at the wrong time. Mainly, it was an accident. They took her reaction out of context after that scene as wanting him to be hurt.
The very reason Rider is loyal to Sakura is shown in full in Hollow, because Sakura endured her fate with a smile, she even tells Shirou this in the backyard after they get back from the forest. There may be some bitterness and pain in her heart, but Sakura held onto hope in the depths of her heart all those years. That is why Medusa loved her.
I don't know if that necessarily qualifies him as "Good", but that might rule him out for Lawful depending on the frequency of his drunk escapades.
Nah son, he was just the first King, not the King of everything. Even in his time his claim to owning the world was tenuous at best.
Plus his only claim to owning the world came from a bunch of Gods that are now dead and an outdated moral code society abandoned, he's just mad that its no longer recognized by people.
(if you're referring to GoB, then that's just a case of the majority of noble phantasms having existed in his treasury at some point/his legend giving him access to even more - more modern ones aren't even in it at all)
>more modern ones aren't even in it at all
>If she was actually walking at night all the time, she would he wet, or dirty, or have a lot of blood on her clothes.
What happened when Gilgamesh cut shadow apart again, and what was inside of it? Angya lived as her latent desire that no man can control any more than they can control every thought in their mind, but it was physically her it turns out. Sakura did not wish harm upon anyone, especially Shirou, but for any human bad thoughts come and go, and for those small desires and evil feelings Angya lives. The reason Angya attacked Rin repeatedly is because of Sakura's bitterness towards her at times, but Sakura would never conscientiously wish harm or pain upon Rin in such a way. Angya just takes those small twisted desires that exist within all and creates the result even if the person wouldn't act upon it.
Yup and that's why in side materials he displays a desire to add ones possessed by modern day magi/younger servants to his collection. Because he already has them.
Don't know why anyone would think Medusa isn't a bro, she is like one of two Servants who, like her master, is a helpful part of the household. She also is one of two Servants who went actually got off their ass and got a goddamn job instead of playing NEET. Bro enough for me.
Its stated in the VN he doesn't possess original ones made by humans of the modern day(though how far back that time period extends is not known), ones made by extraterrestrial entities or very rare exceptions such as Excalibur and Karna's stuff in apocrypha.
Because those items were created by non-human entities.
Gate of Bablyon may not have Noble Phantasms from beyond his era, but Gil still considers them as inferior reproductions of the ones in his vault.
You need to pay attention a bit more. It was a clue to the player when the dreams she had became more vivid and less "scary" that the two were merging. It wasn't her latent desires, it was the id that was attached to a familiar.
Plus, Lancer stabbed the Shadow and went right through it when it was in the lake near Ryuudo Temple, and it was obvious that it had stages where it was like a spirit, running around, and didn't have a solid form. Besides, as I said in the other post, she was separate from her body when the incident in the forest happened. And Herc repeatedly cut up the Shadow trying to get the mud off himself. If she was physically there, she would have injuries. Until she actually accepted it as part of herself way late in the game, the regen was not powerful, and could not regenrate clothes, thus, your theory is wrong. Just as she can see through her familiar, Rider's eyes, she can see the Shadow. Late in the route when she is pretty much the grail and has a lot of spirits, the connection between her and AM is strongest, so they become one body, which is why she was hurt by Gil.
People usually forget that there were no deaths of townspeople before the end of day 10. Kirei already explained that as she became the grail, she would also in body, become the Shadow.
Where was that stated in the VN?
Regardless, Nasu redacted GoB in CCC.
Not the same poster, but it is stated in CCC.
Some people for whatever reason like to take the quote to mean "No, he has everything" but the updated change in CCC means he doesn't have things created by another heavenly body, things from a new brand of humanity, and etc. However as a cheat he still has shit from present day humanity because "in a sense" because humanities desires have not changed since the old days, and thus of course they had planes back then.
True, Sakura and Rider do contribute heavily to the Emiya residence. Most don't know, but Sakura actually splits the grocery bill with Shirou.
Also even in the VN itself he's stated to only have the origin of shit rather than all shit in creation. However this is only further supported by CCC.
I don't doubt Gilgamesh not possessing items that weren't man-made, like Avalon. Only Gil lacking things that were created by modern humans.
You just stuck shit just to fill up space.
In Ataraxia he admires a fishing reel Archer had when they were both trying to piss off Lancer, and he bet Archer over that item if he won the fishing contest while Archer potentially wanted one of Gilgamesh's rods.
Even if you throw out this example because "Comedy game" there are other instances and the whole description in CCC itself which leans itself to this idea.
>Gilgamesh is a collector of treasure. "I collected all the treasures of the earth," is Gilgamesh's favorite phrase, but that is not a metaphor. He collected and stored away a sample of all the technology that was developed during his age and sealed them.
>That which Gilgamesh stored, rather than being treasure, is "the origin of the intelligence of mankind" itself. If it does not exist in Gilgamesh's treasury, then it is "something produced by a new breed of humanity, according a completely new concept," "something made from the technology of the culture born from the intelligent life from another heavenly body," one of the two.
>For that reason, of course he has airplanes and submarines. The desires of the people from before Christ are not different, and it would not do for the crafts of ancient times when magic was in good health to be inferior to the crafts of the modern age. People generally realize the "tools of hope" that they dream of, and each time that occurs, it ended with them being confiscated by the king's hand.
Notice what it really says, if something is born from a new breed of humanity then it's not his for example. Notice in the third paragraph it goes on about how he has new age shit only because in olden times they had the same shit back then but better because magic, but not because he has new age shit at all. It was still just something created back then rather than items of modern at all.
Archer Lawful evil
Lancer Neutral good
Gil Chaotic good
Cater Chaotic evil
Kojirou True neutral
Tohsaka Chaotic slut
Also Archer's reel was just something he traced out of a magazine he had read recently like Fishing Pro.
Since this seems to be the general Fate thread atm:
I'm on my way through the Nasu-verse and my current stop is Fate Zero.
Can any /a/non give me a suggestion between sub or dub without all the "hurr durr dub pleb"?
Thanks in advance
Not to be rude/offensive/mean but.... Why would you ever pick dub over sub? Nothing, not even being a slow reader and not being able to pay full attention to the visuals can justify deliberately having horrible voice actors crushing the anime.
And that is why we have this thread. To explain why and why not.
Alignments are based on what they did during the times that they lived, not on your retarded head canon.
>Wanting rejected voice actors from Hollywood that have a shitty monotone voice over talented Nippon stronk voice actors.
If it weren't for the "Not to be rude/offensive/mean" I'd assume you were the "hurr durr dub pleb" like >>101705707
Despite what many die hard anime fans and weaboo claim there have and will continue to be english VA casts that are better suited for the roles and/or more expressive in their roles. Japanese VA are not by definition better than their english counterparts and dubs can make or break certain anime (especially comedy).
There is one and only one thing about Japanese VA work that is hands down better and that is the treatment of the VAs and the inddustry at large.
I haven't seen the dub myself because having played FSN I probably wouldnt have been able to get over Gilgamesh and Kirei not sounding the same, plus at the time the dub wasn't out yet. But, the actors for the dub I've liked in other roles and seem like they'd fit the parts mostly, just do the usual and listen to the first couple episodes in both languages and make your own damn decisions
Most of those alignments are wrong.
A reasonable response and you brought up one caveats of the choice I have: I hate switching after listening to one or the other. Guess its JPN for me, thanks.
>Evil, but it fits
You fucked up, anon. Cu Culhainn and Gilgamesh weren't evil in their myths, regardless of what Eggplant says.
Eggplant says Cu is Lawful Neutral, Gil is Chaotic Good, and Medea is Neutral Evil.
It's just that most people don't agree with Nasu's methods
But if they've been established in the fucking MYTHS about them there's really no counter-argument that can be offered.
Was Gilgamesh a faggot with a huge chip on his shoulder? Yes, but his story was about the death of his friend Enkidu due to his hubris.
The next thing you know, faggots are going to say Lancer of Black is anything but Neutral/Lawful Evil.
Wrong in OP:
It's pretty loathsome for sure, but he probably considered them to be ruined for life already and beyond rehabilitation. Making him not care much.
Probably Gil too
Do you really think Nasu isn't able to change them from what they were in the myths?
Ie: Everyone but Saber and debatablely Medea (Rin isn't a servant)
Wouldn't they technically all be chaotic good, save for maybe Medusa, Medea, and possibly Emiya? I mean, they are "heroes" after all. Sasaki doesn't really count as one, so I suppose he's an exception too.
Medea by her myth would be Evil regardless of what you think since she was a Witch and did murder her children.
>Myth = Nasu characters
Trying to put alignments to mythological figures is stupid since their actions were all over the place. King Arthur, the paragon of morality and chivalry was a rapist and mass-child murderer.
>Arthur rapes his half-sister, overtaken by lust for her. In any case, the discovery of the incest is usually disastrous; after hearing a prophecy that a child born on May Day, as Mordred was, will destroy him and his kingdom, Arthur rounds up all the noble May Babies and sends them away on a rickety ship. The ship sinks, and the only child to survive is Mordred, who is rescued and eventually returned to his parents.
Change places with Kariya and Kotomine.
And Kotomine didn't snap until the very end.
Meanwhile, Kariya was already broken from the beginning. He sugar coated his dark goals and desires, with a heroic paint-job. But in the end his drive was at its core jealousy of Tokiomi, and a vengeful desire to get back at him.
Parts of him even resented Aoi for choosing Tokiomi and not himself.
The sad part about Kariya, is that more than saving Sakura, or caring for Aoi and her family, he wanted picture related with his place instead of Tokiomi's. And he resented the entire world for it not being the case, Tokiomi and Aoi included.
>>He dislikes women who are dependent on men and yet would make use of men. In other words, he dislikes “womanlike” women.
Gilgamesh having taste.
>King Arthur, the paragon of morality and chivalry was a rapist and mass-child murderer.
Different morality, duh
Just finished Fate/Stay in the Kitchen All Day five minutes ago. Didn't like it as much as Fate or UBW. Sakura was a dull character, if it had focused more on Kotomine and Zouken I would have liked it better. In my opinion, Fate = UBW > HF. Anyway, I can now finally watch Fate/Zero.
I hope the original content in the ufotable Fate anime is what would have happened in Superhero/Mind of Steel. I feel sorry for Sakura but I just wanted to kill her off early to save everyone and end her suffering.
Both endings, and Sparks Linear High?
Otherwise you aren't there yet
The cool parts of HF don't involve Sakura at all
Heh, I expressed my wish for a Mind of Steel route when the first threads about ufotable/ stay night started. If a sequel for F Zero was written purely as a sequel without any regard for the fans of F/SN I think it would be Mind of Steel.
Alas: uFotable has come out and said F/SN 2014 will "satisfy all fans of the VN" which worst case scenario a combo route like DEEN/ Stay Night and best case scenario a long form multi-season route transcription of Fate & Heaven's Feel with UBW as an OVA
Lot of HF was saving the one who couldn't be saved; it's an uphill as shit fight to do such a thing, sometimes you'll look back and think it's not worth it, but if you're able to do it then it's a real miracle. You don't play that route for Sakura though, everyone knows that. If you like her then it's considered a plus, but even then you're not playing for her, just like you don't play UBW for Rin.
>Imp-lying any ever in the history of mankind ever played UBW for Rin and not to ZA BONER MAI SOARDA
>just like you don't play UBW for Rin
But I did.
What? Sakura vs Rin fight was hype as fuck
guess there are freaks of nature out there.
Who...who hurt you /a/non...?
>If a sequel for F Zero was written purely as a sequel without any regard for the fans of F/SN I think it would be Mind of Steel.
But that would be thematically redundant. We already went through that whole business with Kerry sacrificing everything he loved for his ideals and ending up a shell of a man because of it. There's no reason to do it again.
>Superhero/Mind of Steel
But that's the end where Shirou discards his ideal for a compromise.
1) Yes, anime has always been known for constantly pushing the realm of mid-series re-invention. I wonder who the MC of Dragon Ball GT is, must be some new fighter with as much zeal as...oh...still fucking Goku (Note: I didn't say it would be the best route to go just the most likely as a pure F Zero sequel).
2) Though I get your concern about it being a re-tread Shirou's position would be the differing factor, he would have the mind of steel but he would not have Kerry's ability, which would make his rise to succeed his father all the more engaging.
Yeah. I don't see what the big deal about Sparks Liner High is though. Just seems like another bad end brought on by a dumb decision not to recruit Rider.
Well, it can't possibly be worse than either of the DEEN adaptations, so whatever happens I'll watch it no matter what.
>but even then you're not playing for her
I get that, I'm just saying that I didn't feel Sakura was compelling enough to abandon a lifetime of ideals for. But yeah, Fate is great because Saber and UBW is great because Archer. But even with Shirou/Archer being the driving force behind UBW I still liked Rin a lot more than Sakura.
>Using the shitty DnD alignment system that has made everything it's ever touched objectively worse by shoehorning characters into unrealistic archetypes.
We go over this enough, but there's no greater betrayal than Mind of Steel route. It's an ending where Shirou "Mr.Save-Everyone" decides to kill someone who is like family to him not even because she's the Shadow, but because "She's a master, being a master means she might fight, maybe fighting means that maybe people will be hurt, maybe people being hurt means I should just kill her now in order to protect any potential loss". This is the same guy who doesn't want to sacrifice anyone, the same guy who wanted to save everyone, yet he kills someone exceedingly close to him over literally nothing about something he had no idea she'd do here.
All Mind of Steel accomplishes is Shirou going down the path of Kiritsugu, killing all his friends, and then becoming mind-broken as he ends up killing far more people thatn his old man by mistake as it turns out Kotomine and Gilgamesh are free to do whatever now and just swoop in at the end to take the prize since anything that can challenge Gilgamesh no longer exists in this world. Angya Manyu is most likely released, and everyone in the town dies, happy ending.
An absolute betrayal of ideals and everything he stood for, the deaths of all his friends, and potentially everyone in town just for the sake of "I want to kill Sakura". If you don't think this is correct then think to yourself, what is really left that can stop Gil here from getting the grail and finally achieving his dream?
>Kotomine and Gilgamesh are free to do whatever now
Isn't Gilgamesh dead at that point in time?
The thing with D&D is that in the world of D&D, good and evil are tangible, objective forces.
Which makes things all weird when the alignments try to relate to our subjective views of good and evil.
It's messy, and never really worked.
>I don't see what the big deal about Sparks Liner High is though
Good music, reveals Archer's ultimate technique as the accumulation of all his labor and skill show he was finally able to fight on par with Saber and take down monsters with his greatest skill, one of the better battles in the VN, and it's not really called a bad end if you go back and check. In fact in Taiga Dojo they literally call it the Saber Ending of HF; especially with how heartfelt the entire thing was there with Saber going "is that really all I mean to you?".
Saber can't intervene with Sakura and Rin for ten minutes, and we know how that battle ends if Saber isn't allowed to intervene.
No, that's like three or four days later.
Resolving a central theme in a meaningful way is not any sort of "re-invention." It's the logical progression of the story. You can't spend an entire work basically telling your audience, "the way this dude is doing things is wrong" and then make a sequel that does the exact same thing. It's worthless.
Unless you're saying that ufotable's staff is not intelligent enough to understand how writing works (or they just don't care) and that they'd do the exact same thing all over again because they thought it was why F/Z was successful. That's kinda pessimistic, but I guess it's not entirely impossible.
>Mind of Steel
>Shirou would let Kiritsugu win
>We go over this
Ya Blew it
Kotomine (and Ilya in fewer words) is the one who acknowledges that Shirou is essentially Kerry at that moment and sanctions his coming victory
>and we know how that battle ends if Saber isn't allowed to intervene
With Rin being a dumb fuck and stabbing herself. ヽ(・ω・)ﾉ
I think he was tainted with the grail by that stage though.
Assuming you played it with the botched RN patch, I would just like to point out that Ougon no Ou actually was a lot better suited for the scene than Mighty Wind.
Mighty Wind being unsuitably up-beat for some reason, whereas Ougon no Ou instead matches the desperation inherent to the scene and the deteriorating/deteriorated minds of both Shirou and Saber.
Not really sure what you're going about here, but Rin doesn't stand much of a chance even if she has greater skill all around at present. After killing her own sister she's mentally unbound as it's noted she'll now do anything to get the grail lest she break down, and upon seeing the truth of the grail she will surely break down since she would be far worse than a heretic to go ahead with her wish. Shirou is someone who is already broken and thus even if he must become a machine he will not break, he will do anything it takes including becoming a bigger monster than Kerry now in order to show his resolve here. The one who is unbound vs the one who has become a machine of death, even with skill and a servant on her side Kotomine states rather plainly that there is no doubt in the result of this conflict anymore.
Guy, the picture is Rin's disapproval/pensive look and its the only reason I put it there. Thanks for writing a long form explanation of what I was telling the other guy about MoS Shirou.
Oh, is that translated now?
The thing with MoS Shirou is that he has the connections to get the relevant type of resources.
And is unhinged enough to do stuff like picture related, even if there were to be casualties.
Rin is indeed an exceptional magus, but she would be fucked if Shirou were to go full Punisher on her, without her expecting it.
Even Kotomine wouldn't prevail if Shirou launched an assault at him with fire-arms and explosives, having prepped the vicinity beforehand.
I was both posts, Shirou won't lose to Rin of course, but Kotomine is a master of half truths in the end. Shirou will win the grail, but Kotomine and Gilgamesh truly are free to step in at the end as nothing would stop them and why would they desire not to intervene considering their shared wish?
There's no doubt that Shirou would beat any master at present, but an attack coming from a place he never realized right at the very end would likely take him out as the prize is snatched away. Your green-texting in the previous post didn't really confirm much about what you were getting at since ">Shirou would let Kiritsugu win" I assume you may have meant Kotomine there and ">We go over this " is just incredibly vague.
Even Kerry at his best couldn't overcome raw numbers at times, and Shirou is just no match for that pair on his own here unless he can recontact with a very good servant before the end. Kotomine does not lie typically(Roughtly two things in the series he's said could be inferred as lies if you want to be serious, such as him saying he has the grail in Fate route. Nasu calls this a white lie however), but he will leave out information with purpose.
Its the ending where he truly follows his ideal inherited by Kerry with no compromising. But mostly im curious of how he wins with no servant
He Becomes a Superhero
Luckily he shouldn't have to fight Kotomine since he "approves" of his victory.
Sabers = Always have major issues
Archers = Always strongest servants
Lancers = Always die a horrible death
Riders = Always Best bro's
Assassins = Always just exist to be killed
Casters = Always best soulmates
Berserkers = Always choosing the worst people for the class
>Its the ending where he truly follows his ideal inherited by Kerry with no compromising.
The idea Kiritsugu left him with was "I want to be a super hero that saves everyone"; he even goes over the explanation how this works in Fate route invovling a bank robbery, as he wants to save even the person sticking up the bank in the end.
That was the idea that Kerry left him with, it wasn't until HF that he learned that his father was really a mass murderer for hire that would kill the few to save the many. However even learning that this is not the idea that Kiritsugu wanted to leave with his son, this is the opposite of what he wanted to leave with his son as he worries about that quite a bit before his death as noted in the novels. He didn't want his son to follow after him in this path at all.
I wholeheartedly agree that
>"We go over this"
is an extremely vague cop-out as its what I was quoting from >>101711842
There is no "we" just you positing some mass agreement that simply doesn't exist.
To say that Emiya will not trounce Kotomine in that route is just completely misunderstanding what the sentence
Emiya will become a superhero means. How can he defeat masters with servants without his own. The answer is plain as day: he will become EMIYA the canonical version of Shirou that is a superhero.
If you don't understand how a living EMIYA with the disposition of Kerry can trounce Gil, Kotomine or just about any combination you need to report to a powerlevel thread stat.
what the fuck? I'm sure I've seen this before, am I being rused?
I'd say lancer will last the final round this time, not sure about the winner however.
Trick question, grail wars can have no winner
Are servants allowed to change masters if their's is killed or their contract is broken?
How long would Ryunoske last before Caster kills him?
but he lacks the training to even properly project in that route without Archer's arm let alone to deploy his Unlimited Blade Works
Saber will still have his moral issues
Archer unknown, probably won't get along well with Tokiomi
Lancer won't be bound by command seals and will probably do well this time
Berserker will kill Kariya even faster than Lancelot did
Caster won't get along with caster and will die
>Caster won't get along with caster and will die
Caster won't get along with Ryunosuke and will kill or disable him**
Rider will probably follows his orders but Waver is still kind of a kid so he won't be led to glory like with his original rider
>Its the ending where he truly follows his ideal inherited by Kerry with no compromising.
No, that's not it at all. It's the route where Shirou discards his ideal justice in order to ally himself with a more conventional type of justice.
Archer and Shirou actually talks a lot about different types of justice earlier in the route, which is kind of lost in the translation when "ally of justice" is just plainly translated to "superhero".
Superhero admittedly isn't that bad of a translation for ally of justice, generally speaking. But in this context, it makes a mess of the text as the nuance of just what the fuck they are talking about is lost.
With the choice in the park, when Shirou becomes a "superhero" instead of protecting Sakura, would imply that the path is somehow heroic whereas the regular path somehow isn't.
And while that could arguably be true, what the choice is actually about is Shirou allying himself with a conventional form of justice instead of his ideal one.
He steels his mind, because the compromise kills an essential part of him. Hence Illya's quote implying that Shirou would fool himself forever, crying.
The Mind of Steel path is not the path where Shirou follows the ideal, nor is one where he becomes a "superhero".
It's the path where he fails to become the hero he wanted, and out of desperation clings to the idea that Emiya Shirou still has to become an "ally of justice/kamen-rider", because it's the only thing he has lived for. Disregarding how much it shits all over his ideal.
That's the nature of the Mind of Steel end. It's a compromise where he directly goes against his ideal that was everything to him. The end where he kills all his beloved. The end where he becomes an empty husk of a man, that's completely alone and with nothing left, out of an obsession of still needing to be an "ally of justice" in one form or another.
Yes, if they're killed. That's why leaving servants or masters with remaining command spells could be problematic. I'm not sure what you mean by a broken contract, but maybe.
Chances that Rider will let him refill her mana?
I don't think you understand the nature of the resolve he takes up at the end of MoS. He will do |anything| to win at that point. Your disbelief does however posit one of my main problems with MoS in that Nasu didn't have scenes of just how far Shirou went in that route to become EMIYA.
Oh well, that's what we have fanwank for.
Not likely, she only took a liking to his older self.
Caster's ruler breaker breaks contracts so she has the possibility of pulling UBW shenanigans but lacks the motivation without her husbando
Kiritsugu however will not have as much of a problem with Saber anymore
Part of the reason he would not acknowledge her is that she was a fifteen year old girl who was basically sacrificed for her country due to a cruel age without reward or meaning. To him a hero was just a sacrifice by the people, and especially when it was just a small girl thrown to the lions so that they could have "peace" brought about by her loss. The entire system and the idea of people loving heroes that causes the system to endlessly which led to endless war for the sake of ideals like heroism, he hated it.
He'd still hate Saber on virtue of being a hero and thus one who propagates the system by being something seen by children as "inspiring" so they also wish for a life of swords and battle, but not as much now on being just a sacrifice made by the people since now he looks like he was old enough to make the choice for himself rater than just being chosen as the one who would suffer so others could string them up and celebrate.
Oh, yeah, that. If they can form a new contract if their master dies then I can't see why they couldn't, although I'm not certain.
>Kariya summoning Heracles as a Berserker
He dies day 1 from being sucked dry out of magic
You know what Waver is good at right? Being Kayneth's little sister's bitch
Which war do you think has more "broken" (as in overpowered) servants overall, 4th or 5th?
5th. Not even close.
4th war had more famous and therefore stronger heroes.
Why are people keen on associating D&D alignments on anything they can get their filthy hands on again?
He also makes great maids/waifus out of mercury.
To be fair in this case Nasu did it first
Because FSN literally has D&D stats on the characters, but people just don't agree with them or don't understand the characters enough or understand D&D enough and think the current alignments must be wrong.
Lawful doesn't mean "Won't kill, does everything good"
and enjoys punishing Flatts with a lot of homework
D&D alignments are canon for nasuverse characters.
Does Nasu play DnD or did he just think it sounded cool? I mean he uses a lot of tabletop terms....
SLF ends with Rin getting stabbed and Angra Mainyu being born to the world. Even the cavern collapsing isn't enough to stop that. Shirou says that outright. So while it has a good fight scene the ending is bleak.
>I'll destroy the giant magic circle, and the shadow along with it. Angra Manyu's fetal activity is slowly destroying the cavern. …But I don't think it'll die even if the cavern collapses. I have to destroy that thing here and now.
I've heard that he used to play D&D with Takeuchi and the Butcher, but I couldn't source it.
I can believe it a shit ton of random people have played it like Sasha Grey or Vin Diesel. I just didn't know if Japs played it or even heard of it
Here's what Urobuchi said when questioned in Otakon 2012:
>Have you enjoyed any other Table top RPGs over the years?
>It has been a while since I have played a table top RPG like Red Dragon. But the last time I played a table top game it was in my high school days. I used to play Call of Cthulhu, Dungeons and Dragons, and Sword World which was created by Mizuno.
>Call of Cthulhu
This explains a lot
>SLF ends with Rin getting stabbed and Angra Mainyu being born to the world. Even the cavern collapsing isn't enough to stop that. Shirou says that outright. So while it has a good fight scene the ending is bleak.
Rin is stabbed, Sakura is hating herself enough to almost break the contract to the point that Angya has to literally bind her in order to protect itself, at that point there are two variables left. Rider or Saber, if Rider shows herself before Sakura and Sakura wishes for death in that moment it could be granted, if Saber makes it there before Angya is born then Sakura may ask for death as well but it depends on who Saber's real master is in that moment whether it's Sakura or Angya. Either way there's a small hope left as we know Rider would be there for that moment and we knew everything leading up to that, but if Sakura is killed then Angya still might be born even if he's missing half of his body currently as he'll still try to force himself into creation and just find some humans to snack on nearby like Caster's summoned god in order to sustain it's existence.
Don't get me wrong, the ending is still bleak either way as even the best ending of Saber making it back in time to kill Sakura or Angya if commanded will still result in the cast dying even if it means the town itself can be saved. However with the current cards in play the chance of all out chaos being avoided does exist with Saber or Rider. The key point to remember is that in this outcome Rin is stabbed and Sakura in that moment is forced back into sanity as she does everything she can at that point to put a stop to it, so as long as the chance exists it can be created with that will. But, the ending is left vague with reason in that sense, they leave it up to the viewer to assume what happens afterwords since there no longer can be a point of reference left. That's part of what can make a good story after all, the outcome is left blank for the user to fill in at the end, but
Nasu never played D&D with Gen.
His old D&D buddies were just Takeuchi, Takeuchi's older brother, and that computer programmer guy they had with them during Tsukihime.
>Call of Cthulhu
And thusly was Song of Saya Born clawing and screaming its way from the Butcher's mind
as Saber mentioned in the end. No matter who the victor, no matter the outcome, the one whom they wished to meet and wished to live in the end will no longer greet them again. Shirou is dead, and no matter what happens from there on out the answer received in those final moments will leave a scar on any that might survive.
Avenger has developed sufficiently by that point that he survives even if his contract with Sakura is broken. Sakura dying wouldn't make a difference.
Saber team or Archer team.
- Saber team would be just as effective as usual, since Kitsurugi is the driving force.
- Archer team would have great power and synergy, EMIYA willing to go great lengths to protect Rin's father from the suffering he saw in his time.
- Lancer team would be much better off with 5th Lancer, though they're still dramatically outclassed by other teams.
- Rider team would put up a good fight, but the lack of inspiration from 5th Rider (compared to 4th Rider) would prevent Waver from upping his game.
- Berserker team would be worse off, what with 5th Berserker not having a grudge to propel him.
- Assassin team would remain loyal to Tokiomi, since Gil isn't around to tempt Kotomine.
- Caster team would be broken up within days, just like with 5th Caster's first master in her war; the new master would probably be Tokiomi (Kotomine informing), or some random schmuck.
It comes down to how well Kitsurugi calls Tokiomi's actions as a mage, and how EMIYA chooses between his father figure and his friend's father.
That's kind of the second part, Bellerophon or Excalibur could take out Avenger's form if Sakura was able to command them still without being stopped by Angya. However the question there is whether Saber would even be able to do that considering she's kind of made of Angya in part. It won't take too much to break Angya's current form as even Shirou was able to do it, so Rider surely could as well.
It depends on if she would act though, or if Saber got there in time if not Rider. Time is of the essence though so it's hard to say if that's a path, but one would infer Rider would be present in the underground in that moment in spirit form all along considering her own desires.. Angya will be born if nothing else, but a path to end him is right there if possible.
A good person has to actually try to do good things like protect the weak and actually try to save lives. Gil does not give a single shit about other people's lives so how is he chaotic good?
Half the point is "This could be an ending where Angya is born and Fuyuki is devoured, this could also be an ending where some are saved, but the point of reference with Shirou is dead so it is anyone's guess". No matter the outcome the it'll only weight heavily on the hearts left, but it both options can be present.
I didn't see it as an absolute bad end, and it's not listed as such either, but no matter the ending reached it will leave a mark.
>so how is he chaotic good?
Read this >>101697565
and also this
He does care. Why else did he kill Sakura in HF? AM was killing his mongrels.
Chaotic Good does not always mean Batman. One can be good, yet not actively seek to destroy evil.
Archer isn't chaotic good, he's either True Neutral or Neutral Good depending on his PTSD levels.
Lancer is definition of Lawful Neutral, he doesn't give a fuck about good or evil, but promises and rules and laws those are things he dies for.
Rider is Evil, she only cares about a handful of people at best and has no issues with torturing and killing people to accomplish her goals.
Rin might arguably be Lawful Neutral, but that's only whenever Shirou or Sakura aren't involved.
Gil is exactly where he belongs.
>blind people are always true neutral
>guy in bright, golden armor is always considered evil
>illidian stormrage poser is considered chaotic neutral
>Gil is exactly where he belongs.
No not really.
We've been over this.
His word alone is law, thus he pretty much goes out to fuck with any laws passed by others.
He's selfish and his every act in the wars is either to satisfy his greed or to mold humans into something that disgust him less.
He's an Übermensch, a God and a King above all others. Chaotic Evil is perfect for him, since that's how pretty much everyone in the stories see him as.
We've been over how he's not chaotic evil this thread, and it was proven that he wasn't.
>eating orphan souls for 10 years
Read >>101697565. If you seriously think he is Chatoic Evil you just simply don't understand his character.
Except that was Kotomine's that set that up not Gilgamesh.
he had orphans in a state of living hell for ten years even though he even admitted it was unnecessary
>allies himself with an evil master
Sure is secondary in here.
People who believe that Gilgamesh kills on a whim all the time or just for the sake of it, and cares nothing for human life really need to read his backstory more.
>There was a demon named Humbaba.
>We combined our strength and defeated it.
>I asked Gilgamesh,
>"Why did we determine to defeat him?
>It was not an order from the gods.
>That said, neither should it have been for the sake of the people of Uruk."
>"Ah, was it not to protect Uruk?
>If do not to defeat all the evils of the earth, the people would starve, would they not?"
>Then why? I pressed.
>He was a tyrant to the people of Uruk.
>Why would this man worry of them?
>"It's no mystery.
>It is because I was born to protect humans.
>It is a king's duty to build up this world's future and civilization."
>He said that, looking far into the distance.
>It was so far off that I, who had been made for a similar purpose,
>Could not discern what he was looking at.
>"And are there not different sorts of guardians?
>I am not the sort who simply protects. Sometimes, even the north wind is a necessity."
>That time, I completely understood him.
You were studiously ignoring Gil in F/Z, then.
Tokiomi annoyed Gil, but he did not kill Tokiomi just because he was a mongrel. Being a mongrel is not a capital offense.
Gil prodded Saber during the King's Banquet because he wanted to see if Saber would endure a hardship like he would.
Gil had an honorable battle with Rider, though he could have killed him instantly.
Gil allowed waver to live, while an evil man would have killed him after presenting him with a twisted choice.
And, onto your post:
>satisfy his greed
It's his nature to be greedy. There is nothing evil about following one's nature.
>mold humans into something that disgust him less.
He considers today's humans to be lesser than modern humans, rightfully so. In the cosmic scale of things that Gil sees, improving humanity by culling the flock is a good action.
Good's job is not to defeat evil, or to even care. Good's job is to simply, be good.
Your point being? Since when was it his job to deal with such unimportant matters?
And that somehow makes him not evil?
He wants to kill 90% of humanity, because there's an excess of "useless" people. He wants to rape Saber. He went out of his way to teach Kotomine that he enjoyed other people's suffering. He consumed orphans to sustain his prana even though at his level of Independant Action he didn't even really need it.
That was Kirei's doing. Gil is not so impolite as to turn down an offering from his summoner, disgusting though it may be. Why would he care about such mongrels anyways, when they were already in a state of near death?
Gilgamesh DID kill Rider instantly. It was a very, very onesided battle.
Would Shirou and Archer have the same alignment?
It's already been explained why his alignment is Chaotic Good see >>101697565. it doesn't matter what you say canonically he is Chaotic Good and nothing you say can change that.
>There is nothing evil about following one's nature.
Sure, it's my nature to want to have sex with every hot woman I see. So rape is cool, right?
>improving humanity by culling the flock is a good action
Thinks an evil man.
Killing the useless people IS good in the Nasuverse, you dumb fuck.
He does not want to rape saber, else he would have done it. He wants to break saber, to see if she would be like him in a moment of struggle.
He taught Kotomine to do what is pleasurable. It is not his fault that Kotomine derived pleasure from Evil alone.
He consumed orphans because Kirei set it up. Gil doesn't care about orphans. No one is saying Gil isn't the world's biggest douchecanoe, but he is not some evil maniac.
Hair down Archer and UBW Shirou are practically the same.
Here's the fucking thing: Nasu doesn't understand what Chaotic Good actually is. He can say "Gilgamesh is chaotic good" all he wants, but he has to make his characters match the concepts, not rewrite the concepts to match his characters.
>He wants to kill 90% of humanity, because there's an excess of "useless" people. He wants to rape Saber. He went out of his way to teach Kotomine that he enjoyed other people's suffering. He consumed orphans to sustain his prana even though at his level of Independant Action he didn't even really need it.
>“Fool. As if my affection points would rise.
>I am more indifferent now than I usually am.
>Most of what goes on is none of my business, after all.
>If I were, for example, to become incarnated, my blood as a human would stir
>and my nature would gravitate towards that of the humans of that era---
>however, there is no such alteration here.
>Thus, I shall simply tour SE.RA.PH as I please.
>Some trivial secret like this will do as fare.”
>The hero who has known no fear since the Age of the Gods,
>and lived only according to his desires.
>It seems that his way of existence is no different now as a Servant from when he was alive.
>....but come to think of it.
>Really, why’s this awful thing a Servant?
>Though such is the AUO, being an allied Servant, surely he will someday come to mutual trust with the protagonist and, along with light conversation, unlock his SGs.
>Additionally, because he is not incarnated in Extraverse, he is not affected by the nature of the era’s civilization. In CCC, one may occasionally catch glimpses of the more personal sides of a neutral Gilgamesh from the era of the epic.
Gilgamesh in FSN while he couldn't be corrupted by Angya, was altered since he became an incarnated human as directly referenced. It's also stated in his bio that he judges good and evil equally, and sees life as something that either ends eventually or ends now, so his standards of good and evil are different from present day. It's not that he kills on a whim or with malice, but he'll only raise his fists against someone if they make him their enemy or become abominable.
But Gil is the biggest douchebag in the world. Even if you try to explain all his reasons, he's still hurting others, he's still killing others for his own obscure reasons and he's still causing others to suffer.
He might have once been a force of good, in the age of gods, but that's long since passed.
Nice to know you know nothing about alignments anon.
So if the concepts of good and evil don't apply to him why does he have an alignment in the first place?
Explain, how is he evil?
>Good's job is not to defeat evil, or to even care. Good's job is to simply, be good.
Good by definition is the opposite of Evil, it's not a matter of "job" or "caring" it simply is. Good doesn't seek to defeat Evil, it simply does because that's what it is.
Light doesn't seek to defeat the darkness, warmth doesn't want to oppose the cold. They just do.
Oprhan feeding, helping Kotomine, seeking to break Saber for his curiosity's sake, killing those who don't fit into his worldview.
Except you don't understand alignments at all so arguing with you is pointless.
He didn't do the first, the second isn't evil, the third isn't evil, and the fourth is because of incarnation, and only applies to 4th Archer.
Gil does not put high priority on a single life, but he does love humanity. He prides himself on being an observer who will not intervene in situations primarily unless they require something only he can provide. It's noted in Ataraxia that he spent the time in between Zero and Fate as I recall in Child form so that he wouldn't really spend any mana, but he left Kotomine up to his hobbies and only really needed to refuel himself right before the war for the most part. Good and evil had a different meaning back then, which is why a hero like Hercules that imprisoned, sold, raped, and killed his own family(Not all of those things were done to the family, those are just different things he did) he was still a hero without question. Heroes were flawed back then, and to judge them fully with the same moral standards of today is a failure in itself.
Nowhere was it said that good and evil don't apply to him; all that was really stated there is that the difference in his behavior in FSN is with reason, and he is someone who looks over humanity equally and plays both protector and Tester to them in order to make them stronger, He does not kill out of malice or hatred generally, but only when someone would turn against him or become stained to their core. A good King is not just one who protects the people while watching them grew dull and weak, but one who also keeps them sharp so that they'd be ready even if he was not there.
Still fucking evil.
He is evil by your "definition", but by the alignment system that is used in Nasuverse is is Chaotic Good.
>Nowhere was it said that good and evil don't apply to him
For example, raping a bride on her wedding day was considered bad form even back then, which is why Enkidu was sent to fuck him up. However if Gilgamesh was told his servants that he would kill the most useless of them one day, then even if he killed one it would not be evil for a king back then. Different standards and practices were at work, but generally slaves were considered less than human at times.
Even simply leaving those orphans there was evil. Kotomine is kinda of difficult to argue about, since Gil's motives were mostly boredom. Breaking people to see how they react sure is pretty fucking evil, right up there with rape and torture. Incarnation sounds nice, does that mean it's okay to be evil if you're drunk?
Alright, you're a moron, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you.
What if kariya won the war and didnt make a retard outta aoi?
Zouken would have the grail. think about that for a moment.
That's an Einzbern-approved way of completing the grail. Talk to old man Einzbern, and not Gil, if you want to bitch about that.
So "slashing her eyes" is all a part of the process?
So, the alignment system that Nasu had to make up to justify him being Chaotic Good? Not the, you know, real one?
The dub is better .
Have you read the VN?
This holy fuck how do you fuck up this bad?
But Bazette wasn't evil.
He has already given statements to justify his placement in "Chatoic Good" Read the damn thread, see:
We can at least say he's Chaotic - the whimsical nature of his character confirms that.
Between Good and Evil, it's a matter of interpretation. Is "Acting like a king" by providing protection for subjects a benevolent action, or is there no good intention behind it? Are the sporadic acts of cruelty and general callous attitude done in malice, or are they an extension of his Chaotic behavior?
I'd classify him as Chaotic Neutral. He's not acting for anyone's benefit, nor for their detriment; his sole concern is himself in a moment-to-moment fashion.
>His alignment is Chaotic Good.
>A cold-blooded tyrant,
>When he kills a person, it is because that person has become an enemy of his.
>King and sentencer who weighs both good and evil equally.
>“So in the end it has nothing to do with rules or conditions and just depends on what he feels like that day?!”
> misrule during a drunken stupor,
>Gilgamesh is a king who, from start to end, reigns by means of only “himself.” What he loves are “treasures” and “tools,” while a “person” is no more than that which must one day perish.
Sure sounds GOOD to me
>was altered since he became an incarnated human
This would mean that F/SN Gil and F/Z Gil would have different alignments
>need to read his backstory more.
Have any of you fuckers read the epic of Gilgamesh? The reason Enkidu is summoned is because Gilgamesh is murdering all of his followers and raping all of their women.
You say that like it's a bad thing
Yeah, sure looks good to me.
Note that Gil is acting only because he considers that protection a requisite behavior for rulers. He's not protecting subjects because he cares about them, but because he cares about his position.
>Have any of you fuckers read the epic of Gilgamesh? The reason Enkidu is summoned is because Gilgamesh is murdering all of his followers and raping all of their women.
That was in Nasu's version as well, but he got better. Guy went through his angry dick phase, had a good king phase, went into his insane hobo phase, and went back into his good king phase once more in the end. Raping women was indeed bad, but as stated twice now, he did stop doing it and get better.
It's like you think that he was only ever that, but read this to see how the rest of the tale goes here.
>Note that Gil is acting only because he considers that protection a requisite behavior for rulers. He's not protecting subjects because he cares about them, but because he cares about his position.
How is that not good? Surely, you don't mean to say that anyone who is not an absolute saint should be Neutral or Evil?
If Gilgamesh is good then why is he an antagonist?
If light was evil, why was he the protagonist?
Only one person can be the protagonist in the end
Well, Shirou is insane and he will arguably end up becoming a mass murdering terrorist.
If Caster was evil, why was she the best girl?
His intent isn't to do "good" things, but to do "kingly" things. That some "kingly" things happen to have good effects is incidental, just as how some have incidentally cruel effects.
And so, we have come full circle. Pack it up gents, we win.
"The king is always right, even when he is wrong"
I thought he remained HERO OF JUSTICE, and only went insane when he became a counter guardian and just killed, killed and killed because Gaia has a sick sense of humour and used him as a janitor to clean up a mess instead of prevent it from happening?
Problem is that
>D&D wise, it's action not intention that determines your alignment
... is objectively wrong.
Else you'd see a fuckton of falling paladins, tricked into performing acts that someone saw as evil.
There have been a lot of Fate threads.
and a lot of stupid arguments about a lot of stupid topics.
But this has to be one of the worst.
>2-3 people giving sources and citing why/who is he is the way he is
>1-2 people completely ignoring everything and being stubborn saying that he's evil/evil
Fate threads can ONLY go downhill when the anime starts.
Nasu confirms that Extra Archer is the same as FSN Archer, and during his E-Matrix conversation he lambasts himself for shooting down a plane full of innocents infected with a deadly virus in order to save potentially millions. He goes on about no one has the right to make that choice, and how beautiful they were in those final moments working together so that at least some could survive, before he shot them down.
Also he confirms the same in UBW route, when he mentions how he always killed the few to save the many until he hesitated less and less when it came to making that choice with time. The terrorist bit is also from Extra, as he talks about his vigilante days and how the government hated him because he was pretty much the only man who couldn't be bribed or bought, which scared the hell out of them since they were corrupt as shit. Which is actually how he died in the end. He had another friend who was a vigilante who sold him out after Archer went too far with his justice one day, and the police were happy to do away with him since the idea of a human who only follows JUSTICE frankly scared them all, he was seen as almost inhuman to most.
His vigilante friend was also the same guy he talked about saving at one point in UBW. It was left vague so Nasu could go in and expound upon it later, but the core about him being sold out on trumped up charges remains the same.
Except his intentions aren't to be "good", but to be "kingly". He's never concerned with right or wrong, just or unjust - a king is above such things.
Yet, he helps his people. He becomes a better king for his people, and for his friend. How is this evil?
It's not evil, which is why I'm arguing for Chaotic Neutral.
But a Neutral king would not have slain Humbaba, or would have stopped raping wives. Were he neutral, he would not try to cull the modern population, or fight to save humanity in CCC. He is simply not Morally Neutral.
I've finally gotten around to reading this. I'm at te part where Tohsaka takes Emiya to the church.
It seems I'm in for quite the ride.
You're about one third done.
I've heard this shit is way long. What are you talking about?
He means the first time they go to the Church like ten minutes into the game
Bull fucking shit.
Nigga has like 30-40 more hours to go
Yeah, he was mistaken. You've got a billion words to go. No, Kotomine never shuts up, learn to love him and his speeches.
He's not even a third of the way through the first route.
Terumi goes beyond Chaotic Evil, he's like...Terumi Evil or something. Hell, he's almost so evil he loops back around on himself and then keeps going just to see how evil he can really get.
And it amuses me that Makoto keeps fucking his wheels-within-wheels plans without even trying no matter WHAT he does.
I was intentionally being stupid and lying with the hope that I might get an amusing reaction like
>one third done
nigga are you serious?
but instead I just got called out and now I feel awful.
Neutral isn't universally apathetic. For a Good person, it's painful to see others suffer; for an Evil person, it's pleasurable to see others suffer. A Neutral person wouldn't feel pleasure or pain based on the suffering alone, though they might care about the suffering for other reasons. In the case of Gil, his behavior is shaped by what he considers to be kingly.
Heh, that pic name makes me think "I can have my Drake and eat her too!"
That's what you get for trying to be funny. Let this be a lesson to you.
2/10, it's the best I can do.
You might have gotten me if this was my first VN.
But good people can have pleasure from Schadenfreude. What you define as "Good" and "Evil" are likely not consistent with Nasu's universe.
You've got a point with Nasu's universe, but that's an incompatibility between Wizards alignment and Nasu alignment. Wizards universes are overseen by gods of objective good and evil, while Nasu deals with moral subjectivity. The more Nasu-like the character - Ceil, R.Shiki, Gil - the less a moral categorization system applies to them. Nasu alignment says Gil is Good, Wizards alignment says Gil is Neutral.
I think the issue of Gil's morality is settled, but Schadenfreude is a fun family activity for all ages and moral alignments.
Isn't this where the pleasure of revenge comes from?
>caster paired with useless retard
>weakest servant paired with kotomine
but I'd have to say the lack of kotomine/gil double-trouble would enable kiritsugu to fuck up everyone else
People with a good alignment can have evil thoughts and vice versa. If they didn't, they wouldn't be human.
100% Good-aligned people wouldn't find pleasure in revenge, but there are no such people. Aside from gods. Schadenfreude isn't a Good action, but Good-aligned people can still find pleasure in the suffering of others - it just makes them less Good. Until they're 6 or less on a 1-10 scale of goodness, people are categorized as Good in Wizards systems.
Nasu's system is generally more forgiving in a way, as even one that can end humanity would still be labeled an innocent in some cases. Even if they bring death and destruction to humanity, it may only be judged as evil if it knows what it has done and sees it's own actions as evil in turn. A being lacking the same understanding as humanity often cannot be labeled as good or evil.
However even then with humans there is a certain forgiving or understanding quality about. It's not about passing judgement on them but rather understanding them in truth, and what they stand for. Of course evil will still be evil, but what defines it isn't such an obvious thing at times. There is a gap rule there that makes it a bit more complex.
Even before Gil got to Kirei's head, Kirei was still Kerry's most feared opponent.
If anything, Gil distracting Kirei, made it easier for Kerry to "win" against him.
Those last 3 days were pretty heavy.
He tries to kill her because his plans went out of control. That's it. The BS he said about not tolerating AM's actions falls flat when Nasu said in CM3 he has been pestering her to kill herself without explaining exactly why. You can see her being accosted by him in the prologue.
No matter how people try to spin it, the source of the problem isn't Sakura, but the Grail being fucked up and that fucked system being jammed into her body.
They even had Gil say the same thing if you beat Dark Sakura with him in Unlimited Codes. He never really cared to 'save his mongrels' but to do the 'selection' of executions as he sees fit.
Yes. Gil sees humans as his property and gets annoyed when someone other than himself kills them because it infringes upon his rights as king. (After all, he wants to use the Grail to wipe out humanity himself.)
You know the drill.
So does Shirou play DnD, or was it just a coincidence that he saw the servants status that way?
>over 350 replies
Good going, OP.
Maybe, but by the same token he knows that the only way to keep anyone safe from Zouken would be to kill the worm that walks.
Isn't Zouken's main body liviing inside Sakura's heart or something along those lines?
Shame though how little FSN Gilgamesh resembles his Epic counterpart in anyway.
Shit he is far closer to their version of Alexander the Great.
Are you a fucking idiot?
Yes that is why he needed to get to the grail.
What would Zouken do with the grail anyway?
Immortality, same reason he wanted Sakura, and maybe to resurrect his waifu if he remimbers, when the angry jew kills everything.
Gil wants to be the one to kill everyone. He only objects that someone else is doing it.
Read HF. He wants to transfer his mind into Avenger's body and thus have an immortal body for himself.
I did, over 2 years ago. isn't there much easier methods to attaining immortality like becoming a DA?
He is a dick, and he doesn't know how otherwise he would have probably done so already.
And this is why I always wanted to start a Kariya Quest here.
DAs aren't eternal either. Roa came close to immortality but the process still failed since he's lost his mind and effectively became a homicidal urge for his future incarnations.
I guess, but remember that DA's can live for a extremely long period of time namely Gransurg Blackmore and Trhvmn Ortenrosse, but getting bitten by a TA isn't a easy thing to accomplish i guess.
They're still not eternal and Zouken is obsessed with immortality. Nero would have lasted for a while, but he's slowly losing his mind and will be reduced to a collection of beasts.
Becoming a vampire won't really stop the rotting of the soul, which is already an issue for Zouken, and there's the issue with becoming a huge target for the Church and the upper echelons of the Mage's Association for heresy.
If Zouken wanted to be immortal, why didn't he just become a lich?
I'm surprised the church hasn't noticed him up to this point already.
They focus on hunting vampires and Japan isn't a Christian nation anyway. Only reason Ciel went to Japan is that Roa has been on their hit list for centuries.
He'd probably just end up dying after he returned Sakura to Aoi after he gave evil men control of the grail.
So most likely it would be a bad end, unless he gambled everything on the corrupt grail and it decided to go against its nature and not kill humanity.
Basically it would be the same if anyone won.
I'm not actually sure whether his actions so far count as something the Church would take action against.
Sure, even Kotomine finds him abominable, but he's still human. Kinda.
Wait... how did Ciel know about Roa in Japan? Why'd she even make friends with Tohno Shiki if that's the case? If she knew, shouldn't she just have BTFO of Roa?
His magic is too shit. Well magic in Nasuverse is pretty much too shit in general for that to work in general.
Ciel is connected to Roa and can sense his general whereabouts. He infiltrated the school to get cover while scouting around the city.
Wasn't Roa hiding in the school during the far side routes in Tsukihime? How didn't Ciel notice that?
It was SHIKI. Roa didn't take over in far side routes
Good point, lets change the question.
How didn't Ciel notice Roa earlier in the Near side routes considering he was living/hiding out at the school where she regularly attended?
She did sense his presence at school. That was the reason she investigate Shiki as he was potential candidate for Roa incarnation.
>depending on the frequency of his drunk escapades.
Go watch Zero again and look for the scene where Gil talks to Kotomine about his wish. Make a point to count how many wine bottles are lying around the room. This was about three days since he had been summoned, and I couldn't count them all but it's something in the vicinity of fifteen bottles. Take that as you will.
Unless you lucked into becoming a decent vampire.
I'm honestly surprised Gilgamesh would drink that crap over his own supply.
I think F/SN has spoiled me. I've been trying to read Tsukihime but it's so hard to pay attention without the voices.
Never had that problem myself because i read both of them unvoiced.
But that doesn't really happen unless you are the planet or some stupid shit like that.
F/HA 100% when
When Gil stops jobbing.
Not really, it's all based on "their magical potential of the body"
So last year when CCC got released?
Sorry, let me rephrase that.
When Gil stops jobbing in translated works.
Fate Zero is the best part of Nasuverse.
Not really, magic circuits are pretty well explained in the Nasuverse. considering they are important across multiple series
So when F/Z got a LN and a anime then?
Secondaries are not wanted here
>Anywhere near the Evil alignment
shiggy diggy do
Cu murdered his own son, and could have made a good berserker.
I disagree with you but I do think Zero is good.
To be fair he didn't know it was his own son.
Fall can't come soon enough.
>Conlaoch then came against Cúchulainn himself and was asked his lineage, but again could not tell it and so was challenged by Cúchulainn. In the terrible battle that followed the hero light came upon Cúchulainn and Conlaoch realised that he was fighting his father and that his mother had been treacherous, he cast his spear sideways so that it would miss Cúchulainn and shouted that he was his son, but it was too late Cúchulainn had already thrown the gae bulga (which he had won from Aoife) and it was unstoppable once thrown and thus Conlaoch was slain.
>Cúchulainn was thrown into a fit of rage and grief in which he lost his senses and started attacking anything in sight, so in order to save him and his friends from further tragedy, the Druid Cathbad cast a spell upon Cúchulainn causing him to see the waves of the sea as armed opponents. He battled with the waves until he collapsed from exhaustion.
And yet he was still more moral then King Author.
Funny how things work isn't it?
Where is that comic from?
Tohsaka is not a servant.
Sláine, it's been around a long while. The hero is based on Cúchulainn and Irish mythology but not actually Cúchulainn.
That's exactly what he was famous for
"The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front… On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child… he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat… The hair of his head twisted like the tange of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage. ”
— from The Táin
Thanks gonna have to read this some time.
Can we have it now?
"But Anon, how can you call what happened to me 'Stupid shit'? Don't you like me anymore, Anon?"
Isn't it sad, Sacchin?
Log Horizon's writer played it.
> record of lodoss war
All of the rational people here trying to argue with /a/ that Gil is evil should just give up. Consider that this whole discussion is being frame by an ethical system devised for a tabletop RPG, i.e. a game, which is about the only situation in which /a/ would even bother with considering ethics seriously. The only ones who do are the types who did all that "Shurer" stuff during Guilty Crown, about which they were half serious at least. There's no point bothering to try to convince them of why culling most of humanity to "improve" it would be an evil action. Their way of thinking simply won't respond to anything you say.
>All of the rational people here trying to argue with /a/ that Gil is evil should just give up
We have been over this stop bringing it back up, he is Chaotic Good. we have provided evidence and such to prove he is. end of story.
Never did in the first place.
wait, wait in what version does Medusa have the hots for Melloi II?
Drama CD's IIRC
It had something to do with the dismantling of the grail system in the future or something along those lines, according to what i have read in the fate threads on /a/
How can True Neutral characters be more interesting than characters from any other alignment? They don't believe in anything. They're just normal people without any strongly held convictions or ideals, usually because they've never really thought about it. Animals and very young children are True Neutral.