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do you guys like berserk? if so whats your favorite moment?
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>>101675776
what did you think of the zodd teamup?
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>>101675776
Nice boat.
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I recently re-read it all (what to do) and these are my thoughts:

-Miuara is a great writer, the way he had all these events planned years are advanced in such detail is something you miss when you are reading it month to month.
-If it wasn't pre-planned he sure knows how to tie new stuff in smoothly.
-He's probably also a closet pedophile judging by the stuff in the beginning, also is into humiliation porn. Thinking about it he probably just wanted to be a hentai artist but the money isn't as good.

-Griffin can suck a dick though, he really was an asshole straight through. The small panels showing his true emotions which you might miss are really great.

-A lot of sneaky religious criticism which I also missed just reading it. There are a lot of overlapping themes going from arc to arc.

-A lot of submissiveness, either this is a play at how we all look at genders or it's that classic japanese female view.

-This is a really dope series.
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>>101675776
http://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM
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How long have they been on the boat? Was it almost as long as 4chan is old?
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the point that /a/ has missed is that the boat was no boat at all
it is some short of ghost ship a hell cage employed by Griffin meant to capture Guts and lock him up in a time overlap
the boat was always meant to be the secret quiet end to the series
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this and basically every scene about the berserker armor and the rage wolf.

i always get goosebumps during those scenes. so dire.
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>>101676187
>sneaky
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>>101676187
>-He's probably also a closet pedophile judging by the stuff in the beginning, also is into humiliation porn. Thinking about it he probably just wanted to be a hentai artist but the money isn't as good.

well. basically the whole animu/mango industry is somewhat pedo.
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>>101676369
I thought this boat was farnese's fiance's
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my favorite moment was when miura didn't do a new chapter for a fuckign year adn a half
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>>101676400
that moment when the army went full demon mode was insane
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>>101676587
IdolMaster is distracting.
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>>101676421
That whole arc is as obvious as it comes.
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the only two mangas i steal read have been on indefinite hiatus for ages
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>>101675776
fuck you
that is gorgeous though
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I've always had a soft spot for 100 man Guts
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>>101676400
This is absurdly well-drawn, but has it been bugging anyone else that Zodd's severed horn is significantly thinner than his intact one?
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>>101677130
It's because they keep growing unless cut off
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I cant wait for the third and final movie for the golden age arc comes out in the states. does anyone know if the runors are true about them making the manga into movies?
I mean they do include his party in the opening song for the movies.
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>>101678042
I don't really care since the movies suck
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>>101678116
they did cut quite a bit of stuff
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Some enemies cannot be overcome by will alone
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Miura has started a different Manga called Gigantomakhia.
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>>101679388
That has 1 chapter left before he restarts Berserk... eventually.
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>>101678254
Not only did they cut stuff out, they edited in shit that wasn't there to begin with.
Like this shit, Guts breaking free of the apostle who takes his eye and slowly running towards Griffith, before Griffith goes 0 gravity on his ass...
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>>101679388
That's some blazing fast reporting there guy. Wanna know where the pulse is? Under your mother fucking fingers that's where. Keep it up!
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>>101679476
You know, it's entirely possible that some people might not know yet.
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>>101679388
It's about little girls peeing on burly men
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>>101675951
>>101675776
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8skpNxWxQRg
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>>101676187
Amen to everything but the whole griffith being an asshole, humiliation porn thing, and thinking that submissiveness is somehow supposed to be alien to the setting.

All the rape scenes are there to make you feel uncomfortable. It adds to the setting, and a lack of them would make it feel pretty weird considering the time period.

Just because Griffith turned on the main character and his friends doesn't necessarily make him evil, just as through the eyes of all the lowly soldiers Guts murders he might look like a monster. He just wanted a kingdom, fuck knows why, but he really damn wanted so badly he sacrificed everybody helping him to do so. And he has it now it seems, but I don't think everything is going to be roses from now on, especially seeing as how he left one pretty damn powerful angry sacrifice alive. I really want to see Guts give in to the dog and just rip griffiths wonderful kingdom of peace and prosperity apart. Hopefully something will happen in the fairy island to help that along. Miura probably took a break in order to think of the best way to make this happen, shit's not easy since there is so many ways things can go.
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>>101679887
fuck even the people who Guts is helping think he looks more monstrous than the apostles
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>>101679388
>Gigantomakhia

You can tell he's been wanting to draw mechs/giants/whatever for a while. So why not make it WRESTLING MECHS?
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>>101680140
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of beeing a man.
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>>101679887
same guy from post.
I agree to somepart, easily can see submissiveness being a widespread thing in the middle ages, but really from the beginning he made a point of showing varying degrees of rape and humiliation and at some parts it didn't feel necessary.

Really do think he's trying to prove a point though, not that he really enjoys rape although he sure doesn't mind spending several pages of detailed panels on them.

Griffin though I'm going to stick to my opinion. It was his part all along to in some degree sacrifice them all. He didn't know that it would mean slaughter of everyone (or maybe he did who knows, I feel his background and how he got the egg was kept vague on purpose) and every time Guts hinted on leaving the mission he got all upset.

not to mention that when he was rescued and saw Guts had become a mini-version of him, he couldn't stand it. He made it his mission to take everything from him.

It's kind of cool seeing Miura playing with the whole idea of Guts having to either become Griffin and sacrifice casca to reach his dream castle (to kill griffin?) or put it aside and help her (and then kill him probably).

Will be an interesting arc this next one.
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>>101676187
>-He's probably also a closet pedophile judging by the stuff in the beginning, also is into humiliation porn. Thinking about it he probably just wanted to be a hentai artist but the money isn't as good.

There's nothing closet about it, look at all the scenes in his new miniseries with the piss loli.
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>>101680193
He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster.
I see the possiblity of him using the Behelith
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If you look closely, Guts gets Tentacle raped like a dozen times throughout the series.
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>>101680304
He'll never use a Behelit because his entire character is willpower and HUMANITY FUCK YEAH rolled into one.
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>>101680343
Those are his straps.
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>>101679440
I dont mind editing stuff in it doesnt change the story just adds more umph to it. like I personally like that scene where guys almost got his broken blade to his eye and how helpless the situation is.
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>>101680343
Hmmmm any other examples?
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>>101680401
Why does he have straps going in to his ass?
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>>101680430
Looks like they're attached to his pants
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>>101680343
Scans when?

http://www.toranoana.jp/mailorder/article/04/0030/15/91/040030159114.html
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>>101680220
I think you missed a large part of Griffith's character. He never planned to let his men die, and in fact that was one of his greatest weaknesses. He could only deal with people under his command dying by telling himself he'd make it up to them by winning in the end. The Eclipse put him in a situation where he had to choose between being personally responsible for the deaths of his friends, or letting all the previous deaths go unjustified. He didn't agree to the sacrifice because he was an asshole, he did it because he was at his absolute limit in terms of sadness and misery. That's when behelits activate.
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>>101681223
No.
Just no. Im not doing this for the 75th time. You Griffith sympathizers are tiring me out.
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>>101675751
-Because the characters are deep and well developed.
-Other than the hiatus, it's really enjoyable
-Astounding art.
-Tremendous battles.
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>>101680349
well his character is more "FUCK GRIFFITH" also his inner beast is becoming stronger and i don't think Miura will let Guts be happy for more than 1 chapter
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>>101681389
The point of Berserk is that it's morally ambigious. If you're going to label everyone who sees it differently as 'Griffith Sympathizers' and make it your personal mission to get everyone to hate the same characters you hate I think you have an actual serious problem.
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>>101681389
It's probably the same guy in every thread.
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>>101681389
The point of that panel is to show that Griffith feels if he gives up now, it will all have been for nothing. It's supporting the point of the person you're responding to.
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>>101681500
I know it is.
You can see it in his response >>101681475 , its the same response he gives every time, claiming ignorance and how we "cannot see the truth because we are blinded by our feelings".
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>>101681843
That post isn't a part of the conversation about Griffith. If you're getting lots of other people telling you to relax and stop waging a personal war against other people over their interpretation of a story, it's probably because you look fucking insane.
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I love how guts doesnt have any powers. I mean he has the berserk armor but even then it just cancels out the pain. and how every fight is just him overcoming his enemies with brute force unlike shonen jump where everyone just gets a new ability to overcome an obstacle.
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So Berserk seems pretty cool, and I wanted to start reading it, but what is it even about? From what I've picked up, cursed armor, big-ass swords, crossbow arm, and qt witch girls. Also a boat apparently.
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>>101684028
Also, wait, is the art done by the guy who's doing the new art for Onepunch-Man?
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>>101684028
Just read it, dummy, explaining the plot at all would spoil it, as you don't even know what it's about for the first like 15 volumes.
It's good, read it.
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>>101684028
i cant recommend it enough
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>>101680304
He won't use the Behelit, that would require he sacrifice the people in his current party. Guts is very loyal deep down and I could never see him being that much of a hypocrite.
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>>101682743
That's what I love about it. Guts is just strong. Like really stupid strong.
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>>101682743
>>101685165
Guts is just badass.
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>>101684094
No.
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>>101679440
I think they were trying to combine the meeting Guts has with Griffith in the prologue with the eclipse meeting.
It works pretty well to be honest, it didn't feel out of place at all.
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>>101675751
Berserk a shit,
where's my Vinland Saga's 101?
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>>101686091
Don't worry, they'll have to sail to Vinland eventually
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>>101685481
please elaborate
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>>101686233
In the manga prologue, there's a scene where Guts tries to stab Griffith but gets stopped by the amount of pain coming from the brand, when he does manage to swing his sword Griffith uses his force powers on him.
It's pretty much the same thing that happened in the movie except it was implied that it was the psychic powers that was stopping Guts rather than the pain
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great fucking moment
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>>101686351
oh yeah. didnt the pain almost bring him to his knees for being in the presence of gidhand?
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>>101686461
Pretty much.
Casca can't even touch Griffith due to the pain, Guts does manage to swing his sword at least.
It makes me think that the godhand are not as strong as they may seem, if they are afraid of getting hit by the Dragonslayer.
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>>101686567
That doesn't really imply they're afraid of Guts. It just means anyone with a brand can't approach a Godhand member.
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>>101686567
when griffith shows up again in his new body doesnt casca try to approach him? in a non-violent way. im talking about the time when guts fights zodd in front of rickert
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>>101686567
They're not afraid, they're just so godlike they can't be touched.
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>>101681223
sorry for reply.
I don't agree at all, his goal has always been priority number one. He's a great manipulator and he even says it when he's with Charlotte at the fountain, he doesn't respect anyone that doesn't have their own desire. He has no respect for followers, they are his tools.

Or when he's about to get reborn and you see their bridge out of bodies. He's a great manipulator but he doesn't hesitate to pay any price for his own gain.

That's the whole theme, the evil guy (Guts) has good qualities even if he's crazy and the one that seems godlike and nice is deep down a terrible human.
It's the same with the other characters, kings, dukes, priests, knights.

It's quite obvious when Griffin takes over at some point he will be confronted by Guts and expose his true evil.
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>>101686677
Guts was able to get close enough to swing his sword at Griffith and Griffith had to use his force powers to throw Guts away.
>>101686748
Yeah, she tries to touch him but her brand starts bleeding and she starts crying.
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>>101679887

Aww... C'mon, can't moral hypocrites just go away and never come back?
"This and that is wrong" kind of doesn't go well with all the artistic freedom and stuff. But oh, well, we are almost at the point where "1984" is reality, so who am I kidding, right?
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>>101686784
They pretty much beat you over the head with the idea that Griffith hates being responsible for the deaths of his allies. He tries to cover it up so he can keep following his dream, but it doesn't sting him any less. The fact you keep typing his name wrong makes me think you either got a really shitty translation, or English isn't your first language.
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>>101676187
>-Griffin can suck a dick though, he really was an asshole straight through.
What? Miura went out of his way to show how much of a good guy Griffith was.
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>>101686567
>>101686801
Casca could touch Griffith without problem.
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>>101687608
thank you
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>>101687020
It's obvious it's fucking Griffin why would you even want to type out the japnlish spelling of it? Do you walk around saying Gutsu too?
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>>101687020
That pic is for him being dirty from being raped, it's his rape shower not that he feels bad. He even says he's unclean now.
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>>101687451
He states that the dream he builds with corpses, he has no regrets about nor does he feel remorse. What he speaks about when he says unclean was what he did with that governor, taking it up the butt. That is the equivalent of a rapeshower to clean himself of the stench of said buttsex, not his fallen comrades... Reading comprehension man.
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>>101687451
>good guy
>I feel guilty but its irrelevant

Yea sure, that makes him a good guy.
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>>101681389

>Pointing out that a character is complex and slowly becomes evil rather than being a generic evil guy all along
>sympathizers

pick one, dumbass.
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>>101688165
>>101688196
The rape he consented to because he desperately wanted to save the lives of his comrades. He explicitly says he can't stand the idea of being the only one not suffering for his dream, and it's shown later on he refuses to allow himself to feel regret or remorse because if he did he wouldn't be able to make it up to everyone who died on the way. You can hate him as much as you want if you disagree with his motives and decisions, but don't try to turn such a well written character into a two dimensional comic book villain.
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>>101687020
Hehe there's nothing wrong with my English, spelling might not be top notch though.
It's quite clear that his name is Griffin so that's why I spell that, same reason I refuse to say "gutsu".

The picture you refer to I believe is Miuras way of drawing out a rape shower, he says it in the following page that another anon (or you) posted that he's now dirty. He even says it in the second panel here >>101687451 that he has NO REGRET OR REMORSE about laying blood for his dream.

Maybe you should also reread the arc the way I did, it's very easy to forget/miss certain things. But also you are very welcome to have your own belief, only Miura knows the truth after all.
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>>101687608

No she can't. just look at the next page. Her brand bleeds, she starts crying out of pain and falls on her knees.
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>>101688082
There's a significant difference between "Griffin" and "Griffith". Not to mention, Griffith actually sounds like a name. Miura said it was his name too and there's never been a question on it's translation.

Well this is a little funny, did they spell his name right here? I don't know much kanji yet.
http://www.kanjizone.com/kanjiname.aspx?name=Griffith
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>>101688196
You're the one who lacks reading comprehension. It's pretty obvious that he was bullshitting Casca to appear independent and badass, much like when he bullshitted Charlotte at the fountain for the same reason. He just doesn't like admitting that he cares for other people.
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>>101688432
This I did not know, Griffith it is then.
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Honestly? This one. It's subtle and takes place during my favorite arc of the manga. It's incredibly depressing and it kind of encompasses everything about what makes this so tragic. Really gets you to understand a large part of where Griffith was coming from when he chose to sacrifice the Hawks. Really shows how much Guts cares.
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>>101688460
Im not saying that he doesnt care at all, im saying that IN THAT SCENE, it wasn't about his fallen comrades, it was about the fucking gay sex.
God dammit man..
Again, the reading comprehension ball is back in your court.
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>>101688511
>>101688415
He's called Gutsu by the japs because they don't have an isolated s sound in their language. Their strange way of saying things is because they're simply missing the actual sounds in Japanese.

How new are you?
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>>101688460
Where do you get this? One panel where he barely reacts and is retold by casca doesn't prove anything about his character.

If anything he understood in that scene that death is too slow and he gets what he wants faster by taking a bigger risk by sleeping with the duke.

You are not seeing the picture man.
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>>101688082
>>101688415
Why did you respond twice to the same post, with the same points? You're coming apart at the seams, man. Go to bed.
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>>101687020
>>101687451
>>101688460

I wouldn't call Griffith a "good guy" per se, more like he's a hero with serious, crippling flaws. And when his plans fall apart, those flaws are exposed and eat away at him, until there is nothing heroic left in him and he's just a monster. The whole point of the Golden Age Arc is about how the characters developed: Griffith fell from grace to become pure evil, and Guts became hardened, bitter, and broken. The difference is that following the Eclipse, Guts still develops and grows, while Griffith chose to embrace evil and eschew any change.
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>>101688460

He was not emotionless but he always cared about his dream the most. After all, he sacrificed everyone in order to obtain it.
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>>101688621
This is me >>101688415
The other isn't.
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>>101676187
>He's probably also a closet pedophile judging by the stuff in the beginning
>closet
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>>101688626
That's a little presumptuous. Falconia might actually be really great, and the Griffith could have good intentions. It's impossible to say for sure how the story will develop in the future.
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>>101679887
>Just because Griffith turned on the main character and his friends doesn't necessarily make him evil
Actually it DOES make him evil. LITERALLY. It literally made him an incarnation of evil. But that's fine, that's the thing. I totally get why he did it and don't blame him. Truly the most fucked up thing he did was rape Casca before Guts in what I interpret as a show of "I own everything, you have nothing, you are nothing to me".
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>>101688531
This page always gets me. I find it really tragic but funny at the same time... Just look at how condescending Guts sounds here. It's like he's talking to a cosplaying kid. And Griffith looks so pissed off.
>>101688548
It was about both. The washing himself was about the gay sex (Griffith is straight), the explanation, crazy stare and ripping off skin was because of his fallen comrades and his responsibility as a leader.
>>101688604
I get this from the entire Golden Age. Griffith really realized that he hated people dying under his command when the kid died. Casca even said that he changed after that, which, not coincidentally, is also when he whored himself so less people would die.
>>101688626
Griffith became evil when he turned into Femto. That's it. Before that, until that point, he was always a great, good guy. You know, Griffith is my husbando, and I've read the Golden Age over and over again, and I know everything about him. I wouldn't like him if he were evil, but he wasn't.
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>>101688784
this, this so hard.
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>>101678042
According to what I read, the project is intended to adapt the manga series entirely.
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>>101688867
You are so wrong about everything.
You are on the same level of people that play ff7 and love sephirot.
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>>101688867
>Griffith became evil when he turned into Femto. That's it. Before that, until that point, he was always a great, good guy. You know, Griffith is my husbando, and I've read the Golden Age over and over again, and I know everything about him. I wouldn't like him if he were evil, but he wasn't.
He was selfish, and he became so selfish to the point of evil.
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>>101688959
The only way you can be wrong about morality is by actually believing there's an objective right and wrong.
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>>101688707

I guess. Personally I think Falconia will be one of those creepy whitewashed utopias where everyone is just too damn happy and everything seems so fake and artificial.

>>101688784
>>101688867

Exactly. The point is, that's the moment where Griffith becomes full-blown evil. As much as I hate quoting TVAutism, it's the moral Event Horizon. It's his point of no return and a definitive moment. He goes from a complex character with good and bad qualities to full-blown mega-dick with little to no redeeming qualities.

>>101688995

He was a good guy with his moral weaknesses. He wasn't perfect, but he was at least on the brighter side of things.
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>>101689061
>He was a good guy with his moral weaknesses. He wasn't perfect, but he was at least on the brighter side of things.
So was hitler.
It all depens on your point of view.
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>>101688707
Come on dude, Berserk isn't gonna have a fucking cliche Naruto ending like that.
"In the end Sasuke I was actually just protecting you..." "ONI-SAMA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Get real son.

>>101688867
So much deluded worshipping I can't even...
Look at this picture, does it imply he turned evil, or that he allways had it in him?
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>>101689099

Let's not open the Hitler can. I've gotten into three separate arguments this week about the truth regarding the six hundred gorillion, I don't need any more.

>>101689132

It implies that there were seeds of something darker that hadn't fully developed.
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>>101688382
He takes it up the butt, because it's the easier way to further his own cause. Yes, he does it so he doesn't lose more of his followers, but thinking he does it because he cares about those followers is just wrong. He just wants to keep as many of his pawns because he might need them later on.
Not saying he's a complete psychopath who doesn't have any feelings or anything, but he clearly doesn't care about his followers all that much, besides seeing them as valuable and loyal people to be used.
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>>101689132
Changing Griffith from a sympathetic character with understandable motives into an obvious villain ,who is merely rounding up humans to Falconia for the world's biggest sacrifice, would be the cliche Naruto thing to do. Berserk could go in many directions from here, but I'd prefer to see it continue in a moral grey area.
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>>101688707
He's the antichrist, dude. He is praised as savior and seemingly brings peace before inevitable subjugation. He's a member of the Godhand, which openly admits to being evil and having intentions to cause and spread suffering and mayhem.
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>>101680304
Behelits are only used by people tied to destiny. For that reason alone, he'll never be able to use. Guts has been destined to do so many things, and has shit over all those prophecies. Remember, he's the fish fighting against the stream.
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>>101688959
>You are on the same level of people that play ff7 and love sephirot.
Baseless slander, much like most of the shit said about Griffith.
>>101688995
He wasn't particularly selfish. In fact, there's no evidence he was. He never did anything selfish, except trying to prevent Guts from quitting, but that was an exception, because he really liked him. He put his own life in danger many times to save him and others.
>>101689132
I'm NOT deluded. Everything I say is based on facts from the manga itself. As I said, I wouldn't like him if what I were saying about him right now wasn't true. I don't like evil people.

>Look at this picture, does it imply he turned evil, or that he allways had it in him?
That he turned evil. He always put his dream first, but he actually had feelings before turning into Femto. All the people he killed directly or indirectly were volunteers. It was their own choices to fight under him or attack him.
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>>101689373
>All the people he killed directly or indirectly were volunteers. It was their own choices to fight under him or attack him.

True, in a way, but still, there's a difference in willing to die on the battlefield for your commander and being offered as a sacrifice to a bunch of monsters, without even being consulted on that. On that we can agree, I hope?
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>>101689373
You must be trolling.
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>>101689373
Actually, even though they volunteered Griffith was perfectly aware that they joined because he took them, be that through his overwhelming charisma or through force like with Guts. The Godhand even mocks him when he tries to hide behind the excuse that they were all volunteers and that they died on their own. Him coming to terms with sacrificing others that he cared about, which was something he tried to pretend never bothered him 'til just before his transformation, was a big part of the reason he chose to directly sacrifice the Hawks. He always cared and that's what held him back, acknowledging that he cared allowed him to sacrifice (you can only sacrifice those you truly love).

And he didn't ALWAYS put his dream first. Guts made him forget it several times. He literally risked his life for Guts.
>>
>>101689557
Don't act like everyone with a viewpoint that isn't the same as yours must be out to get your goat. You look like somebody who isn't old enough to hold a conversation and respect other peoples' perspectives.
>>
>>101689603
Oh yeah, and in case the charisma thing wasn't obvious it becomes a literal power of his post-revival. He can recruit people just by being. He recruits that young knight who knows nothing about him without even asking.
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>>101689373
>I don't like evil people.
To Guts, Griffith is evil. To any one of his opponents, Griffith is evil. Anyone and everything can be a source of evil. Griffith embraces this aspect of himself (he says "I sacrifice" after being shown himself, indicating that he accepts the necessary consequence of pursuing a dream--corpses all around you). If you side with Griffith, then sure, he's not evil... to you.
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>>101689373
Listen here buddy.
Just because he is feeling abit bummed out about it for a minute or two after doing all this shit does not fucking redeem him!
He had Charlottes uncle, the kings brother assassinated, and when he heard about the kid getting killed too, he smiled.
He then proceeds to kill Charlottes mother, the woman that supposedly is going to be his mother in law. He was ready to do ANYTHING within his realm of conciusness to achieve his dream, no matter the consequenses to his mental state.

So he feels alittle bit down after doing so, but it doesnt change that this is the tip of the iceberg of his actions. He had feelings of course, there is no such thing as a human completly void of all feelings.

And for the record, if he was asked to make the sacrifice before he spiraled out of control, I strongly doubt he would have done it.
However;

Actions speaks louder than words.
>>
>>101689761
>He then proceeds to kill Charlottes mother, the woman that supposedly is going to be his mother in law.
Well, she was a total bitch, not actually Charlotte's mother, and an adulteress on top of that.
>>
How did Griffith say "I sacrifice" without his tongue?
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>>101689520
I agree, but the Eclipse was a different matter anyway. It shouldn't be taken out of context. He actually tried to prevent it and had to be manipulated before he accepted.
>>101689557
No, I'm totally serious. Every time I get into these arguments, I'm serious.
>>101689603
It doesn't matter what the God Hand thought. They REALLY were volunteers. Their reason for volunteering doesn't matter. The Band of the Hawk didn't force people into conscription or massacred innocents.
>And he didn't ALWAYS put his dream first. Guts made him forget it several times. He literally risked his life for Guts.
I know, I even mentioned that. It's evidence he isn't selfish.
>>101689751
>Griffith embraces this aspect of himself (he says "I sacrifice"
He had a moment of weakness because of his year of torture, Guts and Casca, and God Hand manipulation, and his obsessive desire for his dream. Normally, he would have never accepted that deal.
>>101689761
>He had Charlottes uncle, the kings brother assassinated, and when he heard about the kid getting killed too, he smiled.
Charlotte's uncle... you mean the guy who tried to assassinate him first? He was smiling at HIS death, not his son's death.

>He then proceeds to kill Charlottes mother
You mean the same mother who also tried to assassinate him?

>And for the record, if he was asked to make the sacrifice before he spiraled out of control, I strongly doubt he would have done it.
At least we agree on that.
>>
>>101689658
Says the guy that keeps repeating the same shit refusing to let go of griffiths dick
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>>101690060
What makes a man evil is his actions. Not the repercussions of said actions. Now the brightest minds of man has tried to figure out just what evil is, and what drives a man to become evil. Griffith never started out as a completly evil beeing, noone in this world or any other believable universe does, its not as simple as black and white. But Griffith knew he was gonna struggle with his choices, yet he kept on increasing the threshold he was willing to cross, and that is how evil works, its a slippery slope downhill, and he had no intention of stopping his decent.
Every single tyrant has suffered the same things he did, that much im sure of, but that did not stop them, nor did it stop Griffith.
His actions is what defines him, and his actions, which was somewhat justified at times, were still malicious.
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>>101690060
>It doesn't matter what the God Hand thought. They REALLY were volunteers. Their reason for volunteering doesn't matter.
It matters a lot. To think that they volunteered entirely on their own is to avoid taking responsibility over the lives they gave, and to ignore why they gave them. It was no coincidence they volunteered, and while Griffith only forced one out of the very many to join him, the very many all joined because of Griffith, something they repeat several times. Their lives were in his hands because he took them. You say it was perfectly within their right to volunteer? Well, Griffith could have refused them. He didn't, so he's responsible for them, volunteer or no. That's all a very big deal and big reason as to why Miura spent a flashback/illusion/dream segment on Griffith coming to terms with it.
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>>101690060
>Normally, he would have never accepted that deal.
On the contrary, he just had a bit of growing up to do. There was doubt in him because he was still fairly young and sensitive. His willing acceptance into God Hand was for him a transition into maturity. Now he doesn't doubt, and accepts the fact that corpses will continue to pile up around him. And he doesn't need Guts there to reassure him anymore, hence why they're called the Sacrificed.
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>>101690060
ah, also, it wasn't a moment of weakness, don't think for a second that Griffith didn't think long and hard about that decision
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>>101690391
I'm not the person you initially responded to, but I do hate seeing people who aren't mature enough for real conversation come shit up this site. If you can't think outside of your own viewpoint and try to consider the validity of somebody else's argument without letting your personal bias shine through, then you should not be trying to have a discussion with anybody. Arguments require you to listen and consider the oppositions reasoning without behaving in a disingenuous way. If you can't handle that, you are not mature enough to post on an unregulated discussion board.
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>>101690423
But none of Griffith's actions were evil before the Eclipse. Killing people isn't inherently evil. Everything he did was always justified and good overall (again, until the Eclipse). I think that was matters is the result/intention of actions, and not the actions themselves. Killing people and stuff like that isn't inherently wrong, it depends on why you're doing them. Griffith's goal was good, so what he did was justified.
>>101690425
Griffith believed in freedom. Yeah, people found him charismatic and great. So what? He still didn't force them. They made that choice because they could tell how great he was.
>>101690431
>>101690490
It was a moment of weakness. If the anime and movie are accurate in term of time, he took his decision only after a few minutes. Few minutes where a deity was implanting images and ideas into his mind to change his decision.
>but the God Hand said they weren't manipulating him, only revealing what he actually though!
Come on now... Are you really gonna believe those guys? They were manipulating Griffith BECAUSE he didn't want to do it.
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>>101690797
>So what?
>>101690425
>To think that they volunteered entirely on their own is to avoid taking responsibility over the lives they gave, and to ignore why they gave them.
>>
>>101691033
But they did volunteer freely, and Griffith STILL felt responsibility to achieve his goal so their lives wouldn't be lost in vain. They all had their own reasons for giving their lives to his cause, but there wasn't one among them who didn't want to see it fulfilled.
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>>101690797
>Griffith's goal was good, so what he did was justified.

Why was it so good? He wanted a kingdom for himself not for the good of other people.

He cares about his dream and while he's not emotionless that is his main, selfish goal. He decided to sacrifice everyone so he could obtain it. He could have refused, like the Count did, but he didn't.

>Griffith believed in freedom.
Yet he would rather kill Guts than let him leave.

You're not making much sense here.
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>>101690797
>It was a moment of weakness.

It was not a moment of weakness - they gave him the chance to fulfill his dream when all hope of that happening was lost and he took it. Were the events so orchestrated that this was the most likely outcome? Yes. But in the end Griffith still did make that choice himself.
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>>101690797
>>101690797
>It was a moment of weakness.

They gave him the chance to fulfill his dream when all hope of that happening was lost and he took it. Were the events so orchestrated that this was the most likely outcome? Yes. But in the end Griffith still did make that choice himself.
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>>101691840
>Why was it so good? He wanted a kingdom for himself not for the good of other people.
I think it would have been for the good of other people too. Leaders from lower classes are usually good, and much nicer than those born of the nobility, like Gaozu of Han, a Chinese emperor born a peasant.

Griffith didn't seem fond of nobles in general either. I bet he would have really improved the life of the people.

> He decided to sacrifice everyone so he could obtain it.
Taken out of context. I already explained what happened at the Eclipse. At first he DID want to refuse.

>Yet he would rather kill Guts than let him leave
That was an exception, and I already admitted it earlier here >>101689373
And by the way, he lost the duel BECAUSE he didn't want to kill Guts. Read the duel chapter again. He went out of his way to try to not slice Guts' head.

>>101692045
Yes, he made that choice, but it was still a moment of weakness. Torture+hopelessness+Guts and Casca together while he liked both+psychic convincing from the God Hand.

It's amazing he didn't crack sooner...
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>>101690797
>>101692166

You're treating Griffith like he's Darth Vader and the fall from grace was some stupid impulsive thing. In reality he's a cold, calculating bastard. He chose to be Femto not because he was acting on impulse but because the Godhand made a logical, calculating argument that he chose to accept. And in the end, no matter how noble he was before the Eclipse, he consciously, rationally chose to throw all of that away. He wasn't tricked or deceived, he actually made a choice. He is solely responsible for everything that happened.
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>>101692166
>At first he DID want to refuse.
Actually this is wrong.
Just before the eclipse happened and he was gonna off himself in the lake he found the behelith. He knew some bad shit was gonna go down from the visions he had in his cell. He was ready to accept his fate whatever it was, but it was Guts who made him waver from his dream, but to achieve his dream, he was ready to do anything.
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>>101692332
>You're treating Griffith like he's Darth Vader and the fall from grace was some stupid impulsive thing. In reality he's a cold, calculating bastard.
Griffith is calculating (but not cold), but he can also be impulsive. Proof: duel with Guts and then fucking Charlotte. Are you gonna tell me those were cold, rational decisions?
>>101692406
If I'm wrong, then WHY did he try to tell Guts and the Band to stay away? See >>101690060

He knew bad shit was gonna happen, and he didn't want it to happen to them, despite everything they did to him.
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>>101692511

Griffith is impulsive only when his plans fall apart. When his calculating demeanor is broken and exposed, he gets desperate. That's his weakness.

But that had nothing to do with the eclipse. The Godhand didn't win Griffith over by breaking him down until he went full-retard, they actually played to his scheming, strategic mindset.
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>>101692166
>I think it would have been for the good of other people too.

It may have been good, we don't know. But that is not the reason why he did it. He wanted to be a king because he wanted to do something great on his own.

>And by the way, he lost the duel BECAUSE he didn't want to kill Guts.

He was no match for Guts at the time. He planned to deflect his sword and then to wound him (or kill him if Guts' sword alter his arc). It is was the only choice he had, as he says himself. However, his sword broke as Guts' swing was too strong and in the end Guts had to hold back his swing so he didn't kill him.

>That was an exception

It was no exception. Everything he did he did for his dream. Sleeping with Genon? For his dream. Fighting the war? For his dream. Seducing Charlotte? For his dream. Sacrificing everyone? For his dream.
Loosing Guts would mean loosing his best soldier so he would not risk that happening.

>At first he DID want to refuse.

When did he try to refuse? He did not. And even if he did he still decided to accept in the end and that is what matters.
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>>101692980
>He was no match for Guts at the time. He planned to deflect his sword and then to wound him (or kill him if Guts' sword alter his arc). It is was the only choice he had, as he says himself. However, his sword broke as Guts' swing was too strong and in the end Guts had to hold back his swing so he didn't kill him.

To illustrate.
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>>101692511
>If I'm wrong, then WHY did he try to tell Guts and the Band to stay away?

He just tried to kill himself and they were rushing to take him back to them. To his life as a cripple that he could not bear to face again. that is why he said "stay back".

And what did they do to him? Saved him from the prison?
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>>101692798
>Griffith is impulsive only when his plans fall apart.
>But that had nothing to do with the eclipse.
It has everything to do with it. ALL his plans had failed.
>>101692980
>It may have been good, we don't know.
I do know. But I won't ask anybody to believe me on that one, since I have no proof.

>
He was no match for Guts at the time. He planned to deflect his sword and then to wound him (or kill him if Guts' sword alter his arc). It is was the only choice he had, as he says himself. However, his sword broke as Guts' swing was too strong and in the end Guts had to hold back his swing so he didn't kill him.
Yep, and I never denied any of that. Notice how he specifically wanted to wound him, and based his plan on that.

>Loosing Guts would mean loosing his best soldier so he would not risk that happening.
Guts was different. Are you really gonna deny that? He saw him as way more than just another pawn.

>When did he try to refuse? He did not.
When he tried to get them to stay back because he knew what was gonna happen. And if he really wanted to sacrifice them from the start, why didn't he accept right away when it was proposed? Why did it take convincing?
>>101693210
No, that's wrong. The Eclipse had already started when he said that. Go check again.
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>>101693210
>>101693380
I forgot to reply to
>And what did they do to him? Saved him from the prison?

Fucking each other behind his back, considering quitting him to go live together, and being pretty condescending with him
>>
How is the Dark Horse translation?
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>>101693464
Two of his friends had sex and might've wanted to quit the Band. Also, they weren't condescending, they were worried about him and he was in a pretty bad state, so you can't expect them to act as if everything was okay.
Anyway, I don't see how this is really something that Griffith had that much to do with, considering he wanted to fuck Charlotte (and did) and didn't really show that much interest in Casca.
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>>101693380

All his plans had failed, but he wasn't panicking. He was past panic and back at the drawing board, choosing what to do. That was the mindset the Godhand took advantage of. Had he been in full "OH SHIT" mode they'd have taken a different approach. Griffith was in a fully aware state of mind when they approached him. You can't deny that.
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>>101693596
>>101693596
>Also, they weren't condescending
Yes, they were, especially Guts. Look at this. It's as if he's talking to a little kid. And Griffith can see that. Look at how angry he is.

>and didn't really show that much interest in Casca.
He dreamed about living with her after he fell off the wagon. Griffith always liked Casca a lot.
>>101693597
>You can't deny that.
Yes, I can. He was a crippled stuck in a really fucked up dimension full of demons. They ALL were panicking.
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>>101693822

He wasn't panicking after he knew he was safe and knew what the hell was going on. The inside-out reality had nothing to do with his state of mind making the decision.
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>>101693380

>I do know.
>I have no proof.
My point exactly. We don't know because there is no proof.

>Notice how he specifically wanted to wound him, and based his plan on that.
Notice how Guts never wanted to hurt him either. He could have killed him easily if he hadn't stopped his sword. Griffith didn't loose because he wasn't trying to kill Guts. He lost because Guts was a superior fighter.

>Guts was different. Are you really gonna deny that? He saw him as way more than just another pawn.
He saw him as his best asset. His trump card. After Griffith's dream was ruined he blamed Guts for it. He became brighter than his dream in those moments.

>Fucking each other behind his back, considering quitting him to go live together, and being pretty condescending with him
They were not cheating on Griffith by fucking each other. They were considering staying with Griffith even though he would never be a warrior again and they were gentle with him all along.

>No, that's wrong. The Eclipse had already started when he said that. Go check again.
It is at the very moment guts touches him that the Beherit triggers. He did not want to live the life he saw in his vision which was all he had to hope for if they took him back. Which is why he tried to kill himself.

Not to be rude, but you seem somewhat naive about the whole thing. Mind telling me how old are you.
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>>101693822
Well, everybody is condescending to people who are sick/crippled whatever. You, nor Griffith, should have blamed them from being condescending toward him at that point. I understand that from his point of view it's difficult to look past that behavior and Guts & Casca's happiness, seeing as he had just lost everything he had worked his life for, but does that justify his eventually killing all his friends/raping Casca etc.? I don't think it does.

But now I can't even really remember if you justified him doing all those things, or if you just said he wasn't necessarily an evil person at that point.
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>>101694027
Not him and I agree with everything you said, but that last sentence sounded rude, whether you prefaced it with 'Not to be rude' or not.
I expect him to be an adult at the very least and he seems to have put a lot of thought in his opinions, even though I don't agree with them.

Unrelated: Why do Berserk threads have some of the more reasonable discussion on /a/?
Almost all threads about other subjects have huge amounts of shitposts and I don't think that the Berserk fandom (horrible word, I know) is small or necessarily consists only of mature people.
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>>101694238

Actually I was a bit charmed by the way s/he was reasoning... s/he reminded me of myself when I was younger and that is why I asked. S/He need not reply if he does not like my question.

I believe that great and complex manga inspire great devotion and that may be the reason for more 'mature' discussions.
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>>101693893
I think he still was panicking a bit. Griffith is cool-headed, but not THAT much.
>>101694027
>Notice how Guts never wanted to hurt him either.
I never denied that. Guts liked Griffith a lot too.

>He lost because Guts was a superior fighter.
Actually, because his sword broke due to Griffith making a mistake hoping to not kill Guts.

>He saw him as his best asset. His trump card.
He saw him as a friend.

>They were not cheating on Griffith by fucking each other.
Technically no, because Griffith wasn't officially engaged with either of them, but they were still pretty rude in exposing themselves like that in front of him. Casca had always been Griffith's main fangirl, and suddenly Griffith noticed she cared more about Guts than about him, in his darkest hour.

>It is at the very moment guts touches him that the Beherit triggers.
Yes, but the Eclipse started before. The sun was blocked, apostles were approaching from the lake.

>He did not want to live the life he saw in his vision which was all he had to hope for if they took him back. Which is why he tried to kill himself.
What are you talking about...?

>Mind telling me how old are you.
I'm almost 23.
>>101694050
It's especially hard for a prideful man like Griffith.
>>101694432
It's "she" if you absolutely want to be accurate, not that it matters anyway.
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>>101694238
Because the sex and rape scenes are done in a way that makes it hard to fap to them. This scares softcore shitposters away.
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>>101694565

You can think that, but you'll have to accept that you're actually wrong.
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>>101694238
I would assume he asked the question because the one defending Griffiths actions seems to completly rule out the idea that Griffith was putting on a mask for his troops.

Step 1. You make a connection with your troops on an emotional level, so you seem just as human as they are.

Griffith was a cunning motherfucker, and he was very well read. He knew exactly how to manipulate those around him and what's to stop him from doing so with his soldiers?
The benefit of doing so raises the morale and of course it makes them very loyal to you, to the point of them willing to sacrifice themselves for your dream.

People in this world lie. People in all worlds lie, its the nature of man. We lie every day, believe it or not.
You could say that Griffith was a psychopath (excuse the uneducated use of mental disorders, as the correct term is "antisocial personality disorder" but it somehow seems not to fit) and psychopats act upon the expected response of others, not on emotions. Somehow Griffith ALLWAYS seems to act exactly how he has to, strange huh? The only time he deviated from this pattern was when Guts left. Only strenghtening my beliefs that Griffith was a psychopath.
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>>101694565
>He saw him as a friend.

Though I agree with you on this, at the same time, there is that moment of Griffith talking to Charlotte about how his followers can never truly be his friends because they are not his equals for not following their own dreams.

Then, when Guts leaves because he wants to be his own man only to truly become Griffith's friend, he doesn't want to accept that. I think it's in part because Griffith doesn't know what real friendship is or at least not until after Guts has left.

But that leads to
>Technically no, because Griffith wasn't officially engaged with either of them, but they were still pretty rude in exposing themselves like that in front of him. Casca had always been Griffith's main fangirl, and suddenly Griffith noticed she cared more about Guts than about him, in his darkest hour.
if he truly thought of Guts as his friend after Guts left (which is something that's not in any way sure, because of the torture and everything Griffith had to endure in that period he simultaneously hated and loved Guts), shouldn't he support their relationship then?

Basically what I'm saying is that Griffith doesn't seem to understand what friendship and love is and seems to contradict himself.

Totally unrelated:
Where are all these 23 year old girls that have good taste in animu and mango when I go looking for them? ;_;
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>>101675751
Obligatory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoJgkgRxUfc

captcha: shipmen genius
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>>101694565

>Actually, because his sword broke due to Griffith making a mistake hoping to not kill Guts.
Griffith says: "there's no other technique I can use to beat him now, if successful even Guts wouldn't escape unharmed." He used the only option that had any chance of working and it failed.

>He saw him as a friend.
Griffith explained what was a friend for him. Someone who would be his equal. That is why Guts decided to leave. He wanted to do something by himself so that, one day Griffith would see him as his equal.

>Technically no, because Griffith wasn't officially engaged with either of them, but they were still pretty rude in exposing themselves like that in front of him. Casca had always been Griffith's main fangirl, and suddenly Griffith noticed she cared more about Guts than about him, in his darkest hour.
Well Griffith never made any attempt to male Casca his woman. He could have done it easily as she loved him before.
Griffith was frustrated because everything was out of his grasp ow, but you cannot blame Guts and Casca for his frustration. He brought everything on himself when he lost his cool and went to see Charlotte recklessly.

>Yes, but the Eclipse started before. The sun was blocked, apostles were approaching from the lake.
They were gathering because the ceremony was about to begin. Guts notices apotles before Griffith.
It is at the moment when Guts touches him and tries to take him back - to his life as a cripple. that Griffiths emotions reach peak and Beherit activates.

>What are you talking about...?
Griffith couldn't bare the thought of living the life he saw in his vision (living with Casca) so he tries to kill himself.

>It's "she" if you absolutely want to be accurate, not that it matters anyway.
It does not matter. Still, it is nice to know that even girls like Berserk so much!
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>>101694730
>>101695088
I'll reply to both of you at the same time because it's all very related.

I think that why you (and most people) think all these things about Griffith is because of a big misunderstanding. You actually think he's a sociopath trying to seem like a good guy. The truth is, it's actually the complete opposite. Griffith is an emotive guy trying to appear like a badass sociopath.

Think about it. Take the bath scene, for example. Griffith tries his best to convince Casca that the sex he had was purely for cold, logical reasons, but Casca knows that it's actually because of the guilty/empathy he feels. She said that he changed, that he has a huge burden, etc...

Another example. The fountain speech with Charlotte. He tries to convince her that his comrades are just pawns, not friends, that he doesn't care about them, etc... But that's not consistent with his actions. That's not consistent with him changing because a boy died, whoring himself, and freaking out over losing his friendship (which he claims doesn't exist) with Guts.

Griffith is way more emotive than people believe it. He just ACTS like he has a mind of steel.

>Totally unrelated:Where are all these 23 year old girls that have good taste in animu and mango when I go looking for them? ;_;
Always on 4chan. I hate going out and stuff like that. I'm also ugly and you wouldn't want me anyway.
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>>101695515
Was that supposed to be deleted? Should I reply or wait for another supposed post? I just don't know.
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>>101695561

But no one is saying that he is emotionless. He, very obviously, has emotions as your examples show. But he still does things that will get him closer to his dream. That is his main driving force, not his friendship with his comrades.

Also I manage to delete my own (very large) post earlier. Any way to undo that?
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>>101695561
I guess I never though about the other possibility like that, I always just assumed that he was a psychopath because that was the easier way to deal with what he eventually became.
Going from psychopath with barely any feelings to almost evil incarnate is easier than a decent human being with deep feelings for his comrades becoming so hollow and frustrated with life that he felt his only/best option was to become Femto is even more depressing.

Also, we're on 4chan, aren't we all ugly and think noone wants us?

>>101695126
>Not
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH94YuQtg-8

Shit nigger, what are you doing.
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>>101695970
Accident! If you have it saved do repost it and reply.
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So what will this guy's role be?
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>>101696075
You could just go on foolz and copypaste it.
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>>101695561
I fucking knew you were a girl.
Anyways, you seem missinformed about what I mean with psychopaths.
Psychopathy and sociopathy are made up terms created by pop-culture and has never, nor will it ever, be regarded as a mental dissorder in the DSM V or the ICD (google it if you dont know what it is).
I will not refer to Griffith as a psychopath anymore, but with the correct tearm: "Antisocial personality dissorder" or APD.
Now, you seem to think people suffering from APD are void of emotions. This is completly wrong as they only have a reduced emotional spectrum. They do not feel regret, remorse, sympathy or empathy. They also never, or very rarely, act upon emotional impulses, but they act the way they think others would expect them to. People suffering from APD have difficulties making long term plans, and change their route all the time.

Now take this information and apply it to Griffith. You will see it fits rearly perfect. He has never shown sympathy or empathy towards anyone else, but yet we see him feel sad for a child who died for his dream.
He feels sad because he feels responsible, again, within his emotional spectrum. But say, Guts told him about how he killed his father, he would not feel anything, because its not related to Griffith.
Griffith is also always composed, and acts just as he has to around whoever to gain their trust and admiration. Again, this is a trait of APD. He felt obvious disgust towards his buttsex partner, yet his partner said it was the most memorable night he has ever had, so Griffith has probably acted out his role just as he saw fit. He also states to Charlotte that whole friends business, but when it comes into play for him personally, he does not stay true to his words.
And then, have you EVER seen Griffith admit he feels remorse, or regret about the path he has walked?
NEVER has he stated that.
To be continued.
>>
>>101696027
I don't deny anything of what you just said. What I deny is that Griffith is a psychopath/is evil/is selfish. The evidence just doesn't show that.
>>101696039
>I guess I never though about the other possibility like that
Then please consider it. I have no doubt that it's the truth. It's obvious that Griffith pre and post eclipse are TOTALLY different.

>Also, we're on 4chan, aren't we all ugly and think noone wants us?
Not all, but a lot, yes. To be honest, I probably wouldn't date anyone from here either. And I certainly wouldn't want to date myself if I were a guy. I'd rather just make friends and keep love for my husbando.
>>101696075
Ok, hold on.
>>
>>101694565

>Actually, because his sword broke due to Griffith making a mistake hoping to not kill Guts.
Griffith says: "there's no other technique I can use to beat him now, if successful even Guts wouldn't escape unharmed." He used the only option that had any chance of working and it failed.

>He saw him as a friend.
Griffith explained what was a friend for him. Someone who would be his equal. That is why Guts decided to leave. He wanted to do something by himself so that, one day Griffith would see him as his equal.

>Technically no, because Griffith wasn't officially engaged with either of them, but they were still pretty rude in exposing themselves like that in front of him. Casca had always been Griffith's main fangirl, and suddenly Griffith noticed she cared more about Guts than about him, in his darkest hour.
Well Griffith never made any attempt to male Casca his woman. He could have done it easily as she loved him before.
Griffith was frustrated because everything was out of his grasp ow, but you cannot blame Guts and Casca for his frustration. He brought everything on himself when he lost his cool and went to see Charlotte recklessly.

>Yes, but the Eclipse started before. The sun was blocked, apostles were approaching from the lake.
They were gathering because the ceremony was about to begin. Guts notices apotles before Griffith.
It is at the moment when Guts touches him and tries to take him back - to his life as a cripple. that Griffiths emotions reach peak and Beherit activates.

>What are you talking about...?
Griffith couldn't bare the thought of living the life he saw in his vision (living with Casca) so he tries to kill himself.

>It's "she" if you absolutely want to be accurate, not that it matters anyway.
It does not matter. Still, it is nice to know that even girls like Berserk so much!
>>
>>101696273
>they do not feel regret, remorse, sympathy or empathy
They don't not feel them, they just have an abnormally limited capacity for them.
>>
>>101696332
Thank you for reposting that! Even though it is full of errors and poor grammar.
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>>101696273
I'm actually confused about Griffith's issue with sleeping with the baron dude.

I thought he did it so he could feed his soldiers or some shit because he was running low on griffithbucks.
>>
>>101696273
The only part of Griffiths charater that seems to differ from a person with APD is that he has a long term goal. This is very uncharacteristic for people with APD.

He lies, he decieves and he manipulates throughout the Golden Age arc, and he regrets none of it, because the only thing that matters to HIM, is HIS dream.

Now as you can see, people who are like Griffith can very well show emotions, they can be sad, they can be happy, they can be anything really. But they can not feel anything for anyone else who are not directly invovled with him. This is what emotions we see from Griffith throughout the manga, and this is the basis of my characterization of Griffith.
Wall of text, end.

Yes, I'm at my last semster in a bachelor in psychology. (Im writing my bachelors on how lack of leadership can foster evil intentions, so I know abit about the subject)
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>>101696273
He is not emotionless. He was obviously troubled by his experience with Gennon, but he saw it as a necessary step towards acquiring his dream. That is what made it worth it.
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>>101696332
Ok, so.

>Griffith explained what was a friend for him. Someone who would be his equal.
Griffith was lying, as I explained above. It was all an act to appear cool in front of a girl.

>Well Griffith never made any attempt to male Casca his woman. He could have done it easily as she loved him before.
That's true, I admit that. I don't know why he didn't.

>Guts notices apotles before Griffith.
I doubt it, since he was facing the sun, which is where they came from.

>Griffith couldn't bare the thought of living the life he saw in his vision (living with Casca) so he tries to kill himself.
That's wrong. He actually liked that vision, it was a fantasy. He even said during it that this life "isn't so bad". He tried to kill himself after because it wasn't reality.
>>
My favourite moment will be the scene when Casca becomes un-fuckedsilly and recognizes Guts. Then I can drop the manga until I see threads in /a/ about Griffith dying. Then I shall pick up the manga again and spend a glorious afternoon reading the chapters between Casca's awakening and Griffith's death. Then, and only then, I will die of old age.

I'm seeing this happening around january 27th, 2083. The work shall be picked up by a relative of the current author, in case the author dies.
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>>101696273
>>101696578
I know about all of this already. I know that psychopathy/sociopathy/APD all refer to basically the same thing.

Griffith isn't like that.
>They do not feel regret, remorse, sympathy or empathy.
He felt all of those at least once.

>They also never, or very rarely, act upon emotional impulses, but they act the way they think others would expect them to.
So do I, and I'm not APD. I'm just cool-headed in general.

>People suffering from APD have difficulties making long term plans, and change their route all the time.
>I never betray my dream

> He felt obvious disgust towards his buttsex partner, yet his partner said it was the most memorable night he has ever had, so Griffith has probably acted out his role just as he saw fit.
Then all whores are APD? They do that too.

>He also states to Charlotte that whole friends business, but when it comes into play for him personally, he does not stay true to his words.
Because he was bullshitting her to appear badass.

>And then, have you EVER seen Griffith admit he feels remorse, or regret about the path he has walked?
Yes. During a talk with Guts, and during the vision in the Eclipse.
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>>101696479
That was the excuse he used, but it was actually because of empathy towards his comrade. He sold himself for them.

>>101696578
The only part of Griffith's character that seems to coincide with ADP people is that he likes to put on masks to deceive people (and sometimes kill them).
>>
>>101694238
it´s not just berserk, manga threads are better and more reasonable by default.
>>
>>101696734

>Griffith was lying, as I explained above. It was all an act to appear cool in front of a girl.
But wouldn't he let guts go if he considered him his friend and equal? He saw him as his most precious tool. He says: If I can't have him, it doesn't matter if he dies. Not something you would do to a friend is it?

>That's true, I admit that. I don't know why he didn't.
Because Casca couldn't give him what he wanted. unlike Charlotte.

>I doubt it, since he was facing the sun, which is where they came from.
We don't see him react to them. He reacts when he sees Guts approaching. And we know that Guts sees them as they start appearing behind him.

>That's wrong. He actually liked that vision, it was a fantasy. He even said during it that this life "isn't so bad". He tried to kill himself after because it wasn't reality.
But it was the only reality that he could hope for. Casca already decided that she would stay with him. And after he wakes up and sees how wretched he is, broken arm and everything, he decides to kill himself.
>>
>>101696578
Something I forgot to include is how people with APD has a very strong need to seem like perfect people to others they do not trust.
How others percieve them is very important to them and they will never reveal their hidden identity to others because they are scared of how they will react to it.
This is displayed when Griffith asks Guts if he thinks he is evil, becuase they have a very flawed view on themselves, as broken. He also says something similar to Caska, I believe during his rape-bath.
Humans are like gems, they are never perfect, and if you ever come across a perfect gem, it's guaranteed fake.

>>101697137
>Because he was bullshitting her to appear badass.
He does not seem like a badass to her, she states that SHE thought he was just some kind of brute who fights for a living, but when he speaks to her, she is baffled by how refined and philosophical he is. How did you missinterpet this? The whole points of the conversation was for him to demonstrate how much of a gentleman he can be.

And to your suggestions about whores suffering from APD or how you somehow act in a similar matter, never will someone who suffers from a mental dissorder show all symptoms, but a majority of the ones associated with it.
Because you, or someone else share some of the symptoms does NOT mean you suffer from it (see the gem analogy, noone is perfect).
It is the combination of the majority of the symptoms that adds up to the dissorder.
Griffith shows a majority of the symptoms, hence I conclude he is suffering from APD.

>He felt all of those at least once.
When? I dont remember that. Was it truely genuine?
>>
Every single Berserk thread spirals into a Griffith morality debate

I miss updates

I miss Puck being cute instead of looking like a dumb blob all the time
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>>101696867
We don't know if she's gonna be fixed yet.
>>101697333
>But wouldn't he let guts go if he considered him his friend and equal?
Why would you want to let your best friend go?

>He says: If I can't have him, it doesn't matter if he dies. Not something you would do to a friend is it?
I don't see why not. Have you ever seen him saying that about someone else? It's proof he really liked him.

>Because Casca couldn't give him what he wanted. unlike Charlotte.
Yes, but he didn't know about Charlotte until later, during which he would have had plenty of time to do Casca.

>We don't see him react to them. He reacts when he sees Guts approaching.
Even then, it's obvious that he knew what was going on. He specifically says "if you touch me now...", not "if you bring me back..." or anything of the sort.

>But it was the only reality that he could hope for.
Wrong. In his vision, he's still healthy and handsome. Griffith couldn't hope for that since he perfectly knew he'd never be like that again.
>>101697587
>The whole points of the conversation was for him to demonstrate how much of a gentleman he can be.
Both aren't mutually exclusive. You can be a badass and a gentleman. This is the style he was obviously going for.

>And to your suggestions about whores suffering from APD or how you somehow act in a similar matter
It was a counter-example. I know that most of them don't, and neither do I.

>Griffith shows a majority of the symptoms, hence I conclude he is suffering from APD.
Except he just doesn't. He wants to make people think that he does, but he doesn't.
>>101697665
>I miss Puck being cute instead of looking like a dumb blob all the time
THIS.
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>>101697665
>Puck being cute instead of looking like a dumb blob all the time

Same here, he's was so adorable and really added contrast to the dark and ugly world
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>>101697665
They have nothing to discuss so they just assert their IRL values and because they can't accept the fact that the manga they hail as very gritty and for mature boys only was put on hiatus in favor of playing a very manchild bait game idolm@ster.
>>
Was the Fairy demon girl a lesbian?
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>>101697892
>Except he just doesn't. He wants to make people think that he does, but he doesn't.
And you have absolutely no proof to back up your claims other than blind affection and as another anon said, a rather naive trust in him.
Hell, just look at the picture you posted, why would he "act" like that towards someone who is about to die. Those eyes are his true eyes, the eyes of a predator looking at his prey.
And again, when does he show genuine remorse towards the path he has walked?
>>
Just finished reading it a few days ago(glad that it has been getting more discussion than usual the last few days).

I don't really have a singular favorite moment, but one that stuck out to me was the moment that Griffith and Zod make it to the top of Grinishka and Griffith transforms into Femto.

To me it was a confirmation that Griffith is hiding how rotten he really is to everyone else and that his heroism is nothing more than a facade.

Same with having his demons attack Sherke's mentor for no reason other than to remove a remote threat.

To you people saying Griffith is not evil. He is. He's not a cliched chaotic evil. But he destroys anything that gets in the way of his goal. Thats what ultimately pushed him over the edge at the eclipse. He comes to realize that his friendship and camaraderie had been holding him back so he sacrifices the Band along with Guts. And then Rapes Casca just to torture Guts.
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>>101698399
>nd you have absolutely no proof to back up your claims other than blind affection and as another anon said, a rather naive trust in him.
Except I do. I already proved that here: >>101695561

>Hell, just look at the picture you posted, why would he "act" like that towards someone who is about to die.
She tried to kill him first. Why should he have remorse or sympathy in that context? She started it, and so did Julius. Griffith doesn't kill except in self-defense.

>And again, when does he show genuine remorse towards the path he has walked?
When the little boy died, and when he had a vision during the Eclipse, and those pics >>101697137 >>101689373 >>101688460 >>101687451 >>101687020 >>101681223

If all of that isn't empathy, then I just don't get empathy. Or maybe YOU don't.
>>101698452
Please don't confuse Griffith with Femto.
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>>101698452
>Same with having his demons attack Sherke's mentor for no reason other than to remove a remote threat.

That actually pissed me off so much
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>>101698742
Griffith is his mask. Femto is his true self personified. They are the same character. Don't act as if they are not to convenience your argument.

>>101698762
What pisses me off is how Griffith apologists gloss over such blatant acts of evil when trying to defend him.
>>
>>101698859
>Don't act as if they are not to convenience your argument.
I'm not. I'm being totally honest here. I'm concerned about the truth, not about "winning" a discussion at all cost.

If Griffith were actually evil, then I simply wouldn't like him. It's as simple as that. But I've read the manga several times, and watched the anime too, and I know he wasn't. I have no doubt.
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Best neo Band of The Hawk member coming through
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>>101699089
But he is. He destroys everything between him and his goal. "Griffith" post eclipse is just a mask that Femto wears so that he can further his plans. The moment he's out of sight of everyone he turns back into femto to finish of Krinishka.

When faced with death he sacrificed the very people who gave so much to save him just to continue his dream. Whether he truly "regrets" it or not is irrelevant. A good person doesn't destroy so much for personal gain.
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>>101699089
This is the face Griffith makes when noone is watching.
Does this look like the face of mercy?
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>>101699282
I think that there's been a misunderstanding between us. I know that Griffith post-eclipse is Femto with a mask. Everything I said in the thread was about Griffith pre-eclipse.
>>101699338
Why would he have mercy for someone who tried to assassinate him?
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>>101699404
The fucking innocent child did no harm towards him and ended up dead as a result.
This does not bother Griffith one bit.
A normal person would feel guilty, sad or/and very uneasy because the plan went so very wrong.
He sees it as an opportunity to further strengthen the theory that it was a malicous act of a rival empire, not a retalliation.
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>>101699404
>Griffith pre-eclipse.
Fair enough. Griffith pre-eclipse was still an anti-hero at best. He was definitely dark gray on the moral scale and the eclipse was his fall to darkness.
>>
I Love the part when that guy dies
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>>101699582
Why would it bother him at all? He didn't even know Adonis. I don't think he has ever met him. Besides, it was Guts' fault, not his'.
>>101699596
Actually, he was Neutral Good on the alignment scale. He always did the right things, but didn't care about whether they were accomplished lawfully or unlawfully.
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>>101699753
>Besides, it was Guts' fault, not his
By that logic, it was not Julius' fault the attempt on his life was made, it was the archer who fired the arrow.
And a child does not bear the sins of his father, if you think he shouldn't care then you have some serious issues.
Would you not feel sorry if someone did some shit to you, and their 10 year old son got the punishment instead of the perpetrator?
Then you are truely fucked up and I now completly understand why you view Griffith as a completly good guy.
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>>101699753
>it was Guts' fault, not his
Yeah because sending a berserker in to do a stealth assassination wasn't a flawed plan. Also notice how he doesn't care that Guts' fucked up that bad. At all. Not worried a bit.
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>>101699596
Also, keep in mind that I still consider Griffith one character throughout the entire series. Griffith casts aside his humanity and friends for power. Whether he was evil or not doesn't matter. Because in the end Griffith falls to darkness, and in the end it is Griffith who is reborn as Femto. He's the same person, just in a new form.

>>101699753
The alignment scale is not a literary tool. Don't use it as one. And no, Griffith didn't do things for the sake of good and evil, he still did everything to further his goals, he just had morals to go along with them. He still regretted his actions at that point and had things that he wouldn't do(Sacrificing his friends). But his regrets didn't stop him from doing dirty deeds to further his goals. He had a politician killed simply because he opposed him.
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>>101699338
>Does this look like the face of mercy?
Can you allow yourself to be mercyful when you try to survive at a court where every conservative wants to assasinate you?
I still belief that Femto/Griffith works towards his dream of having a kingdom and that he will not round up all inhabitants as sacrifices.
So from the point of the ordinary people Guts will be the hawk of darkness who fights against the benevolent ruler of Falconia Griffith.
Also I'm interested on Guts reaction to the cooperation of apostles and normal soldiers
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>>101699753
>Sends a loud, giant sword wielding soldier to play assassin
>Instead his actual two assassins

Griffith was planning for a massacre to happen
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>>101700044
Pretty much.
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>>101699934
>Yeah because sending a berserker in to do a stealth assassination wasn't a flawed plan. Also notice how he doesn't care that Guts' fucked up that bad. At all. Not worried a bit.
Firstly Guts wasn't that much of a berserker back than and more of an elite soldier.
Second he didn't saw Guts before the message came
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>>101700123
>secondly he didn't saw Guts before the message came
That's what I mean. He had no idea if he even fully escaped, and he gave no shits. Also he was totally a fucking berserker back then. His thing was randomly going in alone and slicing up entire troops.
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>>101697892

>Why would you want to let your best friend go?
Because that is what he wished to do. It was selfish to try to make him stay when he obviously didn't want that. If you don't do what I say I will kill you. I don't see how you could think of someone as a friend and still say that. He was his best tool. And no one other than Guts wanted to leave. Who says that Griffith wouldn't do the same with them (try to keep them by force)?

>Yes, but he didn't know about Charlotte until later, during which he would have had plenty of time to do Casca.
What I meant was that doing Casca wouldn't get him any closer to his dream which is why he didn't "do" her (unlike Charlotte or Gennon).

>Even then, it's obvious that he knew what was going on. He specifically says "if you touch me now...", not "if you bring me back..." or anything of the sort.
How is it obvious? Why did the Beherit trigger when Guts touched him? Why at that exact moment? Because Guts would have taken him back to his friends.

>Wrong. In his vision, he's still healthy and handsome. Griffith couldn't hope for that since he perfectly knew he'd never be like that again.
He is crippled in the vision. Casca is feeding him and he cannot talk or stand up.
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>>101699921
>By that logic, it was not Julius' fault the attempt on his life was made, it was the archer who fired the arrow.
No, because Julius ordered the attack directly on Griffith. Griffith didn't order Guts to kill Adonis, only Julius, so it's Guts' fault for fucking up.

>And a child does not bear the sins of his father
I totally agree.

>if you think he shouldn't care then you have some serious issues.
He didn't know Adonis, and it wasn't his fault he died. Why should he care?

>Would you not feel sorry if someone did some shit to you, and their 10 year old son got the punishment instead of the perpetrator?
Depends on the context. Do I like that kid? Is the kid a good person? Did the dad also get punished? Did I directly kill the kid, or ordered for him to be killed? It all depends. If I were Griffith, I wouldn't feel any guilt, because it wouldn't even be my fault.
>>101699934
Guts was actually pretty stealthy too, and the man that Griffith trusted the most. If I remember correctly, Griffith even told Guts that he always sent him on missions because he didn't want the rest of the Band to know.
>>101699966
I use the alignment scale for everything, fiction or reality.
>>101699990
This!
>>101700044
Two assassins? Judeau, and...? Also, see above for an explanation on why.
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>>101700223
It's pretty obvious that Guts escaped since the guard didn't say anything about pursuing the assasin or him beeing captured.
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>>101700359
>I use the alignment scale for everything, fiction or reality.
Well stop it. Its meant to be a crutch for brain dead RPers who can't stay in character. It isn't meant to be applied to anything else. Nor should you try.
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>>101700359
>I use the alignment scale for everything, fiction or reality
>taking the DnD alignment scale seriously
How retarded are you?
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>>101700483
Actually it was originally just a symbol of what gods you follow that they based on Moorcock's shit, which makes using it as a serious scale of morality even more retarded.
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>>101700359
Judeau and Rickert, both marksman and the best choices for assassination

And the fact that Griffith only trusted Guts to get it done is on him, he still sent what was essentially a cavalry leader on an assassination mission. Griffith knew things would get fucked up, he's not an idiot.
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>>101700359
>Guts was actually pretty stealthy too
Bull. Fucking. Shit.
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>>101700358
>If you don't do what I say I will kill you. I don't see how you could think of someone as a friend and still say that. He was his best tool. And no one other than Guts wanted to leave. Who says that Griffith wouldn't do the same with them (try to keep them by force)?
I don't know about you, but I'd feel really appreciated and honored if he did that to me. It would mean he actually cares about me, and that I'm not just another random pawn.

>How is it obvious? Why did the Beherit trigger when Guts touched him? Why at that exact moment? Because Guts would have taken him back to his friends.
I don't think that there's any official explanation, but I think that it's because Guts was the main sacrifice. Or maybe it's just a coincidence.

>He is crippled in the vision. Casca is feeding him and he cannot talk or stand up.
He's not. He has no visible scars anywhere, and he has all his muscles, which had been removed by the torturer. Muscles that have been entirely removed don't just grow back. And profound scars don't heal perfectly.
>>101700483
>>101700500
>>101700589
I don't see the problem. I found that it's pretty accurate in general when you actually understand the system and people.
>>101700767
Do you have any evidence that Rickert is an assassin too? As far as we know, he's just a mounted crossbowman.

>Griffith knew things would get fucked up, he's not an idiot.
He's not a medium either. He couldn't have predicted that Adonis would happen to be there AND die.
>>101700886
He was stealthy until Adonis died. Then he went full berserk.
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>>101700886
This.
Stealth is not how good you are at sneaking into a place, anyone can do that shit.
Stealth is about killing your target without it knowing what hit it, then getting out unseen, if you are comprimised.
He just hack and slashed his way through..
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>>101700914
>I don't see the problem. I found that it's pretty accurate in general when you actually understand the system and people.

People don't fit into categories. Neither do well written characters. Thinking otherwise is immature and naive.
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>>101700914
>>If you don't do what I say I will kill you. I don't see how you could think of someone as a friend and still say that. He was his best tool. And no one other than Guts wanted to leave. Who says that Griffith wouldn't do the same with them (try to keep them by force)?
>I don't know about you, but I'd feel really appreciated and honored if he did that to me. It would mean he actually cares about me, and that I'm not just another random pawn.
Okay I'm done.
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>>101700767

Adonis was the most probable candidate to marry Charlotte. Griffith couldn't have planed for Guts to eliminate him but doing that worked in his favor.
I don't think Griffith was pure evil, but no way can you cal him "good' either. He was extremely ambitious and selfish, everything he did was for HIS dream not for the good of the people and ultimately DECIDED to sacrifice his friends for to obtain it.
>>
>>101700914
>he was stealthy until Adonis died
Except he wasn't, that's how Adonis found him. He stayed there longer than he had to after killing Julius. Sneaking into a place doesn't make you stealthy, let alone assassin level stealthy.
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>>101700914
He was pretty obviously crippled. He never moved or spoke even once, and Casca had to spoonfeed him. You don't do that to a sound and fit man.
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>>101700914
Do I have any evidence that Rickert is an assassin? No, I don't.

Do you you have any evidence that Guts is an assassin? The man cleaves people in half by the dozen, while Rickert and Judeau specialize in ranged combat which is an infinitely better option for killing a single target.

And if a ranged kill isn't good enough, I can bet you that Judeau knows a hell of a lot more about poisons and foul play than Guts.
>>
>>101701038
It isn't even just that, even most poorly written characters are more complex than a system that would something as complex as morality in two words.
>>
So what are the chances that when the reach Elfhelm, it'll be in chaos?
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>>101700359
>I use the alignment scale for everything, fiction or reality.

Woah, what? Seriously?
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>>101701038
They don't fit perfectly into them, but it's still a good categorization overall. It's pretty obvious that someone classified at Lawful Good wouldn't usually act the same as someone classified as Chaotic Evil.
>>101701064
Fine.
>>101701136
>Adonis was the most probable candidate to marry Charlotte. Griffith couldn't have planed for Guts to eliminate him but doing that worked in his favor.
I agree.
>>101701259
>You don't do that to a sound and fit man.
It's a romantic thing they do. They were married. Griffith had no scars in the vision, yet he did in real life. Pic related.
>>101701306
I never claimed Guts was an assassin. I agree that, on a purely technical level, Judeau would have been the man for the job, but Griffith didn't want to imply anyone but Guts in his scheming.
>>101701488
Yes. I classified my friends by them, and they liked it.
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>>101700914
Guts did feel honored. He says that he preferred it this way and that it meant that he was still worth shedding blood over. That doesn't mean that Griffith tried to denied his free will and said that he owned him. you don't OWN friends.

>I don't think that there's any official explanation, but I think that it's because Guts was the main sacrifice. Or maybe it's just a coincidence.
I don't think it is a coincidence. Griffiths emotions reached their peak at that moment. He wanted to escape that pain and the Beherit triggered. It was the same for the Count and for Rosine and for the Beherit Apostle. They were all at their lowest, most desperate when it happened.

>He's not. He has no visible scars anywhere, and he has all his muscles, which had been removed by the torturer. Muscles that have been entirely removed don't just grow back. And profound scars don't heal perfectly.
Why would Casca feed him? Why is he not responding? Why is he all wrapped up like an old man? He is still crippled and his tongue is still cut off. He is also fully clothed so we don't see his muscles. And also this vision is not reality. It is the best he could hope for - living a quiet life with Casca taking care of him.
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>>101701609
It's a vision. A dream. Scars in dreams don't behave the way they do in real life. His legs were even covered, like a cripple.
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>>101701609
>it's still a good categorization overall
It really isn't. Good-Evil is so subjective and Chaos-Law is so ambiguous that their more like political parties than actual ideologies. It's not even just an oversimplification of morality, it flat out ignores large parts of it.
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>>101701780
*they're more like
Damn I need sleep.
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>>101701136
I think the best adjective would be "human"
yes i am cynic as hell
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>>101701931
Human would imply he's normal. He's pretty clearly abnormal in some way.
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>>101701780
it works slightly better if you use altruistic and egoistic instead of good and evíl.
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>>101701695
>That doesn't mean that Griffith tried to denied his free will and said that he owned him. you don't OWN friends.
I'm tired. What I meant was - that this does not change the fact that Griffith tried to deny his free will and that he said that he owned him. You don't OWN friends, you own tools.
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>>101701780

Only edgy people think that
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>>101702045
Even then that's ignoring large factors in morality.
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>>101701695
>Guts did feel honored. He says that he preferred it this way and that it meant that he was still worth shedding blood over.
Good point. I'm glad Guts agrees with me.

>Why would Casca feed him?
Romance.

>Why is he not responding?
Confusion and being lost in his thoughts.

>Why is he all wrapped up like an old man?
He's not. He was just asleep with a blanket on him.
>>101701780
I'm sure most here will disagree, but I think that morality can be defined objectively.
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>>101702207
better != good
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>>101702238
>I think that morality can be defined objectively
Morality being objective and good being objective are two different things. Let's say morality is objective and can be measure for a person as an absolute. That doesn't change the fact that the alignment system is an extremely inaccurate, incomplete and oversimplified measure of it.
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>>101702382
True.
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>>101696127
I thought he was Skull Knight?
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>>101702114
Only an edgy teenager would say that.
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Never read Berserk but always wondered:

What exactly was Griffith's ( That his name? ) motivation, or rather "dream" ?

And how does the whole sacrifice thing work?
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>>101702586
No, that's Rakshas. See >>101699147
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>>101702727
Dream is the meaning of life for that person.
Griffith's dream was to become the king of Midland. But unfortunately,destiny had different plans with him.
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>>101702238
>Good point. I'm glad Guts agrees with me.
That still doesn't make Griffith any less selfish, tho!

>Romance.
They are not nobles at court playing with their food. He cannot eat by himself. He never moves or talks... it is very obvious what is the reason for this. You are not making much sense here.
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I just realized how similar Griffith is to Arioch.
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>>101702727
He wanted to be a king even though he was born a commoner - that was his dream.

Beherit stones are keys to summoning God Hand, powerful entities that can grant wishes. The price for getting your wish come true is sacrificing that which is dearest to your hart (family, comrades) and loosing your humanity (you become an apostle of the God Hand - basically a monster in human shape).
The beherit can only be activated by a specific person at a specific time when their despair reaches its peak.
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>>101703306
And what about those 5 or 6 Hellraiser-esque figures that Guts met in that , again, Hellraiser-esque Labyrinth?
What exactly are those?
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>>101703306
Those are the God Hands. Griffith is one of them, now named Femto.
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>>101703516
They're the god hand.
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>>101675751
the last ep
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>>101706397
>not reading Berserk
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Don't have a page on me since I need to redownload Berserk, but when the king breaks into room and sees Charlotte deflowered. His face was just the best.
What's the best group for Berserk
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>>101707036
This?
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>>101707176
Yes. When characters build up something for a long time then it crumbles in an instant are my favorite. Next scenes with him going mad were also good
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can anyone post up the pics that are the most fucked up in berserk please?
like say for example Mozgus torture chamber or the orgy seen with the devil in the mountains
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The part when he first gets his signature sword and uses it was pretty great. What was it called? Dragon Killer?
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>>101708158
Dragon slayer
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>>101708342
Ah, thanks.
What volume did that happen in again?
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>>101708383
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>>101709450
We don't all have access to your fancy Indonesian technology faggot.
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>>101707036
dark horse is the only way to go http://www.mediafire.com/-berserk-
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This part



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