>It reached escape velocity, it's now moving into a lunar orbit
>So it's almost impossible to recover now?
A few days ago, I sought help from you guys on simulating the mass and size of the Lance of Longinus, to demonstrate that Fuyutsuki is no Werner von Braun. After a few aborted attempts, I have put a boilerplate Lance into a lunar orbit and recovered it, suck it NERV.
Unfortunately, actually launching that much mass into a lunar orbit proved damn near impossible but NERV did have an Eva. However, Rei was busy being injured and servile so I had some help from the British...
...who kindly agreed to lend me a police box to get the bastard up there.
[Please tell me to stop if I'm treating /a/ like a personal blog]
With the 'Lance' now in orbit, the police box could return to Kerbin, where it mysteriously vanished. Now the real work begins.
It wasn't that it was impossible to recover theoretically, they just didn't have the means to launch a recovery mission for a multi-ton object orbiting the moon.
That's really interesting, keep up your work with lance of longitude.
Even Tokyo-3 costs more than a moonshot, nevermind the cost of the Evas.
This is the nuclear recovery vehicle. Because nuclear rockets have long burn times, they can't be used to get into orbit so the first two stages are liquid fuelled. However, they're exceedingly efficient. Japan Heavy Chemical Industries kindly donated the backup reactor for Jet Alone, the new operating system specifically ignores commands to make the reactor blow up.
With 20 engines burning, the first stage lofts the probe into low orbit, it's just about all the first stage can do. This mission had a huge margin of safety so low Kerbin orbit is reached with the second stage almost fully fuelled.
Fun fact: If you could put a fully fuelled Saturn V with all its stages in tact and ready to fire into a geostationary orbit, you could visit Jupiter and get home safely.
I wonder how it feels being tanged.
monitoring this thread
The second stage now fires, driving our intrepid probe towards the Moon/Mun for its date with destiny. SEELE sends mission control a gift basket.
Gravity takes over, drawing the probe towards the Moon. Because the 'Lance' has to be captured, the orbit is now circularised at a higher altitude so as to conserve fuel when catching up with it.
Tokyo 3 is also something they planned on costing money. Having a multi-billion dollar expense come out of the blue might present some problems.
Monitoring this thread with keen interest.
The second stage now expended, the nuclear engine comes into play. A retrograde burn (in the opposite direction to the trajectory) drops the orbital altitude and a smaller prograde burn then matches velocity with the target at the closest approach.
These are very heavy rockets and reaction wheels alone aren't enough to turn them quickly. Reaction control systems (small gas jets) is used but the propellant must be conserved for docking.
I will rape your ass if you fail OP. Get that spear.
Did they add new rockets or is that a mod rocket?
The 'Lance' is now in sight. Very small burns are required to close the distance and avoid hitting the target (apart from damaging it, the impact would send it into an uncontrollable spin, making docking impossible), otherwise billions of dollars and man hours will be wasted. Keel calls mission control and warns them not to fuck up.
It's a mod rocket but a realistic one.
We are now parallel with the 'Lance'. The automatic docking system takes over for a soft contact. The target lacks any manoeuvring systems so it's all down to our brave robotic pilots (the Japanese technicians kept insisting that we had to stick a 13 year old in there).
With odds slightly better than the average NERV mission, the 'Lance' has been captured and it's time to give the lunar gravity well a boot up the ass. Since the package is damn near indestructible, we just need to swing into an orbit that brings us inside the atmosphere, once that's done no further burns are required.
Eva units are (very roughly, around +/-50) 100m tall, the lance is spear sized in relation to them, that container looks to be around 10m tall.
Suck it, Moon, you mostly barren bastard.
One colossal burn from the nuclear rocket speeds the probe and the package up to Lunar escape velocity.
Evas are however fucking tall the animators feel like at any particular moment.
It's the size of a Space Shuttle external tank and fully fuelled. The first stage was effectively 5 Saturn Vs strapped together.
One final burn was required in the end to give the best atmospheric braking.
They're standardized to 80 meters in Rebuild if we want to get really anal about it.
How would you dock with the lance in real life though? It's not like it has a docking port.
Also it doesn't make sense that the lance could go into a lunar orbit straight from an Earth launch, without burning retrograde behind the moon to brake into lunar orbit.
I can understand the lance landing on the lunar surface in EoE without using delta-V though, since the moon's surface has MASCON which causes gravity to be lumpy and distorts orbits.
TLDR: Anno doesn't know shit about orbital mechanics
As we enter the upper atmosphere, the air resistance bleeds off the momentum. A final firing of the rocket ensures that fission fragments are scattered into the atmosphere.
This is where things get a little inaccurate. A rocket nozzle would be torn to shreds by the force but putting a heat shield between the rocket and the docking section proved impossible within the mechanics of the game.
How exactly are you going to find a relatively tiny object like the lance, in space? You'd need extremely precise measurements.
Maybe there was a passing meteor that helped it out.
I have seen one other proposal for retrieving the lance giving the difficulties of docking with it:
Project Orion style nuclear pulse propulsion. Launch a whole fleet of nukes towards the lance in orbit, detonate them one after another behind the lance to give it a push to escape the lunar gravity.
I imagine you'd just grapple the bastard and reel it in, which would be easier than docking with it, since aerodynamics doesn't matter, then you could fire off a couple of RCS bursts and let the computer figure out where the new CoG is.
Since we don't want to turn the landing site of the Lance into a radioactive wasteland, the recovery probe now separates and safely lands in central Africa, far beyond anyone with the resources to complain about the post critical nuclear fuel embedded in their hut before they succumb to I131 poisoning.
Champagne all round, the Lance has been returned to Earth to be used for more machinations.
>How exactly are you going to find a relatively tiny object like the lance, in space? You'd need extremely precise measurements.
The same way New Horizons will pass close to Pluto. Clearly, they have the ability to track it so they can work out its orbit and what burns are required to produce an intersecting trajectory.
>I imagine you'd just grapple the bastard and reel it in, which would be easier than docking with it, since aerodynamics doesn't matter, then you could fire off a couple of RCS bursts and let the computer figure out where the new CoG is.
Oh it will probably work, using the same sort of system as they used at the start of 3.33. But the problem is you then need a main engine with a very large vectored thrust angle to compensate for centre of thrust not aligned with centre of gravity.
And I think generally NTR engines have pretty poor vectored thrust angles.
Are you comparing a spacecraft obviously built with tracking devices in mind to a tiny lance made out of magic? Even if there's some detectable AT field bullshit they can pull, there's no way it'd be sensitive enough to pick up a signal through the vacuum of space.
Did you have to spend 50 billion dollars to recover the boilerplate OP?
That is not an ethical power source.
Those poor astronauts.
There's no issue tracking the lance, Nerv could detect the lance in lunar orbit all the way from Earth.
The lance probably shows up just fine on radar like a large metallic object.
Why didn't they just tie a rope around the lance before they threw it so they could pull it back?
I'd put something like this on the end of it so the Lance can be shuttled back and forwards until the centre of gravity and thrust are on the same axis in sort of a giant flying T. You could also put a nice long antenna on the end, to give it a crucifix shape, because that's something you rarely see in Eva.
Doesn't seem very structurally sound. Why not just have a "lance catcher" at the front of your recovery vehicle which is just a long tube with a deep hole in the centre. Get close to the lance, grab it with CANADARM and stick it into the hole, then have some mechanism inside your catcher to tightly grip the lance from the inside so it doesn't slide out?
Yes, I'm sure a rope would be able to hold an object flying at escape velocity Frodo.
What if it's a rope we got Jesus to touch?
It's a probe and we're fighting angels, I'm sure angel blood doesn't do anyone any good either.
The spacecraft has tracking apparatus, Pluto sure as hell doesn't.
What if you attached the rope to an anchor point on the other side of the earth? Then the lance would fly out, put a fairly light force on the rope as its trajectory changed into an orbit around earth, and then spin quickly around the earth like a yo-yo.
What if its a rope made out of EVAs?
Pluto is massive.
What if we sent an EVA made of rope?
It doesn't need to be. You're in space and you'd be matching its velocity. You could also have additional locking clamps once it's in the right position but, if everything's lined up, it will exert the same force on the rocket, whether it's across it's longitudinal axis or along it.
KSP made me rage at the Unit 01 recovery scene at the start of 3.33
HUH three stage upper stage where each stage burns out in 10 seconds? What kind of shitty specific impulse fuel are you burning?
It's also a lot further away.
What if you just throw an Eva at Arael?
I'm not so concerned about positioning but rather how you can grab it. A T formation doesn't seem very strong (as opposed to catching it like a drill bit). It will work fine when you light up your engine to come back, but if your main engine cut off is sudden that lance is going to rip its way out of whatever you're using to grabbing into it with its own momentum.
They're not what you think!
(they're exactly what you think)
I figure catching it like a drill bit has a much smaller margin for error and requires a longer vessel.
I with NTR (of the Japanese variety) could be used for thrust.
Ragefap -> cum with the power of a thousand suns -> delta-V from jizz
It's cooler than that.
>so you want to use nuclear propulsion
>fuck you, radiation happens
>no, fuck YOU
> multi-billion dollar expense come out of the blue
You mean like every time an Angel attacks and trashes an EVA and/or the city?
He didn't say they didn't have enough money, he said they didn't have the means. Space programs were probably one of many avenues of development scrapped and abandoned post- 2nd Impact.
Either way, this is a fun little thought experiment, thanks op. You gonna do something with the sequence at the start of 3.0?
Nice thread OP. Just posting best girl.
I propose that this mission could be done more efficiently with ion thrusters.
I mean if Nerv was planning this out instead of "shit guys we need to get the lance back RIGHT NOW", they could build a recovery vehicle with ion thrusters that will fire for extended period (like, weeks or month, instead of minutes) in a spiral orbit to build up the necessary delta-V to escape lunar gravity. Earth's gravity and aerobraking will take care of the rest. The recovery vehicle will be in cislunar space the whole time so it can make use of plentiful sunlight with solar panels, no need for heavy RTGs unlike outer solar system missions.
Shoot this recovery vehicle to the moon using a conventional rocket powered trans-lunar injection stage to save time, no need to fire up the ion thrusters until we catch the lance.
I discovered that getting a model into Kerbal is horrendously difficult. I'll scout around for parts that approximate the shields they used to house the Evas and report back if anything turns up. I'm pretty busy with my day job so it will be a week or so. There is a grappling hook add on so, assuming it's reasonably easy to use, it will be a comparative doddle. Making the stages fly apart like they did in 3.0 will be harder, I tend to build linear stages that decouple using the next engine but it won't be insurmountable.
If anything, the actual flight will be easy by comparison if I can nail down the timing.
Kerbal isn't ideal for this, you can't warp while your engines are running so you'd have to do a week of burns IRL-time.
With Nerv it always feels like "shit guys we need to get the lance back RIGHT NOW", though.
>Space programs were probably one of many avenues of development scrapped and abandoned post- 2nd Impact.
Nerv at least has access to observation satellites and space weapons. They use them again Sahaquiel in the TV series.
>Nerv at least has access to observation satellites and space weapons
I got the feeling those were turned over to NERV after 2nd Impact by the US and others.
What about the Lunar craft (never mind the base) in 2.0?
I like to add something about the 3.33 spacecrafts. The 10 second per rocket stage is pretty stupid, but structurally I can see why they built up the vehicle the way they did.
An EVA is already pretty fucking heavy as far as payloads go, you'll probably need a Saturn V class moonshot rocket to launch that payload. There is absolutely no way you could launch an EVA along with its giant three stage orbital manoeuvring vehicles in one shot.
Instead Nerv went for a modular design - each of those triangular sections that made up the vehicle looks to be identical. Each could then be launched separately, docked together in space with the EVA to be assembled into the complete package.
So for each EVA + spacecraft combination we have:
one launch for EVA
one or more launchers for space assembly hardware
four launches for first stage rocket modules
two launchers for second stage rocket modules
two launchers for re-entry braking stage
Times two for two EVAs
Oh I forgot about them. I guess NERV does have its own space program then.
That's just Rebuild retardation.
I think the whole 10 second stage bit is because it would get a bit boring watching multi minute burns.
Can we say it's Rebuild only? Or is there evidence of that in the TV series?
>You mean like every time an Angel attacks and trashes an EVA and/or the city?
That's expected, and Tokyo-3 is a fortress. Launching a orbital recovery mission for a large object isn't something that can be done on short notice. The Angels are coming quick. Hell, after Second Impactu who knows how many launch sites remain in the world?
No but if you were already going to build a modular vehicle why would you build it like that. Why not:
One single set of rocket engines at the end
Fuel modules above it for structure.
More modular fuel modules around the centre core.
When you fire the rocket, have pumps pump the fuel from outer fuel modules into the centre. Then once the outer modules are empty jettison those to lighten the vehicle. You can have the spacecraft like an onion with layers of spent fuel tanks shed one after another until you're left with just the narrow core.
Learn2Asparagus Staging Nerv.
Use an Eva cable. They're made of plot stuff.
There's no evidence of a lunar base in the TV series. However, while I might be wrong, I seem to remember the Jet Alone trials in the TV series taking place at a launch site/space port in Old Tokyo, which would suggest a big space industry in pre-Second Impact Japan.
Why don't they just use those reactionless AT-Field thrusters at the start of 3.33? WILLE have that technology, they use it on AAA Wunder.
That is at least 15 years in the future.
Because it's Rebuild. and that's shit.
Why don't they just use a mass production Eva to retrieve it?
>using kaworu to retrieve the lance that killed him
>15 years in the future of a different timeline
This. It always bothers me how people are often stuck in the mindset of needing to send everything all at once from Earth to destination or go bust when it comes to talking about armchair missions. The whole one-way trip to Mars thing is one of the louder things in particular. If it is technically possible to send a craft full of humans to Mars, it shouldn't be a stretch to launch a few planetary escape vehicles over as well. Fuel, vehicle parts, and vehicle assembly equipment could be launched up and assembled in orbit, shipped over, and then landed (which I'll admit is the real tricky part) on the surface to establish a cold-feet fallback.
It's because of the success of Apollo, it kind of stuck in people's mind and everyone intuitively thinks that's how you do deep space missions.
Not me though I firmly believe in modular missions.
> far beyond anyone with the resources to complain about the post critical nuclear fuel embedded in their hut before they succumb to I131 poisoning
Heh, excellent thread OP.
Given that the space shuttle's maneuvering thrusters are visible beyond the asteroid belt and track exoplanets tens of thousands of light years away by the dimming as they pass their respective stars, I think we can reasonably order an observatory or two to find the thing.
>the new operating system specifically ignores commands to make the reactor blow up.