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I love Urobuchi and SHAFT for turning the series into what is basically a big analogy for the existential conflict between Nietzsche and Kirkegaard. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why they foresaw that Rebellion would split the fanbase.

Has the series influenced you at all, /a/?
>>
Yeah it taught me to always go to the earliest showing if you want the god damn signboards.
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>>101614625
>turning the series into what is basically a big analogy for the existential conflict between Nietzsche and Kirkegaard.
What
>>
>>101614625

God you're a faggot
>>
That last thread was some serious meaty discussion about Rebellion. We need more of those and less colour wars.
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>>101614625
Yes, when I have the free time I'm going to read up on Nietzsche's philosophy followed by Kirkegaard.

Emotionally it rattled me because I attached a lot to the tv series ending and though Homura would accept Madoka's will until they could meet again.

It's also taken over my late night activities, I here pretty much every thread discussing it with you guys.
>>
Yes, but I can't really describe how. I don't know.

I see a lot of Homura in myself, and I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
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>>101614724
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>>101614842
I'm pretty sure I'd qualify that as bad. After all, she's prideful, pessimistic, a liar, cold-hearted, selfish, slandering, blockheaded, jealous, neglectful, vain, cowardly, stupid-looking, has an inferiority complex, and stubborn.
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>>101614790
>>101614814
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>>101614625

>my profound pseudo-intellectual interpretation is obviously the reason that SHAFT and Urobutcher foresaw the fanbase getting cranky
>obviously it had nothing to do with the film completely dismantling the events of the previous 12-episode tv series that was met with critical acclaim

You are a special kind of faggot
>>
>>101615022
I'm pretty sure the "divide the fanbase" comment was due to conflicting opinions over Homura's actions, not any "dismantling". Gen said that he knows that a lot of people don't like it when characters change.
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>>101614625
>I love Urobuchi and SHAFT for turning the series into what is basically a big analogy for the existential conflict between Nietzsche and Kirkegaard
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>>101615007
Surprisingly, discussing Rebellion (as a Sayakafag) with /a/ has actually made me less negative of what Homura did than compared to how I felt about it setting out of the theatre.

I can see things from Homura's side of things and from Sayaka's side of things and they're all pretty valid.

I think Homura's new universe is a step for the worse, not so much because it makes everyone "puppets" or because it screws over LoC, but rather because Homura fashioned a personal hell for herself where she can no longer meaningfully interact with Madoka any more, despite Madoka standing right next to her.
>>
>>101615022
>>obviously it had nothing to do with the film completely dismantling the events of the previous 12-episode tv series
At least it made a lot of sense for Homura to do what she did. I was originally fearful that it'd just be some stupid nonsensical plot twist from out of left field.
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>>101615007
Those seem like pretty common character traits to me. Maybe I'm just biased.
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>Has the series influenced you at all, /a/?
I can't stop masturbating.
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>>101615022
Nietzsche quotes are all over the runes in the movie though. The Nietzsche element is basically confirmed, and when the opposing view is naturally Kirkegaard and the shoe fits anti-Homura ethics. Well, you know, you'd have to be a retard to realize it isn't relevant.
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>>101615022
>I haven't the slightest clue who Nietzsche and Kirkegaard are or what they stand for, but I'll talk about them like I know everything anyway!
What's next anon, a fedora joke? Get over yourself.
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>>101615091
Homu dismantled Madoka's message of hope. I wasn't talking about the fanbase being dismantled.
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>>101615146
Or someone who doesn't waste time studying philosophy.
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>>101614903
>not having signboards at every showing
>nine showings

I pity you, anon.
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>>101615167
Well that's not when Gen was talking about.
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>>101615160
Not him, but I never really found Nietzche or Kirke impressive. Outdated philosophies pertaining to moral extremes, or lack thereof, and all.
>>
>got 2 signboards from viewing the movie
>paid about 130 for the rest

Still don't regret it! Also I have a job now so I finally can buy more Madoka related stuff.
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>>101615173
> Philosophy
> The only rational way to explore how to make the correct decisions to enjoy life
> A waste

I mean, this isn't /lit/, so you don't have to be an expert, but don't try and imply knowing what you're talking about is a waste. It is also pretty annoying when you make a post that implies you know what you're talking about and then later openly admit you don't.
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>>101615143
Yeah, I've been a casual browser of /a/ for years and years, but since Rebellion's premier I've become ridiculously NEETlike. I spend all of my free time watching anime or talking about it now.
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>>101615177
>tfw no showings within 200 miles
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>>101615146
>>101615160

...And the philosophy majors jump out of the woodwork!
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>>101615263
I'm an economics major, I'm just not a retard.
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>>101615120
>personal hell for herself where she can no longer meaningfully interact with Madoka any more, despite Madoka standing right next to her.
Urobuchi seems to negate this in his interview. He understands continuations to be Homura and Madoka in the same class, somehow.

So while it might be some kind of personal hell, it's not something she doesn't want, and it's not totally cut off from Madoka.

Although it probably takes Madoka herself to escalate to get more meaningful interactions, but it's not clear.
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>>101615263
Do you have something to add to this conversation or are you just trying to stir shit up?
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>>101615241
> The only rational way to explore how to make the correct decisions to enjoy life

And as many conflicting schools of thought will tell you, there is no agreed way to enjoy life, 'rational' or not.

Not him, but attacking someone for not studying philosophy is silly and pretentious.
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>>101615255
>not driving out 200 miles to see the girls on the big screen

wow
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>>101615241
I'm not >>101615022. My decision making skills have served me well without every opened a book on the antiquated art that is philosophy. Why should I read Nietzsche over Wolfram? Philosophy doesn't expand my mind.
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>>101615287
>He understands continuations to be Homura and Madoka in the same class, somehow.
That's not a statement on Homura's state of mind, he's just commenting on the fact that they are literally in the same class and that he finds the concept amusing.
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>>101615263
Network administration major here. I have no idea what's going on.
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>>101615290
Sorry I can't find my notes on Neitze, so no.
>>101615276
Ironic because you act like one.
A philosphy major
and
A retard
>>
>>101615353
I can already see how this thread's gonna go, mapped out in front of me. Do we really need to have the "philosophy, what is it good for?" argument? Can't we confine it to the aspects that relate to Madoka?
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This is all I wanted from Rebellion I knew it could never happen but I still have a sliver of hope.
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>>101615397
We could instead speculate on how S2 would go down.

That's always fun
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>>101615397
Well when Op and his fellow philosophy majors attack other posters for not being versed in philosophy, this is to be expected. But if you just want to talk about Madoka though, that's preferable.
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>>101615167
I don't remember shitposters bitching and whining for months when the series ending dismantled Homura's values and reduced her to a robotic life, one where she is simply going through the motions of living because she's been placed in an ultimatum between fighting as Madoka's proxy and giving up entirely.
The series isn't fucking over. This isn't an end to anything. Also, if the beliefs you hold are so fragile that Rebellion offends you, maybe the problem lies within you, not with the movie?
>>101615221
Agreed, but they're not meant to be followed as prophets of absolute truths of the world. As moral extremists they provide cognitive dissonance that forces our minds to see things in a different perspective.

Which is why I'm so jacked for dualism.
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>>101615397
>Say you don't see a need to study philosophy
>Fedoras start attacking you for it

Not him, but to be fair he didn't start it. I don't know why philosophy and arts majors always have to get so defensive.
>>
ITT: why you filter trips
>>
>Has the series influenced you at all, /a/?

I can no longer masturbate to anything that isn't Madoka and Homura consensually scissoring.
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>>101614625
Madoka plays quite well with human emotions, it was interesting, but I can't figure out what the message is. There may be something about never giving up hope and valuing your own life before others (that thing with the wishes) but I'm not sure.

They could have developped Sayaka in a Shinji way (not the asocial stuff, but the "change your position and you'll see a new truth"). I'd have loved it.
Overall, I think it was great, but I want a real ending where no 15 years olf girl will have to become God. Anyway, can someone explain the final message, if there's one ?
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>>101615431
The sequel might have scenes like this; only Homura will be faking her happiness and when she leaves Madoka's side she lashes out in anger at herself possibly abusing QB in the process.
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>>101615446
No one in this thread is a philosophy major, it is just good to realize most writers are familiar with philosophy to understanding literature and art in general requires an understanding in it. Nietzsche is pretty much a household name in the middle-upper classes.
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>>101615466
Because after about two years, they realized they screwed themselves and could have just went to the library instead of filling their professors pockets for no reason.
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>>101615466
It's all they have
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>>101615466
I'm talking to both sides. The escalation of this thread into a pointless discussion of the applications of philosophy in real life is what I am trying to avoid, that is all.
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>>101615431
Don't worry, they'll get around to crushing that hope soon enough. Soon you'll be like Homura and the rest of us and have a soul free of hope.
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>>101615465
Wow, contain your autism. I never condemmed Homura's actions. I just pointed out that some people didn't like what she did.
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>>101615510
Oh, so now you're going to claim that I'm of a lower social class because I don't waste my time studying a worthless art? You see, this is why I'm an asshole to you fucking libarts faggots.
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>>101615355
Oh, so he's not alluding to them potentially actually being in class? So Homura is not going to watch over Madoka at all?

That's no good. What do we do?
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>>101615465
>if you had a problem with Rebellion destroying Madoka's message of Hope you're a shitposter

Nice, if you don't recall Homura would have had the ending she desired once the fighting was over. The tv series made it seem like she honestly accepted being Madoka's proxy in the world, Rebellion made it clear that she gave up early on.
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>>101615306
>Not him, but attacking someone for not studying philosophy is silly and pretentious.
It would be, which is why no one has done so and it would be a straw man to imply that anyone did so.

The point being made is that Rebellion is clearly influenced by Nietzsche and makes references to him multiple times, and it's quite bigoted of people to argue that this has no literary merit just because they aren't interested in the themes.

They're acting like the 'cool kids' who were supposed to read Animal Farm for required reading but they sparknote it instead and barely pass all of the tests because "Who cares about Communism?"
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>not the asocial stuff, but the "change your position and you'll see a new truth

What, isn't that what they did? Starting with Kyouko's talk with her in the Sakura Church (where Sayaka's tone changed from 'You're an enemy of justice, you must be defeated' to 'I understand why you choose to live the life that you do, but it's not something I can condone.') to her heaving a heart to heart with Kyouko the moment before witching to Rebellion, where she's matured enough that she tells Homura she understands why someone would make a perfect dream world to hide away from all the suffering outside, even if it's not something she agree with.
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>>101615510
>it is just good to realize most writers are familiar with philosophy to understanding literature and art in general requires an understanding in it.
This is not true, at all. If you're going to make such a broad strokes claim, you better be able to back it up.
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>>101615255
>tfw no english subs showings within 6612 kilometers
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>>101615397
It's funny because talking about philosophy in Madoka itself isn't even philosophy - it's literary criticism which is a completely different field.

>>101615241
Not necessarily. One could study philosophy and still be a miserable piece of shit and a horrible person for some reason (although some empiricism on that might yield other correlatives). One could have an incredibly fulfilling life without doing any philosophy. Philosophy is just the activity that explores 'the purpose of existence' as part of ethics among other topics such as epistemology, aesthetics and metaphysics, as well as philosophy of fields such as science or maths. Just like doing philosophy of maths doesn't necessarily make you better at maths, doing ethics or existentialism doesn't make you necessarily more ethical or happy. Although, perhaps studying philosophy of maths might lead you to doing some maths to understand some of the deeper issues.
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>>101615626
For future reference, don't start a thread with reference to philosophy. It angers Stem majors and you get this thread.
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>>101615616
You're entitled to your interpretation.
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>>101615578
I wasn't implying that, I was implying that he isn't a household name in lower classes because of sociological reasons, and that wasn't even the focus of my point, it just would have been incorrect to say he's a household name when anyone art related isn't a household name in lower socioeconomic groups. Are you trying to play the victim to start an argument here? This could have been resolved with you simply acknowledging that the films have a philosophical element and not trying to attack people for enjoying that element.
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>>101615626
>It would be, which is why no one has done so
See:
>What's next anon, a fedora joke? Get over yourself.
> The only rational way to explore how to make the correct decisions to enjoy life
>I mean, this isn't /lit/, so you don't have to be an expert, but don't try and imply knowing what you're talking about is a waste.

>quite bigoted of people to argue that this has no literary merit
>no literary merit
Where? Show me where people say Madoka has no literary merit?

>They're acting like the 'cool kids' who were supposed to read Animal Farm
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>
>>101615490
There's not necessarily an intended message, it's just a truly excellent story.

If I was going to draw my own message from it I guess it would be that nothing is black and white.
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>>101615680
Is he a household name in the higher classes? I know quite a few middle-upper/upper class friends from Canada, France, Sweden, Vietnam, and China who know next to nothing about Nietzche.
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>>101614625
>I've never read any shoujo with any depth.
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>>101614625
>Has the series influenced you at all, /a/?
I learned that there is nothing that satisfies me more than seeing little girls crying out of despair.
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>>101615431
It'll happen anon, it'll happen. One day.
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>>101615680
You're entitled to enjoying and dissecting Rebellion's philosophical elements. However, don't expect everyone to share your enthusiasm or interest.
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>>101615570
>the film completely dismantling the events of the previous 12-episode tv series that was met with critical acclaim
>Homu dismantled Madoka's message of hope
>I never condemned Homura's actions
Stop backpedaling, anon. You keep saying, "Oh, wow, is that what the post I replied to meant? Ah, ha ha, I was talking about something else, so I'm not really wrong or anything..."
>>
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>>101615495
Why must it all return to nothing
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Come on guys, this is worse than color arguments.

Goofy looking bitch would not approve.
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>>101615510

>Nietzsche is pretty much a household name in the middle-upper classes

Please tell me about how Lil Wayne entertains dinner guests with his take on nietzschean perespectivism.
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>>101615731
No, the series has a clear message of hope, is the movie that hasn't a intended message.
>>
>Why must it all return to nothing
Because to create hope in the world, an equal amount of suffering must also result.

Both Madoka and Homura wanted to see a world filled with hope, and they are willing to burden all the suffering on their shoulders. They just disagree on the details of implementation.
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>>101615843
Yeah, but the hope they're talking about in this scene is referring to Madoka, who's nothing more than a 15 year old girl powered up by multiple time travels or another 15 year old girl.
That's not ... right.
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>>101615810

You're retarded.

The first reply totally misunderstood what I was saying so I corrected him. If 'Dismantling' has some kind of negative connotation in your mind then there's nothing I can do for you.
>>
>>101615695
That's not attacking people who don't see the appeal of existentialism. All of the quotes you brought up were anons calling out other anons for being condescending pricks. See:
>my profound pseudo-intellectual interpretation
>And the philosophy majors jump out of the woodwork!
>>
>>101615895
The hope of Madoka changed the world. Don't minimize her wish.
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>>101615810
>Homu dismantled Madoka's message of hope
>I never condemned Homura's actions
Those aren't claims that contradict each other, anon.
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>>101615866
Obviously they need to share half of the suffering each. I'm not quite sure how that would work, though.
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>>101615843
I was supposed to feel hope from the series? Maybe I'm Homura, but I agree with her interpretation that what happened to Madoka was worse than death.
>>
>>101615510
>Nietzsche is pretty much a household name in the middle-upper classes.

Bullshit.
Let's get some statistics/surveys in here.

No? Then you're full of shit.
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>>101615925
It's the only way they can justify Homura's actions.
>>
I still haven't seen it no showings in cinemas near me and nowhere near pleb enough to watch some shitty cam rip.
>>
>>101615919
>being condescending pricks
>For originally saying you don't see the need to be familiar with philosophy

Please, anon. Stop being so defensive and shifting the blame.
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>>101615943
Not really. Homura's actions are justifiable because the ends and the means, anon. Despite Madoka's wish, Homura had a promise to keep.
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>>101615919
Who pulled the 'retard' card first? Because I distinctly recall it being from the pseudo-philosophers in this thread, not anyone else.
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>there will never be another madoka as anime as epic
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>>101615925
Yeah, but I'd have preferred megucas handling shit their way and fighting incubators, root of all evil, instead of relying on becoming God.
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Come on anons
This is the worst Madoka thread ever.

Please learn your lesson and never reply to a OP trip.
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>>101615914
No, anonymous. What had the negative connotation was the reaction image and the pejorative "my profound pseudo-intellectual interpretation".
You're insulting others and changing gears by pretending that your posts were complete neutral. It's really not a big deal. I can stop calling you out on this as soon as you stop calling everyone you reply to a retard or an autist.
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>>101615977
And she fulfilled that promise, Homura just didn't like the result of that promise, big difference.
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Wow who gives a flying fuck who called who what name, this is not the topic of this thread, can you babies continue your bitching match elsewhere please
>>
>Maybe I'm Homura, but I agree with her interpretation that what happened to Madoka was worse than death.

It is, you don't have to be a homufag to see that.

AI YO is very simple, Homura would also like to see a world where magical girls don't have to suffer so much. The only difference is that she also doesn't want Madoka to have to give up her existence to achieve it.

So she reversed it. Freed Madoka from her fate, made herself the barer of all the suffering. Then she made herself the bad guy so no one will feel sorry for her and try to undo what she's done.

Fuck me, I'm a Sayakafag and I end up having to defending Homu.
>>
>>101615977
Madokami recalls timeline 3 along with all the others, she still told Homura not to grieve and that she's happy to make this decision. Also if you intend to say that Madokami doesn't have a choice about being a god at that point that only further belittles her sacrifice since nothing in the space hug implied she secretly regretted her decision. Hell her lack of regret was good enough to kill her own witch.
>>
>**2位/**2位 ★ (*42,264 pt) [*,292予約] 14/04/02 劇場版 魔法少女まどか☆マギカ[新編]叛逆の物語(完全生産限定版) [Blu-ray]
How high this number can grow?
>>
>>101616037
She didn't protect Madoka. Madoka had to end up taking things into her own hands and sacrificing herself like she always did. This is the exact opposite of what Homura was fighting for. This is the opposite of that promise. In Rebellion, Homura's wish is finally granted however.
>>
Homura did some things, but not everything, wrong.
>>
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>>101616017
It would be a good thread if people actually addressed the topic instead of letting it degrade into metashit.
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>>101616074
Are they counting Aniplex USA in there? Because I preordered from them yesterday.
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>>101616077
>She didn't protect Madoka. Madoka had to end up taking things into her own hands and sacrificing herself like she always did.
That isn't her promise, that's her wish, two different things, anon.
>>
>>101616082
You can't expect a happy ending by doing what's right all the time.
>>
>>101616021

>Also, if the beliefs you hold are so fragile that Rebellion offends you, maybe the problem lies within you, not with the movie?

If you want to talk about backpedling, let's go back here. You seem to think I have a problem with the movie, not the tripfag being a gratuitous tripfag about it. It's funny how you jumped to his defence like an autist, but then you made assumptions about how I apparently didn't like the film like a true autist. It's not even cherry-picking. You've literally made up points to try and back up someone who's opinion sucked in the first place (OP). Feel free to continue though.
>>
>>101616131
No, it's japanese preorder.
>>
>>101616062
This here is really the only thing people are not comfortable wit AI YO. Homura is basically saying "Madoka, despite how you feel, you're too precious to give up your existence to make this universe better. Here, let me do it instead."

That's pretty disrespectful of her best friend / lover, if it weren't for this then no one would argue that Homura is a big damn hero.
>>
>>101616139
The promise was to stop her from being tricked, Homura failed. The wish was to protect Madoka, Homura failed. She was 0-2 but she fixed that in Rebellion.
>>
>>101616077
She did save Madoka from the incubators finding out a way to control her. I'm not saying whether Homura needed to take things into her own hands like that, or that everything she did was right, but I do want to point out that she did save Madoka while even if she was shitty about it
>>
>>101616204
But she did stop Madoka from being tricked. She prevented Madoka from making a contract every time she would have done so without knowing the full consequences. When she finally does make a wish, it's with full knowledge of what that wish entails.
>>
>>101616209
Not in her eyes. Homura doesn't count that ending as saving Madoka at all. To her, it was a fate worse than death, I believe she said.
>>
>>101616157
Actually, Homura being the God makes more sense than Madoka being the God.

It was Homura who time travelled 1000 times, giving Madoka Goddess powers.
It was Homura who had to go through all this shit just to save Madoka.

And in the end, what happens ? "sorry Hameru im the god lol i'll rewrite universe, fuck your wish of keeping me alive"
>>
>>101616204
>The promise was to stop her from being tricked, Homura failed.
But that's wrong, you fucking retard.
>>
>>101616209
But Madoka wasn't in danger of falling into Incubator control to begin with, the plan that Sayaka enacted was designed to thwart them from the beginning.
>>
>>101616157
As someone with a problem with the ending I agree. Because looking at the fact we're given nothing is worse off in Homura's new world. We're told that the LoC is functioning fine and Madoka and the girls get to live a life again. Plus the incubators are subjugated finally.

It's actually amazing that what you described took away the feeling of satisfaction that this race that used humans as cattle were finally bested.
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>>101616082
She did everything right. There's no proof that any other way would have worked out better.

It even scared Kyubey. All hail Homu.
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>>101616243
>But she did stop Madoka from being tricked.
Not really. Kyubey gets his pay off and Madoka is still screwed (in Homura's eyes). As far as Homura's concerned, she did not fulfill that promise.
>>
>>101616257
So you're saying Madoka doesn't know what's good for herself, despite having all the facts, seriously though them though and coming up with a pretty good solution save for the fact that she has to sacrifice herself?

That's disrespectful
>>
>>101616146
>assumptions
You've had multiple posts to assert your personal opinion and prove the assumptions wrong. In fact, why not start by clearing that up right now, if the accusations are so baseless?
>>
>>101616321
>Kyubey gets his pay off
No he doesn't. He wanted Gretchen's witch energy, and he didn't get it. He ended up getting way less energy in the new world from wraiths. Anyway, Madoka being "screwed" is just Homura being silly and overprotective, she's fine.
>>
>>101616321
Nah it's mostly true, Madoka fucked over Kyubey's system due to Homura's protection.

Homura doesn't hate what Madoka did, she listened to Madoka and let her make that final wish, and then fought in her place.
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>>101616336
Madoka didn't respect shit, becoming God without asking Homura for her opinion. It was Homura's choice.
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>>101616245
What the hell do you mean 'not in her eyes'? Homura DID end up saving Madoka from potentially being controlled by Incubators through what she did. That's the bare truth. That did happen.
>>
>>101616257
But what if Madoka actually wanted to free Homura from her fate? Maybe Madoka don't want Homura to suffer for her any more? Maybe Madoka didn't want her friend to turn into a witch after all she's done?

Maybe Madoka also did it because of AI YO? Are you saying she's incapable of that?
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>>101616257
>Homufags shitty in Madoka character to justify the horrible actions of Homura
Really disgusting.
>>
>>101615146
>>101615510
oh look another newfag who thinks Gen inserts DEEP literature shit when it is actually someone else.

Protip, newfag OP. All the deep literature shit and even the Faust shit in Madoka was due to Inu Curry, not Gen,

In Psycho Pass, the literature namedropping wasn't even done by Gen but by someone else.

Gen is someone who has stated that 1984 was too hard a novel for him to understand.

Gen ain't the DEEPfag you thought he was, OP.

You're giving Gen all the credit for someone else's work.
>>
>>101616387
Keyword 'potentially' with Homura once again having no faith that Madoka and her magical girls can't handle the Incubators and their isolation machine.
>>
>>101616336
>That's disrespectful
So? You have to disrespect your friends sometimes if you intend to force your goodwill upon them. That's one of the more realistic themes of Madoka.
>>101616360
>>101616387
To Homura, Madoka was not in an ideal position when she made her wish. She literally said that it's a fate worse than death that Madoka is suffering. I don't think that counts as preventing her from being tricked or protecting her. Then the first chance she gets, (in Rebellion) she makes things the way she thinks they should be: Madoka not not being god or, not suffering a fate worse than death.
>>
>>101616410
Madoka did what she thought was right, but if you think a little bit about it, Madoka's powers are what Homura built in 1000 years of suffering. Homura should be the one controlling it for the simple reason it's hers, and not Madoka's.

>>101616419
I'm a KyoukoSayakafag. Come at me.
>>
>Madoka didn't respect shit, becoming God without asking Homura for her opinion. It was Homura's choice.

I don't believe that. I believe everyone should have the right to make decision for themselves, especially major decisions like sacrificing oneself. Telling someone "No, you're incapable of making that decision. You can only sacrifice yourself for something you believe in strongly if I allow you." Is highly demeaning to that person.
>>
>>101616352
You're kidding, right?
Read the posts and point out one statement where I said Rebellion was bad.
>>
>>101616146
Hi, I'm the anon who replied to you first. I didn't make any assumptions. It's pretty clear that you're the guy who always posts "Fuck off" accompanied by an image of Madoka flipping the bird. Your posting style is clearly intelligible because you can't argue against someone without calling them a retard and an autist at least several times. Once you've done enough times to sate your ego, you fall back to reaction images.
>>
>>101616455
>I don't think that counts as preventing her from being tricked
It does. Madoka was not tricked, even Homura knows this. Madoka made her wish, for good or for ill, entirely on her own terms. The problem Homura has with the situation is that Madoka is taking too much suffering on herself, but that's still a voluntary thing. Her promise to timeline 3 Madoka was fulfilled.
>>
>>101616410
Not even her goddess powers could stop Homura from suffering for her. In fact it only made things worse. The only thing Homura ever loved and cared about was gone from the universe forever. She was left with nothing but her memories and slowly went insane.
>>
>>101616301
Not telling Kyubey about the old witch system and becoming God's wife would have made things work out better. This is 100% verified fact, so please don't dispute this.
>>
>>101616419
He's just playing the devils advocate. Homura has a role in this too, it's not just Madoka herself doing everything.
>>
>>101616300
>We're told that the LoC is functioning fine
I still don't fully believe that, though it will probably need S2 to get some tangible answers on that part.
>>
>>101616488
You're looking at it entirely the wrong way. Madoka didn't become a god because she wasn't something so petty as power. She became a god because it was her earnest desire to alleviate the suffering of magical girls. Homura didn't have that desire, so she could have never done what Madoka did. It's that simple.
>>
>>101616419
Please don't use the all-encompassing term "Homufags" to address the rogue elements within the Homu fanbase, thanks
>>
>>101616507

Please stop telling me what you think you know about me and anser me this:
Are you the anon who said

>Also, if the beliefs you hold are so fragile that Rebellion offends you, maybe the problem lies within you, not with the movie?

Beacuse that is an assumption. If not then I don't understand why you're posting.
>>
>>101616566
she *wanted something so petty as power
I don't know what the fuck I'm typing
>>
>>101616527
And just like Madoka disagreed with Homura at the end of the TV show, Homura disagrees with Madoka in the movie. They're on equal grounds, both don't like the way how their solutions turn out.
>>
>>101616382
Maybe because she didn't know shit about what Homura go through when she made her decision, she only learned about it when she became Madokami where she thanked Homura for everything she did, you faggot.
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>>101616550
So how exactly was Homura supposed to get her Madoka back without going AI YO?
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>>101616566
Doesn't change anything, Madoka used the powers Homura built through decades of suffering, without asking Homura what she wanted to do. She stole it.

>>101616611
Yes, and then she could've had a talk with Homura and accepting to trade places instead of "fuck you I'm going to Yuri Valhalla, don't forget me k ? bye"
>>
Homura did nothing wrong.
>>
>>101616527
You're taking it way too literally. The promise wasn't just to stop her from being tricked, it was to stop her from being a magical girl at all, which is what Homura was trying to do for the entire show.
>he problem Homura has with the situation is that Madoka is taking too much suffering on herself,
Not only that, but she sees herself as a failure for never protecting Madoka the way she wished to do so.
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>>101616631
Go to yuri valhalla, and be together with Madoka forever?
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>>101616588
No, I've just been in the threads enough to recognize you since you've been called out before. I won't be responding again by the way, because metashit.
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>>101616550
Sooner or later Kyubey would try to figure out why megucas just disapppear when they lose their magic. It would take a bit longer, but lead to similar experiment, only with different outcome (no Homura to recreate reality if they picked another meguca to experiment on).
>>
>>101616631
She should have dealt with it like a real man
>>
>>101616560
Same anon, neither do I but there is no evidence to prove either case. Like you said we'll have to wait.
>>
>>101616566
>I want to destroy witches with my own hands
She wished for power, damn crazy dictating power hungry pink
>>
Can you spergs shut up already

>muh philosophy
>muh deep animo

fuck off
>>
>>101616645
>and accepting to trade places
No she couldn't, she isn't omnipotent, what the fuck are you talking about, nigga.
>>
>Not even her goddess powers could stop Homura from suffering for her. In fact it only made things worse. The only thing Homura ever loved and cared about was gone from the universe forever. She was left with nothing but her memories and slowly went insane.

That's true but that's just how the world works. Homura doesn't make it because Madoka choose a fate worse than death. But did it occur to her that by reversing that choice and doing the same thing herself might not actually make Madoka happy?

Oh sure with her new god like powers she could just get around that by wiping Madoka's memories so she doesn't understand the situation. But that's just lying to the both of them. Madoka doesn't want to see her best friend take a few worse than death any more than Homura would.
>>
>somewhat interesting series gets a maximum yuri pandering drivel movie
>/a/ hails it as a masterpiece
>>
>>101616662

>I know this guy, seen his type before it's totally him

Ok, have fun clinging to your paper-thin sense of smug accomplishment then.
>>
>>101616645
Madoka's powers come from her hopes and desires, not just Homura's time-looping. She has every right to use her wish as she sees fit. You're saying just because Homura inadvertently caused Madoka to be stronger, Madoka should get her permission before accomplishing the thing she wants enough to give up her existence? Every girl is entitled to wish for what they want.
>>
>>101616702
Homura fucking pulled her out of the Madokami, do you really think Madoka couldn't have trade places ?
>>
>>101616442
Yeah, I implied that in the post that the person I was replying to was replying to. I get that the whole thing could have been solved in other ways but my original and only point does remain true. Homura did save Madoka from something when she did what she did and I shouldn't have to wrap this up in paragraphs of clarification.
>>
>>101616701
who is ur meguca waifu? lol

Better? That's what you want?
>>
>>101616744
No she didn't. Madoka became a magical girl. That's wasn't part of the promise.
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>>101616733
Yeah, she has a debt toward Homura (without her, she would be the weakest of the cast and couldn't wish anything relevant). She can't just go and say "fuck you I'll do what I want with the wish".
>>
>>101616723
So what are you trying to say?
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>>101616729
Rebellion was genuinely interesting and thought-provoking. I'm sorry you're unwilling to spend any time thinking about it because of reasons.
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>>101616596
Well, Madoka isn't entirely selfless--and that's not a bad thing either. She's like Yuno in that she's humble, but she also really likes praise. She doesn't want a corrupting, petty power like you speak of. She just wants to be useful to others, which is empowering in a much more beautiful way.
Not anyone you replied to by the way, I'm just going off on a tangent.
>>
>>101616729
>somewhat interesting
All that passive aggressive. At least have balls to call it shit.
>>
>>101616783
the only thoughts it provokes concern how retarded it is
>>
>>101616631
See
>>101616658
I literally said the exact same thing in my original post.
>>
>>101616819
I liked the original series, why would I call it shit?
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>>101616773
>She can't just go and say "fuck you I'll do what I want with the wish".

But why not anon? It's not like Homura asked Madoka in timeline 1 "Oh by the way, I can't live without you any more. Should anything happen to you I'm going to become a magical girl, travel back in time and save you. Are you okay with that?"

No she just did it, because that's what a wish is. There is something you sincerely believe in and willing to trade your soul for it, no one should be able to deny or question you on that choice.
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>>101616773
Madoka didn't know she has this "debt toward Homura" and when she learn about it she can't do anything about it, you stupid crazy bitch.
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>>101616729
>>
>>101616773
I'm sorry, that's simply not how it works. No one has any obligation to use their wish for anything, they all pay a high enough price as it is.

And if Homura wanted to call in this "debt" of Madoka's, she should have done so! She had plenty of opportunities to discuss the matter with Madoka, but she decided to just tell her to sit down and shut up instead.
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>>101616859
Because whenever she tells someone what's going on, they fuck shit up. See Mami.
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>>101616881
By episode 11, Madoka already knows all the secrets. Homura comes clean with her and tells her that she's from another timeline. No excuses.
>>
>>101616852
Yeah but you're missing my point.
Madoka couldn't have done this wish if it wasn't for Homura. Homura unwillingly gave her the powers to do this and would have prefered to do it herself, but she never got the occasion.

>>101616854
Homura pulled Madoka out of Madokami.
>>
>>101616729
Christ the pandering was not even that long and that's what you notice?
>>
>>101616658
She didn't know how that worked, and we don't either. The last thing she saw was the naked space hug and then Madoka was gone forever. Other than what she said while she was a witch, she couldn't accept dying while having completely failed at everything she lived for.

>>101616723
That's why the pair of them is so tragic. They're stuck sacrificing themselves for the other, upping the stakes every time. Homura gives up her soul to go back and save Madoka. Madoka gives up her last grief seed and accepts death (in that timeline) to save Homura. Homura kills her to spare her from becoming a witch, then goes back again and again, giving up her ability to ever stop fighting. Madoka gives up her existence in the universe to save Homura and all the other megucas from becoming witches. Homura gives up her final chance at salvation and happiness to save Madoka from a fate worse than death.

Now it's Madoka's turn again, and whatever she does is going to hurt.
>>
>>101616773
>Yeah, she has a debt toward Homura
Don't confuse gratitude with responsibility.
>>
>>101616770
Jesus Christ. Please understand this.

Homura. Saved. Madoka. From. Being. Controlled. By. The. Incubators.

Are you retarded.
>>
>>101616921
Madoka told Homura that they'd see each other again. Then she told her "we'll be together forever from now on". Homura should have just went with it, it would have made her happy.
>>
>>101616908
Actually, Madoka fucks shit up by making a wish. Homura probably regrets telling her.
>>
>>101616729
You don't like yuri?
I do, I love sakura trick this season.
>>
>>101616723
>Madoka doesn't want to see her best friend take a few worse than death any more than Homura would.
I think the difference is that it isn't a fate worse than death for Homura. She's on the same plane of existence, she can interact with Madoka, and she seems to be fine with her position.

Madoka never has to know about the details, although she may inevitably be drawn to Homura and might figure something out.
>>
>>101616921
>The last thing she saw was the naked space hug and then Madoka was gone forever.

With the promise that they'll meet again. Homura basically got Apostle level recognition from her goddess and still didn't have enough faith to just fight to protect earth until she could die a noble death.
>>
>>101616922
Aw, snap.
>>
>>101616922
But it IS responsabiliy. Homura took all the burden and it allowed her to gather enough power to make a God. Madoka becomes that God and doesn't give a shit about what Homura wants.

It's like saying I gathered weapons during years and someday, you just decide to take all of them and use it on who you want to use them without asking me.
>>
>>101616950
Yes, Homura regrets Madoka's making a wish, I'm glad you were paying attention.
>>
>>101616921
>Now it's Madoka's turn again, and whatever she does is going to hurt.
This is why it has to conclude in a dualism end or it will go on forever.
>>
>>101616909
>Madoka couldn't have done this wish if it wasn't for Homura. Homura unwillingly gave her the powers to do this and would have prefered to do it herself, but she never got the occasion.

No it doesn't matter. If Madoka (and Mami) didn't save Moemura in timeline 1 then she would have been witch food and that's that. But just because they did it doesn't mean Moemura has to ask Madoka permission to contract. You don't save someone or give benefit to someone so you could hold some kind of power over them, you do it BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Homura is trying to save Madoka because she felt it's the right thing to do. Whatever the consequences it doesn't make Madoka own Homura anything in return.

I thought the case with Sayaka and Kyousuke made this plenty clear.
>>
>>101616939
Homura didn't prevent Madoka from contracting with the Incubators. That's what she wanted to do, that was part of the promise she made. You're taking the wording too literally and disregarding the actual happenings that resulted of that promise. Homura's goal was to stop Madoka from contracting because of that promise. It was never about stoping her from specifically being tricked.
>>
>>101616993
>It's like saying I gathered weapons during years and someday, you just decide to take all of them and use it on who you want to use them without asking me.
No, it's like your friend gathering weapons unbeknown to you in your basement and you suddenly finding them and deciding to take them out and use them because a fucking zombie apocalypse is happening outside your door.
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>>101616996
>regrets Madoka making a wish
>Homura is still allowed to keep the LoC 'untampered with'

Fucking writers better show us that Homura was wrong/lying.
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>>101616921
>she couldn't accept dying while having completely failed at everything she lived for.
And this is why Homura is a stupid bitch, she doesn't fail and makes things right for Madoka but she just refuses to see it that way.
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>>101617057
I'm not seeing the connection.
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>>101616950
It's not as if Homura had the situation under control, anon. Madoka's actions truly were necessary and beneficial. Madoka being alive is icing on the cake that is the Law of Cycles.
A lot of people are mad because they're worried about the Law of Cycles, because if it's been fucked up in any way, Homura has effectively put the cart before the horse.

I say this as a Homufag, but I only believe in Homura because I think she is making a better world and wouldn't actually harm the Law of Cycles itself.
>>
>>101617079
Why should someone who never wanted Madokami to exist be allowed to keep all the benefits of Madokami with none of the sacrifice?
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>>101617108
Because she's taking the sacrifice onto herself?
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>>101617000
Madoka and Mami save Moemura because it's their job, as magical girls. Homura takes the Walpurgis problem personally and go through decades of suffering to solve it. HER fight eventually makes her gather God power in Madoka's body.
>>101617054
And not proposing or letting your friend use them
>>
>>101617118
>gets to be physically present with Madoka
>Madoka is ignorant of everything

Such a sacrifice...the only suffering Homura makes is from her own way of thinking.
>>
>>101617108
The LoC (presumably) operates independent of Madoka now. It's just a law that works, like gravity. Aad Madoka is safe. Now it seems to good to be true, and it probably is. Homura will be faced with an issue eventually, unless she really did defeat balance itself by embracing despair. That's be interesting.
>>
>>101617119
>Madoka and Mami save Moemura because it's their job, as magical girls
No. They save her because saving people is morally good. Magical girls are not obligated to save anyone at all. In fact, if they want to be compensated as part of their job, it is more in their interest not to save anyone.
>>
>>101617057
>Fucking writers better show us that Homura was wrong/lying.

I think Homura is already punished enough. She is now as different to Madoka as a human is to ants. She's stuck in her personal hell where the very thing she desires (to live together with Madoka again as Moemura) is constantly dangling in front of her yet always out of reach.
>>
>>101616949
Homura couldn't be happy. Just going with it would mean she'd failed, completely and miserably, at the only thing she cared about. She'd feel worthless and undeserving of Madoka's love.

>>101616973
Being unable to deal with the only thing you've ever cared about no longer existing in the universe, and going insane from being the only one who remembers her are what makes her realistic. She's not perfect.

>>101617062
She fails at what she promises in timeline 3. Sure she delivers on her wish for Madoka to be alive, but that's a technicality at this point.
>>
>>101617119
>Madoka and Mami save Moemura because it's their job, as magical girls.

No it's not, magical girls are free to let humans be food for familiars so that they grow into witches (Kyoko) there is no obligation to protect humanity. The two girls do it because its the right thing to do.
>>
>>101617179
I don't think she wants to be Moemura again. She'd just hate herself for being useless.

>>101617173
Her embracing despair was kinda the point. Maybe her despair balances out Madokami's infinite hope, or something to that effect.
>>
>>101617015
What the fuck are you on about? All I am saying or have ever said in this thread is that Homura saved Madoka from being controlled by incubators. I have never said anything about Homura's wish being fulfilled or whatever the hell you are going on about. You are contributing about 85 percent of this argument by not understanding the single point I am trying to make.
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>>101617288
>Homura saved Madoka from being controlled by incubators.
Well what the fuck is the point in that assertion? Homura's promise was to stop her from contracting.
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>>101617281
She's going to hate herself no matter what she does, she might as well be cute about it.
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>>101617354
but gothloli homu was the cutest

Too much moemura would just end up pissing me off like Shinji did.
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>>101617405
Moemura is the cutest Homu.
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>>101617281
>I don't think she wants to be Moemura again. She'd just hate herself for being useless.

No I think she does. The time Moemura spent with Madoka was where the two were the closest. Homura want those innocent days to come back.

Evidences:
1. In Homura's dream work she's Moemura
2. Madoka would like Homura to go back to the gentle person she is. That's why she was brading her hair in the lily field
3. Manga ending

Can someone post that "fuck your good end.jpg" with the new ending for Rebellion manga added?
>>
>>101617179
>She's stuck in her personal hell where the very thing she desires

It's also everything she ever wanted or at least nearly to that state. No the system has to be fatally flawed in some way or else why would the audience support Madoka bonding back with her goddess?
>>
>>101617179
What do you mean by "again as Moemura"? I think Homura's core psyche is somewhere in between Moe and Cold. Her scenes with Kyouko showed her in a very natural state, if you ask me.
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>>101617183
But would Homura still feel that way if it hadn't been for the conversation in the flower field? Her whole thing rests on the idea that Madoka is suffering as a goddess, but if she actually went with her to yuri valhalla I'm sure she'd see that's not true.
>>
>>101617428
She's not really moemura there though because she's not a clumsey idiot. She's all confindent and shit.
>>
>>101617502
She was actually pretty confident in timeline 2 as well, though. She boldly introduced herself to Madoka right at the start.
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>>101617427
But Homu's levels of cuteness only change from a 9.9/10 to a 10/10. Not enough difference to be significant.

>>101617428
I suppose you're right with the missing her innocence thing.

>Can someone post that "fuck your good end.jpg"
No. No. Not that ever again. I don't want to cry.
>>
>>101617502
>>101617531
Moemura can be confident. I don't mean she has to be clumsy and shy. I mean Moemura as in opposed to Hommando
>>
>>101617428
>fuck your good end.jpg

Yeah with that they can forget me ever buying the manga for the original series. The whole point of the manga was the different ending; now it's been absorbed into the blackhole that is Rebellion.
>>
>>101617531
That seemed more like an indication of a lack of social awareness than confidence. But generally, I get your point.
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>>101617580
It's Hanokage's manga, she can do whatever the hell she wants with the symbolism she came up with in the first place.
>>
>>101617580
You can still use the series as good(?) end if your want.
>>
>>101617428
To be fair, Moemura is just how she met Madoka, not how she sees herself ideally. In Rebellion manga, we see her hair unravel in the next page, before she ever gets shot.

Madoka needs to get her shit straight, haha.
>>
Isn't it fine if some people relate philosophical texts with Madoka Magica?
Considering the scope of the entire series, it's very easy for this to happen, some people may not agree with giving it a deep meaning but they can have their opinion while people who are interested in philosophy can have their own.
Let's all be friends and enjoy the cute girls messing around with universal principles and becoming godly concepts
>>
>>101617486
I think she would. She probably relives the time she had to mercy kill Madoka in her nightmares every single night. She probably sees it when she closes her eyes. The current state of things is a reminder to her that she's failed, and that she's a failure to her core.

She can never see things Madoka's way.
>>
madoka magica aka evangelion for retards
>>
>>101617547
>>101617580
No no I wanted to make a point with the "fuck your good end.jpg".

I see Homura as wanting to go back to being Moemura and have those innocent days with Madoka again. Notice what happened at the end of Rebellion manga: as Moemura is running into the light behind Madoka Akuma suddenly appears, points a gun at her head and blows her brain out.

This is a metaphor for how Homura is felling about AI YO. She knows that by doing what she did she's forever killed her chance for that future she desires. Moemura is well and truly dead because Madoka will never forgive her. But to her that's fine, as long as Madoka is saved from a fate worse than death.
>>
>>101617677
Evangelion was shit.
>>
Just got done watching the series. I don't understand what the big deal is. It's a fantastically told story but it doesn't do literally anything that hasn't been done to death before. Seriously, so many fucking tropes.

>Harvesting humanity as a resource
>Quiet distant girl is actually trying to save everyone
>Re-doing same scenario until she gets it right
>With the power of love I conquer all
>I WISH GOD MODE
>Makes it so everything in the story doesn't happen because she wills it
>Whole story ends up revolving around her

I'm just sick of this shit. NGE was great because the world and story was so much bigger than the characters. Even with Rei's sacrifice and powers and Shinji's decision to live his life the world is still ultra fucked by the end, and it didn't have that bittersweet bullshit "we can't be together" asspull that anime always uses to make you feel empty and get you to watch the next series/movie.

That ending was seriously an amalgamation of everything I don't like about anime.... The rest was pretty great, though. Even teared up a little at some points.
>>
>>101617345
What do you mean what is the point in that assertation? The post in which I made my original post, the post that I filled with what I thought was enough clarification to prevent this specific situation, was in reply to a guy saying that Homura did not save Madoka from anything at the end of rebellion. All I did was point out that she did save her from something. That's the point of saying that, you retard. Maybe it doesn't seem lile such a big thing after you made a big deal out of it, but that wasn't ever intended to happen. So don't go questioning me about why I made the single point that I did like I'm the idiot.
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>>101617580
Rebellion ending doesn't overwrite the series ending, anon. It's set up in juxtaposition to it.
Why haven't you accepted Dualism as the correct interpretation, dear anon?
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>>101617646
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>>101617702
what do you even plan to accomplish by making a statement like this? it's already influenced droves of things, including madoka. do you think saying "evangelion was shit" is suddenly going to change everyone's minds?
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>>101617428
>>
>>101617119
>And not proposing or letting your friend use them
Are you playing retarded on purpose? She doesn't even know they're from said friend till it's nearly too late and said friend also tells her to not leave the house regardless of her dying outside or not.
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>>101617736
Hey buddy, calm down. Anyway, the point is that Homura didn't really save Madoka from anything in her eyes. Maybe in reality or in Madoka's opinion, but that's not Homura's mind.
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>>101617656
Why her bad memories would be a problem when she has Madoka right next to her in Yuri Valhalla? She can touch her, hug her, kiss her, she's real and she's right there.
>>
>>101617640
I think her appearance pretty well matches how she feels about herself throughout the series.

>>101617697
That makes sense to me, anon.

>>101617787
NO DAMN IT
>>
>>101617833
It's difficult to let go of something like that and just take a reward you don't think your deserve.
>>
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>>101617640
>You should be cool to match it!
>Be my Moemura.

Uh oh, this reminds me of Griffth and Gutt's relationship in the Band of Silver Hawk.
When will Madoka stop leading Homura on? Will she stop taking her for granted before it's too late?
>>
It made me a better person. I straightened up my life thanks to this series
>>
>>101617646
Assigning each side one of your favorite philosophers and trying to pit them as two schools of choice is what is kinda retarded

Make all the philosophical comparisons you want, but don't expect everyone to agree with your brand of bullshit
>>
>>101617888
I think it's already too late. Homura is broken, yet somehow still sane enough to continue fighting.
>>
>>101617714
Does it need to do more than be told well? I don't think the series ever put forward the pretense of doing something that had never been done before, so I don't know why so many people seem to be under the impression that it did.
>>
>>101617697
Well that would be better than what the movie showed. From what I got from the movie Homura's thoughts about AI YO were.

>I win
>I regret nothing
>>
>>101617471
I would characterize her as competent Moemura version in those scenes.
>>
>>101617640
>>
>>101617787
>She takes out her braids and removes her glasses.
And all was right with the world. Well, until the next page.
>>
>>101617934
That kind of makes sense. Think about how long she's been fighting. Homura finally got what she wants. Being smug makes sense.
>>
>>101617888
It's already too late. There's no going back. Moemura is dead. That Bowmura filled with hope and willing to fight for Madokami is dead.
>>
>>101617929
You're probably right. I'm most likely just let down by the hype. I really did enjoy it; I just see quotes of people saying it surpasses NGE and it gets my panties all up in a bunch because they are not the same thing.
>>
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>>101617833
Yuri Valhalla is a lie.
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>>101617934
>Homura
>ever not regretting anything
Come on now anon.
>>
>>101617988
That only says that she's alone.
>>
>>101617787
>Is this happiness?
>No
Homura isn't happy with that ending.
>>
>>101618000
Yeah? Most people don't like being alone.
>>
>>101617934
I think the movie version where okay, it's subtle but it's there.

I mean her familiars throwing tomatoes at her, herself looking tired as shit and dancing under a half moon all by herself.

Looks pretty heartbroken to me. But she's deliberately putting on an act for something. If I where to guess, Homura is deliberately painting herself as the devil so that none of the meguca will petty her and do another AI YO on her.
>>
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>>101617874
That's why Madoka has to teach her to let go and show her that she really deserves this happiness for all her effort.
>>
>>101617947
I don't mind a competent Moemura, it's just that the series reinforces so hard the imagery of Moemura vs. Hommando that it's hard not to view the former as a bit of a moeblob.
>>
>>101618029
There's no indication that she regrets anything though.
>>
>>101618033
I think she's happy with the results and her position, but probably not how she got their or what she had to do.

I don't think it's all an act, but there is probably something to that idea.
>>
>>101618041
Homura will never accept it, she's too forgone to meddle with things of that nature. She's just so ridiculously goal-oriented.
>>
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>>101617888
Can you imagine the collective shock of the fanbase if the Berserk analogy was completed by Madoka becoming an even worse demon than Homura?
>>
>>101614625
>tripfag
Stopped reading right there.
>>
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>>101618091
You are too pessimistic, I'm sure that Madoka will find a way to reach to her.
>>
>>101617988
She got a nice night view.
>>
>>101618143
How? What words can change someone like Homura at this point?
>>
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>>101618114
>Thinking everyone should have to put up with your thread-derailing announcement on how you're too lazy to force anonymity with an add-on or simply hide/filter tripfags who rub you the wrong way
>>
>>101617814
I was calm before this became a thing. I get what you are saying but I was never talking about whether Homura sees whatever happened as saving Madoka. I am only talking about the reality, which is that Homura saved Madoka. Also, while I don't want to go into anything, I think Homura would have thought she saved Madoka from the incubators in the specific context of them controlling her, if not from the incubatorsturning her into a magical girl. I think Homura did accept Madoka's decision at the end of the series, but some things in rebellion caused her to 'break' - for lack of a better word - and act more rashly and in protection of Madoka.
>>
>>101618041
Of all the shit Madoka ever had to do, that's probably the hardest.

>>101618112
I'd love to see that, actually. Madoka being the one to decide she just wants to be with Homura and everything else can burn.
>>
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We hermeneutics now?
>>
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>>101618168
Don't know, AI YO?
>>
>>101614790
>300 posts later...

Nihilism and Existentialism.

Or,

"Nothing we do matters, and that's depressing" versus "Nothing we do matters, and that's liberating."

Not that I really agree that's what Rebellion's trying to do.
>>
>>101618242
That would only make things worse as Homura would assert that she doesn't not deserve Madoka's love.
>>
>>101618205
>I'd love to see that, actually. Madoka being the one to decide she just wants to be with Homura and everything else can burn.

I'd only allow such blasphemy if it completely killed Homura inside worse than she already is; believing its her fault and that this isn't how Madoka is suppose to be. But really, Madoka becoming like that will be intolerable for me.
>>
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>>101618168
Madoka will think of something we couldn't. After all, she's the one who came up with the most miraculous wish of all. She's innovative.
>>
>>101618192
>which is that Homura saved Madoka.
Saved her from what?
>>
>>101618168
Well, to be fair, Madoka hasn't been nearly as personal with Homura as she should be. That Berserk analogy had a great basis. Madoka needs to lay off the martyrdom and listen to Homura's thoughts and feelings.

If she keeps walking so briskly without looking back, the only way Homura can catch her attention is by running past her. That's why Gutts left the Band so many years ago.
>>
>>101618294
>After all, she's the one who came up with the most miraculous wish of all. She's innovative.

I'd argue she's the only one who would be willing to go through with it for the sake of strangers from the past, present, and future.
>>
I see what OP means and as far as philosophy in anime discussions go it's well-founded, but MadoMagi really is simpler than that. You can some it up in one line, "Girls who want to want to do the right thing, but actually don't want to."
>>
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>>101618234
spoonfeed me, what am I looking at here?
>>
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>>101615358
>>101617702

-Homura's love for Madoka became her sole reason for existing
-Madoka becomes an intangible concept
-existentialist crisis ensues
-Homura's love becomes twisted and perverted into a delicious form of obsession and manipulative ownership, hence filling her void
-dats it

So the moral of the story is very similar to Evangelion: don't fall in love with your waifu

oh Business Tech major btw
>>
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>>101618274
I don't think that's the case if Madoka is sincere about it, wouldn't solve everything, but it would be a start.
>>
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>>101618365
I thought that was fucking Unit 01 from the thumbnail for a second
>>
>>101618344
but Homura did the right thing.
>>
>>101618047
I get what you mean, though a competent and self-assured Moemura would probably lose a lot of the awkwardness that made her a moeblob to begin with.
>>
>>101618376
Anon, Homura had the chance to be with her forever and cease her perpetual battle. She disregarded it to continue on in attempt to fulfill her wish. Her mind is immutable.
>>
>>101618344
That doesn't apply to any of them though.

Madoka does the right thing and doesn't regret doing it.

Homura's 'right thing' is solely focused on Madoka, the rest of the world could burn for all she cared.
>>
>>101618281
I feel like it most certainly would kill whatever is left alive inside Homura.

But now she's got no choice but to deal with it. She can no longer die. She can't turn back time or undo things. She'll come to the realization that she ruined everything and get stuck in witch mode or something like that.
>>
>>101618344
No, that's just what Sayaka and Kyouko started out as, and they eventually grew out of that. The other megucas never fell into that in the first place.

Mami was pretty forward about not wanting to be alone, Homura always wanted to protect Madoka, and Madoka always wanted to be useful and save those in need.
>>
>>101618298
I'm going to cry. Saved her from potentially being controlled by incubators, anon.
>>
>>101618327
>the only way Homura can catch her attention is by running past her.
Or by grabbing her and forcing happiness upon her.
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>>101618428
Just as...planned?
>>
>>101618389
I didn't realize it wasn't until I read your post. That's pretty funny stuff.
>>
>>101618418
At the end of the TV version Homura is the only one who seems to sincerely place another person's autonomy over her own desires. The movie is about her changing her mind
>>
>>101618389
Homura wouldn't be a little bitch about piloting an eva.

>>101618451
No you little shit, Madoka gets all of Homura's witch energy.
>>
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>>101618451
When it's all over.

>I was just helping make Madoka more selfish like you wanted Master...
>>
>>101618294
That's the spirit. People forget, Madoka is just as courageous as Homura when she needs to be. She can be the hero Homura deserves.
>>
>>101618418
>Homura's 'right thing' is solely focused on Madoka
The world is at peace though because of Homura
>>
>>101618512
The world is missing half its fucking moon because of Homura

Won't someone think of the tides
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>>101618508
There's absolutely nothing that can change Homu's mind. Accept it, fool.
>>
>>101618512
No that was because of Madoka. Homura just took Madoka and lucked out that the wraith system under the LoC wasn't tampered with (as far as we're told; again I doubt that's true)
>>
>>101618414
Be with Madoka forever and Madoka directly telling her that she loves her are two different things, anon, and that is very important.
>>
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>>101618449
Grabbing her and forcing happiness is what happens literally, yes, but in the imagery of this analogy, it's represented as Homura walking ahead of Madoka.

The point is that they need to face each other. Dualism, dig?
>>
>>101618558
It was a joke.
>>
>>101618555
So what Madoka having the same level of love that she does for other magical girls isn't enough for Homura?

I think we might be getting into the Lucifer - Homura comparison topic.
>>
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>>101618534
I for one welcome our new undersea utopia.
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>>101618542
She has yet to taste the fruit of Paradise. She'll see. Even if Madoka has to drag her kicking and screaming into heaven, she'll be happy whether she wants it or not.
>>
>>101618494
Damn it, that's completely in character for that little shit.
>>
>>101618418
But saving Madoka is the right thing to do.
>>
>>101618512
Pretty much stated to be a temporary peace
>>
>>101618631
>she'll be happy whether she wants it or not.
That's exactly what Homura did. These two girls are going to go in circles at this rate. Besides, didn't Madoka realize that force doesn't work when she accidentally killed Sayate?
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>>101618658
This is a point of view often expressed by Homuras.
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>>101618584
Works for me. Hail Homura!
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>>101618542
If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time.
>>
>>101618657
It'd be the perfect way to get back at her too. Outside of straight up turning Homura into a living battery for the universe.
>>
>>101618709
What if instead of telling you it's wrong to hope they just knock you out when your back is turned?
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>>101618681
It's okay when Madoka does it because she's incorruptible.
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>>101618451
>WAAH HUMANS ARE CRAZY I GOTTA GET OUT OF HERE
Nah, this isn't part of the plan. He was ready to hightail his cute little ass out of her.
>>
>>101618709
Hope is dead for Homura.
>>
>>101618754
Now what kind of jerk would do something like that?
>>
>>101618691
Indeed, and it was the correct choice. It's on the same level as Madoka trying to help everyone.

They're kind of entwined, you can't really say "Madoka did everything Homura is bad".
>>
>>101618494
What, you thought a super-advanced hivemind civilization wasn't capable of predicting what would happen if a time traveler bound multiple realities to a single focal point? Keikaku doori.
>>
>>101618766
He can always say it was part of his plan later. Who's going to know?
>>
It is mindbreaking stuff when one struggle against one's destiny but it merely make one into its destiny even deeper.
>>
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>>101618709
Not the best comic for proving that point, haha.
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>>101618774
>God is dead
>God is literally Hope
>Hope is dead
fuck
>>
>>101618820
>Who's going to know?
Homu. I kind of wish Homu would poke my face like she did Qb,
>>
>>101618800
Except what Madoka offered was Homura's temporal happiness while promising happiness in the afterlife with her.

What Homura offered was a gamble that Madoka's entire wraith system would crumble to pieces, completely uncaring about the fate of other magical girls so long as Madoka gets to have temporal happiness.
>>
>>101618631
>dat gif everytime
>>
>>101618824
What, are you trying to comprehend Nietzsche's talk of destiny and 'amor fati' and all that? It's pretty much incomprehensible, lel.
>>
>>101618774
It's just her familiars shitposting, trying to act smart by quoting german philosophy
>>
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>>101618862
I just realized that. Fuck.
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>>101618824
>tfw Homura's mind is broken

>>101618899
Why are her familiars so damn cute?
>>
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>>101618866
>promising happiness in the afterlife with her.
Unproven, she was going to "be together with her forever".

>completely uncaring about the fate of other magical girls so long as Madoka gets to have temporal happiness.
Cool fanfiction bro.
>>
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>>101618935
For the preparation of Madoka Magica S2
The theme is SOL of her familiars.
>>
>>101618862
Doesn't gott ist tot refer to the death of fake reality or something like that?
>>
>>101618753
Schoolgirl Madokami is the cutest.
>>
>>101618862
No silly, that's not the point at all! Also, God isn't literally hope, she's the combined cycle of Hope and Despair.

'Gott ist tot' refers to the godly ideals presented by organized religion; the glorification of self-sacrifice is one such value that Nietzsche decries many times. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better fit for the connotation of "Gott ist tot" then that. The Clara Dolls are symbolizing how Homura is totally not cool with the sacrifice (Though she's not aware of her own feelings b/c amnesia)
>>
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>>101618355
Great development of human spiritual activity. Just like sallaka went through
>>
>>101619037
>Also, God isn't literally hope
Are you calling Mami a liar?
>>
>>101618999
She really doesn't care what happened to Sayaka while doesn't get in the way of Madoka happiness.
>>
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>>101618909
It's not about hope and despair anymore. Ai yo.
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>>101618999
>Unproven, she was going to "be together with her forever".
What the fuck else is that going to mean? What?
>>
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>>101619016
Especially when she's vulgar and rude.
>>
>>101615120
Homura would be truly in hell if she let Madoka take her away.
Homura only wish is the one who wants to protect Madoka not the one who was protected by Madoka and all the timeline Madoka have to sacrifice herself to protect Homu and at the end of 2nd movie, the result of Madoka sacrifice is not different from all the timeline Homura had been through.
If Homura just let Madoka take her away then it means that she never success her only wish for the rest of her life and will always be protected by Madoka all the time.
This time Madoka was targeted by Incubator so Homura realize that Madoka need to be protected now and she was the only one who can do it.
Homura may wish to be with Madoka but she desire to protect Madoka more than anything else.
That's why she didn't wish to revive Madoka but go back time to protect Madoka by herself instead.
For Homura, the ending of Rebellion is far better than letting Madoka take her away since its make her most desire wish comes true. She don't really care much if she can't be together with Madoka since she always alone all the time.
Homura suffering has already end since she can achieve her true wish while someone's suffering has just start and she shed her tear because she can't get the one who she loves since she never being honest to herself.
>>
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>>101618862
>>101619004

>God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. Yet his shadow still looms. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?
>>
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>>101619080
Yet she doesn't kill her, or go on some mass genocide campaign because something might vaguely threaten Madoka

>>101619103
She'll be with her as some bodiless mass collective along with everything else in the law of cycles.
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>>101619053
This series never fails to impress me. I was able to understand that image just by using Sayaka as the rosetta stone for its context.
>>
>>101619119
No! We don't want a corrupted Madokami. That would kill Homura inside.
>>
>>101619119
Madoka is always the cutest when she's vulgar and rude.ウェヘヘ
>>
>>101619075
>"You'll become unable to be perceived by anyone"
>"Death would be a kinder fate"
I am calling it a lie. It's not Mami though--the scene is a symbolic hallucination. Its title in the script confirms this.
>>
>>101619176
>She'll be with her as some bodiless mass collective along with everything else in the law of cycles.
Fuck off with this. The presence or absence of an afterlife is never a concern actually brought up in the series, it's an unnecessary complication brought up by fans. If Madoka says Homura will be together with her forever, that's all that's important.
>>
>>101619131
You know, pretty much everyone else in the series was capable of coming to realize that their wish wasn't what they truly wanted. Why can't Homura have that realization and just accept being together with Madoka? Why does she get to stubbornly cling to her original wish like no one else?
>>
>>101619173
So it's quite literal.
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>>101619131
>Homura would be truly in hell if she let Madoka take her away.
No she wouldn't because she would realize that she doesn't have to protect Madoka for anything, that everything is in her head and she already accomplish her mission.
>>
>>101619258
Because she's fought for it for so long and suffered so much because of it. It's all she lives for. What's it been, 7 years straight? Also, the promise.
>>
>>101619228
Alright, just saying that it might not be the same thing as being together normally.

I guess Homura really didn't want to be with Madoka, she just wanted Madoka to be happy.
>>
>>101619258
That wouldn't be the Homu we know and love.
>>
Why do madokafags have to overthink everything just because they believe Madoka is deep?
>>
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>>101619173
The idea is to become a god of your own subjective world and a master of your own fate.
Some would argue that Homura took that first part too literally.
>>
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Reminder that Sayaka is the only one who remembers who Homura really is
>>
>>101619323
>my shitty bait didn't work the first several times, but they say the umpteenth time's the charm!
I'm just posting to make notice of this as a heads up for anyone who is about to make the mistake of taking you seriously.
>>
>>101619176
>Yet she doesn't kill her
Because Madoka told her not to.
>I could never leave my friends, Homura-chan!
>>
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>>101619395
Get that shit out of here.
>>
>>101619314
She wants to be with Madoka, but doesn't think she's worthy.
>>
>>101619382
Not the same dude but I agree with what he's saying
I don't get this obsession
>>
>>101619382
>my shitty existentialism didn't work on this guy, so lets call it bait!
>he doesn't take me seriously so he's trolling
Believe whatever you want, champ
>>
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>>101619307
12 years in the timeloops is the upper estimate, putting her in Christmas Cake territory.
>>101619258
Because her wish is what she truly wanted. You know, just like Mami really wanted to not die, and Madoka wanted to be cool and save others. The concept isn't exclusive to Homura.
>>101619375
But Homura's not a devil, she's a little girl!
>>
>>101619302
But she didn't accomplish shit. She has no purpose, no reason to exist.

>>101619375
Goofy looking bitch
>>
>>101619176
>Yet she doesn't kill her, or go on some mass genocide campaign because something might vaguely threaten Madoka

I think this is an important clue to how Homura is feeling. With her powers she could just make Sayaka disappear, as in, never existed. Have herself take the place of Sayaka and go for childhood friend end.

But not she doesn't do that, in fact she makes Sayaka happy and arranges to have Kyouko sit next to her to help their relationship. Even though Sayaka being from the old universe with unpredictable powers is the most dangerous menace to her new world.

I think that tells you Homura really did have the welfare of all other magical girl in mind (in addition to Madoka) when she did AI YO. There's nothing really evil about her, she want the best for everyone. All that "evil" and "I'm the devil" stuff is just insurance so that some day far in the future when Sayaka and Madoka do recovery their LoC memory they will go "screw that transfer student, if she want to suffer so much let her suffer."

It might work for Sayaka (cos it's Sayaka), but Madoka? Prepare to cry girly tears when Madokami forgives her without a second thought.
>>
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>>101619465
You called her a little girl and a Christmas Cake in the same post, anon.
>>
>>101619465
She's a devil. The most adorable devil there is.
>>
>>101619437
It's not an obsession with overthinking anything. Most meguca threads are about things like lesbians kissing, lewd doujin, best girl wars, autism, image dumping, etc.
Guess what? I love those threads. Is it cool if I also like reading into the symbolism and literary influences that were purposefully put into the story?
>Guys, stop thinking about anime! It's supposed to be about catgirls and breasts!
I'm not saying ^ is your opinion, by the way. I'm just pointing out that is it something people imply all the time, and it's pretty retarded.
>>
>>101619513
Christmas cake in the body of a 14 years old girl, isn't that perfect?
>>
>>101618262

Nietzsche isn't a nihilist. The whole purpose of his philosophy is to find a way past nihilism.

It wouldn't surprise me if this truth escaped Gen, because Gen is an utter moron, however creative he may be.
>>
>>101619557
Her body is kind of strange for a 14 year old in Rebellion. Especially the Devil Homu scenes.
>>
>>101619555
You're the only retard here
>>
>>101619513
They are definitely not mutually exclusive.
>>
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>>101619503
>she want the best for everyone
She only wants the best for Madoka, all the others are just toys to keep Madoka happy, and she can't afford to have toys in poor condition because that can make Madoka sad.
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>>101619513
... I don't get it
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>>101619594
>>
>>101619648
Christmas Cakes are 26 or older.
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Homura did nothing wrong.
>>
>>101619648
No one wants to buy Christmas cakes after the 25th day of the month. In late-20th-century Japan, it was also generally true that no one wanted to marry girls after their 25th birthday.

The concept is mostly gone in modern Japan, but anime fans still like it as an affectionate term.
>>
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>>101619465
>You know, just like Mami really wanted to not die
Mami doesnt want that, she hates herself and she's full of guilt for that wish, what the fuck are you talking about.
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>>101619731
When will Homura stop resetting the world so that everyone can finally grow up and we can see her beautiful and mature body in its perfection?

Until then, fanart will suffice.
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>>101619770
Devil Homura.
>>
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>>101619770
>>
>>101619323
>>101619437
Because there actually is literature and philosophy put into the show and the movie.

"Gott ist tot" for example
>>
>>101619731
Homura looks pretty good with her hair up like that.

>>101619770
Is it bad if I prefer 14 year old Homu?
>>
>>101619795
>Homura in a business suit
My god. Some fanartist was thinking about me.
>>
>>101619643
I believe that whatever mask Homura chooses to wear (and she's very good at wearing masks), she's still the same gentle Moemura underneath throughout all times.

We saw plenty of this in Hommando in the original series and we saw it again in Rebellion where she chose to shoot Mami in the leg rather than head. Even though she can deceive herself into thinking that she killed Moemura inside when she AI YO'd, she hasn't really, it's just buried deeper down, still yearning to get out.

That's why it's eating her up inside. Even though she's acting the Devil now and telling herself "suffering powers me, I enjoy toying with people's memories, the rest of the world can burn as long as Madoka is fine", it's a lie she's telling herself since she still wants to be the Moemura.
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>>101619770
I love how Homura can look fourteen in one image and twenty-eight in the next. She's like the Yukari of Madoka.
>>
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If Hitomi's nightmare was made in Homu, does that mean Homu mentally raped Hitomi?
>>
>>101619853
Hitomi in the dream world was not a figure of Homura's imagination, the real Hitomi was actually inside the labyrinth with the real Kyousuke.

And yeah they're having relationship issues.
>>
I think all the subtle undertones and philosophies behind Homuras actions are all cool and stuff but I'm just gonna pull an Occam's razor here and say the writing is just all over the place and shitty.
>>
>>101619795
>Everyone accepts the new world; even Sayaka's memories become foggy and she doesn't know how to act on them so she just relinquishes herself to the normal world for the time being
>Season 2 starts after a massive timeskip

I would cry buckets of tears. It could be like StrikerS, but without the shitty parts and with all of the Urobuchi themes.
>>
>>101619797
Just because you put a little philosophy doesn't make something that deep. Everything you watch has a bit of philosophy and literature references in it, it's common. You people make it as if it's incredibly incredibly deep when it isn't.
>>
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>>101619834
I agree, but that doesn't mean she is doing shit because she cares about others, she only cares about Madoka and no one else at this point.
>>
>>101619914
Is it subtle undertones, or is it shit writing?
If no one could tell the difference, is there really any difference between the two?
>>
>>101619946
Apparently there is a very blurry line. A lot of classic books started as bargain-bin trash for decades until readers decided the subtle themes outweighed the trash writing.
>>
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>>101619465
>Because her wish is what she truly wanted.
No, what she really wants is to be with Madoka, she just hates herself too much to admit it.
>>
>>101619914
Pull an occam's razor in scientific study is critical and must needed

>But it's a tale about magic
>>
>>101619935
You get out of a work what you put into it.
It just happens that some people are putting thought into the series and what they get out of it is a pretty interesting insight into things they hadn't thought about before.

I wonder if this argument ever came up way back in the day.
>"Hey Goethe, I just want you to know that your work was a fucking mess. The characters are all idiots, the plot is forced, the romance never goes anywhere (just fucking kiss already!) and the ending is a complete asspull. Eternal Feminine? What the fuck? Just because you put a little religion into Faust doesn't make it deep.
>>
>>101620181
Please stop responding to him. He's been desperately trying to derail the thread for hours. Well, it's dead now, but still.
>>
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>>101620058
We're getting there. All in good time, my friend.
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>>101620213
Does that make us dead too? Are we witches now?
>>
>>101620267
What?
>>
>>101620213
Oh, sorry. He went to the effort of forming a coherent train of thought and almost finished an entire sentence without fucking up his grammar. I thought he should be given a consolation prize at least.
>>
>>101620308
WE'RE ALL DEAD AND THIS THREAD IS OUR BARRIER
>>
>>101620391
Yeah, I'm going to watch anime now. It's been fun talking about Rebellion with you.
>>
SO DEEP
>>
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>>101620267
How Can Mirrors Be Real If My Waifu Isnt Real

I feel bad for Jaden. Poor kid's just going through his chuunibyou.
>>
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>>101620445
>>>/out/
>>
>>101619914
It's pretty simple but people overcomplicate it.

>Bowmura is being all cool and fine with everything, dreaming of the day when she gets to be God's wife
>Kyubey realises that he hasn't been a piece of shit in a while, captures Homura for shits and gigs
>Shit happens, Homura understandably breaks cause all the good stuff that was happening would stop, also because she can't go on amusement park dates with Madoka if the incubators are controlling her
>Does crazy shit because she's in a bad state of mind
>Becomes the devil because reasons
>Tries to eat the night but gives up halfway through, leaves the rest for later
>>
>>101619797

That's just surface-level stuff to dazzle an uninformed viewer. It doesn't really signify anything beyond showing that Homura wants to tear down Madoka's godly edifice. He may have read Nietzsche quotes, but he doesn't understand what they actually mean.

It's not any different from his work on Psycho-Pass, a show whose idea of intelligence was having troubled, pessimistic hunter of criminals Kogami reading Heart of Darkness because of all that darkness in people's hearts that he deals with, or having mad genius crazy-person Makishima quoting 18th century European writers solely as a way of showing his brilliance without having to actually write him as smart.

I mean, if you're getting something out of it I guess I can't stop you, but this seems about as productive to me as analyzing Christian symbolism in Evangelion. They're both there for the same reason: because they look cool.
>>
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>>101620478
>Kyubey realises that he hasn't been a piece of shit in a while, captures Homura for shits and gigs
Stop reading right there.
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>>101620478
>Tries to eat the night but gives up halfway through, leaves the rest for later
>>
>>101620532
You're just baseless assuming this shit, there's no other explanation. Otherwise, you'd know that all the references do means something. They aren't like Eva's Christain symbolism. Just fuck off you retard. Madoka is deep, I'm sorry that offends you or baffles you or some shit. Get over it.
>>
Thanks you /a/, right after Rebellion I had a distaste for Homura for what she did, but I always felt there were some more complex layers to her and her actions that I wasn't "getting". Talking with you and putting my thoughts down in words (and seeing that manga ending) has allowed me to organise them into a coherent interpretation. I can now sleep easier.
>>
>>101620478
>people think about it above a third grade level unlike me
>t-they're just over thinking it
Fuck off retard.
>>
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>>101620532
>they are there to show an alternative way of show the personality/intentions/etc of the characters, no wait, actually they are just there to look cool.
>>
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>>101620649
Sure is some newfag going on here....
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>>101620755
>i rather have mah best gurl wars why are these guys talking about this deep shit what is literature waaah they're using big words i dont like that!
>>
>>101620680
Soon you will return the first state of mind. If you making deep thought again and again.

It can't be helped. It's spiral.
>>
>>101620532
The lolDEEP literature references in Psycho-Piss were Makoto Fukami's idea
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>>101620532
>>101620755
That's a pretty unfair analogy. NGE gets a bad rap for Christian pretenses when that wasn't the point of the story. The themes playing into Eva are psychological and the influences of famous psychologists on the writers are quite clearly demonstrated and referenced. Understanding where Eva is coming from in this aspect is by no means necessary to understanding it, but it certainly adds depth.

Same with Madoka. And yes, there are a lot of references and influences that are very loose or obscure, but that doesn't make them irrelevant.

...Oh, who am I kidding. You're the same troll who's been in the thread the whole time, right?

>>101620680
Always a pleasure, Homufags.
>>
>>101620532
>I mean, if you're getting something out of it I guess I can't stop you, but this seems about as productive to me as analyzing Christian symbolism in Evangelion. They're both there for the same reason: because they look cool.

What's hilarious is this is exactly the same things detractors of evangelion were saying 18 years ago and look were that went.
>>
>>101620889
>You're the same troll who's been in the thread the whole time, right?
Probably. Now that the discussion died down his posts are getting more attention. He's probably upset because this thread was more than a color war. Poor fool feels left out when people start talking about things with depth.
>>
>>101620932
NGE is entry anime for a lot of people so it can't be helped that it's always being discussed. I just hope there aren't a lot of poor souls who have been obsessed with Eva for 18 years.
>>
>>101620889
Jung and Freud were not psychologists. Psychology is a science, after all, and they were not scientists. They told cool stories about the psyche, maybe, but that's it
>>
>>101620977
What does that have to do with anything.
>>
Speaking as a sayakafag, I feel kind of disappointed.

Yes Sayaka got a lot of the spot light, can't complain about that. And now she's freshly back from yuri heaven and is all at peace with herself and more mature now. I love that scene where Sayaka was suggesting to Homura that building a dream world to scape from suffering is not necessarily a bad thing.

But something is missing. We didn't really get into this new Sayaka's head. I remember someone once said, you only see a character's true colour when they're in a crisis, everything else is just fluff. In the series Sayaka certainly was in a crisis and we saw straight to the core of her being with all her good points and bad points laid out to show. And it was exhilarating.

There's nothing like that for this new Sayaka, and I feel we don't really know her any more.
>>
>>101621039
That's the "psychology" Eva is based on
>>
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>>101620889
Nah, but you guys do have a tendency to over-analyze everything. Most of which is just sadly pure BS.

Pic very related (even though this was actually a cool theory- Trigger didn't have any of it in mind).

Why does Homura become the way she is? Because Shinbo wanted to make a potential second season of Madoka, and asked Gen to smooth it out in the script. It was forced, and any meaning there was is pure pretension on Gen's part.

It's all about the merchandising.
>>
>>101621072
The story is about Homura, everyone else is a side character. You'll see more of Sayaka in the next installment.
>>
>>101621104
>Because Shinbo wanted to make a potential second season of Madoka,
Here we go with this imbecilic meta bullshit.
>>
>>101620709
Maybe the Eva comparison was going too far. I couldn't really resist it. They do have a meaning, but it's not anything beyond the words on the cover.

Homura may want to end Madoka's self-denial, but that doesn't make her Nietzscheian. Nietzsche was about the rejection of old ideals, but only so that something new and beautiful could exist. Homura uses her power to rebuild an idealized past that she wants to capture, hold, and preserve forever. That's death.

But most people don't know anything about Nietzsche besides "God is dead" and "He who battles with monsters must take care lest he become a monster" and so they just make up the rest and assume it's nihilism.

>>101620889

I agree about Eva. All the psychological stuff there is interesting to get into to some degree. The Christian and Jewish mysticism is both entirely tangential to it and pretty much irrelevant to the series' main themes.

I'm not the same troll, but you can think what you want.
>>
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>>101620964
Who knows, right? Maybe he's the smartest one in the thread and he likes playing the fool. Maybe he's an anon who has had too much to drink tonight. Perhaps he is fifteen years old and going through chuunibyou?

It's impossible to judge a person based on some anonymous nonsense on the internet. However, it's definitely apparent to anyone around that you can't improve your own life just by trolling people on /a/ all night long.

See, some people use hobbies as a platform to develop their lifestyle choices and way of thinking rather than using them as escapism. Therein lies the value in threads like this to me.
>>
>>101621169
Because Shinbo has never sold out before, right?
>>
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>>101621104
>even though this was actually a cool theory- Trigger didn't have any of it in mind
I know that feel all too well.
>>
>>101621194
Look, anon. When you see a poster spouting retarded shit, there's no way of knowing if he's actually retarded or if he's just pretending to be retarded. All you can do is assume he's retarded and treat him like a retard, or ignore him. Seeing how it's impossible for people to take the latter course of action, then next best thing is to just call him retarded.
>>
>>101621221
What does the business side of anime have to do with the discussion of the story and it's philosophical under pinnings?

Are you suggesting that the ending was tacked on just for commercial gain and has absolutely no connection to the entire series?
If so wouldn't a cookie cutter movie of cute girls having cute adventures been more appropriate instead of the beautiful piece of art we got?
>>
>>101621170
>They do have a meaning, but it's not anything beyond the words on the cover.
And that is the meaning and the intention with which they used it, nothing more, nothing less, don't know what your problem is.
>>
>>101621460
I was looking at the first post of the thread.

>>101614625
>I love Urobuchi and SHAFT for turning the series into what is basically a big analogy for the existential conflict between Nietzsche and Kirkegaard.

This is bullshit.

Maybe I'm the one who was trolled all along by not reading all 300 posts, for bringing back a discussion point that you all have hopefully dismissed.
>>
>>101621555
Why the fuck are you taking a tripfag seriously?
>>
>>101621555
>This is bullshit.
You should backup you claims.
>>
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>>101621455
>the beautiful piece of art we got?
Nah, nigga, nah, shit is decent but call it art is just an insult to the original series.
>>
>>101621170
>Homura uses her power to rebuild an idealized past that she wants to capture, hold, and preserve forever. That's death.
You think so? I see a fondness for eternal recurrence in Homura's intentions. Nietzsche writes the desire for eternal return is the ultimate affirmation of life. When she took in her own despair--her own pain and suffering--I couldn't help but think of 'amor fati'.

Coupled with the salmander as a symbol for death and rebirth, and the record player as a symbol for looping, this all makes for a very interesting look at Homura.

Of course, your point still stands in that Nietzsche isn't the sole deciding factor in Homura's character. It's not like one can predict her actions just by studying him. But I believe that Nietzsche is a huge influence on her character.

>I'm not the same troll, but you can think what you want.
That's all it takes is that statement and a willingness to avoid insults, really. For some reason the majority of samefag trolls never actually deny their samefagging, they just call you a retard.
>>
>>101621455
>beautiful piece of art we got

Goddamn, you really are one of those obsessive Madokafags all over Tumblr, aren't you?

What we're discussing her is what the original intention of the creators was- any philosophy YOU derive from it is yours. Don't try to force what isn't there onto the rest of us. There is no hidden message about what Shinbo and Gen did, and if you can't accept it, go back to writing your little fanfic.
>>
>Protip, newfag OP. All the deep literature shit and even the Faust shit in Madoka was due to Inu Curry, not Gen,

>In Psycho Pass, the literature namedropping wasn't even done by Gen but by someone else.

>Gen is someone who has stated that 1984 was too hard a novel for him to understand.

>Gen ain't the DEEPfag you thought he was, OP.

>You're giving Gen all the credit for someone else's work.

Also Saya no Uta is Tazuka's Phoenix rip off
>>
>>101621891
>Faust shit in Madoka was due to Inu Curry, not Gen
Stop reading right there.
>>
what is inu curry?
>>
>>101621555
Yo, I was just making a bold statement to start the thread. i.e. pretending to be retarded.
I incorrectly assumed it would go without saying that there are a large variety of factors more important to Madoka Magica than existentialism. I thought it would be fun and interesting to talk about this for one thread to mix things up.
>>
>>101621740
>I see a fondness for eternal recurrence in Homura's intentions

What? I would've thought she hated recurrence? What with all the bitter memories of the looping timelines.

I've heard of a good theory about weather in the series. At the start of the 47 day loop the weather is bright and sunny. Towards the end it becomes overcast and stormy with the biggest storms around when Sayaka ran away from home and Walpurgis Night.

I've seen many doujin artists also noticing this pattern and at the end of their doujin when Homura have to loop again they have her say something like "One day, I'll take you hand and we'll run through all this darkness, through the furthest door and into the light" or something to that effect. Note that once Madoka defeat Walpurgis Night the weather instantly changes into a sunny morning.

So I would figure Homura would have a particular aversion post timelines to anything with a looping pattern, weather included.
>>
Original series without Rebellion is pointless now. Someone who thinks otherwise is just mad faggot.
It's like if NGE would end on 24th episode.
>>
>>101622015
Why would she hate it? She has no reason to curse her fate. All of her pain and suffering were for the sake of the person she loves. I thought that was the conclusion she came to that gave her so much power.
>>101621941
An artistic duo. Google is your ally.
>>
>>101621591
You're right. What was I thinking? Can't forget to check that name line.

>>101621740
I see how you can get that line of thinking, because it makes sense on the surface. But life isn't the eternal return to a single point; it's a whole, unending continuum. Every moment we live will occur again and again. Learning to love the recurrence is to love all of those moments. But Homura wants to change the past, erase those moments, and hold the world in an unchanging ideal present, where the suffering from before will never recur.

>>101622014
Well, you got me there.
>>
>>101622104
Well it's like this, the Hommando persona is a part of her that she adopted to give her the strength to save the person she loves. But that doesn't mean she enjoys being Hommando. Given the chance she will want to revert to something else.

Timeloops are the same, there were necessary, but they are probably times Homura would rather forget.
>>
>>101621815
Not that anon, but
>coming into a discussion thread about Madoka and philosophy
>claiming others are forcing philosophy on you
Really? You really gonna play us like that?
>>
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>>101622261

THIS

>>101621815


Also it's not that kind of new that these topics occour in Madoka threads.
>>
>series will continue
>they made this ending to continue franchise
so much delusional faggots here.
you will wait your sequel for 10 years.
>>
>>101622146
I do think that the Nietzschean influence tapers off at the surface and becomes nebulous.
>But Homura wants to change the past, erase those moments, and hold the world in an unchanging ideal present, where the suffering from before will never recur.
I do wonder about this though. The only thing she's done for the sake of alteration is bring Madoka back. Everything else is speculation that seems quite shaky to me, considering it has no basis in any of the character archetypes she's built upon.
If she wanted to become a god of the new world, she could have viewed herself in that light. But she doesn't, she takes the form of a devil because she considers herself one who has corrupted a god.

So, rather than holding the world within a loop, she has a reason to portray an antagonist, and I must wonder why. Maybe she will play straight to her archetype's familiarity with the tragic 'i rused you all. I wasn't a villain, I was doing it for your happiness the whole time' as she dies. Maybe the direction will go entirely elsewhere, who knows?

That's the thing about these blasted installments to a series. It makes you wonder if they've planned any overarching story or if they're just going to wing it every time.
>>
>>101622691
Yes anon, thank you for pointing out to me the post that I was replying to.
>>
>>101619893
>Even in an ideal world, they were having relationship issues.
Damn.
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>>101623532
Kyousuke couldn't keep up if he tried.
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>>101623589

If she'd have just known how it would have been for Kamijo and her to live together. That it wouldn't have been worth the wish.

Idiot Sayaka
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>>101623589
It was the fault of both, don't try to put all the blame on Kyousuke for chasing his dream.
>>
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>>101623532
It's even worse for Saotome and Nakazawa.

Saotome in the real world
>Complains about the men she meets complaining over meaningless shit like eggs

Saotome in Homulilly's barrier:
>Complains that she can't even get a man

Nakazawa in the real world:
>It doesn't really matter either way, does it?

Nakazawa in Homulilly's barrier:
>I don't understand what the FUCK is going on
>>
>>101614625

I still haven't seen it yet. It wasn't released in my village and there are no streams of it anywhere.


I guess it not matter much because it is duplicate of original television series, correct?
>>
Threadly reminder that HomuHomu did everything wrong
>>
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>>101623937
Sometimes you have to do everything wrong to get the right results
>>
>>101623731
Well, no regrets and all that, but if I were her I wouldn't went with something much more creative and unselfish, like, "Heal everyone in the hospital!" or "Grant me the power to regen others.
>>101623818
I'm not saying that Hitomi isn't a sheltered rich girl, or that she isn't going to be one half of the mistakes of their relationship. I'm just saying she's got oomph.
>>
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>season 2
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>>101624186
Silly Elevens, Homura isn't an oni!
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>>101623924
>streams
>duplicate of original television series, correct?
>>
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>>101624186
I fucking hate that outfit, why the fuck Homura dress like a slut?
>>
>>101624256
>implying lewd Homora is bad
>>
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>>101624256
It's cool, probably. Also to seduce Madoka.
>>
Where were Homura's parents?
>>
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>>101624256
It's not like her other outfits are better, because she undress like a slut too.
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>>101624256
How should a devil dress?
>>
>>101624431
Being irrelevant and nonexistent like always.
>>
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>>101624476
>>
>>101624431
Probably in an alleyway chewing on fish bones. Madoka wished to save Amy, but she didn't think about her parents.
>>
>>101624476
Naked
>>
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>>101624380
Is stupid, it's not sexy, it doesn't represent Homura at all, she isn't interested in Madoka opinion at that point and I hate it.
>>
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>>101624555
There is glorious Hanokage dress. It only got a few panels but that was all I needed.
>>
>>101624713
>That image
Yup, we've had this conversation before
Excited for Homura's new figurine?
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>>101624565
>cat speculah
Well, that's nostalgic.
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My God this thread is still alive...
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>>101624787
It never died. Ume-tentei agreed; this is her casual wear, when she has nothing to conceal.
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>>101625036
not anymore! eat bump limit, cockfaggot!
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>>101625120
Ume just loves her fetish outfits.
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>>101624713
You're stupid, and you don't represent Homura, and your opinion is wrong, and I am not particularly fond of you.
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>>101625168
>>101625201
We could have the best of both worlds if she drew Akuma Homura. In fact, the whole movie's style was slightly less wide than I was prepared for. I want to see Ume-tentei draw all of the Homus.
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>>101625371
Didn't she design the outfit?
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>>101622261
>>101622691

There's a fine line between philosophy and bullshit. My point is that the ending was tacked on and not some representation of an ideology or greater moral message or whatever the fuck it is you are looking for, because it was commercial in nature. The plot was forced, and not part of the original script.

It's fine to interpret it however you want, but when you start going around as if Gen came up with the idea in the first place and how he layered all his Nihilistic messages or whatever the hell into it, then you're just reaching and shoving words in his mouth.
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>>101625442
No one argued against that point. It was just written off for being meta and unnecessary to the appreciation of the film.
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>>101625429
I dunno. If she did, why don't we get to see her sketches!?
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>>101625442
>the ending was tacked on
>The plot was forced, and not part of the original script.

I hope you mean Rebellion was tacked onto the end of the series, and not that devil Homura was tacked onto the end of Rebellion.
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>>101625442
Isn't Gen somewhat of an idealist?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you don't need to discredit the ending entirely just because some people want to apply their silly pointless nihilism/existential philosophies to it.

It's suppose to be something about love vs law, or order vs desire, or whatever.
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>>101625429
I don't think so, there's nothing in the pamphlet or the interview and we just have this image.
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>>101625442
The plot was forced, and not part of the original script.
This is wrong. Urobuchi made it clear way back in interviews from late '11 and early '12 that he was having trouble writing up his first draft until Shinbo gave him suggestions and he went from there.

You're of course entitled to think whatever you want of the fact that PMMM wasn't intended to go beyond the TV series. Just get your shit straight; when you're wrong about so much, it makes the people reading your post wonder if your opinions are just based off of ignorance.
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>>101625442
>The plot was forced
>Gen: I really agreed that Homura might be plausible as Madoka’s equal opposite.
Hmm?
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>>101625830
>nothing in the pamphlet or the interview
when will people understand how little this means
obviously they're not going to give an answer to a question that hasn't been asked.
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>>101625442
there was no original script before that.
Gen just didn't have any original ideas how the story should end until Shinbo suggested him.
You seems like some mad faggot.
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>>101616007
>there will never be an evangelion as madoka as anime



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