Bazett and Lancer is the strongest master servant combo. They would win both wars in 2 days. Discuss.
I will come back and reply once I have studied this matter in Fate Hollow Ataraxia. 10 years for the translation seems like a good estimate.
Yup, nothing to discuss here. Even Nasu said it that they would win 9 HGW out of 10 if they fought as a proper team.
And frankly, the only enemy I could fathom those two having trouble is with Berserker, they would just swipe the rest of the servants effordlessly.
Why even bother when the Vita version is going to be voiced?
They were a pretty good combo in the first war right?
W-wait. What? I didn't even know about this.
They have no way of defeating Berserker though. Only if they targeted Ilya, which would still be fucking hard as Berserker is always with her.
Or Gilgamesh for that matter.
The wait has become pointless.
Cu fought off Gil for 12 hours when he was gimped and didn't have independent action.
First from our perspective, sorry. She got ambushed and died in the 4th war obviously. Lancer failed to stop that as well. Was just poking fun at the OP's premise.
Really didn't know. Thank you. Even if people prefer the PC version, this gives an opportunity for someone to port over the voices much like in Fate, should someone not lazy enough decide to do it.
Nasu said that Cu alone is enough to defeat Berzerker because of runes but it would be a very uphill battle. But at least while Berzerker is occupied Bazett could go after Ilya.
Also Gilgamesh would get raped hard by Cu&Bazett combo because he has a horrible compatibility.
Lancer nerfed hard was able to hold off Gil for 12 hours. And Bazett has the exact perfect tool to use against NP spamming, so even if Gil opens GoB he'll die, not to mention that he is also against Lancer.
Anon, get your fact straight. He was backstabbed by the only man in the world she ever trusted as a friend of the sorts and the one who invited her to the war in the first place during the 5th war while Lancer was out scouting.
>Nasu said that Cu alone is enough to defeat Berzerker because of runes but it would be a very uphill battle.
So, Lancer has 11 different runes of A class magic that can kill Berserker, along with his Gay Bulge? Why were they not in the status screen?
Sometimes, Nasu does pull shit from his ass.
> And Bazett has the exact perfect tool to use against NP spamming
Actually, her NP is only good against a "Trump Card" type of move. Gil has so many that he does not even use the effects or special moves of, he just slings them at people with minimal effort. Fragarach would be shit against GoB.
Nothing guarantees that Fragarach is going to trigger on Gate of Babylon.
>Nasu said that Cu alone is enough to defeat Berzerker because of runes but it would be a very uphill battle.
Quit fanwanking, retard.
Nasu said Lancer would get his shit wrecked by Hercules and that Lancer could only temporarily turn his spear into A-rank with his runes but after that, he is fucked.
Would Fragarach fire against GOB? I thought Nasu had described it as working against servants ultimate attacks meaning Ea. Not a moon reader, so haven't read Hollow to see if it is described in detail.
Fragarach will not trigger on GoB. None of the shit Gil throws from it is his "ultimate" attack.
Ea is his trump card, and he wouldnt use that on Bazett. Hell, im not even sure Fragarach would work against Ea.
No, his runes upgrade his gay bulge to rank A for some time to be able to pass God hand. However he has enough runes to slightly change his Rank A gay bulge so it doesn't count for God Hand.
He would have to unleash his NP 12 times changing it a little each time while the buff is on. Considering the mana usage and that Berzerker is a fucking beast, it's not an easy fight at all.
Well, it would only work once.
As soon as Gay Bulge has killed Berserker once, God Hand makes it invalid.
So you are chatting shit.
Not true at all, OP
The only Master Servant combo that countless won wars was Bazett and Avenger and F/HA pretty much states it flat out that Bazett and Avenger kept winning and winning wars but Avenger was unsatisfied because they still had not reached a timeline that could allow Bazett's wish to come true so that is why Avenger kept resetting and resetting the timeline despite winning all those wars with Bazett.
>However he has enough runes to slightly change his Rank A gay bulge so it doesn't count for God Hand.
Quit pulling shit out of your ass.
If they were so strong how'd they lose to Kotomine?
No you're wrong. He said that the only servant without an A rank NP that had 1 chance (read one in a million) to defeat berzerker would be Lancer. And that it would be a very uphill battle, so yeah he would probably get his shit wrecked 99% of the times.
He also said that Caster or Assassin woud get throughly raped by him.
That's a funny way of saying they wouldn't win either war.
Lancer will always get shrecked by Hercules.
Hell, his runes arnt even guranteed to buff anything. One just summons fire.
>Q. Lancer, Caster, Assassin, and True Assassins; all with normal attack and Noble Phantasms of B or lower. If they fought against Berserker, wouldn't it be a one-sided fight? Or are there any of them that can match up against him?
>A: Assassin and True Assassin by themselves wouldn't even be a fight. Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances". Caster has two front-line Saber-class defenders, so if she uses her high sorcery then she'd be able to deal damage, but that would be limited to 2 to 3 times. Also, in the game, Assassin was able to push Berserker back because of the terrain advantage and support from Caster (weighing down Berserker's body). ...Well, since the compatibility of Assassin and Berserker is horrible, the fact that Berserker was even pushed back is enough to say "whoah, Kojirou's amazing".
Source: Comptiq 2006-03 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A:
I don't understand how this even works. If God Hand makes Berserker invincible to anything short of A-rank, and Fake Assassin can't reach A-rank, how can he possibly repel Berserker? 'Weigh him down' all you like, all he has to do is stand there until Caster runs out of magical energy and then just walk forward in a straight line up the stairs because Assassin literally can't do a thing to him.
>Running out of magical energy
Maybe Ilya got bored of seeing Berzerker go up at the pace of a turtle and called it a night.
In which case how could he retreat? Caster's magic must have stopped him completely or else he would've simply walked up the stairs, slapped Assassin out of the way and squashed Caster and Kuzuki like ants. But if that's true and he was completely immobile, why would Caster let Berserker escape when she could keep him weighed down with magic and just send Assassin to chop Ilya into chunks?
Nearly no hope against Ilyasviel/Berserker.
With Lancer using all his runes, it is only a "fight with some chances" rather than anything close to even.
To correct that guy: he has the same strength-boosting runes that Bazett has on her cuffs, it improves his strength enough to count as A rank attacks.
This gives him the slightest chance to fight Herakles, and probably kill him once.
However, God Hand is a learning ability, it doesn't fail to the same move twice. Either he'll need to get a super-critical with Gae Bolg to kill him six times in two shots, or hope he's already lost some lives in previous battles.
Yeah, as said above the only way would be aiming Ilya, but considering zerker it wouldn't be easy at all.
Caster's reinforcement turns a human fistfighter into a servant-slaying beast.
What the fuck do you think it will do to a swordsman already on the level of heroes by pure talent?
Couldn't he use the multiple spear throw he did to Archer in UBW?
In Sabers route, Archer managed to kill Herc 6(?) times with sword techniques.
Lancer could just do the same.
>All of the decent lewd scenes gone
No thanks m8
She doesn't have to stand right next to Berserker. She was probably standing far enough away that Assassin couldn't get her.
That would be the second shot.
Thrust form and throw form. Then maybe grant a mundane kill with a thrust. He'd need to kill Herakles 12 times with a maximum of 3 potential maneuvers.
Even throw in Bazett using Fragarach and it's still a very long stretch.
Lancer could try to use Gae Bolg on Ilyasviel instead, and try to make the cursed spear travel a route around Berserker somehow, but that would be a serious challenge and only make Herakles furious to the extreme until Ilyasviel actually passes on.
No, Archer used various projections from his reality marble. Probably overloaded them and made them broken phantasms.
Archer has a LOT OF FUCKING SWORDS. Each of his six kills were unrelated to each other.
Lancer has.. Gae Bolg and B rank magic. Gae Bolg has two separate functions.
God Hand does not fall to the same technique twice. There are only so many ways to poke a man with a spear.
Archer used different weapons and abilities each time. Hercules counters one-trick ponies, and lancer can only use runes, a few times, Gae Bolg once, and maybe Fragarach once. He'd come up short.
Assassin cannot leave the stairs.
Then why didn't she just have Assassin wipe the floor with Saber the instant she stepped through the front door? The answer is that Caster only increases Kuzuki's strength and speed, but not close to Servant level. He only beats Saber by sucker punching her and then beating the hell out of her before she has time to realise she should take him seriously. She mentions later that she'd absolutely wipe the floor with him in a second fight when she actually knew she was going to have a fight.
We have no clue as to whether Caster reinforcing Assassin would make him able to hurt Berserker.
Caster could just nuke her, then.
Caster doesn't want Saber dead. Did you even read the VN? She wants to enslave Saber with Rule Breaker and use her as a weapon against Berserker.
Because Assassin can't do shit. He might not be able to hurt Herakles, but he might be able to impart enough power to halt his advance (matching strength with strength) with Caster at his back.
Can't they just port the voices?
He cut his neck, slashed from his shoulder to his groin, big hole in his chest and cut open his stomach.
Those were different ways to kill him using the same type of weapon, which lancer might be able to do the same type of thing
That could work, but we don't know if she could do that while holding down Berserker.
Please, we all know the real reason she wanted Saber.
Who the fuck says Archer was using the same weapon?
His entire ability is to pull a new sword out when one has stopped working.
Magecraft is OP for making Garage Kits.
It never says he used the same weapon of a different weapon.
The times where he managed to blow off herc's legs or arms I assumed he overloaded weapons and shot them.
What was the reasoning used when Caliburn took 6 lives from Herc?
The only evidence we have of the fight is DEEN/Stay Night, but in that fight he rotated weapons after each kill.
Of course, that fight is trash since he manages to not finish berserker despite activating UBW.
Overkill. There was no resurrection + Applied immunity, there were just six consecutive kills.
Reunion event made it overkill or something along those lines?
I don't want to believe.
Probably about 70% verified.
So about 5 more months?
Now to wait for it all to be verified.
Berserker was like "What the actual fuck, this nigga had 6 different A-rank NP's."
Kirei invited her to the war? I'm pretty sure she was just sent by the Magus Association... Kirei didn't invite her.
Why is it pointless just because it's voiced?
They're definitely the hottest.
WHY DID THEY NOT FUCK IN THE GAME? GOD DAMMIT NASU
I'm holding out for this, personally. I hope someone can be arsed to make a voicepatch for it like for Fate.
If Saber/Archer had fought Berserker together in Fate, could they have beaten him?
This is assuming Saber hasn't used her NP yet so she is still full powered.
There is no indication that the Archer of Fate route knew how to use UBW.
Archer/Shriou outside of UBW is far, far weaker than inside of it. He still wrecked shit, but the implication of Fate route is that Archer's memory was still pretty fucked by the botched summoning.
If Rin wasn't a dumbass Archer is so unbelievably broken she'd have to try to lose.
The participants barring Bazette and Illya were not really suited for the 5th War.
That was sort of the point. The timing of the war was fucked due to the bombs Kiritsugu laid after the 4th HGW to try and stop it altogether.
Sort of funny how ridiculously powerful servants, moreso than the 4th war, came to be with weak masters. Waver and Ryuunosuke were pretty poor masters all things considered, but still, at least they had the mindset.
Although Rin was an accomplished magus at that age, so I guess she qualifies. She did have a rather absurd prana capacity, and did some pretty crazy magic that was beyond what most magi could do.
Oh brother. Archer's memory was fine. He intentionally hid his identity from Rin so that he could enact his plan to off Shirou at any time. At no point was Archer suffering from amnesia.
Where exactly does it imply Archer's memory was fucked from the summoning? Where does he even show evidence (other than the very beginning, which can easily be attributed to the fact that he doesn't want to tell Rin his identity) that his memory is fucked?
It has been a long time since I read it, but I believe that Archer probably wouldn't have dodged the question in quite the way he did if he had full control of his memories. His hostility towards Shirou, outside of a potshot near Saber during their tag team on Berserker, was much more muted than in the other routes as well.
The big thing is why didn't he use UBW? He had no qualms about using it in UBW route. He probably COULD have killed Berserker with ease had he done so- look at what Shirou did when he traced Caliburn.
What made the two combined so strong compared to the two separately? I havn't read ataraxia but at least in Fate stay night Lancer was a jobber and Bazett was killed.
Question, if Shirou didn't have Avalon with him, would he had summoned Archer instead?
That would be fun.
>look at what Shirou did when he traced Caliburn.
>Why doesn't Assassin take Ryuudou Temple wherever he goes?
I think Seiba injuring him early in Fate, made him think twice before acting his kill self quest since Team idiot would be dangerous and might place Rin in danger.
UBW has one less idiot in Team idiot might gave the opening to murder Shirou.
Bazett is trained to kill. She can fist Shirou, Rin, Shinji, Sakura or Zouken to death. Team Illya, Team Caster and Team REJOICE will be difficult for them to defeat though.
Cu with proper usage can kill anyone except Seiba since Luck roll.
Don't you normally summon a servant with the best compatibility with you if you don't use a catalyst?
Unless his own body counts as a catalyst?
Impossible because Rin had already summoned Archer a (?) day before.
>Unless his own body counts as a catalyst?
Maybe, but didn't Shirou also have Rin's Jewel as the time Cu attack his house? And that's how Rin summoned Archer in the first place right?
>Archer probably wouldn't have dodged the question in quite the way he did if he had full control of his memories.
It was the only way to dodge the question. He can keep everything about himself a secret by not reveling his own identity.
I can't see her being able to beat an invincibly regenerating Kiritsugu after Saber limps away with a stabbed heart. I mean team Kiritsugu was able to manage with an injured Saber for a pretty long time. Then you also have the Fate next encounter combo with Gilgamesh and Kiritsugu to contend with.
Archer was already summoned at the point, i doubt you can summon copies of the exact same servant.
...Wouldn't they lose to Gilgamesh?
Gilgamesh himself has no trump cards. Everything is merely a "tool" to him, so Fragarach would be worthless against him.
Didn't the progress of HA translation reach 100%? When the fuck will they release the full patch...?
>If Rin wasn't a dumbass Archer is so unbelievably broken she'd have to try to lose.
I dunno if it's that Archer is a broken servant, it's that he's being summoned by a genius magi which will hugely up his stats, and doesn't he also have the "homefield advantage" stat bonus stacked with that?
In that case how can kotomine is able to ambush her and kill her so easily?
Did Shirou fuck Bazett in HA?
Depends if Gil uses that sword that Cu has a geas to get hit by or not i guess. Using EA is a auto-lose for him. Endiku would also set Cu back quite a bit being divine and all
Even having an amazing Master won't boost his stats beyond a certain point, and he has zero fame so he won't receive any backup from that either.
His main strength is that he knows every single Servant in the 5th War and has a virtually limitless supply of Noble Phantasms.
Because normally the overseer for the war isn't a participant of the war.
The homefield advantage relies upon the fame of the heroic spirit being greatest in their place of origin, however as Archer is from the future, there is no fame from which he may draw power.
In that case how come kotomine is able to ambush her and kill her so easily?
It wouldn't work, since Gil isn't from Ulster. Regardless, chances are he won't even resort to Ea for this.
It would be a long drawn out battle, but gil "should" win. Using the chains early on would make the fight end faster however.
Wasn't archer still dealing with the wound Saber gave him at the beginning of the Fate route?
I assumed that kind of handicap would prevent him from properly using UBW
Its widely assumed it did
Bazett is the only human who has a noble phantasm. And Fragarach is pretty much perfectly suited with Gae Bolg. If any broken shit managed to happen and dodge the spear instakill, Fragarach activates for another instakill.
Berserker has no instakill though and even if he did it'll only work once
Lancer is a good counter for normal combat, and Fragarach is a auto-counter for Trump cards. they would only have issues with somebody with overwhelming firepower (Gilgamesh) and somebody with multiple lives (Hercules)
As long as Saiba doesn't use Excalibur I think with Rin as her master has good odds against them
Didn't archer single-handedly kill Berserker like 7 times in Fate?
Lancer with Gae Bolg would kill or severely injure Saber, Just think what would have happened if Cu didn't retreat on the 2nd day. and you can't tell me with a serious face that Rin can beat Bazett in a fight.
I might be a slowpoke but I just realized another problem with Zero. Every single Master has their Command Spells in the exact same spot.
Bazett is a top-tier mage. Rin is not.
Exactly my point, although it is worth noting that Rin in the future will be a top tier maguc
Wouldn't Kirei and Gilgamesh wipe the entire floor with them if they were actually serious and not playing around?
Who the fuck is Bazett
Mail-Grudded Gil could be defeated by a variety of servants under the right conditions.
Yep, the only reason Gil lost was because he was arrogant/not trying.
If he was serious those conditions wouldn't have happen is the point.
Hush little TM fan don't say a word
to be honest if he was serious, Tokiomi would have won the last war and the 5th war wouldn't have happened to begin with.
Archer and Kerry would be an interesting dynamic if done right
For example, if two decent servants teamed up just to take down Gil, or if a master acquired specific munitions perfect for fighting against him. A bit of preparation, that's all that would have really been needed to take him down. Most of the masters in the fifth grail war were retarded.
Gil didn't like him and he had a high rank in Independent Action is what shafted him
They're attempting to do this but it isn't possible given that Vita's specifics haven't been as nearly well tweaked at as the PSP.
What some people on BL proposaled was to invest in some audio recording equipment and literally record every single voice in the game.
Of course, who knows how long that and translation verification will take. I'm estimating ~2 more years.
If we consider the wait for Tsukihime's remake, I'd say its far more worthwhile to dedicate your time into learning Japanese likewise to what I'm doing.
Too be fair a lot of the participants weren't really intentional or magi
Casters master whose name I don't feel like googling
With Kotomine fucking everything up
Yes but the war would have ended on the 1st or 2nd day if Gilgamesh was serious. not enough time for Gilgamesh to get very moody to begin with.
He can fight up to 5 servants at once at maximum before getting overwhelmed. it would be possible to kill him if you had a used a plan that played off his Ego but, if he was serious the war would have ended Very quickly with his victory.
>literally record every single voice in the game.
Yep, the fifth war was full of special snowflakes. The families weren't very prepared for the next war because it happened too early after the mess the 4th war was. Wait a few years and perhaps it would have been a bit more professional.
>He can fight up to 5 servants at once at maximum before getting overwhelmed.
This is bullshit. Several of the servants were able to hold their own against him. 5th war Gil was nerfed to hell and back.
Karna or a non retarded Herc could probably take him
Archer Herc and Karna are almost as broken as Gilgamesh.
You simply don't get what kind of firepower Gilgamesh has when he is at full power, go play F/HA or F/E CCC. His stats besides his NP mean jack all.
Even non-insane Herc couldn't beat him because he has Enkidu.
It depends if Archer Herc can break the chains or not tbh
>when he is at full power
Except he isn't at full power in F/SN. That's what I'm saying.
Original master of 5th Grail War Lancer. Kirei betrayed her and stole Lancer.
His NP are at full power in F/SN, which is all that matters when it comes to Gilgamesh he just simply doesn't use them at full power in F/SN.
Even his NP is nerfed in F/SN. Otherwise he would have destroyed Shirou in UBW.
no he was dicking around until it was too late. A common misconsiption is that Ea is main NP its technically when says Enush whatever is what activates it that is why Rho was able to block it
Lancelot and Sakura would be boring as fuck. Rider and Rin would definitely be interesting, but frankly any teenage Master would be interesting with him. Archer and Kerry would be also good.
Expect that his NP stat is always EX. regardless
Rider with ANYONE, with the possible exception of Kerry because of how he stays away from his servants, is interesting. Hes a very entertaining character
>Lancer was stolen and then killed himself in both wars
So, what would happen differently?
>any teenage Master would be interesting with him
Is Waver technically not a teenage master?
Kerry would win if he didn't get on Gil's bad side.
Depends if Gilgamesh gets interested in Kerry or not honestly.
>Is Waver technically not a teenage master?
We don't know his age IIRC
I don't see him working that well with Kirei, Tokiomi, Ryunosuke, or Zouken. Kirei, maybe, but the others definitely not.
He's in college, he's immature, and he's clearly not a fully-developed mage. Close enough to "teenager".
Gil would kill Kerry on the first day.
Kariya + Caster would be a really stupid pairing. Kayneth and Lancelot would be cool if it weren't for the fact that Lancelot is Berserker.
I actually imagine Gil trying to push Kerry to the limit of his ideals. You know, 'The paladin falls' scenarios.
Why wasn't Gil summoned prior to the fourth war?
For all we know he could have been summoned in the first or second war. we don't know what servants were summoned then.
Why would he be? He was only summoned in the fourth because Tokimoi used the fossilized snake skin as his catalyst.
>Gilgamesh is summoned by Tokiomi Tohsaka in the Fourth Holy Grail War. While the relic used as the catalyst looked like the broken fragment of a mummy, it was actually claimed to be the fossil of the first skin ever shed by a snake.
How the hell did he get his hands on that exactly?
Alright so I'm trying to think what would be the most broken Grail War ever
So far I've got, Karna, Gilgamesh, and Non-Berserker Herc.
Who fill the other 4 slots?
Is this a Fuyuki Holy Grail or a Mooncell one?
Why do people circlejerk over how non-berserk Herc would be so much better? Berserker Herc is broken as fuck. Nasu agreed. The only problem was that Illya is a shitty master.
I assume for at least ONE of those wars, someone was cheeky enough to summon Gallahad but Gallahad's nature probably made it so he just took the Grail and fucked off with it himself.
Because it was stated that the best suited class for Herc was Archer?
Because it was specifically said that one of Herakles' best weapons was his mind, think of the Hydra battle and most of his labors, most of those were done with thinking not "muh brute strength"
Because stats mean nothing in Nasuverse since it's a battle of broken NPs. That's why all berserkers are shit.
Nigga do you even Type Moon?
I'd like to see Shinji and Alexander. That'd be an interesting dynamic.
maybe a nonscrewed Arc?
Assuming they're the same as Berserker's minus Mad Enhancement, Hercules' parameters aren't actually all that great.
I said interesting. Rider interacting with anyone is entertaining its just that Kerry didn't interact with his servant is why I excluded him
She can't fit into any of the classes
even with losing 1 rank per stat he is still has a great stat pool, with the majority being B and still having A strength
His NP is probably great and his tactics are supposedly exellent
Honestly, it's probably one of the only ways Shinji could ever become an decent person.
It would have the potential to even be better than Waver and Rider. Out of any of the fake pairings, Shinji with Rider would definitely be the most interesting to see.
What about Shinji and Perseus? Apparently he's a "successful" Shinji. That could be fun
Lancer can hold out for twelve hours against Gilgamesh with his worst master and two command seals working against him the entire time. With his proper master actually giving him decent prana and support he'll be able to push the king back with enough time, and all he has to do is force him to use Ea once.
The second Gilgamesh even pulls it out his heart will be gone due to Frag.
Wow, Berserker Herc really has the best stats of all the servants, huh?
If anything that would encourage Shinji's current behavior which isn't a good thing.
Did Gil use the chains on him at all?
Well, yeah, he's definitely a solid hero. I'm just saying he's not super broke like Gil. Also are those Extra stats for the playable Servants canon? That's interesting if it is.
Lancer's specialty is surviving and defense he's a beautiful servant all around truly the capacity to become the broest of bros
Well the texts were only found in 1853. That eliminates some of the earlier wars.
Has a NP to make people draconian beings, another NP that deals massive damage to draconian beings, gets a boost when acting as a guardian, and his warhorse makes him impervious to harm and able to completely nullify a lethal attack once.
Besides Mooncancer? pretty much, Lancelot has some nice stats as well.
You get to place Nero, Archer, Tamano, Gilgamesh and CCC lancer for a period of time
Shinji doesn't need another Shinji, he needs someone to tell him he is retarded but also someone who could potentially care about him. There aren't many Servants that would work.
Nah, Nasu directly stated that Lancer with Runes is one of the servants that can kill Berserker entirely, although it's an uphill as shit battle.
The only ones who can't kill Berserker are Caster, Assassin, and True Assasin as directly listed. He mentioned that Caster is limited to being able to kill him three times however, but that's her limit.
Everyone else can kill him entirely under truly optimal conditions, no matter how uphill those conditions might be.
This nigger sounds like he belongs in a fucking yugioh card
Why does Saiba have some higher stats than with Rin?
Yes, official stats are in the data book
Hercules with his Hydra Bow is as broke as Gil.
Hydra-tipped bows with venom that burns through immortality and was the cause for Hercules's death in the first place combined with 9 Lives make it as deadly as GoB spam.
Yeah that's weird come to think, having more def and agi with Kerry than Rin seems weird
Rin is a more capable master, and can pull out more of the servants power so that they can reach closer to the power they once had in life.
When you summon a servant you're only summoning a fraction of them in a mold called a "class". The better the master the closer you can get to the way they were when alive.
I like how F/E CCC MC is a better master at providing stats than Rin is.
Because The stats of a servant are based on who the master is + their own stats + the base stats of the class itself.
as to why the stats are different between Kerry and Rin? who knows
Also certain masters are able to bring out certain qualities more in the servant, like Shirou's Saber has decent luck compared to Kerry Saber.
Is it it true that F/E is a shitty game?
>Stars for all stats
That big titty bitch.
The combat is shit excluding the servant fights. other than that it's pretty good.
Nah, it's just really "Love it or hate it"
Either side you end up on people are very vocal about hating the shit out of it, or loving the shit out of it.
I dunno. I'm just surprised that Nero was so DYEL.
She only qualifies for Saber because her NP allows her to.
Yes its ass. But story is pretty good and it introduces some good new characters.
It has shitty gameplay. It's pretty much glorified rock paper scissors.
The story is decent though.
Some servants rely on stats, some rely on skills, and some rely on their NP
She's someone who relies more on her skills in this case I'd say. Imperial Prerogative is a pretty broken ass ability for example.
The combat and grinding is the major problem with the game. The story and the characters on the other hand are good, even better in CCC
Why is avenger flicking someone off?
He's an edgy fuck.
>I like how F/E CCC MC is a better master at providing stats than Rin is.
I think its for Archer isn't gimped in CCC since you can't just pump it all into strength anymore
Just take a look at his face. Does that look like the face of someone who gives a fuck?
Hitler is best Caster.
Nah, those are his new official stats, but they don't actually reflect anything in game. In game he's still likely to be all A+ territory or so by Lv99. You might just say that he gets a slight stat boost in Extra for being the accumulation of all forgotten heroes.
Showing St.Elmo had to really handle fire
stats at lvl 99 are all A or A+ regardless of who you choose IIRC
I need this translated so hard. I played the shit out of normal Extra
Enkidu (Lancer), Gilgamesh( Archer, from previous war ), Li Shuwen (Assassin), Hercules (Archer), Karna (Launcher), Lancelot (Berserker), Cu Cuchulain (Caster)
You can't have 2 of the same servant class anon. Gilgamesh would have to be summoned classless.
In drama CD Nero manage to steal one of Rider gun that stored in one of her fleet, then use it to kill Rider when Shinji use command seal.
Have it in a Extra universe so Berserker and Cu aren't gimped. Make Basaka a Saiba and keep Cu a lancer
Also missing a Saber.
Actually, could Emiya theoretically be a Saber? I mean, he definitely uses swords.
He's the same class because he was from the previous war as a left over, just like he was during FSN, but I notice I am missing Rider and Saber there.
Lets just throw in Budda as Saver instead of Saber because "okay", and.. Rider will require a bit of thought.
hes a maker not a user. Plus his combat style isn't hack and slash
What about Kanshou and Bakuya though?
This is a Mooncell war right? this combo doesn't work for Fuyuki at all
If it was Mooncell then why do we even need one of each class, we can just have half of them as Saber.
Jeanne as Saber. One double suicide NP and an invincibility NP.
Saver replaces Saber
Gilgamesh Replaces berserker
Savor : Budda
Assassin: Li Shuwen
You can't use anything but the faceless assassin's for Fuyuki anon.
EMIYA base stats is kind of meh to qualify for Saber, well for a typical HGW. He kinda lacks his own legendary sword to boot and being made out of swords doesn't qualify as well, they are bootlegs.
Kanshou and Bakuya can be said to be Archer's because they had no real owner and user when they were created in ancient China so Triple Crane Strike is an original technique Archer developed for Kanshou and Bakuya
In Fate/Extra does Archer ever say anything about Rin? I realize it isn't the same Rin but I know he says something about Shinji, so I figured he would probably say something about Rin too.
Literally every rule in the contest has been broken at this point aside from "You can't summon divines" and that's because you literally can't since they're not in the Throne. For anyone with some idea how the rules work it's not hard to break pretty much any of them.
"You can only use Hassan" is only how it was intended to go, but we know the rules don't mean crap here. All you really have to do is prepare a better catalyst than the name Hassan when summoning Assassin most likely. This is the same contest where the Einzebern's created a new class to attempt to summon the devil, and half the contestants in the fifth war weren't things that were supposed to even be summonable to begin with. Emiya, Sasaki, Medea, and Medusa; none of them should be summonable by the rules nor should it be possible to summon them. Grail was fucked up though so it all went out the window.
It is in FeMC route, not sure about MC.
Quite a bit
He does but doesn't name her directly, you should see the convo when you fight them as a extra boss in CCC
There's a ton of small references here and there
What would you guys say is the best Servant/MC pairing to go with in Fate/Extra? Not from gameplay wise (gameplay is boring as shit no matter what) but in terms of dynamic.
Thinking of retrying it. Went with MC/Nero originally and ended up quitting. Mostly because of the gameplay, but Nero wasn't anything special either.
There are rules that are followed every war past the second anon. Assassin's rule was set in place in the first war. Avenger was summoned at the cost of there being no Berserker in the 3rd war. the grail being corrupted does not effect these most of the rules, it just allows for a wider pool of people to be summoned for 6 of the classes. Sasaki isn't a real assassin anon.
I found MC/Caster the most enjoyable honestly.
MC/Archer and FeMC/Caster.
F/E? Caster/Male MC
F/E CCC? Gilgamesh/Male MC
he doesn't even have the originals his are quite inferior to them
The Fate/Extra protagonists are the best Masters.
If you look at >>101609510 as well, it's pretty much a undeniable fact.
The originals were never projected in F/SN because Archer never had a chance to use Triple Crane Strike in the game on-screen.
I bet Archer used Triple Crane Strike on Hercules, though.
>F/Z ED 1
>There is no indication that the Archer of Fate route knew how to use UBW.
I know I'm like 200 posts too late, but holy shit, this is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
He never had an original NP to begin with. He just pirates and uses a 3D Printer that's efficient when he is printing swords.
Except for papa Kotomine :)
Because he isn't a master.
>Lancelot and Sakura would be boring as fuck
More like broken as fuck.
What's the point of such a war if the master alone can beat most of the servants.
Why are Gil and Saber above Hercules in the powerlevel's charts?
Gil can easily kill Berseker because of enkidu, but overall he's weaker.
Sorry, I can't understand even spoken Japanese.
What? Am I the only one who's going to be waiting for a translation?
Why are you even assuming Lancer would fight 12 lives Berserker? Most probably, Ilya would charge against Shirou as a moron and Berserker would get half or less of his lives between the beating Rin, Archer and Saber give him.
Because we don't know how strong Archer Herc is. Gilgamesh is much stronger than Hercules overall. do i need to post his NP in CCC?
Herakles, while insane, is completely and utterly gimped.
Everything about Herakles's legend is his immense skill and guile. He performed 12 labours and many other feats of heroism besides, but only, like, two of those were done with brute strength (the Nemean Lion and the Cretan Bull--and the Nemean Lion was brute force applied creatively, too).
Without his mind, he is nothing but an engine of pain.
On top of that he loses his best skill, Nine Lives, a technique he perfected to use with any weapon so he would always have a killing stroke.
Hypotetical 1 vs 1 fight.
Gil kills Kerry and then contracts Kirei for harem end.
but herc has better stats than gil.
Gil is favoured against him because of enkidu, but overall berserker should be better.
This is an hypothetical war. Bazett's show to be an strategist in Ataraxia. Her major weakness is her dumb crush on Kirei.
Emiya is shit.
Heroic Spirit Arturia with Avalon and Caliburn plus Excalibur. And all her fucking weapons like that spear she iced Mordred with.
Where is your God now?
Stats mean nothing to Gilgamesh. simple. the only stat that matters for him is his NP and that is always EX.
Except they do mean something to Gil.
Gil has piss poor magic resistance so he always targets casters first
People really forget Seiba is broken and jinxed as fuck because of her assed summon and her condition which makes her miss most of her Noble Phantasms.
On top performance as real Heroic Spirit, you're dealing with someone with a sheath that shrugs your damage, blocks your attack, regenerates her, two hax swords, a very useful 'weak' skill like invisible air which allows her to manipulate more than her weapons, untold noble phantasms, and her own dragon reactor in an universe where dragons are the most special critter ever.
If stats meant nothing, then Saber and Lancelot wouldn't be able to survive persistent Gate of Babylon assaults.
Stats reinforce their ability to survive his spam, and would force Gil to use Enuma Elish. I imagine he would consider Herakles worthy of it if he were sane, at least, especially since God Hand allows him to straight-up ignore 4/5ths of the Gate's armament.
Then the question is if Enuma Elish would kill him twelve times, and if Nine Lives could kill Gil before it does. We have no answers to these.
Except he wears Armor that gives his Magic resistance that is near the same level as Saber. Try again.
Try watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kiAcwtcfJ4 and tell me which servant besides Avalon Saber can survive that?
>Bazett and Lancer
>not Bazett and Avenger
Avenger's NP lets Bazett be able to use Fragarach to its full extent. As long as they force the enemy to use their trump card, they win.
It's because of the underdog suffering she gets, King Arthur would be overpowered by fame alone.
Hercules would be treated exactly the same as Karna was in CCC.
>Then the question is if Enuma Elish would kill him twelve times, and if Nine Lives could kill Gil before it does.
Now that's a good question.
If Arturia were a true heroic spirit then it just wouldn't be fair.
Excalibur, Caliburn, Clarent (uncorrupted), Rhongomyniad, Carnwennan, Pridwen (shield), Prydwen (boat), Llamrei and Hengroen (warhorses), and fucking Avalon for more Noble Phantasms than anybody should ever be allowed to have.
Enuma Elish mystery is SUPERIOR to Godhand, that's why it can kill him more than once.
It can kill gods in CCC, Heracles is a small fry. The only thing that can stop it is Avalon for special reasons.
Hail to the King. Don't forget with a proper summon, she can power up herself so even a shitty magi wouldn't have issues.
Because she's a dragon who breathes prana within her circuits.
I was more focusing on the "Nine Lives could kill Gil before it does" part.
It could kill him more than once, sure, but who says it will reach the full 12?
Remember that Herakles may as well be a god. He is the son of the greatest greek god, blessed by most of the others (bar Hera), and ascended to godhood after his death.
Of course, King Arthur is supposed to be the strongest Saber, the mightiest of Classes, but you know the story needs to nerf her somehow. Like it nerfed Gilgamesh with his own idiocy. Gilgamesh should remain class-less. Same with Enkidu.
Nah, they would lose to Touma and Accel
She will still be limited as Servant. She will get her lance only if she summoned as Lancer, mount if Rider etc
Heracles, Diarmuid and Siegfried didn't have their complete armament when they are summoned as Servant.
>Except he wears Armor that gives his Magic resistance that is near the same level as Saber.
Oh look another newfag who doesn't know what he is talking about.
Protip: Gil's armor never got described as having a high magic resistance ranking as Saber's.
Also, no high ranking magic attack was ever used on Gil to show how tough his armor is against magic attacks.
Caster never got a chance to try and Rin never attacked Gil like how she attacked Hercules.
Remember what the caliburn event did, EA at full power is a entire category of power above that.
You do realize that which of her Noble Phantasms she would have would be limited by her class, right?
His divinity isn't that high in FSN. The greek gods were lower on the god class from the hindu and the sumerian gods. CCC explains the hierarchy of gods.
Lancer has his runes. Apparently Diarmuid had his swords but didn't use them.
>EA at full power is a entire category of power above that.
Pure fanwank. Ea has nearly the same firepower as Excalibur.
Berserker cu. he would be a god damn monster.
I doubt she'll get the whole package.
The limitation will be the point in her life she'll be summoned though.
If she got summoned as Lancer or Saber after Avalon was lost, well you'll just get vanilla Seiba at best.
Heracles couldn't use anything because he was berserker. Diarmuid apparently had his swords? No idea about Siegfried.
It was stated that it has "a strong innate Magic Resistance" property anon.
What if she was summoned into her own complete form like Gil in CCC?
In CCC, they are different. But the arena of Moon Cell isn't like Fuyuki, it has no limitations.
You clearly haven't played CCC nor F/HA
Siegfried didn't have his invisibility cloak and other equipment.
Though maybe his Nasuverse version doesn't have that who knows.
I like you how you post your head canon that it has the same rank as Saber's magic resistance though.
>Avalon was lost
Uh losing one's weapons don't matter...
Or none of the Heroic Spirits, bar Gil, would have Noble Phantasms. The reason why Saber doesn't have Avalon is because she's ALIVE and summoned on her condition on that hill.
She's a fake Heroic Spirit. If she were an Heroic Spirit, she'll have her full arsenal.
Ea within a reality marble is more powerful than excalibur.
Ea in the real world is as strong as excalibur because of limitations.
I like how you are dodging.
>His divinity isn't that high in FSN
It's A rank, described as the highest feasible human spirit without being inordinately divine (approaching Divine Spirit levels). Gil only has one rank higher if he embraced his divine heritage.
>The greek gods were lower on the god class from the hindu and the sumerian gods. CCC explains the hierarchy of gods.
I'm calling shenanigans. Zeus claims to tower over all the other gods combined in the greek pantheon anyway.
Zero Model Arturia would probably have dragon traits.
Awww the Gilfag got caught posting his head canon and now has no rebutall.
Keep posting though. The thread is already laughing at you.
No, Ea is more powerful than Excalibur. But the different in Fuyuki Grail doesn't pump up realism while Moon Cell records are perfect blue prints and not just a flawed, weak human made Grail.
It's an universe recreated inside of it. Ea is vastly more powerful than Excalibur. Avalon has always been Arturia's greatest Phantasm.
Your own head canon got proven wrong as well. your both just embarrassing yourselves.
Same way that the einzberns got Avalon or whatever excalibur's sheathe was.
Enuma Elish never deals much more damage than Excalibur. It just destroys the world around it: this deals no extra damage.
The output of Enuma Elish at full blast is only slightly greater than Excalibur. Nasu confirmed.
> But the different in Fuyuki Grail doesn't pump up realism while Moon Cell records are perfect blue prints and not just a flawed, weak human made Grail.
Now that's just idiotic because the Fuyuki Grail doesn't generate the Servant's data, it downloads the data from the timeless and infinite Throne of Heroes via the third sorcery. Calling it flawed would mean the Throne of Heroes is flawed.
The gods, according to Nasu, are separated into two categories: those that existed from the beginning and those that became reborn as gods.
The ones from the Mesopotamia and India are the former category while the rest are the later. Amaterasu is apparently the primordial sun god too over all others.
God I wish we got to see more Bazett, she really hits all of my fetishes, and Lancer is the best servant across all Fate too so that just sweetens it.
Her, Rin and Ilya are really the only people who'd stand a chance in the 5th war as other people have mentioned. Realistically though, we all know that Rin would win on the merit of being a high school girl with attitude.
Enuma Elish can be use either as a reality marble destruction, or like a beam.
It could be, but gil can unleash its real power in the real world. That's a fact, because counter guardians would intervene.
Which creates a flawed copy, even Nasu said that the Gilgamesh of CCC is the original Gilgamesh without limits. Unlike the one of Fuyuki.
The data of the Throne of Heroes passes through a tainted Grail. Look at fucking "Kojiro."
If you are talking about when it is used as a beam weapon you are correct. else No.
>It could be, but gil can unleash its real power in the real world. That's a fact, because counter guardians would intervene.
He could in his battle with Enkidu. Because Counter Guardians could kiss his kingly ass when he ruled the world and created a paradise.
The ritual summoning is imperfect. not the throne itself.
Gilgamesh was meant to be part of Gaia's counter force. But he said no thanks. Counter guardians have no authority over him.
That's because it locks him into Archer rather than pure form, it doesn't affect his Noble Phantasm but his personality.
>The data of the Throne of Heroes passes through a tainted Grail. Look at fucking "Kojiro."
Fake Assassin was an actual person in Type-Moon, he was just a nameless hobo who practised with a sword a lot. He calls himself Kojirou to avoid having that long-ass discussion with every single servant.
He wasn't even really summoned from the Grail at all, because a spirit cannot call up a spirit. He was plucked from the surrounding countryside, which is where he lived and died.
Zero material only state he would get his sword if he is summoned as Saber.
Which makes him weaker and yes, it affects the performance of his Noble Phantasm because he has less power output.
Your head canon isn't fact, dipshits.
He's the one who is right.
You're the one fanwanking Ea's firepower to be something else entirely.
This doesn't mean gaia would use them to beat his ass if he attempt to harm Earth, and that's why he only used ea as a beam attack in the real world. He only used it as an anti-world np when he's within reality marble.
The Grail doesn't affect noble phantasms, you stupid fuck.
What is with Gilfags and their head canon?
If you're going to say that, then Excalibur must be suppressed too and would have similarly improved outputs if Arturia was summoned into her true state.
He used it in Fuyuki and CCC and he used it in his battle against Enkidu.
Enkidu countered EVERYTHING Gil had, because Enkidu COULD turn into that weapon. They cancelled each other and were left exhausted.
Arturia is in her truer state. She's alive. After Shirou jumpstarts her dragon reactor she can use Excalibur at fullest with his ministrations in Realta Nua.
>and that's why he only used ea as a beam attack in the real world
>He only used it as an anti-world np when he's within reality marble.
Thanks for just providing proof you are one of the newfags who think Ea's antiworld status means it could one-shot the world when it only means reality marbles.
Sorry but the only anti-planet NP Nasu said was introduced for the first time in Fate belongs to Kiara.
Ea is not a planet buster like you think it is, Giltard.
Why don't people just summon Enkidu? He's far more friendly and just as hax as Gil.
No, she is completely locked into the same limitations as every other Servant.
She might be alive, but it doesn't enhance her beyond what she should be capable of as a servant in the grail war.
Elsewise her stats wouldn't go up or down depending on her Master.
Getting the right catalyst is difficult.
Use Trap+clay+wolf cub+hooker as catalyst.
Why do people in this thread talk like they know what Gilgamesh's abilities and powers are without playing CCC and F/HA? you guys are making the rest of the people that like Gilgamesh look stupid.
I wonder about his skills, other than Body Modification EX, Strength EX. Animal language? If we go by Strange Fake, he can talk to the world, so he's got a real deep connection to Gaia. He might have lots of retarded blessings.
Could Enkidu turn into Ea?
He had to become something equaling it, at least. Gil spent his entire armory and Enkidu matched it completely.
Enkidu can turn in anything. He's, by his mouth, the greatest weapon ever existed which made him feel the blues because he wasn't a real boy. Gilgamesh, ironically, who objectifies everyone else, refused to see Enkidu as anything but a person.
But nothing can rival Ea short of Avalon (which doesn't exist yet). It's the sword that existed before the primordial age, the sword of creation that originally split the heaven and earth.
But Ea is explicitly the Sword of the King that can only be used by Gilgamesh. Even if someone got their hands on it, they wouldn't be able to use it. It's a weapon that Gilgamesh alone has the right to wield.
Enkidu could. He's a living weapon without peer himself, created by the greatest gods to bring humility to Gilgamesh.
Did anyone say Enkidu was wielding Ea? No, he became parallel to it.
Aren't Lancer and Bazett just the hottest Master-Servant pair of the bunch?
Waver's going to get WRECKED.
Enkidu was explicitly created to humble Gilgamesh as his equal. The backstory drilled you this nobody can be as great and important as Enkidu because he's the only equal Gilgamesh had.
ENKIDU was a weapon of the gods. In short, he was like the Moon Cell AIs.
Enkidu doesn't own weapons.
He is the weapon, anon. Peerless sentient weapon to end all weapons.
Question: during the reunion event were Caliburn was used, was it stronger than Excalibur at the time or not? or do we just not know?
Saber and Kotomine would have the shittiest compatibility.
Ryuunosuke wouldn't be able to use Assassin effectively at all. Also, the point of an assassin is to kill their target swiftly and efficiently. It's like Shiki said: enjoying the act of killing is an unnecessary extra that lowers the efficiency of the act.
Kariya would also lack the ability to use Caster efficiently.
They are. They are also my F/HA OTP. I loved the true ending of HA because of it.
>hottest Master-Servant pair
If you summoned Enkidu, would you ask him to be female or male?
I was under the impression that Ea preceded the gods, though. Was that impression incorrect?
You'll might end up with loliripper, who might rip you apart upon summoning, then she proceeds on killing the trap and the hooker, unless said hooker wants a child she can take care.
He can turn into anything, so I could tell him to turn into my waifu.
>Rider occasionally finds men to bang in Fuyuki to sate her physical lust because Sakura would annihilate her if she tried physically for real in her domain
>Sakura is a black hole
He said hottest, not sluttiest.
Nice boobs. But posting that is kind of dangerous, you know?
It preceded the weaker gods, not the original gods. Gilgamesh was a creation of the original gods.
is dis gil srs?
Except moon cell isn't exactly the earth and fake strange is not canon.
So when did he use it?
>Ea is not a planet buster like you think it is
When did I say it's a planet buster?
Ea could at most destroy all fuyuki city.
Rider would fuck anyone. Did you honestly think she'll settle to be a waifu? Medusa isn't Medea. She's all over Waver in a cd drama.
>and fake strange is not canon.
I'm talking about his battle against Enkidu in CCC backstory. They didn't fight in Strange fake.
Its output is only equal to or slightly higher than Excalibur's, at least according to Complete Material.
The thing that makes it dangerous isn't the output, but the "Anti-World" attribute.
Is it true counter force was first mentioned in kara no kyoukai?
That CD drama was hot. Trying to fuck Weibah-kun twice with that sensual voice...
Ea is a city-buster then.
>She's all over Waver in a cd drama.
Is this young Waver or Lord El-Melloi II?
CCC Material and CCC josses Complete Material, anon. Nasu's now sucking Gil's dick very much. He even made him incapable of being wrong except when he acts like an idiot.
Just bring along Ayako. At least you'll witness some lesbian action and keep Rider from fucking other men.
Not even the whole city.
Its output is only equal to or slightly higher than Excalibur's, at least according to Complete Material.
The thing that makes it dangerous isn't the output, but the "Anti-World" attribute.
The elder version.
Lord El-Melloi II. He thinks he's a strange woman, but gets a bit nostalgic because Waver's Ridersexual when she accidentally quotes Iskandar.
>The thing that makes it dangerous isn't the output, but the "Anti-World" attribut
>Rider wanted to fuck this dude
She probably sensed his Conqueror Dick
It's hard to say.
Before CCC, every time Ea received a boost, Excalibur also received one.
In Fate/stay night, an Excalibur doesn't seem all that impressive, but in Fate/hollow ataraxia, the blast is fucking huge. The same was true for Ea.
Thus, if Ea received a boost in Fate/EXTRA CCC, then it's possible that Excalibur might have received a similar boost. Excalibur was always supposed to be "equal to or slightly weaker than Ea", so Ea's power will always be directly linked to Excalibur's.
Disappointing, but to be expected.
>wanting to stop rider from fucking other men
>stopping rider from doing what she does best
This is true, but as things stands now
Gil dick sucking train > Saber's. And I like Saber more, but I acknowledge that Nasu wanted to overpower Gil so he'll be super special for a non full god with his buttbuddy.
It would only be A++, equal to Excalibur, if it didn't destroy the world to make it EX.
It doesn't actually make it more "dangerous", but it moves it outside the usual scale.
So back on topic before the shitstorm started, Would Excalibur and EA (in it's latest rendition) one shot Hercules or not?
The Anti-World attribute seems to have a bunch of different little effects. It can reveal the "Truth" of the world, the state of the world in primordial times when heaven and earth was split for the first time. It can completely shatter any Reality Marble.
General gist of it is that Anti-World is super effective against everything. Even if Excalibur is nearly equal in output, it will always lose completely and utterly in a direct confrontation without even being able to put of the slightest fight because of that attribute. Matching it in power alone is completely worthless.
Wasn't it stated somewhere Excalibur at full power can kill Heracles?
Caliburn can kill 6. Since Excalibur is stronger, that isn't really a stretch.
According to Ilya, Excalibur could in a Bad End where Saber tries to but she is too prana deprived.
>not wanting Rider to fuck Ayako
>Matching it in power alone is completely worthless.
Except Saber gets blown away when she tries to go against Ea with Excalibur. All. the.times. Only having Avalon helped her survive.
A full power Excalibur could always one-shot Heracles. This was never an issue. Ilya says as much in one of the Tiger Dojos.
If Saber were at full strength and could use Excalibur at her leisure, Berserker would have been history. Of course, it stands to reason that anything Excalibur can do, Ea can do better. About the only thing Ea's inferior in is being a sword. DRILLS AREN'T FUCKING SWORDS.
Now re-write one of the wars (4th or 5th) with Enkidu summoned in place of a Servant by Plot Magic.
Any class, because he can be any weapon.
>Except Saber gets blown away when she tries to go against Ea with Excalibur
Except it offsets the blast enough to let her survive instead of just killing her. It has to have some effect.
Who doesn't want to fuck Waver? He takes after the best.
>not having rider and ayako get fucked by a bunch of other men
shinji already tapped them both asses
Like I said, matching Ea in power is worthless. The Anti-World attribute of Ea will always allow Enuma Elish to plow through an Excaliblast like it's nothing. The only reason Saber keeps surviving is because Excalibur just barely slightly manages to divert some of Ea's power, but not as much as it should. Anti-World hax is just way too strong.
So then then following the logic that EA is stronger than Excalibur it should also kill Hercules in one attack, due to it being stronger than Excalibur?
So back to the original question, Archer Hercules using the Hydra bow verses Gilgamesh using EA, What should be the result?
If Heracles play smart (i.e being sniper), he could win.
If he fight head on, he will just get Enkidu'd and swordrain'd
Saber gets destroyed in that scene
I agree. He'll also fall against Enkidu. Enkidu and Gilgamesh if serious are mean to the the top tiers non Divine Spirits Servants.
Depends on if Gilgamesh has a shield capable of stopping "nine homing dragon lasers" that are also tinged with immortal-slaying poison.
In other words: it depends on how wanky Nasu is feeling at the time.
But in the end it's a beam attack like excalibur or what?
Because it wasn't in zero.
There is nothing in Heracles' arsenal that can match Ea in direct firepower. Shooting Hundred Heads just wouldn't compare.
Gil wasn't trying to kill her, though. Unlike Saber who was serious. He can control the output.
But she's not dead.
Shirou gets deader than her.
If unguarded Enuma Elish would kill Herakles, it would obliterate Saber. So Excalibur has to significantly diminish it when they collide.
IIRC he was only using a 1/3 of it's total power or something along those lines?
He was trying to test the power of Excalibur straight out, which means she had to use Excalibur to not die. He can't control it to some ridiculously fine degree where he knows exactly how much HP damage he'll do.
Enuma Elish isn't a beam. It's closer to wind that's been hyper-compressed to insane levels. It's a torrent of raw power that can tear apart anything in its path.
He only tries to kill her when she Avaloned her way to Victory in Fate route end (and she got fairly beaten WITH Avalon regenerating her wounds).
Before then, he was just playing with her while Saber was serious as fuck.
More like a wave, really. Surges outward, tearing things apart as it goes.
According to Nasu, Gil can control the input...So you're wrong.
But in zero it was different from >>101619196
Rider's rb just got torn apart.
Please, instead of just saying "according to Nasu", go get the quote that says where he can control each and every iota of power he puts into it.
Excalibur also isn't a beam. It's a slash of prana converted to light. It looks like it does because it travels at the speed of light and so the aftereffect looks like it's part of the attack.
Ea's max output is only equal to or slightly higher than Excalibur's. Going easy on Saber is pointless, at least as far as a direct beamspam confrontation goes. Anti-World attribute is the main reason he wins every time.
And seiba can control the output of Excalibur depending on how much time she charges it. Your point?
Go read http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Ea
Under the Enuma Elish section and come back, it might make a bit more sense to you then.
That was the Anti-World attribute at work. Using a Reality Marble against Gilgamesh is pointless.
Only reason Gil lost to Shirou was because the Sword of the King is not something that should be used on mongrels.
He can control it, so you're wrong. If he wasn't trying to kill her until the end is because he wasn't using it seriously beforehand.
So she gets blown the fuck out and nearly killed, endangering her master's life because she refused to use her power?
>Only reason Gil lost to Shirou was because the Sword of the King is not something that should be used on mongrels.
Except he did use it. Twice. The first time Rho Aius blocked it enough for Shirou to survive and the second Shirou cut off his arm while he tried to charge it.
He was testing Excalibur in that scene. If she didn't use Excalibur to defend herself, she would have died.
In fact, his dialogue implies he overestimated Excalibur and didn't even intend to hurt her as much as he did.
From what i can remember, Piror to Saber using Avalon he was just fucking around with it. and used it at full power when Saber used Avalon only for it to be blocked(?) when she used Avalon, or something along those lines.
So could Enkidu turn into Avalon-like sheath and fuse with Gil?
More like because Gilgamesh didn't give her the time to do so.
The first time didn't count. It was a whim. The King doesn't have to explain his reasoning to lowly mongrels.
The second time also didn't count. Because it didn't. Mongrels.
Which means he wasn't using lethal force.
How exactly did Archer's Rho Aius block EA to begin with? and Why did Gilgamesh put EA away after already using it on Shirou? was he just showing off?
Again, Ea's output is only "equal to or slightly higher than Excalibur's".
There is no point whatsoever in holding back.
First time Nasu described it as weak air blast or something?
Yes, and? The point is that Excalibur can and does offset Enuma Elish's attack at least to some degree.
Rho Aias has the defensive capacity of seven fortress walls in addition to its conceptual weapon against thrown projectiles. It can soak a decent amount of damage.
It offset Ea's power just barely enough to allow Shirou to survive.
Presumably, that's one time Gilgamesh DID go easy one someone with Ea.
>There are several levels of power he displays depending on how serious he is at the time. The level he utilizes against Saber in Fate/stay night is held back for most of the time, and it is blocked the one time he decides to go all out with it. It appears as a reddish torrent around the same magnitude of Excalibur, allowing it to clash with it. It still easily surpasses the Holy Sword, and Saber is only able to push it back for a brief moment, creating a boundary in space, even if she puts everything into the strike and stakes her life on blocking it. She comes out of the attack extremely injured and unable to act for a period of time until she heals.
>How exactly did Archer's Rho Aius block EA to begin with?
It didn't, it blocked it just enough for Shirou's ridiculously durable body to survive it. It's like how he survived an attack from Merodach even though according to GiIl what he was hit with should have atomized him.
Type-Moon wiki is not a quote from Nasu, it is fanwank.
How exactly did Archer's Rho Aius block EA to begin with?
Gil did not invoke Ea name so it was weak version.
>Then show me. Show me what you can save with your imitations!"
>A storm of chaos. The wind emitted from his sword even blows away his own Noble Phantasms as it comes at me.
Stop looking at the fucking Wiki.
>The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called “Enuma Elish”, and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur.
I read it, but I still don't see why it was different inside rider's rm.
It's an anti world so it destroyed the reality marble, but then why was rider untouched by it?
What's the point of using such a weapon when you don't intend to destroy a reality marble?
Saber's avalon works on the principle that she's isolating herself from our plane of existence to avalon itself wasn't it?
Thus her blocking of EA is more on par to it missing her because she's not technically there when avalon activates.
How often do you think arturia could activate spam it? Would it cost much prana?
Cause he didn't fire it at Alexander. He could have, but it would have been rude.
Ea isn't the sword's name.
"Enuma Elish" is merely the name of the attack.
Both names were given to it by Gilgamesh. Neither the sword nor the attack have true names.
Gilgamesh doesn't have to actually say anything when he uses it.
It doesn't seem to, considering she uses it after using Excalibur twice and getting beat up by who knows how many Gate of Babylon projectiles.
And immediately uses another Excalibur, and then another one a little while after.
Don't question the whims of the King, mongrel.
Yes. Arturia can't attack while Avalon is activated, Nasu, I believe, revealed that if Gilgamesh knew about Avalon, he would have defeated Arturia. She and Shirou relied on the clever surprise element to kill Gilgamesh.
The ONLY one (who isn't a divine spirit of higher) who can match Gilgamesh on a fair, no bullshit, no tricks, might against might battle is Enkidu.
So he can use enuma elish as a beam of wind and light or as a tool to destroy a reality marble without aiming at a single point or firing an attack.
She had Avalon inside of her, passive regeneration effect.
>Nasu, I believe, revealed that if Gilgamesh knew about Avalon, he would have defeated Arturia
Never at any point.
The closest he said was Zelretch, who could outmaneuver her to such an insane degree that she would be trapped in Avalon and unable to return to the material world.
Avalon has a major weakness.
Saber can't attack while being protected by it. It can provide her with perfect defense, but it's also a card that's only effective once. If the enemy knows what it is and how it works, then they can prepare for it. That's why Saber had to time it properly. She waited until the last minute to use it and then deactivated it the moment Gil showed and opening and fired off an Excaliblast immediately.
Yes, he did. He labeled Gilgamesh as the "Hero Slayer" too. Because he has something in his vault to counter all of them.
If he's not written like a retard like Nasu needs to and now regrets.
>Noble Phantasms are considered to be a Servant's trump card and are activated by channeling prana into them and releasing their true names
Why do you think Saber scream Excalibur name?
The real question is Fragarach vs Avalon. what would happen?
Get the quote if you're gonna say that.
>Because he has something in his vault to counter all of them.
Except for Enkidu.
Fragarach activates if it's considered a trumpcard which relies enterily on NASU being Nasu.
If Avalon is considered trump card, Fragarach wins.
If not, nothing happens.
"Excalibur" is the true name of the sword.
"Ea" isn't. Ea HAS no true name. The attack has no true name. Gilgamesh doesn't have to say anything when he uses it because those aren't they're actual names. He could just as easily fire off an Enuma Elish if he named the attack "Terry" or something.
Ah i see. Thought it would have been interesting to see saber use a combat style incorporating avalon in place of an actual shield.
But if the conditions are her being unable to attack using it, I guess it's really a surprise trump card.
You know, watching her fight whilst phasing in and out of avalon in-between attacks.
If she has Avalon, being blasted through the heart isn't going to be sufficient to kill her anyway. She regenerates and deals with it.
There's a reason why Avalon got stolen. She had to ditch it while she attacked after the barrier effect.
It's also a bad idea to use it now Gil gets Collector stats skills.
But if Fragarach is used Avalon never activated thus no passive healing.
If she has Avalon, Fragarach would kill Saber before she put Avalon on. By using Avalon itself, passive (like Godhand) Fragarach travels back on time and kills the user before they get it.
Only advantage Godhand has is that Herakles was summoned with the skin.
Isn't EA have different name for NP version and skill version in CCC?
>"Now awake, Ea. A stage befitting you has been prepared!"
>Ea - the God of earth and water from ancient Mesopotamian mythology who had separated Heaven and Earth.
>Called by this name, the Sword of Rupture was the primordial sword present at the creation of the world in the Age of Gods. The role the blade of the beginning accomplished - it was nothing short of that which had cut apart what had been shapeless into Heaven and Earth, what had given a definitive shape to that distinction.
>And now, the rotating God sword, haughtily blowing up storm winds, would once again perform that miracle of genesis. The golden King of Heroes triumphantly shouted a declaration.
>"Come now and look up - Enuma Elish!"
>Heaven screamed, and Earth shook. An enormous collection of prana was released, grinding at the laws of space. The sword tip Archer swung down was not aimed at anyone in the first place. It was no longer a matter of aiming at anyone. What the Sword of Rupture's blade cuts down cannot be contained to simply 'the enemy'.
"Enuma Elish" is how he unleashing Ea full power
Avalon ALWAYS has passive healing. Just holding it is enough. It doesn't need to be activated.
In the first place, Irisviel and Kiritsugu would have no idea how to activate Avalon. Shirou only figures it out because it's been inside him for ten years and he's contracted to Arturia, and even then he only gets to do it once.
That is not quite how far back Fragarach reaches. It goes back to before the trump card was played. Holding Avalon is not playing your trump card.
Enkidu peering Gil nowadays isn't a given, either. It's likely he hadn't 'completed' his vault at that point, since he ran out of NPs to throw.
You're misunderstanding how Fragarach works. If Avalon is always activated in a passive sense and Avalon is a trumpcard (in Nasu's very shaky and dumb standards which are contradictory), Saber would have died before she put the sheath on.
The mystery of the weapon is strike before the trumpcard was used.
No, it IS how far it reaches. The concept is that. Period. Even Avenger tells the readers in Ataraxia only Gae Bolg can counter it.
The passive isn't the trump card effect, though. The activation is.
The passive healing isn't activated in any way, it is merely a facet of Avalon's existence.
Herakles presence activated it.
And he wasn't healing. The presence of passive Godhand activated it because it was recognized as trumpcard. Your move.
It depends, actually.
There are two absolutes in Nasu's world:
First, the older the mystery is, the more powerful it will be. Older mystery will almost always trump the younger mystery. Part of the reason Gilgamesh is so powerful is because he's humanity's Oldest King of Heroes.
The second constant is that the superior concept will always trump the inferior concept. This is something that doesn't actually come into play all that often in Fate, but it's a huge point in both Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai.
The way Fragarach works is like this: . The user can only use it after the opponent uses their trump card; otherwise, it's nothing but a normal C-rank Noble Phantasm. But when it's used against a trump card, it becomes the "Answerer". How this works is actually simple: When Fragarach is used in response to the enemy's trump card, the "Answerer" effect will essentially cause a time warp and make it so that Fragarach was actually used before the enemy used their trump card. It's similar in concept to Gae Bolg's causality reversal mechanics; in the case of Gae Bolg, cause and effect are reversed, meaning that the result of "Gae Bolg hitting the target's heart" comes before "the spear being thrust at the target's heart". The action of the spear hitting the target's heart is a secondary effect created to resolve the paradox of the heart being pierced. This is also the reason why Fragarach's "Answerer" doesn't work properly against Gae Bolg; even though Fragarach is supposed to strike the opponent before they release their trump card, Gae Bolg's effect of "the heart already being pierced" means that no matter what happens, the enemy will get hit. That's why a confrontation between Gae Bolg and Fragarach will always result in mutual destruction. Their concepts are equal.
That means it can be used against Arturia at any time, it doesn't mean it would kill her.
However, Avalon is the "ultimate defense" that ignores things like time and space and grants absolute protection to the user. If Avalon's concept of an "absolute defense" can trump Fragarch's "hit before the opponent uses their trump card" concept, then it should be able to shield Saber from it. However, if Fragarach's "Answerer" is the superior concept, then it wins.
Since Excalibur is an EX-ranked Noble Phantasm, however, I imagine that it may be able to protect Saber even from Fragarach.
God Hand is a purely passive ability. Avalon is an activated ability with a passive effect. Different type of trump card, different execution of Fragarach.
So the answer is how Nasu is feeling at the time then?
Excalibur is A++
Avalon might fulfill both the "older mystery" and "superior concept" qualifications. If it does that Fragarach might not be able to do anything to it.
Which is why I said "If Avalon, were recognized as trumpcard..." This would happen. I didn't say If CERTAIN use of Avalon, but Avalon itself.
It's a typo. The post is clearly talking about Avalon.
If Avalon, in general, is considered a trumpcard, yes it would kill Saber. Because even if she has it, it'll activated the Answered to rewrite the events where she'll die before she wears it.
Answerer reacts only to the strongest ability. Avalon's activated form is far, far stronger than its ludicrous regeneration.
Same as Excalibur which it lol'ed. Battles rely on who Nasu gives the right.
I feel Saber/Bazett team would be an ideal Master/Servant team. Imagine them wearing suits together and being idiotically knightly. Bazett wearing Avalon and providing Saber enough prana.
Incidentally, among King Arthur's Noble Phantasm, Excalibur was the only one granted the title of "Last Phantasm" and is considered to be his most powerful weapon.
Avalon may not be considered a trump card at all.
No, it reacts to blurry "trumpcard." For instance, doesn't consider UBW a trumpcard, iirc. So is what Nasu feels at the time.
Excalibur has older mystery but lacks superior concept.
"Concepts" are important in Nasuverse. Both Fragarach and Gae Bolg are conceptual weapons, but Excalibur is not.
EX is indeed not truly "stronger" than A rank or any other rank besides.
EX is a value given when the mystery has broken the scale and the scale wants to go home and cry.
The off-hand line about EX being the highest rank in Fate/Zero will be blamed on Urobuchi.
The discussion is working off the basis that is considered a trump card. if it is or not is known
>instead of falling for Cu Chulainn, Bazett falls for King Arthur
>wants to give him a happy ending
Welp, this is a bad thing.
Excalibur is too. Its concept is that it can "cut through anything".
It'll lead to teaming up with Shirou and his Servant EMIYA and Archer/Bazett, Shirou/Saber.
>. Its concept is that it can "cut through anything".
That's like saying this pair of scissors I'm holding can cut any piece of normal notebook paper. It can, but it's not a conceptual effect.
You don't seem to be very familiar with how Nasuvere "Concepts" work.
Fate route. Mentioned during the final Berserker fight, or thereabouts.
He also mentions that Caliburn is unbreakable.
>He also mentions that Caliburn is unbreakable.
Except Caliburn was broken.
How is "cut through anything" any different than "always strike the heart"?
Both are concepts.
It broke itself after she used it for non-chivalrous purposes or something like that. It's normally unbreakable.
Because Gae Bolg's effect literally embodies that concept.
Gae Bolg literally reverses causality to achieve the effect of striking the heart. When Gae Bolg's effect is activated, the heart has already been pierced. The act of the spear moving to physically strike the heart is merely an after-effect to resolve that paradox.
Not all conceptual weapons have to reverse causality like that though.
Anything Shirou projects, for example, is a conceptual weapon.
i hope you realize what you just said right?
Holy fuck no. Do you even Type-Moon?
I hope i am reading this right
It is unbreakable normally but it can break under this circumstance.
Wouldn't that mean by definition it is breakable?
Conceptual weapons come in two flavors in Nasuverse:
One is the type that superimposes a concept that doesn't exist on something. The Church employs conceptual weapons that literally tack on the concept of a "natural limited lifespan" to "immortality", which is how they get past a vampire's Curse of Regeneration.
The second flavor consists of weapons that literally embody some sort of concept. Gae Bolg's "always hit the heart" characteristic puts it in that category.
On the other hand, stuff like Kanshou and Bakuya don't have such effects. The only unique thing about them is that they're attracted to each other like magnets due to the metals they are comprised of. They are not conceptual armaments.
K&B also have a monster killing attribute to them as well iirc?
That would only be if some hero took them in hand and learned to wield them as his own weapon. Nobody's done that and Archer is fundamentally incapable of doing that.
That was a joke by Nasu.
I wonder if they were ever wielded "properly" by somebody
And you are going to provide a source from him stating it was a joke right?
Nah, they're ownerless and only made for the purpose of being fine swords. Which is why Shirou has an affinity for them, as he's more like a blacksmith than a swordfighter.
Why would he put a joke in a published article released to the public without explicitly stating it is a joke?
Wasn't meant to quote >>101620748 in >>101620753 comment
>Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?
>A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike.
When Nasu starts saying silly stuff like "Gorgon Lv100", it means he's not being serious. About half the answers he gives to these Q&As tend to be in jest.
That's a thing he does all the time. Takeuchi actually thought he was serious about that "Curry du Marche" thing for a while before Nasu revealed that it was a joke.
Not they anon you are talking to, but which am i meant to believe here? i can't read that quote as a joke honestly.
It's not a "purely fictitious statement" but something he just said for filler and laughs. It's not serious, but it may as well be true. It is, however, completely irrelevant.
They already cover it
>They will be legitimate Noble Phantasms.(立派な宝具です。) <- serious here
>They will be powerful strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms.(対怪異専用の強力な宝具として活躍したでしょう。) <- still serious
>Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike. (ライダーの最終神話形態ゴルゴーンLV1 00も、ジルが召喚した異界の邪神も真っ向からズンバラリン。) <- example
>ズンバラリン (zunbararin) is a silly sort of sound effect from the old Ninja Hattori-kun series, hence the deduction that Nasu's joking
Legitimate anti-monster Noble Phantasms is true. One shot Gorgon is not
You can tell if he's joking depending on how exaggerated the metaphors he uses or how long-winded his answers are. Longer answers usually tend to be serious, but short answers with silly comparisons are usually in jest.
The "Lv100 Gorgon" thing is a clear indicator that he's joking there.
Caliburn has the ability to completely burn through anything that is below its rank. The narrative in that scene implies that Caliburn hit Berserker in the heart and then burned him to a crisp from the inside. Basically, God Hand was overwhelmed, and he died 6 times in a row because he was constantly reviving while also dieing at the same time.
So judging from what I'm getting here, it has a anti-monster property but the whole one shotting part is the joke? only way i can see to make both of your statements correct
Yes, real K&B have anti-monster properties, just don't use Gorgon example.
Man, I only just finished the 3 routes of FSN yesterday, this thread is filling my brain with fuck. There's really this much more to the series?
Damn, I don't even know where to start from here. F/Z, perhaps?
read the bottom part
Fate/Zero, Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, Fate/Extra, Fate/Extra CCC.
Also see: Tsukihime, Kagetsu Tohya, and Melty Blood, for the other major half of Type-Moon's universe.
And the Kara no Kyoukai movies if you like.
It's like you don't get how that works
Avenger's NP is basically the shittiest one out there since he can only make others feel the pain he's currently feeling, meaning he has to be near death for it to have much effect, and if he dies then it wears off entirely.
You get the same effect with Lancer except far better results since he can push opponents much farther while Bazett only needs ready Frag in turn. It's like you didn't realize that Avenger was Bazett's weight, he was the weakest servant out there and only proved to give her a handicap in the match yet she still won each time.
Thank you anons, that's perfect. Now I know what I'll be doing for the next chunk of my time.
Although I'm slightly confused, if F/HA isn't finished being translated (or at least not finished being verified), how does everyone know what happens in it? Is it the anons who can understand moon, or am I missing a detail?
F/HA trnslation is finished they are verifying the translations currently. but even then there is still alot of untranslated Nasuverse stuff. most of the translations aren't really good either.
People knowing moon, clipped translations from Beast's Lair, partial translation patch already released.
> cd drama
May you re-upload it somewhere? Kinda lost he link.