Anybody have insight on how fansubbers compare? Any comprehensive ranking (however subjective it may be)? Currently watching AnoHana with m33w and UTW subtitle options. So far m33w seems to try to stay a bit more literal, which I appreciate; not that I actually know japanese, but I can occasionally tell when UTW tries to make it sound more natural.
So you appreciate subs that sound unnatural?
Of course desu.
Every knowledgeable person-san should know that the closer to grorious nippon, the better!
In a way, yes. I appreciate estimating literal translation. If I'm ever confused, I'd rather just look up the idiom than have someone else's convenient interpretation.
But you don't even know what's literal or not because you don't understand Japanese. You're simply assuming that if it sounds unnatural, it's literal and therefore more accurate, when the more likely explanation is that the translator is a FOB who can't speak english properly.
I know enough random words and sentence structure to know when something is being left out.
>I appreciate estimating literal translation.
You are what's wrong with this world.
If you still need subtitles to watch anime then no, you probably don't.
What? trying to understand someone's perspective from a linguistic stand point?
But you aren't.
If you were, you'd have learned Japanese and watch it without subtitles.
If you want to study the language, study the language.
Watch anime raw and see how much you understand. If you don't get something, look it up. Closed captions help here.
Just because a translation is dictionary-literal doesn't mean it's accurate. In fact, it's usually less so.
Being able to interpret the nuance, meaning, and wider context of dialogue and include that in your translation is a hugely important skill and is basically what separates the experienced translators from the amateurs.
If the translator included an unnatural-sounding "literal translation", chances are they just didn't understand the phrase well enough to translate it properly. Trying to learn from that is basically the blind leading the blind.
Well, I do. I watch english videos in subtitles too. I enjoy it.
That's just for anime though. I don't care to be fluent in every language in the world.
I've considered it. I do peace together the dialogue sometimes when subtitles were broken/accidentally left out.
>he wouldn't die even if he was killed
It's usually obvious when something is idiomatic. Often there is no equivalent.
what's wrong with this? makes sense to me.
It's an idiom. It's not supposed to be literal.
A better translation would be: "He's not going to die easily."
If you found an English idiom for that, use it. Don't go for a literal translation that just leaves people amused.
I can't stand liberal translations. Knowing for a fact that what's being written isn't what's being said ruins my experience.
How do you deal with the fact that what people say to you doesn't match perfectly with what they mean?
Your assumption that "it sounds unnatural so it must be more literal" is idiotic and insulting to translation. If something sounds unnatural, the most likely explanation is that the translator is simply inexperienced, can't read the tone, doesn't know the target language well, and possibly lacks in basic comprehension. Since you need subs to actually understand the content, unnatural translations will give you lesser understanding experience than what high quality natural translations would.
AnoHana is boring as SHIT
>ctrl + f "forced"
Get your shit together /a/.
I'm sure in context it would be fairly easy to determine they just meant tough or stubborn, and in the context of combat specifically it would be obvious what they're talking about.
I agree. I know for a fact they do this in other languages I do know.
I don't know why you think I said unnatural=literal. I said it is obvious when they are trying to make it natural.
Don't give into the dark side, Luke.
I would use context to assess their meaning, like any attentive person would.
No, loss (alteration) of information stemming from putting thoughts into words.
You can do the same in anime.
Translation is all about meaning. The translation is supposed to be as close to the original material while losing as much as possible (you always lose something in translation).
Overly literal translations tend to lose as much as overly liberal. Besides obvious things like puns, important information like the tone a character uses can be lost in translation if you just do a 1:1 translation.
True, but I find my interpretation to come easier and more accurate from a literal translation.
>while losing as much as possible
While losting as LITTLE much as possible. Fuck.
>I'm sure in context it would be fairly easy to determine they just meant tough or stubborn,
Yes, it would, but it still sounds strange and doesn't match the mood.
Just like when I tell you that not every translation fits the situation like the fist into the eye*, it just sounds weird. That shouldn't happen in a story where the atmosphere is an important part of the whole package.
I'm no English wizard or anything but just "little" sounds better.
Little isn't enough for a real man.
Yeah I was about to fix myself again.
I enjoy learning the idioms
I don't think keeping the atmosphere in perspective while learning something is terribly demanding.
I've never heard that one, mind enlightening me?
Where's that comparison image again?
Dear OP. Please take some time and read the following links. You can just read the linked sections from the first two, but I would highly recommend you read the third link in its entirety (even if you have no interest in actually translating yourself).
Long story short is that saying that a translation is just "literal" or "liberal" like it's a black and white thing is rather dumb, as it's more like shades of grey. Not to mention that liberal translating is not "shit", it just means that it's more challenging to translate accurately (but if you can pull it off, you get better results as well). But you should really read the links anyway. The author knows what he's talking about.
>I don't think keeping the atmosphere in perspective while learning something is terribly demanding.
If you mean what I think you mean you are saying that the atmosphere should be sacrificed for a literal translation?
Thanks for the info. I'm aware the result is not so binary, as you said. It is mostly that I like learning things about languages even if I'm not actually learning the language. You still get to learn a lot about the culture.
I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. Although your image does make for amusing/awkward moments, I don't think it would totally ruin the atmosphere. I think most people are open enough to understand that what it happens to mean in their language isn't always what it means to someone else, especially given ample context. To be clear, I prefer this translation to something like "now for some much needed sustenance"
I actually did see some of this before posting. Didn't read a whole lot before but am doing so now.
One thing I would like to assert though is that it seems this author and many here view languages as being very dichotomous; I would say they are much more interrelated. It's a good read though.
>liberal translating is not "shit"
>it seems this author and many here view languages as being very dichotomous; I would say they are much more interrelated
But Japanese and English ARE very different languages in about every single way.
Japanese is like latin. English was made from latin. Checkmate.
I would argue the differences are occasionally exaggerated. There are certainly important differences. My point was simply that there are languages more similar and less similar than japanese and english.
Daiz, why is UTW pulling a SHAFT with Nise?
What part confused you?
>My point was simply that there are languages more similar and less similar than japanese and english.
But we haven't been talking about other languages - we've been talking about Japanese and English, and specifically Japanese to English translation. The same goes for the links I posted. If that was your point, then it's not really related to the specific topic at hand.
How about the fact that Japanese is not like Latin at all?
Have you studied either?
Perhaps I didn't explain it well. I meant that "localizing" is too often taken to the extreme in the assumption that the audience is incapable of deducting meaning from something other than phrases they've already heard before. In the articles LS comparison of MPD Ep2 for example I get a better understanding of the both the dialogue and the culture with the LS3 example than the suggested LS7 "ends justify the means" example.
DAIZ what do you think of Kaitou subs
I watched m33ws sub and liked it a lot
What does it tell you about the culture?
did you watch any with UTW, too?
I've studied some Japanese, but not like that matters when a simple web search will tell you that the languages have no relation whatsoever. Latin (and English) are from the Indo-European language family, while Japanese is from the Japonic language family. That means there is no known linguistic links or relations between the two at all.
How much is "some"? Did you at least finish Tae kim?
that the situation denotes urgency and the change in assertiveness that the resulting dialogue demands.
"the ends justify the means" makes it sound philosophically relaxed.
Japanese, Latin, Turkish
There's a lot more languages than there are word orders, so some incidental overlaps are bound to happen. That doesn't mean the languages would be actually related to each other.
Very important that, especially in context, when you said that Japanese is like English because English is based on Latin.
Are you trolling?
I believe >>101562635
may be extrapolating but I agree language similarities go beyond simple history. It's largely inevitable that a single species will have very similar patterns in many facets of life regardless of whether they are historically influenced or not.
But I digress. As I said, I'm fine with a completely subjective ranking of popular fansubbers. At least it will give me a place to start rather than have to personally go back and take note of multiple products of each group.
Please no bully.
But what does that have to do with "the culture" you supposedly understand better from it?
Also, you shouldn't really make claims like that when you haven't actually watched the scene and are simply reading the line in isolation. Context, tone and all play a part in understanding.
For example, we already know the situation is urgent from a previous line and the larger context, so it's not necessary to repeat it in that particular line.
Here's a larger snippet of the conversation, where they're using invisible penguins to investigate the belongings of a girl they don't know for an item they need to save their sister's life (which has already been established earlier).
>Check her belongings.
>See if she has anything suspicious.
>>Hey, do you really think we should be doing this?
>How else are we going to investigate a total stranger?
>She'll never find out.
>It's not like we're causing anyone harm.
>>That's not what I meant.
>>It's a moral issue.
>>This is still a crime even if no one can see the penguins.
>How are we supposed to find it?
>Himari will die unless we get it.
>There's no way she'll hand it over if we just ask.
>The end justifies the means.
>We've got to do it.
And again, "the end justifies the means" is used exactly in situations like this in English.
Specifically, the language culture, not so much the social culture. How people talk to eachother, or pragmatics, is just as important if not more so than what they say. I recall this scene. The only reason this phrase is used in english for such a situation is because that how people talk to eachother in english. There is quite a pragmatic difference between that and "This isn’t the time to be picky about our methods" because although the functionally is more comfortable to the audience, we lose a lot of tone.
although *it's* functionally
But ultimately, it it just my preference. I just wanted people to understand I'm not a complete idiot and I know what I want.
And how do you know which tone is closer to the actual tone of the scene?
You're not a translator. This is a pointless discussion.
The actual translator of that scene chose the phrase because he felt it was the most fitting to the tone and context. As long as you still need subtitles to watch anime, I don't see how you can credibly contradict that.
Most decent fansubbing groups have editors who don't really need to know the source language in addition to the translators for reasons such as this. Just by watching the scene and their expressions one can see that tone is lost. Why do we keep insinuating we have to know the internals to understand the result? I'd use a car analogy here but I think we can all agree that would only be annoying and inevitably not entirely accurate.
>Specifically, the language culture, not so much the social culture. How people talk to eachother, or pragmatics, is just as important if not more so than what they say.
Do you realize that what you're basically saying is that "all our translations should be LS-2 since keeping the exact words used is so important"?
Trying to preserve language culture makes no sense when you're not using said language. Your primary task as a translator is to translate meaning, not mechanically translate words and rearrange them - an English language script should be constructed with the culture of English language, not with the culture of Japanese language. A Japanese person will not consciously think about the language culture used when watching something, and to get a similar experience neither should you when watching it in English. The goal of anime is to entertain, not to give foreigners lessons in Japanese language.
If 8ths word is that trustable, than why is Anime-koi's Outbreak company blue on nyaa when it has the lowest grade?
>Often there is no equivalent.
No. Often there is an equivalent. Humans use the same concept. If we can make chimps and gorillas talk with us, why the fuck do you think two languages of the same species would be so wildly different that translation isn't possible?
Nope. For one, nobody cares more about accuracy than 8thsin. If he uses a phrase, you can be damned sure he considered all the options and decided it was the best one.
Translators don't approach their task with the mindset of "let's use familiar phrases which technically aren't accurate". Nobody does this, and any group which lets editors run amok on the script without the translator checking afterwards is a shitty group (ie not UTW).
You may think "tone is lost". The native Japanese-speaking translator with like 10 years of professional experience apparently did not. I'm going to believe him before I believe you, and if you think you know better, you're kidding yourself.
Also, a modern editor would recommend something like "We don't have the luxury of the moral high ground"
I'm not saying it's right for everyone. I'm saying it's my preference and I would like to be aware of fansubbers that do likewise.
All in all, if you want to learn about the language culture of Japanese, then here's my suggestion: instead of pretending to learn something from poorly done translations, study and learn Japanese properly instead. That's the only real way you're going to understand Japanese language culture.
>I'm saying it's my preference and I would like to be aware of fansubbers that do likewise.
Any group with inexperienced translators, probably. tri4 were the only ones to do it as their general group philosophy, and they're quite rightfully dead.
What you want goes against what is widely regarded as translation best practice, so none of the decent groups these days do it anymore. If anything, you can probably get it from groups like Hatsuyuki and Doki.
Back in the day, a lot of groups did it. It was a difficult battle, convincing the anime community that you didn't need nakama to describe the crew of One Piece.
You watch little girls doing cute things and you are this concerned about the quality of the subtitles?
That's useful information. Thank you.
I've learned other languages and I didn't find that to be necessary.
Probably a bad example as I rarely do. I just happened to be an available example.
They are not properly Japanese-style cute if the subtitles don't put a "chan" behind their names!
(Which tripfag argued this? I can't remember.)
Because he only grades the script.
>I meant that "localizing" is too often taken to the extreme in the assumption that the audience is incapable of deducting meaning from something other than phrases they've already heard before.
Just so you know, /a/ is not the only anime community. There are plenty of people who fit this description, which is the point of said localization.
As should be the case. Having the practice best suit the total target only makes sense. I was merely inquiring.