Seeing Karin's face like this is the best feeling.
Yeah, but in the end the failure was not really her fault, she managed to prevent Tou from moving around while assaulting Kankoku Pass.
I love how Bamyuu runs away as soon as he hears news of the failure.
True that. But, I wonder about one thing: Had she sent stronger officers with the ambush force, could they not have held off Ousen's troops for long enough to open the gate? Likely not, but that's the only possible mistake I can see she made.
In Kingdom the more named officers you have the stronger you are but I don't know how they would have made a difference in this case.
Moreover the 5000 elite soldiers proved to be a match to Ouki's veteran. They can probably fight independently.
Now I wonder what is Riboku up to, like Ousen and Karin in this battle he likes discretly moving his forces.
I always felt it was strange that Karin, despite being a general, didn't have ANY named officers (except Bamyuu) until she got Baldie's. And perhaps they could have made a difference, the Muh Sword guy who fought Tou is a stronger fighter than anyone in Ousen's army, so he might've been able to rally a proper defense to let the gate be opened.
BITCH I DON'T NEED TO LIFT A FINGER
Man seeing this guy conduct a proper full battle of his own one day will be amazing, as would be a proper Ousen-Moubu tag-team.
>Riboku is most dangerous
>his regular schemes gets outplayed
>WE HOUKEN NOW
>win only because you can convince your annoying BFF to come out of his jungle
More like he goes easy on his opponents so they'll come rushing straight into Houken and get kill.
The ambush force was being zerg-rushed against a wall and a small pathway blocked with a boulder.
She'd probably need several Moubu-tier officers to hold off something like that.
why is Mougou so based?
>son wrecks the strongest general in coalition ( exc. houken )
>deputy generals carry the entire war momentum by deflecting key attacks on pass, and crippling movements of core armies.
Houken is a wild card, he only comes out for the strong in order to prove himself. Maybe he has some feelings or at least some measure of respect towards Riboku. I am expecting in the future someone like Kanki trying to assassinate him only to get bamboozled by Riboku being able to swing a sword.
His skill in HR is what distinguishes him, I can now understand how he got to as high a position in the Qin military as he did.
daily reminder that shin is a giant failure
>work your way from servant to 5000 man general in a few years
Operating on the assumption that he's promoted after the current war, and frankly I can't imagine it not happening. Already bagged a general and he's undoubtedly play a large role now that Riboku is making his move.
Not a failure, but a retard.
Wait so Riboku just ran back home or what?
Will the war actually end in the next few chapters?
He is probably just fetching Houken
Could Moubu beat Houken?
MAYBE if Houken cuts Mouten in front of him.
It's possible but would probably be similar to fighting Kanmei
Ousen is Qin's Yamakan.
Everyone doubts his motives, but he is always saving Qin. They even look similar.
Houken probably has a plot device that says on his forehead
>cannot be defeated by anyone without an alpha powerlevel variable
So even if Moubu could, he would still lose.
Houken got his ass saved by that arrow.
But even the narrator agrees that it was all that scrub Kanmei's fault!
Seriously though, getting hit in the back by an army twice as big as you while trying to move some bigass rocks is a serious handicap. I doubt stronger officers could have made a difference.
Reminder that Moubu should be unable to fight due to the injuries during the fight. Also got hammered in the face and got up like it's nothing.
Why is this manga so retarded, I really wanted it to be more like Ravages of Time ;_;
This was never realistic from the beginning
Hell, even in Ravages Zhao Yun should be dead at least ten times by now
I like Ravages a lot but sometimes there's too many "Just as planned moments" for me. Kingdom's straightforward hotbloodness works for me as well.
Lu Bu level of intelligence and trickery is fine and fun, but characters like Yuan Fang and Sima Yi are insufferable and it trivializes the intelligence of other competent generals since you know that they'll never be able to pull a fast one on the 8 geniuses. (I do like Cao's advisers except for Sima Yi though)
But I guess it's kind of a moot comparison because those two are really entirely different type of works.
What's the matter pussy? Can't handle big manly butts?
I like both this and Ravages. This is better for silliness and MANLINESS while Ravages is better for seriousness and development.
I think they're both really good with character arcs and such, though. I couldn't say one is better than the other in that regard even if you had a gun to my head.
So was Ousen's thinking/plan something like this?
>Lure Ordo's dumb ass and massacre his elites
>Decide that Ordo won't be doing any advancing so long as Ordo thinks there's a possibility of trap
>Divert half of his army away, making Ordo thinks there's a trap.
I guess the only thing I don't understand is why Ousen decided to lead his army to behind the pass.
It seems like that Ousen would have been just making himself an insurance plan in case anything funny went down at the pass.
While it worked out great because of Karin, there's not a whole lot of glory and credit that comes from being the reinforcement.
Wouldn't someone of his ambition rather go on the attack and try to take out the Coalition's HQ while his army is unaccounted for?
He's the savior of the battle now because he stopped them from opening the gate. Motherfucker is swimming in glory.
Yeah, but how did he know that Karin was going to bypass the pass?
If Karin didn't do her thing, then Ousen would have only received credit for beating Ordo's dumb ass.
If Ousen didn't know that Karin was doing her thing, couldn't he arguably have gained glory by trying to ambush the Coalition HQ with a surprise attack?
And if he knew Karin was doing her thing, how did he know? (Besides the fact that Ousen is the best)
1. To attack the coalition HQ would mean pulling his unit out of the mountains or doing some kind of crazy raid, neither of which Ousen seems like he'd do.
2. Once he saw the fires from the gate he could make a reasonable guess on how the battle there was going. Even if there weren't any shenanigans, his unit showing up would still be him saving the day after fulfilling his own mission.
Double honor combo, bro. Ousen plays that shit like scrabble.
The only problem with #2 is that the manga stays that "From the very moment the morning ambush ended, Ousen had set of with his 10,000 troops to assist Kankou pass".
So he left for the pass before the gate was under serious danger.
But your other point makes sense. Attacking the coalition HQ seems like something Kanki would pull, not the conservative Ousen.
And I suppose holding the pass was the top strategic priority so Ousen did the right thing
>Build your famous invincible mountain fortress
>Ordo outwits you, taking the fortress with hardly any casualties
>Run like a bitch, get disorientated in the mountains and split from your main forces because of all-out panic
>accidentally end up right behind Ordos troops, when they tried to climp a cliff and rush them from behind
>i-i-i-implying that was not my plan from the beginning, r-r-right?
>get ordered to do your fucking job and beat back Ordo and from your previous fortress
>again panic, because you dont know how
>wait near Kankoku pass to find the perfect opportunity to defect to the enemies, when the pass falls
>FINALLY the Chu troops appear
>run to them to surrender
>the Chu think you are attacking them and fight back, everyone kills everyone in the chaos, Chu get annihilated
>get hailed as the GREATEST GENERAL and master tactican
Y-y-yeah, e-e-verything went just as p-planned.
He is the most based general of them all.
That old Bittenfeld luck is strong in Ousen
I like how Shin's plan died so fucking easily.
Well, it certainly has a "Just as keikaku" ring to it
CAN YOU HEAR IT? IS THE OUSEN MACHINE
Thats some Buggy tier right there. What is Ravages if I may ask? I know thread is about Kingdom.
Ravages of Time is another manga about the Chinese Wars, it has some pretty cool art and battles but most of it is "Ha! I am behind you! No, I am! No, I am!"
It also has a horrible, horrible translation
Houken wasn't actually at his strongest during Bayou arc. It was stated by the narration itself as well as Riboku.
Current Houken is genuine Bushin and not MUH VENGEANCE
>Reminder that Zhao Yun single handedly stormed through an army numbering in the tens of thousands with a baby strapped on his chest not wanting trouble
>Defeats all Wei officers with the exception of Zhang He and still holds out against Zhang Liao until Zhang Fei saves his ass
Sorry but while Ravages is clearly the superior manga, Zhao Yun is so godly at this point he can probably rape Ousen's army alone provided he has 5 wagons of throwing knives.
You say that, but Yuan Fang ultimately lost and he was only as clever and powerful as he was because he has the #1 foundation to build his strategies from. It's almost irrefutable that Guo Jia, Pang Tong, Zhuge Liang, and even Zhao Yu would produce similar results had they been born as the 'intended' heir to the Yuan clan.
We're talking a 10:1 ratio to the Cao clan. It's a bigger difference than Chu to Qin.
Sima Yi's tricks don't actually trivialize people so much as his intelligence comes from business, which is what most military generals have no experience in. Plus he actually is historically a rival to Zhuge Liang who trivializes other competent generals in the novel, so what's there to be annoyed about?
Cao Cao right now has basically put Sima Yi in his place and cut off any chance of rebellion for his life time, which shows Cao Cao has already grasped Sima Yi's moves. It's clear while Sima Yi is destined to win, he's not having it easy.
Bittenfeld would actually be Shin. Survives everything, only loses to vastly superior odds, accomplishes a lot over time, and most importantly has the most named kills in the series because MUH CHARGE.
Ousen is pretty much Yang Wenli if he actually had ambition and wasn't beta.
But unlike usual BEHIND YOUS it actually utilizes very feasible plans that simply take into account more factors in war.
It's not about pulling out of your ass a hidden technique, it's about making use of allies and forces that were obviously there historically but other adaptations of 3K never bothered to even mention in the story.
Many of the BEHIND YOU JUST AS KEIKAKU (ranging in the 90s%) are all foreshadowed in previous chapters, if not HUNDREDS of chapters.
Only the first few volumes. Once HMK picks it up it's no different than Turnip Farmers.
Man, I know that the plans are always ass pulls but I remember this arc with Liu Bu which was practically Keikau: The Arc: The Manga: The Movie
Shit was tedious.
Still, this killed me.
I just didn't like Yuan Fang being smug all the time. The characters you mentioned are all part of the Eight Geniuses.
I like Cao's advisers because they were entertaining but for some reason I was never a big fan of Yuan Fang's character.
What I'm not a big fan of is that Ravages has created all these great generals, who aren't just brutes but also intelligent. That was actually one of the themes of the manga.
But then the Eight Geniuses show up and most of the general are essentially reduced to brutes at this stage anyway with few exceptions. (Zhang Fei) etc.
The Eight Geniuses are good characters for the most part, I just feel like it's a waste that the Eight Geniuses haven't been shown to be fallible except against other Eight Geniuses.
It makes them almost inhumane in a way. Other generals make mistakes, recover, and exploit other general's mistakes. The Eight Geniuses only really do that against each other and that trivializes the other generals and advisers, which seems like wasted potential.
Of course, I haven't kept up with Ravages for few months now so I'd be happy to be proven wrong
Keep you wondering how the story will go in the future.
In the next arcs most of the 8 geniuses will die (well the 7 who are revealed). And there is no way in hell that we will have the boring ZHUGE LIANG WINS LEL stuff from the original novel.
>Bittenfeld would actually be Shin. Survives everything, only loses to vastly superior odds, accomplishes a lot over time, and most importantly has the most named kills in the series because MUH CHARGE.
I wonder when will SHiN defeat a really big name general. But yeah, they are similar.
Eventually, Bittenfeld's descendants will be Emperors?
He just did, that Zhan general was no joke
Karin's looking into the future, what's Kanmei's fault is the subsequent withdrawal of the coalition armies that Karin saw coming, he had nothing to do with her failed flanking attack.
Really? Most Lu Bu fans loved how his faction held out despite historically getting raped by famine and drought. Plus, we get to see Lu Bu go balls out when Lil One ...ya know.
Understandable but that was part of his character flaw. If he wasn't smug he wouldn't have lost, and that's just fucked up. The entire point of his character is that he has more talent than his peers, and so he neglects certain things (like Sun Tzu's art of war) because instead of trying to truly understand it he simply makes up for it using his innate talent.
Which is shown very clearly when Cao Cao rapes the shit out of him in open combat. Cao Cao is no 8 genius, and he is clearly on the same level as Yuan Fang/Sima Yi if not higher.
Your thoughts about the 8 geniuses overshadowing everyone can be attributed to the historical recordings itself. Chan Mou simply gives a reason to why they are so fucking smart, being that they were prodigies hand picked to study under Water Mirror and compete with each other.
It doesn't matter what adaptation you read, those 8 people will ALWAYS be above everyone in intellect beyond the exceptions like Cao Cao/Sima Yi/etc.
The only reason you don't see the 8 geniuses as fallible is because you view all those under their command as their accomplishments. Guo Jia did not expect Yuan Fang to die to his agent, he was expecting a much longer war. The agent instead pulled one over him and took the biggest credit for the war.
Basically it all comes down to the positions each character has in the story. When you're at the top of the food chain, all you have to simply do is plan around a loss because you have the resources to do so. When the guy under you loses at your command, he loses credibility but due to the back up plan the guy at the top doesn't. It's an unfair comparison. Basically the 8 geniuses have LEE WAY to fail and cover it up.
I wanted to feel bad for Lil One but Lu Bu level of dick was too big for me to care.
Not everyone is suppose to like Lu Bu. The guy would be Mary fucking Sue if he wasn't a douche.
Though for Vinland fans, I'd argue Lu Bu is no more of a dick than Askeladd.
>Yeah, but how did he know that Karin was going to bypass the pass?
He didn't, but the risk that someone would was too large to be ignored. He did it just in case. Ousen is ALL about precaution.
Fuck you nigga, fight me.
Do we know that he is? For him to be riding with an army, seems like he's uncertain about his Path and the strength he's gotten along it, since Ouki could draw on such unexpected strength. He's trying to find out what it was about?
At least the 8 geniuses have competition between each other and main characters.
Ousen literally has 1 person stalling him the entire series. And Riboku dies anyway Don't see anyone complaining about him using his one trick pony over and over again and beating everyone.
>The agent instead pulled one over him and took the biggest credit for the war.
I was really dissappointed after all the hype about that guy being a master intrigant on the same level as Sima Yi and then looking up his name and finding out that he was just a minor character, who will soon be killed.
At least we will probably get an epic battle of wits between him and SY about who will be the Cao Cao heir.
There are people who dont like the magnificent RoT Lu Bu?
>Don't see anyone complaining about him using his one trick pony over and over again
Almost EVERYONE is complaining about that all the time.
Read the Gekishin chapters again. Houken shows how much he learned from fighting Ouki and ultimately gained respect for the Path that generals take, no longer viewing it as simply inferior to his Bushin path.
Which is why he killed Gekishin in the same way Ouki was killing him in his final moments calling the geezer a fraud. It's acknowledgement that he accepts Ouki's values even if he might not abide by them, and is now actively seeking out the next worthy opponent.
What's important to note is that unlike Kyoukai under God Dance, Houken has never completely mastered his mental fortitude at any point in the series shown hence there's still more power to unlock from that. He's definitely not enlightened, but he is a far cry better than he was at Bayou.
Hell naw, Ousen is the shit.
You wanna know who was fucking minor? Gao Shun.
DO YOU SEE ANYONE WHO DARES CRITICIZE THE INVENTOR OF THE HORSE CHAIR?
Plus, Ravages already taught us that not all those talented live a long life. The entire arc of Ling Cao dying was cemented that he was nearly as capable as Zhao Yun and therefore was someone who would eventually surpass Lu Bu, yet died early because that's just how life is.
Pang Tong wasn't even behind the crazy shit that fucked over Cao Cao when he tried to go NTR a wife in the novels, yet we got an entire fucking arc over it. Historically, Pang Tong takes part in Red Cliffe and some minor shit then dies early, never living up to his title.
Quote then, because the past 10-20 Kingdom threads there has not been a single person complaining about Ousen ever.
To add to that, there's additional symbolism in that chapter as well.
With Ouki slowly cleaving Houken, the weight of a Great General of the Heavens allowed a dying Ouki to slowly cut into Houken's neck, despite the latter trying his best with his hand to stop it. This wasn't suppose to be to prove that Ouki was stronger than Houken, but that Ouki still somehow pulled out such strength with a hole in his chest.
This is because if you read the chapter again, the way Houken is holding the glaive doesn't permit full use of his strength, and he only uses one hand. Basically it was the handicap of how Houken was holding the glaive vs Ouki bleeding out and being in intense pain. Ouki won.
With Gekishin, not only did Houken mimic Ouki and only use one hand, but Gekishin, despite blocking with his glaive with two hands, not only fails to keep up with his strength, but his weapon actually remained intact when the old general buckled under the weight of Houken's might.
The glaive symbolizes the weight of a general, and Gekishin could not carry it, which is why Houken called him a fraud. He didn't even die befitting his title.
I dont know who Gao Shun was anymore. That horse general on Lu Bus side?
But yes, Pang Tongs death was funny. Will be interesting to see how RoT will handle it.
I just pray, that it wont involve Sima Yi somehow, because I would seriously rage.
Okay, may bad, I thought you mean, that nobody is complaining about Ribokos "strategy" not Ousen.
Its a shame that we will spend the next two years with the battle of Red Cliff/Chibi, where we already knew the outcome and most of the strategies and intrigues involved.
I cant wait for the stuff that happens afterwards.
This chapter is kinda fucked up. The narration implies that Ousen's decoy force was less than 10,000, and his main force at Kankoku Pass was 10,000.
The wording, unless translated poorly, implies that this was Ousen's total force. Which would mean Ousen went from 70,000 men to merely <20,000 at this point.
The fuck? My guess is it's simply worded wrong and that he has more hidden forces, because it would mean Ordo either lost a massive chunk as well, or that even despite the defensive mountains, Ousen's army got raped to shit.
Well, Ousen lost his HQ, which was stated to be a really severe blow, so he probably lost a few tens of thousands. Ordo was really confident as well, so he must've known he inflicted huge losses.
What if his main force just hand't arrive yet? He clearly has more footmen than cavalry
His main forces retreated away from the battlefield, which was the whole point of why Ordo felt that he can advance into the mountains with his elites and dont need to pay much attention to his surroundings.
As that guy above said
Ousen had a lot of luck, that he could first surprise Ordo and then aid to defend against the Chu troops behind the pass, because it made him suddenly look far better.
Gao Shun is the Ambusher and commands Lu Bu's chargers. The guy who is balding with blonde hair but has a thick black mustache.
Riboku actually has a lot more variety to his strategies than Ousen so far. He went from information manipulation to hiding at the side of Gekishin to creating a coalition.
Ousen is the one trick pony here, and even his reinforcement to Kankoku Pass is merely an extension of that plan. He's like Yang Wenli, his entire core strategy revolves around tricking people.
He's not actually as sound as Riboku on a tactical or political level so far.
Yes, but it's the twists and fleshing out of said strategies and intrigues that make them fun.
Even with the little that we have right now, ROT has:
>Created a more logical reason to why Kan Ze joins Cao Cao instead of OH HUANG GAI U A GOOD MAN I HELP YOU out of fucking nowhere
>Showed us how naval battles back then worked, and what tactics Wu used to gain supremacy over the waters tying in the currents, formations, etc
>1000000000% better version of Battle of Changban and Zhang Fei holding off Wei at the bridge and ironically far far more realistic despite being over the top already
>Xu Shu not becoming absolutely useless due to his oath and becoming a forgotten character
>How Jia Xu cleverly uses ships and refugees as camouflage
And much much more. None of these are ever touched upon in the novel, because that's outdated shit, and for some reason every adaptation besides ROT seems to blindly follow it or go full retard like Souten Kouro.
All 3 conflicting opinions, so can we at least agree that it's not confirmed (no rawfags don't spoil) that we absolutely know the current status of Ousen and Ordo's remaining forces?
Unless someone wants to show evidence that clearly shows it's only pointing at one possibility and not the rest.
You forgot the political intrigue revolving around Liu Bei/SSX/Zhao Yun/Zhuge/Zhao Yu which is gonna set up for all sorts of entertainment.
Which goes doubly for SSX/LYH shippers. DOES THE TRAP STILL HOLD HIS HEART?
>Reminder Zhang Liao is invincible when fighting in a 3x3 grid.
The narration that implies Ordo would win if he mobilized his whole force on Kankoku Pass seems to indicate that either:
>Ousen only has <20k men left
>Ousen's other forces were hiding far far beyond reach and would not make it to Kankoku Pass in time
>Ousen's other forces are going somewhere else or preparing for another rape fest tomorrow
And now we have Commander in Chief Houken leading the way?
So when do the mountain people appear?
This guy also should have died multiple times
It was really satisfying when the Handicapped Warriors and Lu Bu died because fuck, finally someone could actually DIE for once.
>that's her cumming face
THIS is a cumming face
That was such a fucking bullshit
>Fucking rain of arrows
>Some pages later he is still there
Yeah, but that is mostly what happened before Chibi (and I see, you havent read the raws).
Also, the immediate aftermatch will be interesting as well, but the battle itself should play out pretty straight-forward, especially because it was explained in so much detail already in the novel.
Still, the author already confirmed, that he skipped over much of the fighting in the north against the Yuan clan to concentrate more on Chibi.
Yeah even though I think the criticisms about ROT being too Keikaku I think scenes like this were too much.
If it were Lu Bu or someone with very high martial skill, it's one thing. But Chen Gong of all people? The fuck?
Its too long ago, but was it said, that he was directly targeted?
Yeah I didn't read the raws yet, no spoils please.
As for the Yuan clan skipping, it's not like the other adaptations I read went into as much detail either. The fact that we even got as far as fighting Gao Gan and whoever was already pretty good.
Not at all, but it's simply the picture angle that makes it look like he's fucked, but I think Chan Mou did it for that OH SHIT factor which it really did well.
SPOILER: CAOCAO WILL LOSE THE BATTLE OF CHIBI !!!!!!!!!
I dont know about other adaptions, but it was strange how he gets in so much details about all the previous battles and then just skips many years/the Yuan battles/ the new sun clan leader guy establishing his rule/ Liu Bei moving to the south and some battles there as well.
In some interview Chan Mou said that he actually wanted to cover at least some of the northern battles, but decided against it.
Because he wasn't married and had kids when he started, and he still has bucket loads to cover. It's unfortunate but if he's gonna finish it within his life time he can't go snail pace like he did before.
I do agree it's a shame, though I didn't really care about the Yuan battles after they lost Yuan Fang and the Gao guy. There was literally no one on Yuan Shang's side that mattered at that point.
I would also be okay with the pacing, if he didnt announce, that he will take large focus on Chibi.
Actually, even that is handled till now in a satisfying matter, so if he continues like that there is nothing to complain about. I just fear, that it will slow down and take something like 2 years to finish.
I'm confused. You want him to take his time showing Red Cliffe or do you want him to be fast about it and get it over with?
Either way, Kingdom's so much more interesting because we get multiple chapters a week and have good scans. If only Turnip Farmers would help out HMK afterwards they would be gods.
It's gonna suck ass once we get to 1 chapter a week and have those infodump ones that don't get your blood pumping.
Be fast with it. Everyone already knows most of the stuff about it and it should rather show other stuff.
Or just keep the current pace and end it somewhere in the second half of 2014
Especially if we get some shitty unimportant small wars there just for Shin to become a general.
Most likely he's gonna Become a general after Zhao falls, since the next major campaign is Chu and that's when he leads and gets raped.
Also if I were to guess, his merit would be Killing Houken during the Zhao invasion
But anon, historical spoilers:
The wars of conquest don't start until Ryo Fui and Sei duke it out for control of the Kingdom. Zhao's not the first state to fall either and Chu's one of last states to fall.
Yeah I know that, it just means he's gonna be a 3000-5000 man commander in the mean time.. If Hara follows history by the time they invade Zhao again after Kanki bails, Kyoukai takes his place as the third general, so that would mean Kyoukai shoots past Shin, or Hara retcons it and makes Shin the third general acting as deputy to Ousen along with Yotanwa. Plus shonen manga logic (and this series is pretty much shonen except it shows gore and shit) dictates if tragedy strikes, it's gonna be when he hits the peak of his career which killing Houken would do wonders for him. At most even when he loses at Chu he will kill Renpa but still fail.