Griffith did nothing wrong!
Coobs did nothing wrong! Ditto Homu.
Yah he didn't mean to kill all thoes people to obtain his dream. It just sorta happened.
To be fair Guts leaving everyone and all kinda started it all.
The circumstances around the sacrifice were really unfortunate, but it wasn't a bad choice. Griffith's dream is important to many people, not just himself. Plus there's that whole wheels of causality thing that brings into question whether or not he can even be held responsible.
he did what any paraplegic with their tongue cut out and riddled with hatred would do
reminder that if you havent started berserk yet then you shouldnt.
reminder that if you are waiting for the next chapter then you should put your grasses on.
So raping somebody is nothing wrong now?
Only men can rape, silly
Griffith isn't a man?
No, he is an angel.
It's not and never was. It's the most beautiful thing mankind ever invented.
Implying rape hasn't been a part of the natural order for millions of years prior to the dawn of man...
I guess you could say mankind invented rape, in a way. Before we existed it was just reproduction. Rape couldn't have even been a concept until people came up with ideas like personal space and respect. Maybe that's what he meant.
Rape is sex without consent. Animals are capable of that.
Of course not, animals can't consent to anything because they don't have a consciousness. Most of them.
Not too sure about monkeys and the like.
Bullshit. Shifting the blame to Guts, who simply wanted to be his own person instead of a tool, is retarded.
Aren't there actually cases of female animals adapting to prevent rape?
That is a topic that is still under research and therefore, we can't jump to those conclusions just yet
You must never have spent much time around animals...
besides, the "consent" thing is in regard to humans, you know. I've seen ducks rape each other, and you'd have to be literally retarded to say it wasn't rape.
Do you mean animals are capable of sex without consent, or that they are capable of consent and thus rape has meaning to them too? Either way, what I meant was that it's not a significant event to an animal like it is to people. They don't attach the same importance to personal space that we tend to, so the idea that they've been violated or sullied wouldn't occur to them. In that sense the concept of rape only exists in contrast to our idea of ordinary sex. That's just one way of looking at it though, I'm not adhering to it or anything.
Do you mean animals aren't* capable of sex without consent, or that they are capable of consent and thus rape has meaning to them too?
>Plus there's that whole wheels of causality thing that brings into question whether or not he can even be held responsible.
Yes he can. He was a hysterical little bitch and fucked over all of those people for whom his dream was important all because Guts wouldn't be his butt-buddy. End of discussion.
What the fuck was Griffith's dream anyway? To fuck over everyone who cared about him and plunge the world into darkness?
yeah, great dream guy
Clearly you've never seen an animal that has been abused. They value their personal space tremendously.
If his dream was important to them, they'd die gladly to fulfill it.
There's no need to blame anybody, it's a tragedy. A large reason Guts left was because he wanted to strengthen his friendship with Griffith and be seen as an equal by him. The sad part is, Guts was already really important to Griffith. He was the only person he felt comfortable confiding in, and the only person he felt confident would never die on the battlefield. Guts leaving without explaining his feelings to Griffith left him wondering what he did to drive him away, and it caused him to question whether or not having Guts around was more important than his dream of a kingdom.
You shouldn't just dismiss a character like that. Miura put a lot of effort into writing him well enough that many people could still relate to him even after the eclipse. You sound like somebody who read Berserk expecting a shounen.
people who honestly believe Griffith is right can't honestly exist, can they? Even with his completely fucked body, he still had a army that loved him to call on, and the admiration of all midland. If kingdom was still important to him he could have still gained midland, without turning all his friends into food, letting cannibalistic monsters run unchecked, and raping one of his most devout followers into insanity. Griffith is fucked in the head way more than he ever was in his body, and there's no way people can't realize that
To have a kingdom he could rule. The dream wasn't just for himself. Everyone in the Band of the Hawk benefited from it, and they were all spurring him onward. Griffith gave them something they could die for happily, and they gave Griffith the manpower and support he needed to rise to knighthood.
By turning into Femto, he gained the ability to realize his dream with far less loss of human life. Certainly, his friends were killed by demons, but they were just the top of a giant pile of corpses. With his demon army, not only could he oppose Ganishka(who would otherwise be quite unstoppable), but also take over Midland without killing so many people. And for what cost? The deaths of less than 20 people.
>animals don't have a consciousness
So you live in the middle-ages, do you?
He didn't do anything I couldn't relate to. The point is that the behelit activates when you're at your lowest possible point. Griffith defined himself by his dream for most of his life, it was the only sense of self he had. Guts shook that all loose, and made him question a lot of the things he took for granted. He pretty much had to agree to the sacrifice, to at least prove he was still himself. And this was after a year of torture, a year where all he could think about was how much he regretted letting Guts make him lose sight of what used to be most important in his life.
But you don't understand, these people have to believe animals can't suffer, so they can keep treating them as commodities with a clear conscience.
I don't think the Band of the Hawk died very happily. As a matter of fact, I think they would''ve rather gone on living than die for Griffith in the Eclipse.
The world is a diverse place. Not everyone is going to feel the same way you do.
I meant before the Eclipse. His decision in the Eclipse was a reaffirmation of that dream, and his resolution not to let his personal feelings get in the way of it a second time.
So what will happen with the behelit that Guts is carrying around?
As well as shitting on everybody who had believed in him, as well as raping Caska for the fun of it.
>The deaths of less than 20 people.
Nigga please, it wasn't the death of 20 people. It was giving his comrades, people who had put their faith and life in Griffiths hands, eternal suffering in hell. He was a crippled man who was jelous on Guts and Caska after he was rescued, he was not the same Griffith he was before the year of torture. That shit changes you, and Griffith beeing a person who did not care for anyone except Guts, it was a rather easy task for him to do.
Hell, after he became Femto, he doesn't even care for Guts anymore, just look at the rape of Caska and the reuinion on the hill of swords.
He don't give a fuck about how many lives he has to take to realize his dream.
His dream is all he cares about, nothing or noone else.
The rape provided him with a body to live in again, it wasn't just for fun. Although I'm sure he had a lot of pent up feelings so the rape was personal too. Also, he didn't shit on anybody. If he refused the sacrifice all of the people who lost their lives before the Eclipse would have died for nothing. Sacrificing the remaining band wasn't a sign of disrespect, and the fact he was even able to sacrifice them proves he still cared for them.
>Sacrificing the remaining band wasn't a sign of disrespect, and the fact he was even able to sacrifice them proves he still cared for them.
Man you gotta stop.
Dying with the brand is 100x more suffering than dying at the hand of apostles. Have you even read the manga?
I would have done the same thing, don't get me wrong, but trying to defend his actions as admirable is nothing less but delusional and plain retarded.
I personally think that since the Griffith that we all knew, loved, and rooted for in the beginning changed into man that was suddenly difficult to like or even love anymore. Sure, he is on his way to achieving what he always wanted but at what cost? He was willing to destroy everything he had built up to that point (sleeping with Charlotte), a disgusting rapist, and a so-called friend and leader who was willing to sacrifice his friends horribly for his goal as well as allow the departure of a man (granted the only man who respected him and understood him) to drive him off the deep end.
There are some people who simply do not want to let go of the ideal image of Griffith that they have in their mind - their hero is actually a monster beneath the guise of an angel. People do not want to accept this. They CAN'T accept it - so they come up with these excuses like "Femto and Griffith are not the same", or Griffith was told to "do as he wished" by the Idea of Evil which gives him justification for his actions because "God" told him to, or that he is a few steps from achieving his dream.
You can like a character for who he was and the dream that he is shooting for but that doesn't mean that what he is doing overall is right and you certainly don't have to agree with his methods. I sure as hell don't. No matter what happens at the very end of this, I hope Guts gets his revenge and gives Griffith the severe beating he deserves.
As if he had a right to that new body, as if he had to perform the rape in a manner that left Caska a mindless husk of her former self...
His decision wasn't entirely admirable, but it wasn't detestable either. Considering how he felt at the time, it was kind of the only decision he could make. Between feeling like he was losing his sense of self and feeling like he was wasting the lives of all the comrades who died for him previously, the sacrifice was the only promising thing in his life at that moment. That's how the behelits seem to work, they only activate when they're the only thing that can save you from your suffering. I think he acted pretty understandably, plus everything seems to be working out in mankind's favor. Falconia looks cool as heck, and supposedly Griffith is now some kind of incarnation of collective human desire so I'm sure he'll do right by them.
So you're completely ignoring that whole prophecy about the Hawk of Light and pretend Falconia is happily ever after for humans?
>I've seen ducks rape each other
Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k01DIVDJlY
We'll just have to see. I'm not making any assumptions about what will happen, but so far he's been the best thing to ever happen to humankind.
You're actually a troll, aren't you?
>I think he acted pretty understandably, plus everything seems to be working out in mankind's favor.
Yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaah... About that.
The angel of fucking darkness who came to usher in "THE AGE OF DARKNESS" surely have mankinds survival as his highest priority. You are just like the fucking morons who blindly follow Griffith, sheep looking for a shepherd. They will not be saved, this is 100% certain at this point, unless Miura goes full Kubo and write some shit like :"Griffith made his decisions with mankinds survival in mind".
He is an evil god-like beeing who has had fate woven to make him succeed and he knows this. He knows that if he just does whatever he feels it will work out in his favor. He can't see the future in the sense of actions, he just knows what the future holds, not the road leading there. That is how casuality works, humans have the choices to make the decisions for themselves, but fate has put those people in those certain positions so that the choice they will make seems controlled by some unknown deity.
You have to be a troll when I think about it.
No, why would you think that? I'm not going to make any claims about what will happen in the future of the story, but so far everything he's done since being reincarnated has been very positive.
The Idea of Evil is technically non canon now, but if it gave us any insight into what Miura is planning then Griffith is an incarnation of every human being's repressed desires. They all want a savior and a god, so he's probably not going to do anything that would go against what everyone wants. Plus, he doesn't seem to have lost his own freedom of choice and the last thing he'd want to do is ruin the kingdom he just worked so hard to get. If anything it'd the rest of the Godhand they have to worry about.
You're completely ignoring the fact that Griffith is the villain, as well as the prophecy that claims he will bring an Age of Darkness upon mankind, just like the idiots in the story who fell to his charisma. But you're a real person, with a better perspective than those idiots, you should know better than that. I want to believe you know better than that.
>Griffith is an incarnation of every human being's repressed desires. They all want a savior and a god, so he's probably not going to do anything that would go against what everyone wants.
You give no proof of your claims other than your blind faith in mankinds "good" intentions.
Yeah, you're a troll or 100% retarded, im done with you.
Just because he's the antagonist doesn't really prove anything. Maybe Miura will do a thing where Guts will have to choose between what's best for everyone else and his own need for revenge? And as far as the prophecy goes, you really shouldn't be taking that as gospel. We'll just have to keep open minds and wait for the manga to finish in about never
Are you really this anguished over what somebody else thinks about a chinese comic.
Yep, only baiting.
You aren't really doing a good job of presenting yourself reasonably. I've explained how I feel and why I think Griffith is a pretty well written character with understandable motives. If all you're going to is call everyone with a different perspective a troll you're making yourself look like the one who isn't mature enough to have a conversation.
Alright, I want to understand your view. Why do you think Griffith's actions are good? Why, exactly, was it necessary for him to rape Caska in such a manner as to break her mind?
Nope, im just calling YOU a troll, because like I said earlier, you provide no proof of your claims who originates from the manga that he has good intentions. I have provided proof for my oppinion time and time again, yet you keep ignoring them and preach your silly theory.
On a purely practical side of things, it was the reason he was able to be reborn. In that sense, it was the just the final part of the sacrifice. Without a body to influence the physical world in, all of the people he just branded would have died for nothing. He was sort of obligated to do it whether he wanted to or not.
That being said, I think he probably wasn't in his right mind at the time. He had a lot of pent up regrets and resentment, and his mind has just been transformed to the level of some kind of deity. Overall, I'm not really sure how to feel about Casca's rape. It's definitely the most questionable thing he's done, and I can't relate to it as much as his other decisions.
I didn't really make any claims. I said that even though the Idea of Evil thing has been scrapped, IF it gives us any insight into Miura's thought process then Griffith was at one point planned to be acting as its main agent. The Idea of Evil was basically an entity formed of unexpressed human emotion, meant to give their suffering meaning and and act as a representation of their wishes. If Griffith was acting as the figurehead of that thing, he'd only be doing what mankind collectively wants him to do. But like I said, that's all speculation and technically no longer relevant because Miura pulled that chapter out. You really need to work on how you discuss things with people you disagree with.
>probably wasn't in his right mind at the time
He looked pretty calm to me, and since I read Berserk back when the Idea of Evil was still in there, I think Griffith was perfectly aware of the situation, more so than as a human. You say he needed a body to interact the physical world with, yet he was able to rape Caska to the point of insanity just fine, and I think she was a part of the physical world.
As for the people who died, they never got anything out of it, and ended up in Hell, all because of Griffith's selfishness. They died not because they were willing to, but because he willed it. It wasn't for nothing, I admit, it was for him and him alone. Griffith is a selfish prick with an ego the size of a mountain, on top of being a complete monster with no redeemable qualities.
Eternal suffering? What? You do know that they were just killed and that was it. There's no eternal suffering involved, merely physical death. Heck, they didn't even become fucked up undead like many others do in Berserk. Just regular, clean death.
Everyone who dies with a Brand goes to Hell.
He was able to interact with Casca because they were in the Eclipse. After that was over, he was unable to effect the physical world until Casca's fetus grew into his new body near the end of the Conviction arc.
Griffith didn't just consent to the sacrifice because he wanted to see his dream realized, he did it out of guilt and because he felt like he lost his sense of identity. He wanted to make good on all the lives lost on the countless battlefields beforehand, and prove to himself his dream was more important than Guts. Realizing Guts meant more to him than his dream really rocked his world, and this was his chance to undo all the mistakes he made after that realization. There's a lot more going on with Griffith's character than a desire for power.
That hasn't been proven. We also don't know if there's a difference between heaven or hell, or if a heaven even exists.
It's sad that you're locked into concepts like villain in Berserk of all stories. I mean, it's the very definition of an ambiguous story regarding the morality of acts(our hero Guts is a child murderer for instance). And if there's anything you should know in Berserk, it's that prophecies aren't locked, since free movers exist, thus no prophecy is infallible. Personally I'm assuming the story ends with Guts becoming the Angel of Darkness that will fuck everything up and the world will be a terrible place.
>I personally think that since the Griffith that we all knew, loved, and rooted for in the beginning
You do remember that we knew he was the villain from the beginning, don't you? I know it's been a long time and all but still.
> Griffith's dream is important to many people, not just himself.
Except Griffith was a sociopath?
They did go to hell(or rather, Abyss). There they were killed by demons and their suffering ended. Present proof that they suffered eternally, which isn't either explicitly stated or even implied in the manga.
Casca rape is the most questionable thing he has done? Surely assasinations and branding the hawks is more questionable? After all, it's just rape, which is obviously much lesser than killing.
The Berserk fanbase doesn't seem to be able to come to a consensus on whether or not he's a villain NOW, so I doubt there was one before the Eclipse.
Questionable in the sense that the practical application of raping somebody is much less apparent. It's not really an action I can relate to personally.
Except that everything points towards Guts getting softer and becoming a nicer guy the more time passes, while Griffith remains the villain. You can call the story ambiguous, but it really isn't. The Apostles are evil. The God Hand are evil. Guts, while seemingly evil, is the good guy in this context. You can keep defending your pretty Griffith all you want, in the end, you'll be proven just as mistaken as the people who believe in him in the story. Like the Band of the Hawk.
But he hasn't undone any mistakes, he doesn't even believe he made any mistakes, he created a kingdom after his own desires, and willingly made every sacrifice that got him there. He doesn't do anything for the sake of anyone other than himself, his sick obsession with Guts was just another example of this. He wanted Guts, and there's no way he could accept NOT getting his way.
I think you're assuming the story is going to end the way you want it to. Don't forget all of the good things Griffith is doing for Midland. He saved the princess, united the lands, fought off invaders, lets people interact with the souls of their loved ones before sending them off to the afterlife, turned the world into a fantasy land of elves, fairies and dragons, and is trying to rehabilitate demons and apostles. Griffith has done good things on a grand scale, more so than any other character so far. What will happen next is up to interpretation, but lots of people don't consider Griffith a villain, or even a bad person.
Even the apostles are a mixed bag. Irvin seems pretty chilled out, and Zodd is basically 300 year old Guts. Not all of them are uncontrollable monsters, just the ones Guts has killed so far.
He sold his body to save the lives of his men, and shows genuine affection towards Guts multiple times earlier in the story. He ordered his men back and saved Guts personally from Zodd, putting his own life at risk for 'no reason at all'.
The mistake he believes he's undoing is squandering his opportunity for a kingdom. A lot of people died to get him on the king's good side, and without sacrificing more people that would have been for nothing. He made the sacrifice willingly, but it was because he was between a rock and a hard place.
Once again, I refer you to the prophecy. Do you really believe that a series like Berserk is going to give us some kind of Utopia, and leaving it at that? Shit is going to go down. And the humans will suffer for it.
I don't blame him for killing his soldiers even though I probably wouldn't have gone through with something so awful, I blame him for the things he did after being reborn as Femto. Especially raping Casca.
That's great, but he fucked over himself by squandering his opportunity for a kingdom. You can argue he did it because he was butthurt over Guts leaving him, but that is something that was also his own fault, saying that those under him can never truly be his friends and having him assasinate people (and that kid, THAT KID MANG) was good enough of a reason for Guts to decide that he wanted out.
Also, a lot of people died, but those people met him in battle or at least were opposed to him, do you really think he would've gotten the Band of the Hawk together by saying: Yeah, I might choose to murder you all just to achieve my dream. I don't think so, there's a difference between dying in battle for someone because you believe in their ideals and getting murdered by demons because they decide so.
Has every prophecy in every story ever come true? I have an open mind about what the future of the manga has in store, I refuse to make any claims one way or the other. But I do think that there's room for more than one speculated outcome. You don't seriously think that the prophecy will 100% absolutely come true in the precise way you think it will, do you? Authors play with their audience's expectations all the time. Making an assumption like that would be a little crazy, I think.
The prophecy is ambiguous enough that it can(and knowing Miura, it will) be twisted to a non-obvious meaning. No doubt it will mean nasty shit, but by whom, that remains a question.
He sold his body so he could keep his pawns. If your idea of "geniune shows of affection" is the obsessive desire to own another human being and deciding the way they get to live their life, then you're messed up. He didn't really consciously risk anything while saving Guts, he believed himself destined for greatness, that is he had in-story plot armor.
All those lives were squandered as far as they themselves were concerned, they didn't get anything out of it. Griffith succeeded by sacrificing others, even people who were unwilling to be sacrificed. Do you think those who died prior to the Eclipse would've wanted the Eclipse to happen, just so Griffith could get to live in his own fantasyland?
I guess we have a different view on the character, then. I felt there were a lot of things that showed how genuine Griffith's feelings were for the people under his command. The development with the kid and his broken knight toy was what lead him to sell his body to the old pervert, and he expressed how he couldn't stand being the only one to get his hands dirtied more than once. He went out of his way to save Guts on three occasions, and when asked said he couldn't explain why he felt the need to do that. He had a heavy burden of responsibility for somebody so young, and felt like he had to treat everyone under his command as dispensable. If he didn't, he wouldn't have won a single battle. That's just not how wars are fought. If he went out of his way to help everyone the way he did Guts, even more would have died as a result.
Do you think that Griffith was an actual person who lived through a childhood to become what he is, or was he fabricated at some point by the Idea of Evil and false memories implanted on him? Or something else?
I think he was probably an ordinary person who had the circumstances around him manipulated. It's hard to say with that kind of thing, though, and supposedly everyone's a slave to causality in the end.
So you really don't see how Griffith is a monster, for whom everyone and everything is a means to an end? In my view, he is too self-centered to feel actual love or affection, only what fits the role he is living, in life he acted according to the fantasy he created in his head, and he never failed, because it was his destiny not to. When he became Femto, all of his fantasies were realized. He really is just a child, on an emotional level. And then there's his sick relationship to Guts, the first toy that didn't do what it was supposed to. Now even Griffith has gotten what he wanted; Guts is actively seeking him out, almost constantly thinking of him every waking moment, living for him and him alone. Isn't this what Griffith always wanted of him? Don't you see this?
Griffith sympathizers deserve to be branded and suffer for an eternity in hell.
Blind sheep following their prophet to the ends of the earth.
God is real, and you will live forever in paradise if you just keep your mouth shut if you live in poverty and are beeing taken advantage off. It's not like humans are lying or anything. I mean, Griffith is saving mankind GUYS, just look at all the good deeds he has done!! He is not the kind of man that decieves people!!
I see your points but don't agree. I think there's enough in the Golden Arc that shows Griffith as a genuinely affectionate person, with genuine concerns for the well being of his men. Being in command of other people during a war gives you a lot to think about, and if you let yourself get distracted with the potential loss of life you may end up losing more than necessary. His relationship with Guts wasn't sick, it was just that Guts was the only person he felt comfortable opening up to. When Guts left without explaining how he felt to Griffith, it left him with a lot of questions. He didn't handle them well, but that's what tragedies are all about.
I don't think Griffith knew that raping Casca would eventually give him a body. He did it to punish Casca and Guts.
I don't understand why you have such an emotional investment in what other people think about a character in a manga. You aren't acting like an adult, and you're making people who dislike Griffith look bad. You're creating an environment where most of the posts defending him are open minded and well reasoned, while most posts against him are by people who just spew bile and hatred all over their keyboards while refusing to listen to anything other people have to say. You aren't contributing to the discussion with a post like that, you're just bringing it down a level.
This so much. There really is no reasoning with people of faith. They believe in Griffith, probably will until he brings about the Age of Darkness, and then they'll claim the midlanders deserved it.
There really is no reasoning with people of faith. They believe in Guts, probably will until he brings about the Age of Darkness, and then they'll claim Griffith deserved it.
Go smoke a bowl, liberal hippie scum.
Wow you really showed those Griffith apologists the difference between right and wrong. You really are a paragon of virtue and compassion.
>You really are a paragon of virtue and compassion.
As much as Griffith I would say.
There are well thought out posts both in defense and persecution of Griffith in this thread. The only blind people here are those who are so wrapped up in their own perspective they refuse to see anything else.
Griffith isn't a real person. If you're getting angry over mangos you need to reconsider what you're doing right now.
You keep saying that im angry.
You need to learn more about human emotions.
There is a difference between anger and the feeling of hopelessness, which I feel for you.
Not anger. It's sympathy really.
But for a Griffith apologist this is just a word you cannot comprehend.
>"Oh, i'm gonna fuck up everything now!"
>Guts saves him
>"Guess i'm gonna sacrifice everyone because i'm better"
Nah, Griffith is basically THAT guy.
Disregarding your attempt at being clever (Guts doesn't fit in with the prophecy, you know), nobody here is arguing for Guts being the personification of perfection, who can do no wrong, unlike Griffith apologists.
Whatever it is you feel strongly about, it's blinding you to reality. Nobody in their right mind posts the way you do about a comic.
>Having feelings about your hobby is bad.
Yes, I like manga and anime and they make me feel things.
I've long forgotten how it was to be an apathetic teenager and have realized feelings are not the enemy.
Everyone who is on this board has feelings towards anime & manga, their waifu or best girl.
Why are you even here if you are so "normal and adjusted"?
Griffith wanted to own and control Guts, as shown by him throwing a hissy fit when Guts decided to leave. Griffith is, as I said before, emotionally on the level of a child. He had designated Guts a role, just like he did for himself, and everybody else, and Guts, and only Guts, didn't play along. But now he does. It's his destiny to do so.
This anon has his head screwed on the right way.
There's a difference between being passionate about something and letting that passion blind you. I'm reading and posting in this thread because I'm passionate about Berserk. What I'm not doing is claiming that everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and should be tortured for eternity. You really need to learn how to bend in the wind, because you're acting worse than the character you hate so much.
I, on the other hand, am all up for civilized discussion. Can you explain to me why Griffith isn't as bad as all the other monsters, like Ganishka or any random Apostle?
>There's a difference between being passionate about something and letting that passion blind you.
This is ironic comming from a person who claims a demonic angel, who is evil incarnate, is comming to earth to save mankind.
You are just digging deeper and deeper man.
>Guts and Griffith will never have heterosexual good times again
>sacrificing all of the soldiers who stayed loyal to you from the very beginning and raping your best friend's girlfriend
He did nothing wrong!
I guess we just disagree on fundamental things then. That wasn't how I saw Griffith before the eclipse at all.
Why does little Griff have a mullet
Because he is... beautiful!
We can dream.
A man that betrays is friends is worse than trash
So... when he says he WANTS Guts and pretty much forces him to join, what did you see? When he attacked Guts for not going along with his wishes, what did you see?
This is what I mean. You're so obsessed over your hatred of a fictional character that you're jumping at shadows. I'm not even defending Griffith, I'm just telling you to cool off because you're posting like a crazy person. Nobody is going to want to discuss anything with you if all you do is fervently claim they're wrong without listening. Discussions are not screaming matches.
A person who deals with grief poorly. If Guts was just another tool I don't think he would have risked his life for him so many times, and I don't think he would have reacted to him leaving so irrationally. There was a lot that seemed to indicate that Guts meant as much as or more to him than his dream of a kingdom.
Did you skip some pages or something?
He doesn't care if he kills Guts, because of he cant have him, noone else can have him.
That's part of him dealing with grief poorly. People who aren't emotionally distraught rarely say something like "If I can't have him no one will!". That was just his initial reaction to his closest friend trying to leave without telling him. It was pretty immature, but I still feel sympathy for him in that situation.
Because he's cute as heck
If you're going to defend Griffith, there's something you need to understand about him, and that is his destiny. Griffith believed he was destined for greatness, which was his justification for his dream. He believed it was his destiny, and therefore saving Guts wasn't him risking his life, it was him fulfilling his destiny by acting heroic. You actually have a little too simplistic a view of him, taking his words and actions at face value, thus falling to his charisma, just like the people in the story. I've pointed out several times how Griffith is essentially living out a fantasy, a fantasy that has become reality.This isn't seen by the characters in the story, but I think it should be seen by the readers, and I'm flabbergasted when they don't. I guess Griffith's charm goes right through the 4th wall....
you are arguing with a apostle brother, .
griffin could rape cascaor sacrifice again and this nigga would still want us to feel sympathy for griffin
It's not the sympathy I have a problem with, Griffith went through a lot shit and I can sympathize, but I can't understand how people can defend and praise him like they do.
A mans love for another man is no joking matter.
I don't think we're going to make any headway in this conversation. We have fundamentally different ideas about this character's true intentions, like I said earlier. Just like how you say you're flabbergasted that people don't see that everything he did was a ruse, I'm a little surprised other people don't see the internal conflict Griffith was faced with. He had a dream he wanted to achieve, and was surrounded by friends who were cheering him on and who benefited from his pursuit of this dream. They all had a significant improvement in quality of life after joining him. Lots of people died for him, and it really rattled his cage, but he had to put on an icy facade so he could continue to lead his men properly. Guts was the only person who he could reveal his emotions to, and when he left it caused Griffith to act irrationally. I also think he felt obligated to make good on the lives he spent trying to reach his dream. I'm afraid we aren't going to come to an agreement on the things that are mostly up to interpretation.
if you mean brotherly love, then i agree
anything else is perverted griffin
Their love is pure.
I'm not saying everything he did was a ruse, I'm saying he's so deluded he think he is what you believe him to be
I'm also not saying the conflict isn't there, it's pretty obvious, but once again, you need to look deeper. It's not the real Griffith facing the dilemmas, it's the Griffith he think he is. I know this sounds weird, but I definitely think of Griffith as monstrous man-child, who THINKS he is this gallant figure, and because he believes it, so do others, a liar is more convincing if they believe themselves.
As for not making any headway, I'm not really trying to get you to change your mind, I just find this entertaining. Debates are extremely amusing to me, can't think of a better game. It would be nice if someone got what I was getting at, though.
Well he did have a choice, either let everyone who died for him die for nothing, or give all the remaining lives of his friend to assure he got his dream and then some.
I imagine being mute and crippled helped to make it an easier decision.
>die for nothing
I don't think the people who died cared at that point, and I definitely don't think they would've wanted their comrades to die like that so Griffith could become a demigod.
I agree that debates are great, and I've enjoyed this conversation a lot so far too. But it seems like we've found the root of where we feel differently, so there's not a whole lot left to discuss. I think I understand where you're coming from better now, with the thing about Griffith fooling himself along with everyone else, although I still believe that's more a matter of perspective rather than Miura's true intent lined into the story.
>Griffith is an incarnation of every human being's repressed desires
It helps that Evil (in form of causality controlled by otherworldly malevolent forces like the God Hand) put this desire into the collective dreams of mankind.
I know exactly what you're saying and I agree with you.
What you are saying is that he has "two personalities" one who he never shows to anyone, not even himself, the one who will keep on piling corpses to reach his dream. The other is the charming gallant knight he acts.
Once he becomes Femto he completly disregard the gallant one, and takes on his true self, as seen when he rides away from Guts ontop of Zodd. He said "You should have known this was the kind of man I was. You of all people".
He was scared everyone would leave him if they knew about his true self.
He was driven by jealousy and resentment. Why do you think he raped Caska? Because he was jealous that Guts suddenly had everything and he had nothing, and that was his revenge. It was his fault everything fell apart to begin with, anyway.
>Present proof that they suffered eternally, which isn't either explicitly stated or even implied in the manga.
Nah, you don't suffer for eternity. You cease existing after dissolving slowly in the maelstrom of souls. You'll meet all the guys there whom you wronged. It will be a blast.
The world is totally awesome now. Full of rape trolls and rape dragons and rape harpies and rape skeletons and rape goblins and rape hydras and rape giants.
At least with Kushans, they could only torture and kill you, or make you their slaves, and rape your women.
All those D&D monsters don't give a damn about slaves.
B-but Griffith also brought Unicorns man, the world is certainly a better place now.
All hail Jes- I mean Griffith!
Well, our disagreement still has one soil ht may prove to be fruitful, that is, whether or not Griffith's actions are justified, and I don't think they are, as I think he is a deluded manchild. You however defend him, and while I see that his actions seem justified in the context of his goal, why is his goal acceptable to you?
That world does seem pretty rad though. Don't forget it also introduced fairies, unicorns, dwarves and every other fantasy mankind dared to dream up. Assuming (big assumption) that everyone has a safe place to go to at the end of the day like Falconia, I'd totally want to live there.
>You shoul have known this was the kind of man I was. You of all people
That was said better than I could have hoped. Had I remembered that...
All the unicorns got eaten by hydras (or the Yamata no Orochi). No more pretty unicorns.
of course you do zodd
>The second coming of Griffith is similar to what would happen if Jesus returned to us
Please stay dead, Jesus.
Y-yamata no Orochi?
Fairies and dwarves could already interact with humans before the merging of worlds.
I'm sure that mankind would have preferred elf lolis only instead of man-eating goblins.
This is a Christian image board, anon-kun...
I guess that depends on whether or not you mean the goal that led him to make the sacrifice, or the goal he's working towards after the sacrifice. I think actually choosing the sacrifice was something he did out of sorrow more than cold reasoning. It doesn't really follow the normal guidelines of 'does the end justify the means' because I feel he was thinking more about the decision itself than the result of the decision. I think two factors that really spurred him on were his desire to make the deaths of his men worthwhile, and his need to reclaim his sense of self. Realizing that Guts made his dream look unimportant took the wind right out of his sails because that dream was how he defined himself for a large part of his life. His choice between killing Guts and achieving his dream or giving it all up and living an ordinary life as a cripple was like choosing between his old sense of self and something new and terrifying. He chose the familiar path, and that's something I can't fault him for. Wanting to reclaim your old identity is something I can relate to pretty strongly.
As for his future goals after becoming a member of the Godhand, I think he's acted in a purely benevolent way so far. He appears to want the best for humanity, and everyone seems pretty happy with him as a ruler. Whether or not he'll continue acting this way is a question I won't even try to answer, because it could go either way at this point.
So could trolls and ogres. It was just very limited in both cases before the boundaries got ruined.
Trolls and ogres were after Griffith returned, but before the merging of the worlds. Femto's rebirth as newGriffith caused creaks between the worlds. Pixies (like Puck) seem to have already been around before.
No, I meant whether or not he was justified in wanting a kingdom in the first place, and therefore trampling on all those lives he did as he made his way towards it. His intentions now that he has all that are a mystery, so we should stick with what we know of. Do you think it was right for Griffith to set himself up as a future king, and then pave that road with the corpses of others? By what right did he set out to do this?
There were rumors of trolls and ogres for years and years before any of that, just like there were rumors of elves and fairies.
>acting purely benevolent
Of course he is, everything's going his way, he won't do anything bad until someone breaks the rules of his little fantasy. He reminds me of Peter Pan, actually.
Those rumors existed in real life too, and there weren't any trolls or ogres rummaging in the woods here...
When he was still a mortal man, the only right he had was that might makes right.
Now that he is the Dark Angel of the Revelations gliding on wings of pure darkness, the morals and rules of mankind do not apply to him anymore. As a being of pure Evil, he needs no right or legitimization anymore. Now, he follows his own desires. His will is evil, and evil is with him.
Before, he was a wannabe-warlord who killed, fucked, and seduced his way to power.
Now, he is an unfathomable being playing as a wannabe-warlord, like a person playing an MMORPG with cheat codes activated by the dickish developers of the game.
That's a pretty interesting question, and one that I don't see addressed very often. I guess there's a lot to ask, like whether or not we choose our dreams. There's also the question of whether or not it's the journey or the destination. Everyone who followed Griffith during the Golden Age did so because they wanted to. Their lives were improved and enriched substantially. His cause gave them purpose, and while they knew they could die fighting for it they were content to keep fighting. Maybe he didn't consider the way he'd have to pile up corpses to reach his dream, and by the time he did it became a self justifying circle. More sacrifices to make the previous sacrifices worthwhile, until the goal is finally reached. I think during the Golden Age his actions were mostly positive, and even if his dream did cause people to die it also gave them a reason to live, and continue fighting.
And there aren't any fairies or elves either. Did you miss the part where the Berserk universe is partially connected to the human gestalt?
Pixies and fairies existed before. Dwarves mined the mine where Goddot got his iron and where Casca was locked up for a few years, and fairies like Puck were being annoying to people and handing out fairy dust (which healed Guts during the 100 years wars before Guts and Puck even meet), as well as that flower fairy during Guts's adolescence.
Maybe there were, and they have just died out because we stopped believing in them?
And trolls occasionally killed and ate somebody who wandered around in the forest for too long. Every fantasy creature in Berserk already existed in a different plane, it just rarely aligned with the physical world.
Trolls in real life were just exaggerated heathens wearing furs and not believing in Christianity.
So were fairies.
It is explained in the manga.
That spirits and shit used to be acknowledged by the masses, and they could be seen because people believed in them. But the current deity just spread falsehoods and lies in it search for control which lead people to no longer belieave in things like fairies and shit. If they did they became branded as heretics and tortured to death by a ruthless inquisition.
When peoples beliefs in such things diminished, so did their appearance.
he fucked a old man
Squealer did nothing wrong.
But giving people a reason to fight and improving quality of right does not negate their deaths. Human life has more value to me than it did to people in the middle ages, or whenever Berserk is set.
The issue of whether Griffith chose to pursue his dream is tricky. Berserk seems to have as it's theme that people are driven by fate, but still, people have to make their own decisions. I don't think we can just say that it was "fate" and let Griffith, or anyone else for that matter, get away with atrocities. The fact remains that Griffith, a commoner, yearned to become a king, believed it was his destiny, believed he was right in doing so, and gathered up people who were willing to support him, even die for him, and I don't think he had the right to lead these people to their deaths for what was ultimately his own benefit. Maybe he did make them happy for a while, but it was not his goal, and his goal was what mattered to him, not the means by which he got there. Someone posted a nice quote from Griffith here:
>you should have known this was the kind of man I was. You of all people.
I think that perfectly captures it; the Band was ever a tool to him, and he did not regret anything, not even the Eclipse.
A lot of the folklore here in Denmark cannot be explained by "some crazy furfag in the woods".
No one ever claimed he did.
Share with us?
That's what you crazy furfags in the woods want to make us believe.
In a way I think it does a lot to negate the impact of their deaths. Everyone dies eventually. Feeling like you're fighting for a cause does a lot to cover up that harsh truth. Whether or not it's better to live aimlessly for a long time or die young for something you believe in is entirely personal, but I think longevity isn't the only measure for life. Quality is at least half of the equation, and that's what Griffith always fought for, for both himself and his men.
Alright, let me bring out a few.
In Danish a nightmare is called "mareridt". The creature called a "mare" would come during the night and ride a poor guy. This would give him bad dreams, and suck out all of his energy the next day. (It's sort of similar to a succubus). When it rode you during the night, it would take the shape of a beautiful woman. You would be able to keep this beautiful woman without getting your energy sucked out, if (and only if) you discovered the hole she went through to enter your bedroom. If it was closed during the night, she would be trapped with you. The only way she would ever be able to leave you, would be if you would ever show her the hole she had entered through. The creature could also affect your animals, but instead of taking the shape of a woman, it could be a pin in the mane of your horse or whatever.
There was a three-legged lamb that would dance around during the night. Sometimes it would dance outside a house, and a person who lived there would soon turn up dead. If the lamb suddenly started dancing around you, you were going to die as well.
Bonus: Back in the middle ages when people sneezed, we used to say "gid det må gavne.", which roughly translates to "may it be beneficial". The reason why people said that, was that it was believed that Satan sat with his great book and read names out loud. When he reached your name, you would sneeze.
Extra bonus, which can be explained with ugly insane women. "Slattenpatten" (saggytits) was a big troll-like female creature in the woods. It would lumber around, minding it's own business. It has a hairy back, and long tits hanging below its knees. If someone were to startle it, the beast would throw a tit over each shoulder and run like hell.
The first one sounds like somebody was horny. The second is... weird enough.
The third isn't danish, that's been around everywhere.
That last one is kinda funny.
Well, something's rotten in the state of Denmark...
But the interesting question is, did Griffith make his followers happy because he loved them, or because it made them more loyal and efficient?
I think he believed he was the benevolent leader people saw him as, while his destiny, being success, required his men to be efficient and loyal, and it couldn't have been accomplished in any other way.
>The third isn't danish, that's been around everywhere.
A lot of shit has probably spread around in Europe, that one included.
Yeah he did.
What he did, however, was completely in character and was the logical culmination of everything leading up to that point. All that time he'd been working his way towards his dream on the backs of his soldiers. Every soldier, whether they were strong or weak, whether they lived or died on the battlefield, was a step toward his ultimate goal. They willingly jumped on the Griffith bandwagon hoping to ride the big wave of his success to accomplish their own personal goals and each of the Hawks understood that in doing so, they were tying their fates to Griffith's. This is especially true of the ones who remained with the Hawks even after Griffith's capture, fighting on faith alone. This should give you an idea of how important Griffith's dream was to them, that they would refuse to let go of their beliefs to the exclusion of reality. They were completely invested in this larger than life figure. To them Griffith was more than a soldier, more than a mere man. He was their guiding star.
This feeling goes both ways. Griffith may not have considered his Hawks friends or even equals, but his Band of the Hawk was his greatest treasure. It may be hard to understand, but as a whole he loved the Band as much as any one person could love another. Guts especially was his favorite, but it wasn't just him. As he chased his kingdom, his ragtag little band, his toy soldiers that followed him, meant everything to him. To the point where he was a crazy possessive fuck that wasn't willing to let any of them go.
Griffith is arrogant as all hell. He needs perfect troops for his perfect image.
>You will never see Griffith, Cao Cao, and Oda Nobunaga team up
I know that. My opponent however, may not realize it.
So on the one hand, these men are the primary people that were willing to give all of themselves for the sake of Griffith's dream. That is what they signed up for. They believed in him, that they were serving a purpose greater than themselves. On the other hand, sacrificing them wasn't an easy thing for Griffith to do, either. As he fully intended to elevate his Hawks to glory right along with him. That's ultimately what everyone, Griffith and the Hawks, wanted and believed would happen.
Sadly, with nowhere left to go, he was given one last choice. Cash in all the chips that were the lives of his Band and be given everything he'd gathered them to try and obtain. To Griffith, it was the only way they could still fulfill their original purpose, and was a simple decision if you look at it that way. Even then, it wasn't a decision he made lightly.
Not saying it wasn't fucked up, but it made perfect sense in a brutal, fucked up, evil sort of way. That's why I like his character and don't think he needs any apologies. He'll get whats coming to him eventually, but as a character he's top notch. Probably the best written character in all of Berserk.
>But the interesting question is, did Griffith make his followers happy because he loved them, or because it made them more loyal and efficient?
The latter, without a doubt. In the manga we see him reading alot of books whe he was in the capital of Midland. When he asked Guts to go kill the brother of the king, he was reading all kinds of books oh philosophy and shit. He knew what it ment to be a good leader, and he acted as such. Not out of love for his troops, but out of the beneficial effects it would have on their morale.
He was a clever motherfucker who knew this, no doubt.
Slattenpatten sounds like /cgl/.
>This should give you an idea of how important Griffith's dream was to them
On another note, it shows that some of the hawks were interested in having Griffith back, as a person. Casca, for example, and Guts. They didn't want to ride in Griffith's wake. They wanted their friend back.
When's the next movie out?
Of course he was, he used to be a street urchin.
This anon gets it.
I think he genuinely cared. He put himself through a lot to keep them safe, and seemed pretty heartbroken when they died. If anything, I think it was the other way around. He cared TOO much, and had to force himself to appear calm and collected, suppressing the pain of losing his friends and followers.
The inner circle are noteworthy exceptions. I was speaking more in terms of the Band of the Hawk as a whole. There's a reason why the inner circle folks wanted to hide Griffith's condition from the bulk of the remaining troops. They knew it was over and were just glad to have Griffith back and safe because they were the closest to him as a person. The vast majority of them, though, didn't see Griffith as some cool guy they liked hanging with. He was more like a living legend...and that legend was as dead as if Guts and co. had found his bleached bones. "Their Griffith" was gone forever.
>Plus there's that whole wheels of causality thing that brings into question whether or not he can even be held responsible.
He can. Slug Count proved that it's possible to defy fate. It's the Apostle/Godhand's choice in the end.
...which is why he seemed so hesitant to rape Casca while Guts watched as those who had been close to him were devoured alive by monsters. Why would he have pretended to be cool and collected when he did that?
That scene is pretty interesting because it shows the two different ways Griffith could be portrayed. Griffith took special care to ASK Guts to perform the assassination, something he had never done before on the battlefield. Some people would say it was because he genuinely respected Guts, and wanted to be sure he was alright with performing a dirty deed, and others would say Griffith only asked to make it seemed like he cared, and to give Guts the feeling that his task was important. In the end I think it's a matter of personal viewpoint, and I think this is the area where most people tend to disagree about Griffith.
I think it's a mix of both. I do think that he gave more of a fuck about his troops than a lot of people give him credit for, but not to the point where he'd have ever compromised his ultimate goal for the sake of any one of them. Barring Guts, who just shattered him. He got way too close to that one.
On the other hand, he was a very cold and calculating individual who would do anything to win. That includes use his own soldiers as pawns and be an unfeeling bastard who'll cast aside anyone that is no longer useful.
The band really was the most important thing to him though. Whatever his twisted love for them entailed, it definitely was some form of love. He wouldn't have branded every single one of them as his sacrifice otherwise.
His head really is the size of a beach ball
Not that anon, but I don't think Femto's actions can be attributed to Griffith. There seems to be some kind of editation of the Apostle/Godhand's personality which makes them willing to commit atrocities.
The discussion so far has mostly been restricted to the Golden Age. Things get hazy in the Eclipse, and Femto could ever be considered a separate character.
And that is what makes him so evil. That he held them so dear, and still he did it.
Yes, there's is something that makes them more willing to commit atrocities; the power to get away with it. Like Light with his Death Note.
The final decision was his, but the events leading up to it were specifically tailored to put him in a frame of mind where he would be willing to make that kind of sacrifice. Whether or not that's a real choice or a pseudo choice is up to debate.
He had already become Femto at that point and could very likely SEE THE FUUUUTUUURE. It was all part of his master plan to regain a suitable mortal host after being risen to Godhand. Considering how it worked out, I'm pretty sure that's the main reason.
The other reason that jumps out at me is seething jealousy and rage. He saw Guts taking something away from him and, being the kind of guy that he is, made a really fucking big deal about taking it back.
That girl had a crush on him for the longest time, he was her hero, her knight on a white horse. Not only was he a fucking cripple but his chocolate warrior princess was all up ons the guy that kinda drove him to this state to begin with? Aw hell no, God powers activate it's time to remind some bitches who I am.
Doesn't mean he doesn't care about them. Quite the opposite. Petty temper tantrum shit like that, as opposed to being cool and collected all the time, is the reason why he got fucked up in the first place. He cared TOO MUCH.
What does Griffith's boypussy feel like?
I think it's more than that. These lines seems to imply the Count's personality was modified in some way, to where the betrayal of his wife would no longer bother him.
Ask that lord that fucked him.
It's to die for, anon.
People tend to forget Griffith took a dick for his men.
If that's not caring, I don't know what is.
Noone can see the future in Berserk, maybe the only exception is The Idea of Evil.
The way casuality works in Berserk isnt by "controlling" the actions of people, but to put right people in right situations. It is like you said, Griffith would probably not have sacrificed all his troops if he wasnt tortured and had everything taken from him. But thats how casuality works, Guts made his decision to leave, this made Griffith spiral and make the decisions he made.
The future they see are events, like the eclipse and the tower of convction, they do not know the way it will happen or how.
Griffith only knew that fate was woven for it to happen if he did what he felt like, fate was woven in such a manner that the choices that felt natural for him to take would lead to the events that unfolded.
He didn't know Caska was pregnant, she didn't tell anyone. It was casuality that he wanted to rape her, and that she was carrying a child at the time.
Remember, The Idea of Evil only told Griffith one thing; "Do as you please, your will is mine".
You know he loved it
Are people forgetting the God Hand completely manipulated him during his dream sequence?
Or Guts and Griffith's interactions during the the Black Dog Knight arc?
Fuck the movies and TV series for making Griffith look fucking bitter towards Guts by the time the Eclipse happened.
Griffith wanted to kill himself because he became a shell of his former self and couldn't do anything or help anyone.
Fucking blame the God Hand for taking advantage of him.
Griffith of course went along with it, but /a/ solely putting the blame on him is utter bullshit.
Damn dude I always feel bad for that guy. I mean imagine you just walking in where your wife is being gang banged by people you've spent your entire life trying to destroy. shit man
It's not that his personality was changed, it's that he was allowed to indulge in his wickedness without any consequence; he would no longer be human, so there would be no need to feel guilt, morality could be discarded as he would be above such petty things.
If showers were invented, he'd been taking a rape shower.
The Godhand members have a near perfect view of the future. Skull Knight says that a bunch of times, and it's proven when Griffith's widespread dream warns all the people in the Kushan prison to cover their bars with their sheets. The only way Griffith would have known to tell them that was if he knew the Kushan king would jump into that big organ hot air balloon thing.
He did take a rape bath anon.
His personality was twisted, but he was still the same person deep down. That's why he couldn't sacrifice his daughter and become a...a...double apostle!
But yes, the big thing about apostles is that they may seem so far above humanity in terms of power and resilience, but the reason they are that way is because they were too weak and couldn't handle being human. They just couldn't carry the weight and instead chose to throw it all away.
It almost reminds me of what Alucard said Anderson in Hellsing.
For real, man. Just seeing that scene hurt me.
On a related note; how are the Berserk doujins? I expect plenty of GutsXGriffith
My point, but rape shower is a more recognizable term.
Boy was Alucard bummed out about that.
Whats to say this was Griffiths doing? Wasn't this all conveyed to them through a dream?
The one who spread the prophecy of the hawk of light in their dreams surely werent Griffith, but The Idea of Evil. I don't think the God Hand has such a power, only a god would have that.
All of the things that happens to Griffith is a result of his actions in a world where those very actions will work out for him, because thats how casualty was woven.
I thought it was just going to be that they regenerated him
Is it wrong that I fapped to the troll scenes? Because I did and still do to this day.
Perhaps, but then there's also no reason to say the Idea of Evil couldn't have just told Griffith he needed to rape Casca in order to get a new body in the same way it spread the dream to humans.
Okay, maybe he didn't see the future literally, but considering how things worked out he at the very least had some idea of how everything would work out. Godhand cannot fully advent without a suitable shell. By tainting Guts and Casca's son with his Godspackle, he set into motion a chain of events which eventually gave him the best possible vessel for his reincarnation.
>There will never be more animated Berserk
>Mr. Bones wild boat ride will never end in the manga
Eh, we're all weirdos here. I fap to de Sade, myself...
We're either getting a continuation of the movie trilogy or a continuation the anime.
But we saw the whole interaction between Griffith and The Idea of Evil, and no such things were said. The Idea of Evil knew he would rape Caska, it was not needed to tell him.
I believe the God Hand sees the results, not the actions. He probably knew he would take on the body of a child in that egg, but he didn't know whose. So if he just did what he felt like, he knew it would work out for him. Which is why he is the way he is now, he just stands wherever he wants and he knows no arrows will hit him, because it's not fate for him to die by a stray arrow or some shit like that. If he is going to die by the hands of Guts he probably knows this allready, but he has no idea how, or the events leading up to his demise.
Not to mention new chapter(s) this year.
>making Griffith look fucking bitter towards Guts by the time the Eclipse happened.
But he was. Doesn't invalidate the other stuff you said, but the manipulation, his despair, his positive feelings, they were all merely a part of it. His jealousy, his resentment, his ruthless ambition; these were also a large part of what happened.
You shouldn't leave anything out or marginalize certain aspects in favor of others. It's an insult to the breadth of the character. Ubiq did a good job egging him on, but the decision was ultimately Griffith's to make and he made the decision that was in keeping with everything we knew about Griffith up to that point.
Griffith wasn't some unthinking pawn that got tricked by a clever spirit. All the Godhand did was appeal to what was already there. Which is probably why the Crimson Behelit came into his possession in the first place. That's just the kind of guy he was.
Don't get my hopes up, you tempter!
Miura said he's going off hiatus this year, man.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I want to be the sacrifice!!
No, no, you're too hard a worker, the village needs you, I'll do it instead!
We can't afford to lose a man with such excellent judgement, I will go in your stead.
Best scene in the whole game.
You do understand Guts on several occasions denied fate. Like straight up denied it. He was suppose to die, several times, he was about to summon the God hand several times. But guess what he didn't because he isn't a bitch like Griffith. With that being said Griffith is still one of my favorite villain characters of all time.
you do realize people aren't actually supposed to be able to oppose fate?
Skull Knight should get most of the credit for all of that. I'm not even sure if he's human, or bound to fate like everyone else.
But this just proves that fate in the Berserk universe is based upon the prediction of peoples choices. The choice is theirs, but if they chose according to fates prediction, the result is sealed.
Yeah, but only Guts is actually able to do that.
Nah, see snailman in the first volumes.
Void even makes a note that "The threads of casuality has been denied".
Well with the body Griffith had after Guts and crew found him was him he was unable to attain his dream. The fuck was Griffith able to do at that point besides rely on the AMAZING medicine they had at the time. I also doubt there would be magic strong enough to full heal his body back.
>I think you're assuming the story is going to end
You should have stopped after this
Griffith's main problem is that he came to care too much about Guts. Despite his credo of not treating his followers as friends, Guts was the exception to that mantra and the chink in his armor. He cared about him as a person, to the point where he'd even risk his own life to save him. No single soldier, no matter how skilled, should warrant that.
Few remember that he ran in to challenge an unknown but incredibly powerful opponent to ensure the safety of a single soldier. His life very well could have ended then, along with all his ambitions and dreams, but for the threads of fate which bound him to his role as a member of Godhand.
Griffith even had a bad feeling about it, and knew that it would be risky, but he charged in alone anyway. That was a dumb move for a leader to make. In that moment he tossed aside his own goals for the sake of one person.
Then, the loss of that person drove him to such emotion that he basically ripped up all his plans in a huge fit. Griffith has a lot more human weakness and vulnerability than people give him credit for. It always sorta bothers me when people call him a Mary Sue. He's come a long way as a character, through ups and downs.
That's why I said he is probably one of my favorite villains of all time.
It's not like they had elf dust that heals all wounds right?
I like the fact that Griffith and Guts are juxtaposition ed as foil characters. Inside Guts really cares about people especially people weaker than him like women and children. I mean he failed to kill Rosaline like 3 times. One of the times instead of getting a point blank shot to her face, he shot her in the stomach. At that point he was struggling within his own inner demon.
Griffith, while being incredibly charismatic and caring to people on the outside, on the inside would be willing to throw people's lives away on the whim if it was part of his dream.
Also to people saying Griffith didn't care at the reunion on the hill of swords did you ever notice how Griffith came to the hill to see if anything would sway him. He said there wasn't anything that would, but when Guts was fighting the feeling of the Fetus was unfreezing his heart. It was weird, he then proceeded to save Casca and leave. Maybe he was not sure if Guts could Sway him again which he may have been able to.
Now in the story Guts has forgotten his obsession with Griffith and is going to the Elf island. He's trying to live in peace now, but I think something will bring him back to Fantasia. We don't know what it will be but something will happen and Guts will come back midland/fantasia. I just couldn't see this story ending with Griffith getting his kingdom and living out peacefully with his inhabitants and pet apostles while Guts just chills back on the island with Casca drinking coconuts, but it doesn't seem like a bad ending.
I want a Monster Hunter styled Berserk game with it being 24/7 Greatsword plus the ability to upgrade your arm cannon and shit.
That'd be fun.
But /a/non there is a game like that
Jesus, Guts looks 55 in this picture.
Can't wait to wear a black coat and armor in number 2.
Pixie dust seems to only stop bleeding and the pain and perhaps accelerate the healing process, but it doesn't look like it would give Griffith back his tongue and his ability to move again.
Killer Bambi has really nice art. Also femmeboy on top.
It was said to cure all alignments.
It's going to be amazing.
>unable to attain his dream
Well, there was still a significant chance of success in midland. The princess still hung from his dick, he had a small army on hand, and, as shown by the people who handed food to him, the adoration of the entire country. Granted, it would have been a shit fuck fest, but he stood a fair chance of claiming the throne
Where is Griffith though in the picture? Are people really gonna cheer for a sack of bones who's permanently got his helmet stuck on?
>as shown by the people who handed food to him, the adoration of the entire country.
Too bad he didnt have the admiration of the people pouring his drinks.
>Griffith did nothing wrong!
actually you are right since G is not Femto
think of G like a Saint Seiya god vessel (shion, kaori)
well they were cheering, or at least accepting, a king that looked like a corpse for the last years of his life, so maybe...
Granted, I know Femto was much more appealing from his point of view, just saying he wasn't completely irredeemably fucked without it
I wonder what his face looked like. When they removed the helm they were all really shocked.
Took away his nose, cut off his ears, no eyebrows for sure.
I really wonder now...
>no eyebrows for sure
Doubt it would be able to regrow all the muscles that were cut from Griffith.
Griffith could have died like a bitch during the Eclipse the way that slug Apostle did in volume 3. Causality comes into play but in the end Griffith made the choice to sacrifice everyone.
The four angels knew that Griffith could right then and there say no, so they had to show him illusions and convince him to offer them. Griffith was still undecided up until the last minute when he saw Guts. It could have gone either way without the interference of the angels.
If they were to meet again and Guts were to just ignore him, could that possibly make Griffith angry?
And because of the nature of God's power, could the absence of people in the world who blame evil on Griffith somehow affect him?
He can be. He just needs the right motivation.
>If they were to meet again and Guts were to just ignore him
I am 99% sure that would fuck with Griffith immensely. His possessive nature would reawaken with an intensity only a Godlike entity can muster.
Yeah and Guts didn't do anything wrong, either!
It's not rape if she doesn't know how to say no.
Man, the guy got it easy. I mean, wouldn't YOU do the same thing if you saw your girl banging with a bunch of niggers? Killing a shitty slut in exchange for great power sounds too good to be true. Even if you loved her at some point.
I fapped to this whole scene.
Well you make it sound easy, but that's because you aren't in love with that crazy dick ravenous bitch.
She could never be just "some shitty slut" to the Count. No matter how far she'd strayed, no matter how much he may have tried to convince himself he didn't need her, he couldn't get away from it. That was the love of his life and she broke his heart. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) for him it's not that easy to stop loving someone just because they hurt you.
Then he became a grotesque monster that fed on the pain and misery he inflicted on everyone else. Sadly there was probably just enough left of the old him, as demonstrated by his final choice, that even his new existence was just another Hell that he was trying to bury. What a sad, sad little man.
But for his daughter he could be strong.
I surmise that all of the apostles have pathetic stories like that hidden away somewhere, because they are the most pathetic and the weakest people.
I was wondering: Griffith has gathered many apostles to serve as his vanguard, yes? How many do you suppose are true apostles, and how many are simply apostle-spawn like Zondark and Mozgus? Surely some of them are just empowered humans, or perhaps not. I just found myself wondering that the other day while rereading the Vritannis arc.
Everyone around him pledged their undying loyalty to the man and his dream. They were killed for his dream to manifest.
Griffith did nothing wrong.
Soviet Casca was best Casca.
Yeah, the faces that he makes prove it. He saw Guts and Casca getting along and realized he couldn't even go to his back-up bitch.
>Griffith wanted to kill himself because he became a shell of his former self and couldn't do anything or help anyone.
I'm torn on this. On one hand, I think he was jealous and bitter about the whole thing, and seeing Casca coming back to him not as a lover or soldier but as a nurse destroyed him.
On the other hand, I think that he honestly wanted Guts and Casca to happen, and when he realized how he had forced them to separate because he couldn't even live without someone helping him, he couldn't accept life anymore. I saw his leading the cart to turn over and trying to cut his own throat while trying to tell Guts to stay back as his way of making the Band go on with their lives.
Why is he so perfect?
He's a reality warping Demigod with supernatural charisma that extends to the living, the dead, and various inanimate objects.
NTR at its finest nigga
Don't compare my innocent Squealer to Griffith
Don't listen to your other hand.
When do you think the story is going to turn grim dark again. I know it has always had humor and other comical aspect. But Griffith can't just be a cool ruler. He serves the idea of evil, when is he going to do something evil, or is the Godhand going to come into their reality now?
Not until the final Griffith/Guts confrontation. People are all upset about the story being too happy don't seem to realize that Miura's setting this arc up to be the second Golden Age and Guts is gonna lose everything again.
Oh God please no, he's already suffered enough. Don't tell me he's going to get to the elf island and his new band dies again? Personally I don't think that may happen, these new characters have gotten a lot of characterization and development I don't think he's just going to toss them.
Yes, Guts loses everything and the Hound gets be in control 24/7 from there on out, until the end of the series. Glorious.
Not that soon and not all at once, but something will happen to one or all of them eventually.
I don't think that's going to happen, something will happen that will probably bring Guts back to midland, cuz causality, but I don't think it's going to be as bad as everyone dies, or the dog gets loose and Guts goes berserk
Well the dog has to be let out at some point. More importantly: will the Skull Knight get to kill Void?
Threadly reminder the pirate captain was introduced in 2007.
Argh! The boatride shall henceforth be the new Namek.
What was that, 50 chapters ago?
you could have said Hitler did nothing wrong and it would have been less offensive
i will rape you with a butchers knife, gently.
The TouMAN will destroy that fucked up illusion of his!
Why? Rape HAD been occurring for millions of years before humans came around...
yeah, I always thought that they predict that people will always choose the easy way, so when Guts chooses to go through the harder path he is "denying his fate"
am I the only one that thinks that guts will be presented with the same choice as Griffith but he will refuse it, shocking Griffith and make him go berserk
The Idea of Evil was kinda retconned, but when it was in the story it wasn't evil. It was called that, but it was actually just a god formed of human hatred, regret, and unrealized desires. Its only goal was to give humans what they subconsciously want, and to give meaning to human suffering. It was actually kinda beautiful.
A beeing born of hatred and sorrow is not going to fucking bring salvation to mankind I can guarantee you that much.
It's come from nothing but negative emotions and aeons in darkness and solitude will leave any concious beeing in a terrifying state of mind. I believe that The Idea of Evil does not want whats best for mankind, but whats best for his own children, the apostles and the godhand, hence the Age of Darkness. The wickedness of mankind that spawned his existence will be wiped out and replaced by man created in his own mind.
Normally I'd say you're free to believe what you want about a work of fiction, but what you wrote is just a big fallacy. You can't logically argue that something bad will come of something made of bad things. The premises don't support the conclusion. It's analogous to saying a child born of rape will be a terrible person who will likely rape people.
Yes, the rest of us think he will take the offer to kill Griffith, killing his little Band of the Hawk with brands, to equalize himself with Griffith in a sense.
Guts was literally born of hatred and sorrow. Given birth to by a hanged woman.
The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, unless its past in some way affects its present value. For instance, the origin of evidence can be quite relevant to its evaluation, especially in historical investigations. The origin of testimony—whether first hand, hearsay, or rumor—carries weight in evaluating it.
In contrast, the value of many scientific ideas can be objectively evaluated by established techniques, so that the origin or history of the idea is irrelevant to its value. For example, the chemist Kekulé claimed to have discovered the ring structure of the benzene molecule during a dream of a snake biting its own tail. While this fact is psychologically interesting, it is neither evidence for nor against the hypothesis that benzene has a ring structure, which had to be tested for correctness.
So, the Genetic Fallacy is committed whenever an idea is evaluated based upon irrelevant history. To offer Kekulé's dream as evidence either for or against the benzene ring hypothesis would be to commit the Genetic Fallacy.
Appeal to Misleading Authority
We are not talking about a human living in the world of the living.
We are talking about a God born from nothing but suffering, who knows nothing but suffering. He doesn't know the affection of a friend, a lover or parents. He was born all alone, and has been all alone forever. I completly agree that a child born of rape will be destinied to become a bad person, but that is because of the influence of others and the world. When you take away all outside influence and leave suffering with nothing but suffering, how will good intentions develop?
How can a creature who knows nothing about love, sympathy, empathy or compassion set out to do something for someone else?
There is one thing psychology know, and that is that isolation breeds madness, add nothing but suffering to said isolation and you got yourself a bomb waiting to blow.
that isn't an opinion, it's a fact. you can only judge something based on its present qualities, not the qualities that constitute it.