Love is an ideal. It's a western concept, with most of its roots in the renaissance era, that is mostly used to define modern courtship and relationships.
Believing in love is no different than believing any other ideal. Take justice, for example--most people have an inherent believe that others who do wrong will eventually be punished for their actions, and our laws reflect this. But it's entirely possible that the man who house your car will simply be a thousand dollars richer, and the woman who cheated on you will end up happily married to her new boyfriend. Ideals like love or justice aren't like the laws of physics--they can't exist separately from our understanding of them. Gravity will still be there even if you don't believe in it, but love will not. Ideals are a cultural phenomenon that society tries to promote and to some degree, enforce. There are plenty of examples of societies that have existed without love--ancient China had arranged marriages based largely on status, and the relationship between husband and wife was based on the concept of duty.
Like any other ideal, love is a fantasy and shines brightest in a fantasy world. When people write LNs, manga, or anime, they are creating a world for people to live in. People who take "waifus" have become attached to this ideal. But it isn't something that could exist in the real world. An ultr-rich executive offering a girl working at a maid cafe her a beach condo and sports car to come live with him is likely to find that she is quite different from the ideal the maid cafe is designed to cultivate.
Accepting this reality does not necessitate condemning yourself to solitude. If you prefer the company of others, or want to raise a family, by all means--go out and play the game. But remain cognizant of the differences between reality and fantasy,
tl;dr love is just a concept that societies can and have existed without. People watch romances because fantasy concepts make more sense in a fantasy world.
What's the point of this thread anyway?
I'm pretty sure we all know this already.
So basically if you're more happy being alone than socializing with normals, go for it?
Like since sixth grade
Sure, but if you're looking for a thesis statement it would probably be "don't go looking for ideals in the real world."
I was actually looking for discussion rather than just trying to be preachy, but it seems like this is all commonly accepted on /a/.
What's wrong with chasing deals?
Since before then. But I usually start believing in that shit again whenever I'm dating a girl who's out of my league.
Mantra of the single man.
Sorry, anon. Ideals are all I've got.
Well that makes life and fiction more interesting, despite is just an illusion just summoned Toumahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEkUiSRzu6o
I think if you want things in the real world, you should look for things that exist in the real world. Love is a useful concept--it helps people accept each other and trust each other. But if you're looking for your "waifu" in the real world, you're looking for something that doesn't exist and are going to have unrealistic expectations from a relationship.
Saber won't come for you, though.
It does. That's one of the reasons why we created ideals, and why they're so central to entertainment. Nice song--though I honestly don't remember anything that happened in H&C.
No one expects their waifu to be real.
3DPD exists as a term for a reason.
>But if you're looking for your "waifu" in the real world, you're looking for something that doesn't exist and are going to have unrealistic expectations from a relationship.
Aaand, what's wrong with this? People have unrealistic expectations from virtually everything.
>Saber won't come for you, though.
You don't know that.
What if 2D can exist in the 3D world?
Just read this in the Miyazaki thread:
> According to [Miyazaki], anime suffers because industry staff is made up of otaku who "don't spend time watching real people" and are "humans who can't stand looking at other humans."
3DPD pig disguisting.
What if 2D can exist in the 3D world?
Like, a cardboard cutout?
I like this, but convince me there's something good about going through life with unrealistic expectations.
You get it too. From what I have seen, the idea of romantic love as something that illuminates your life and gives it purpose is, for many people in the west today, something that occupies the same place in a normal person's spiritual life that God once did.
As you pointed out, this trend is clearest when you look at the arts. The subject matter of Medieval and early Italian Renaissance fiction/music is overwhelmingly religious or mythological in nature, because God is the center of people's lives. Fast forward to the modern era, and you see that mainstream fiction/music is mostly glorifying love. People today think that finding their true love will magically make all of their problems go away and give them the power to overcome any future hardships.
It's a sham of course, and it's what makes so many people unhappy when they should be content. God technically cannot fail you, because God is intangible; if he exists, it is only in your mind. People though? People are not so simple. Like pic related said, there is no such thing as a wholly good or evil person, and, in the end, the only person who can save you or redeem your mistakes is yourself.
Trying to hold a living, breathing human being to the same standards as an abstraction or expecting that finding someone who says they love you to be a panacea for all your personal ills is why the U.S. has a national divorce rate of 52% and personal relationships in general are a terrible mess.
Sure, I guess. I was thinking more like they appear two-dimensional from any angle.
It doesn't, but that hasn't stopped people from trying.
This is the world you're headed for.
>Saber won't come for you, though.
That's why you go out and look for her instead.
And that quote is complete bullshit, Miyazaki can bite a dick. He loves being up there in his ivory tower sneering at all those below him while tons of idiots on online forums clamor to suck him off.
>What's wrong with chasing deals?
Nothing. An ideal will never betray you unless you betray it, and staying true to a good ideal will improve you as a person even when you inevitably fall short of it.
For introverted people or people who are ambitious or have great ability, it's a far better course to take than concerning yourself too much with romantic love.
Being delusional isn't a bad thing, it's a blessing that allows you to live as though fantasies are real. Someone with a waifu that honestly feels like she will always be there and love him is going to be much happier than someone with realistic expectations who has to put up with all the real bullshit associated with real girls.
Cardboard has 3 dimensions, though.
>What if 2D can exist in the 3D world?
That will never happen. Even I'm not that delusional.
Waifus are 3D. They are not flatlanders.
Maybe you're not delusional enough.
Anything is possible, anon. There's no telling what could happen.
Yes, we're on exactly the same page. I was actually thinking about making the religion analogy, but realized I'd already gone on for much longer than most people would care to read. Like you say, both of these ideas are deeply connected with hope and have come to dominate of people's lives.
I'm not saying all this to be super negative, but people need to have relationships based on human psychology and not romantic comedies.
Will turning a blind eye to the world really make you happier than fighting for what the world has to offer?
Don't go out and look for Saber. Go out and look for a real girl--if that's in fact what you want--and understand she will be very different than Saber.
Interesting view, however how do you explain historical reports of actions taken for love, or desire to be with a certain person even in societies with no real ideal of love? Are you arguing there is no grain of inherit truth in the ideal?
>Will turning a blind eye to the world really make you happier than fighting for what the world has to offer?
Yes, because as you pointed out all the world has to offer is shit.
What if Saber is actually out there?
I agree that Miyazaki is a condescending little shit who doesn't help matters by constantly distancing himself from the anime community. But I would also say that he's right about one thing: anime characters are too frequently based on ideals and fantasies rather than real human beings, which has limited it as a medium.
>Anything is possible, anon. There's no telling what could happen.
We use to think the world was flat.
Now look at us and everything we have accomplished since then.
Not that guy, but real love =/= ideal of love.
The difference between the medieval courtly love tradition and an actual medieval marriage is about as drastic as the difference between the relationship in a romantic comedy and a real life relationship today.
Good point, I failed to differentiate between the two. My apologies.
dreamers > realists > disillusioned dreamers
I wish I could believe again.
People have known the world was round since the days of classical Greece, and most people who were educated and not piss-stupid serfs in the medieval world also knew that the world was round and not flat.
That doesn't change the point.
Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.
Didn't they also get a very loose approximation of the speed of light, I can't recall where I heard that, it may just be a wives tale. Still they were very crafty to calculate that stuff with the limited tools and mathematics they had.
Still, it's not impossible.
The point is don't be so negative about things.
You don't known everything about the universe. As long as the probability isn't zero there is always hope.
That isn't true and you know it.
Sure, if you and I could recreate the world however we wanted, we'd make a baller ass place free of suffering and full of cute and oversexed women who are fervently loyal to their man and orgasm when he whispers in their ear. Compared to that world, this one sucks. But that world is made up. This one is right here, and what it has to offer is all that there is. You can't find a woman like that, but you can find one who won't cheat on you, or who you have incredible sex with, or who cooks delicious meals. You can also be a person who does amazing things for others.
Not me, but you said what I wanted to say.
I'm not sure it's that great of an idea, but as children we're encouraged to believe in ideals. Santa brings good kids presents; when people die they go to heaven; love is eternal.
We can't believe those things forever, but that doesn't mean we can't find other things that have real value.
Though that may be true, my love for /a/ is unmatched.
We love you too, /a/non.
>You can also be a person who does amazing things for others.
This. Before you go out in the real world with insane expectations, consider what you yourself have to offer. Self improvement will take you far; learning to give and think about what others want will help you get what you want.
So edgy. Try not to cut yourself.
>Justice is a fantasy because injustice is real! >Love is a fantasy because arranged marriages happened!
>Some social facts do not have an objective existence!
We've got ourselves a latter-day Plato right here.
1. Social constructs are part of life. Even if they lack an independent physical existence they have real and observable effects. Please don't tell me this is news to you.
2. Real feelings can and are affected by socially constructed ideals. Humor ceases to exist when you try to extract it from its social context, but only someone like you would try and claim it is a "fantasy". The platonic ideal of perfect humor might be unreachable, but the feeling of humor is very real.
3. And yes romantic love is a real feeling, which people experience and are affected by. No experience of love is perfect image of the ideal of romantic love, but that couldn't be more irrelevant. There is no perfect joke, no perfect justice, no perfect insult, no perfect love and so and so forth but these things are FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES real.
You may as well sit there and prattle on about the fantasy that is the letter "o". IT'S A CIRCLE NOT A SOUND. But of course nobody cares and will go on Oooooo'ing whether you like it or not.
Faggot OP alert
>inb4 too long
> posting a delusional rant defending waifus
Chill. Love as it exists in reality is a social construct. Love as it exists in anime is a fantasy. That is exactly the difference this topic is discussing--it stresses that people shouldn't equate the two.
Do you believe that the rant is incorrect?
>i dont understand so its crazy and harmful
I like you.
>the differences between reality and fantasy
That reality is absolute irredeemable shit and fantasy is literally the greatest thing imaginable?
Love is just a word used to describe our specie's natural instinct, we are a specie that survive as a group, we form a partnership of a pair to rise our offspring efficiently, the "love" between us is a chemical reaction in our brain, we are hardwired to do so, it may not be a law of physic but it's something that we can't deny, "love" is in us no matter what you believe in, of course you can choose to be forever alone and not producing any offspring to ease off world population problem.
That's actually pretty funny.