Homura Akemi is dead, and Homura killed her.
A worthy sacrifice for our goddess Akuma Homura.
Well yes she became a witch and for all purposes homura died. That she transcended witch hood to become a deity is diverging else.
what is this
Okay I haven't watched any of this yet because mahou shoujo but I'm somewhat familiar with the basis of the plot because one of my friends won't shut up about it.
Can someone explain to me how this whole "kyubey needs energy to prevent entropy" thing is SUPPOSED to work in-universe? Cause I really really hate when sci-fi or fantasy uses terms from the other as a cop out to explain things when they can just admit a wizard did it instead.
I'm willing to overlook such a travesty if the way it's explained in-universe is at LEAST self-consistent and doesn't contradict itself or lead to any fridge logic. It might be pseudo-science bullshit, but if that bullshit at least follows its own rules correctly then I can at least maintain suspension of disbelief long enough to enjoy the story.
Preventing the heat death of the universe (entropy) is basically used as an excuse for the aliens (kyuubey) to harvest energy. It has little relevance to the actual plot.
Watch the show.
Universe is running out of usable energy, so they farm more energy. Not that complicated.
The manga adaptation of Rebellion.
Little girl tears save the universe.
What I don't get is that if it "has little relevance to the actual plot", why bother even bringing it up at all? It's fucking magic right, you don't need to go into details. Passing it off as "entropy" raises more questions and contradictions than it does to solve an issue.
For example if his race of creature has the power to grant time reversal, and the ability to store and harvest large enough amounts of energy that it would offset the heat death of the universe, then instead of just harvesting lolis they could instead go find some big super star somewhere, rig up a dyson sphere or something similar to suck it dry, reverse time, preferably into a parallel version, and do it all again. That would provide unlimited energy far more efficiently and sensibly, without delving into the risks of fucking with humans and THEIR bullshit.
Believe me, I'm well aware that all that can be summed up as "you're reading far too much into it faggot because this is just a show about magic girls doing magic girl things". I get that. My POINT is that if that's the case, why not just STAY within the realm of magic girls doing magic girl things, and avoid any and all situations that would cause discrepancies to exist that bring up those kind of distracting questions? It just feels like poor writing.
Well they needed a reason for the aliens to do what they do, so they went with entropy.
That's about it.
Because it is poor writing. But Japan and weebs eat up pseudoscience bullshit. So that's what they went with.
There needs to be a reason for them to be doing everything they're doing. If it was just about magical girls doing magical things, there would be no motivation for the aliens.
Also, presumably they're talking about staving off the actual heat death of the universe, meaning that they really do need new energy that wouldn't exist in the universe otherwise. Stars burn out everntually.
Also also, the power of, say, time reversal isn't actually part of their technology, the magic comes from the girls' souls, the aliens are just facilitators.
So kyubey's race MUST obey the second law of thermodynamics (entropy is always increasing) but it's alright to break the first law (conservation of energy within a system)?
That makes no fucking sense. Energy doesn't come from nowhere. If you're just transforming existing energy, then the first law says that energy expended to make the little girl's energy less entropic and more useable must be equal or greater than that which you are creating. Similar to how the energy used by cooling machines to freeze water actually use more energy than the ice expends by cooling your drink. It may be useful to do so in the short term, but it doesn't avoid the heat death of the universe.
Yes, the power of magical girls - that is, the power of emotions - breaks the idea of conservation of energy. What's wrong with that exactly?
You know how authors have limited knowledge of things, but write about them anyway? And they're bound to write about things or concepts that they don't fully understand and will collapse under intense scrutiny from people who are crazy about that thing of concept?
It's like that. It just so happens that the thing they chose to write is their cop out to rationalize why little girls are suffering.
They do mention that his race doesn't understand either -since you're right and the first law should still be in effect- and that Humans are the only ones they've ever seen such a phenomenon in before.
People keep saying like this but I have yet to see an example of how they apparently didn't know what they were talking about when they wrote it.
>they really do need new energy that wouldn't exist in the universe otherwise
that's just the thing though, it's coming from the little girls. converting their despair into energy is just another (yet unconventional) process of transforming one set of existing energy into another, similar to how pushing a boulder downhill converts potential energy into kinetic energy in equal amounts. That initial push to get it started though, means that you're expending more energy than you get back, because there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. Kyubey's conversion process must inherently put more energy into it than he gets out of it, meaning he is actually CONTRIBUTING to the rise of entropy, not counteracting it.
Look directly above your post at
I don't think they actually said that humans were the only ones they observed it in. The fact that they apparently have a "quota" for each planet implies that there is more than one farming operation going on at once.
That's the part that gets to me most. Why bother with such a cheap cop out when it's just going to open the proverbial can of worms? These guys are supposed to be among the best writers, or else they'd be out of a job, so why not just stick to the realm of reasoning they're familiar with?
I'm sure that with enough brainstorming, they could potentially come up with a magical reason why it all needed to happen, instead of coming up with a scientific one. Hell, I'd bet several different internet armchair-writers could do the same. So why bother in the first place? It's baffling.
But the thing is that humans, and therefore human emotions, are a renewable resource.
>Kyubey's conversion process must inherently put more energy into it than he gets out of it
Clearly not, since he has a net gain of energy. That's the whole point. The energy comes from the emotions themselves.
That...doesn't really address what I said. I don't think you understood my question.
I really don't see why it bothers people so much, there's nothing wrong with the system they presented. Also, are you the guy who hasn't actually seen the series? If so, you really should not be trying to comment based only on what you've heard about it.
Renewable energy does not mean "energy from nowhere" though. It means that the energy gathered is from a source so large and likely not to be diminished from the point of view of the gatherer, that you can farm it endlessly.
From kyubey's point of view though (the entire scale of the universe) there IS no such thing as renewable energy, because eventually all energy will stop being converted as the system reaches thermodynamic equilibrium. By getting a "net gain" in the process you are breaking the first law of thermodynamics, which in itself opens a whole NEW can of worms besides the entire entropy thing.
In this case, it is energy from nowhere. "The amount of emotional energy generated by each individual is greater than the amount expended during its birth and growth." Emotions are fucking magical, that's the entire point.
What proverbial can of worms? All of the arguments made are shitty.
>They're breaking the laws of thermodynamics
Wow, you think? It's almost like the entire premise of the Incubators' involvement is that they searched for an energy source that didn't come from physical mass. The argument here is that ethereal matter doesn't operate within physical laws. It's science fantasy--there's sort of a whole genre about this sort of thing.
Well, first of all the problem with this argument is that Incubators can't make wishes for the girls or even provide suggestions. Also, time reversal in a linear sense never happens. The time traveler in the series is creating alternate realities and making lateral jumps between them.
Dyson spheres are so hypothetical and implausible that I can't believe you seriously brought them up at all.
Just saying, suspension of disbelief is pretty easy here. The concept is simple. Magic > Physical laws
Why don't the Incubators trigger a Big Crunch - Big Bang loop to reset entropy?
>I really don't see why it bothers people so much, there's nothing wrong with the system they presented.
It's a problem for those who actually know what the concept being referred to actually means, because just passing it off is not just ignorance, but WILLFUL ignorance, which by some definitions is considered stupidity.
It would be like living in a society where there are plenty of people that understand that the concept of gravity says that things fall down at an equal rate regardless of mass (with wind resistance as a buffer of course), and reading a story by someone who doesn't understand it that passes off some internal story mechanism conflict by using it. Like say for example, two guys fall off some tower, but one hits the ground far faster because he was wearing very heavy armor while the other was just in plain clothes, even though they fell off together at the same time. THAT would be BULLSHIT, and everyone who accepts that explanation simply because they don't understand it themselves is being willfully ignorant.
I agree that this whole 'overcoming entropy' was probably just ignorance on the writer's part. It's most likely that the assumption was that the majority of the audience would not be knowledgeable enough to question a pseudo-scientific answer.
Though if it helps your suspension of disbelief, try considering the fact that a scientific law is not, 'this is absolute and just so', but 'this is absolute and just so under every circumstance and condition we can observe.'
But honestly that's just a bullshit excuse.
None of that actually addresses my concerns re: what the problem with the system they wrote is.
I don't understand. You're upset because magic doesn't follow physical laws as we understand them?
That's the fucking denotation of magic. It wouldn't -be- magic if it could be explained scientifically.
"Overcoming entropy" means nothing more than "generating enough emotional energy to offset the loss of usable energy due to entropy". It's pretty simple.
Not everyone can accept 'mahou des' as an answer.
The principles of the magic in the show are clearly explained and consistent. I don't see what the problem is.
Dyson spheres are very plausible for a civilization that has achieved at least type 2 on the kardashev scale (for comparison, current humans are still transitioning between type 0 and type 1). Because of the scope of the problem that Kyubey's race is dealing with though, it seems only natural to assume that they are a type 3 civilization, so anything type 2 would be even easier for them to do than things like agriculture would be for us.
The problem with them being able to break the first law of thermodynamics is that it leads to a far bigger set of issues than the plot is illustrating. In the worst cases you'd basically cause the universe to implode upon itself. The notion that you can break the first law of thermodynamics though but still being subject to the second, is ridiculous. If "Magic > Physical laws" as you say, then they should be able to break any laws at will. Hell, there are even scientific situations whereby the second law doesn't even apply if the first law is violated.
The thing is that WHEN you are telling a magical story and delve into a scientific explanation, you effectively open the door to the scientific validity of said explanation, because it's now bringing in a whole new set of rules that also apply now, where before you could ignore them entirely.
Like I said before, they would have done much better to never have touched it to begin with. Just come up with a magical explanation and leave science out of it entirely, and bam there's no internal consistencies.
Then stay the fuck away from fantasy. Next are you going to point out the scientific flaws in His Dark Materials? You want to question the biology of how Arwen's cellular structure becomes bound to the time limit of apoptosis just because she fell in love with Aragorn? Maybe you're going to point out that Rei in EoE is too large of a lifeform to support herself nutritionally because volume exponentially outpaces surface area?
what's a Arwen? do you mean the ships that star fox flies around in?
>The problem with them being able to break the first law of thermodynamics is that it leads to a far bigger set of issues than the plot is illustrating
Probably because those issues are irrelevant to the plot? We don't know exactly how the Incubators plan to handle the energy they gather, presumably they know what they're doing. The repercussions of their energy-gathering are outside the purview of the series. You really are trying way too hard to find a problem with the system when the parts explained in the show are fine.
We are never given enough insight to the situation beyond that the Incubators are trying to stop entropy. What's presented doesn't make any sense and it made me cringe at first too, but it works for the story and can be easily handwaved because it's hardly relevant past giving Kyuubey a utilitarian motive.
>Dyson spheres are very plausible for a civilization (hypothetically, because we actually actually have no way of being sure of what we will discover in the future)
>In the worst cases you'd basically cause the universe to implode upon itself.
Do you have a concept of inertial frames? The universe hasn't ever stopped exploding. Obviously, if space is infinite, an infinite source of energy isn't an issue.
>they should be able to break any laws at will.
Which they can.
There are no inconsistencies within the reference frame of the story. Everything you posit is retarded because it's shitty pseudoscience that arrogantly assumes everything we've discovered thus far is unequivocal and can't be disproven.
I don't think you understand. It's like >>101223826
said: introducing a 'scientific' explanation breaks the suspension of disbelief, and when said explanation is not sound it begins to invalidate the plot of the show. Normally, this wouldn't be as big a problem, but Madoka uses Thermodynamics as a plot point. The entire reason for harvesting energy is because thermodynamics is a barrier that cannot be overcome, so they resort to other means to get around it. But the other means to get around thermodynamics is inherently impossible according to thermodynamics, and since the first plot point relies on thermodynamics being true and absolute, this creates a contradictory situation known as a plothole.
Looks like you've been doing a good job of staying away from fantasy so far if you haven't read LotR.
The second law of thermodynamics is absolute, the first is apparently not because of magic. No contradictions there.
What's presented makes perfect sense. I don't know how so many people managed to miss the incredibly basic point behind what QB is doing.
Problem: The universe is running out of usable energy due to entropy.
Discovery: Holy shit emotions are fucking magical and produce free energy.
Solution: Let's farm the fuck out of these easily-manipulated little human girls. Who doesn't love free energy?
I can feel it. The moment is getting closer.
The moment when Homura dies for good and forever, unloved by everyone.
That day I will cry tears of joy.
> first plot point relies on thermodynamics being true and absolute
It doesn't though. This isn't true in the story or in real life. The law of thermodynamics exists as the incubators know it because they everything they have observed and tested up to that point follows these laws. That's what a scientific law is.
So before the events of the story, they set out to observe new phenomena that might not operate within thermodynamics.
The problem is that the plot insists that thermodynamics is sound, and it can't just be broken down by saying that only part of it doesn't work or does work. If the second law is still in place, than the first law would be as well. Laws within theories aren't isolated rules, but interdependent cause and reaction effects that rely on each other to be absolute.
Even if you could say that part one is not in effect while the first is, that would make no sense. If the first law is not in effect, than there would be no need to overcome entropy.
>The problem is that the plot insists that thermodynamics is sound, and it can't just be broken down by saying that only part of it doesn't work or does work
I don't think that was ever stated. Only entropy is presented as absolute. You're stuck in a rut of looking at thermodynamics as it is understood to work by us, in reality, but the point is that the Incubators discovered that it doesn't work that way.
>If the first law is not in effect, than there would be no need to overcome entropy.
Uh, how so? It's not like they repealed the first law altogether, they just found one specific energy source that doesn't abide by it.
So I haven't watched Rebellion yet but I've basically had the gist of it spoiled for me because I couldn't bear to keep away from madoka threads. I already know Madokami's modus operandi was to get rid of all witches in all timelines, but because of the HOMURA DID NOTHING WRONG obsession at the time I couldn't figure out what it was Akuma Homura is supposed to do now. Is she going to go kill witches now or what? Also Madokami is dead right
Just watch the damn camrip if you want to know what happens.
The only thing the plot insists upon is that everything the Incubators have studied and tested before magic has followed the laws of thermodynamics. Magic does not follow such a law because souls are not physical matter and the energy they produce is limitless--suspension of disbelief goes here.
What you're doing is like noticing the lasers in a sci-fi space battle are visible even though they're in space where the particle density isn't nearly dense enough for the light to refract off of. and going, "wow, that's scientifically implausible!!" No fucking duh. We all know that. You're not a genius for pointing it out, you're just a prat for thinking the point needed to be brought up.
You know what I just realized? I don't think we've ever seen Sayaka's reaction to the fact that Magical Girls become Witches.
She's usually the one who reveals it. I wonder how she'd take the news?
No fucks given. Sayaka's become so edgy that she cuts herself to summon her witch persona. But she still improved in Rebellion. Now she doesn't bat an eye when faced with shocking HEALING related things.
Why isn't there a Sayaka version of this?
Nice question. Depends on a lot though. Does Sayaka know she's a lich? Will she have a reason to look for a way to reverse witches like Kyouko did? Where will she be at with Kyousuke?
Sayaka thinks highly of magical girls and the system as a whole because of Mami, and tends to react poorly to the revelation that it's not totally perfect and pure.
Probably just uncontrollable laughing followed by another berserker spree. It's not like she has any sanity left to lose.
We had that in ep10.
Yeah, but she didn't believe it. You'll notice Mami isn't shooting everybody in that scene, either.
>yfw they'll opt for the dualism end
madoka is all about balance. If madoka becomes a god, an evil counterpart will appear
therefore, either they both live, or they both die
Is that my face when, anon? Is it?
They both shall die then.
Please. As if those enslaved furry fucks are in a position to judge.
Nah, bro. Urobotchi's gone, no more suffering.
They're in a position to serve their master, at least. That's important.
He's not writing any more Madoka.
u wot m8
Just wait, you little shit. Incubators master race will slap everyone's shit.
Homu makes humanity proud. Those extraterrestials got an extra serving of mindfuck.
stop the presses! was him the one who wrote rebellion? who is writing anything that comes after it?
Also, what is him working on right now?
As if Akuma would ever permit them to do anything but pick up her shit. They're going carry that weight...
He said that he felt like he's written all there is to Madoka and Homura, it doesn't necessarily mean he's done with the whole franchise.
Yes, he was.
We don't know.
Susei no Gargantia has a S2 greenlit--he could be doing that.
Even if Gen really did leave, I'm pretty sure whoever took over would be smart enough to know that the reason people buy this series is the suffering.
It's not up to Homura. When finally the airhead of Madoka remembers that she is actually a goddess, it will be over for her. And after that, the now reality warpers Incubators jumps in.
Anti-spirals would be proud
The lack of best girl in this thread is getting dangerously disgusting.
Logical creatures without real emotion (butthurt) don't deal in wild speculation and tiny chances like you do. True QBs would be ashamed on your behalf.
Then why didn't you actually post best girl anon? She's already here anyways.
Ah, the image swap glitch strikes again!
Clearly you meant to post a Mami image.
You've clearly lost your head.
Beg your pardon, witch of us did you say lost their head again?
Fighting is bad
That's Homura's line.
Fucking Sayaka good. Her hymen would regenerate every time thanks to her passive ability. Awesome.
Also her cap n' tea cup
Ironic revenge torture best torture.
When did Homura beat Mami at something?
Oh, wait, never
She beats her where it matters.
Silly anon, Homura won her heart
>Mami gets chomped by the surprise form of Charlotte
>Homura wins a battle that has seen countless of times before
Whatever helps you sleep at night, anon.
So Mami loses and Homura wins, but you're being arbitrary and trying to discredit Homura because you're a Mamifag.
>arguing about literally nothing
Homura spent over a decade dropping niggas without ever getting 'surprised'.
If she can do it, why not the most powerful meguca?
But in seriousness, I love the concept of Nagisa giving Mami resolve and a calm mind. Mami taking advantage of Homura's confidence is a neat juxtaposition to Mami's death in Ep. 3 from overconfidence.
Homura wasn't overconfident against Mami. She looked scared and uncertain towards the end of the fight.
She was still more confident than she should have been, i.e., not at all.
In Rebellion, Homura did really well while fighting Mami. Not sure what movie you watched where the power gap is immense though.
After the first few months, she'd seen everything before anyway, of course she wasn't surprised.
Probably saw most of the witches first time around following after Madoka and Mami, or the second when she had them as backup.
I never said the power gap was immense?
Nobody's saying that the power gap is immense, just that Homura lost because she was overconfident and dropped her guard.
Although it is canon that the actual literal power gap is immense.
She put too much faith in her timestop as a trump card and got ribbon'd.
It's pretty straightforward. I don't know why people try to spin their fight one way or the other.
She didn't actually fought Mami though.
That reveal felt like such a copout.
>Although it is canon that the actual literal power gap is immense.
I didn't realize we can call our fanfics canon.
I wouldn't really call it a copout. Being cautious is completely in Mami's battle style, and those ribbons are really fucking versatile.
If they can make guns of all kinds, there's no reason they can't make a copy of her too, I guess.
I wouldn't be saying it was canon if it wasn't, you know, actually canon. As in, stated by the creators. Mami is consistently ranked as the strongest meguka, while Homura is described as absolutely the weakest sort.
There are other factors in play of course, but that's why I stated that I meant literal power levels.
You're right, the canon power gap is immense. Bowmura is immeasurably powerful and Mami doesn't even register on her scale.
You're absolutely right, Bowmura is very powerful. As evidenced by all the times we saw her fight, such as... and, uh...
Yes she did.
>interviews and le newtype power charts
Try watching the show. It's much more accurate.
>As evidenced by all the times we saw her fight
She's been shown beating groups of wraiths and the end desert scene she technically wins but most likely burns out all her magic in that fight.
Of course she was probably planned to burn out her magic, fucking Judas.
Wraith lasers can't even touch her.
Also, magical girls and witches are parallel. Considering that Homulilly is able to spawn 14 meguca-level, independent familiars, as well as legions of generic familiars and having the largest repertoire of familiars, we can appropriately theorize that Bowmura is ridiculously strong.
The interviews with the creators are inarguably canon.
Although the show itself also supports this. Homura is a very weak magical girl with a very broken ability, plenty of foreknowledge, and enough firepower to wipe Japan off the map. She herself has no real power.
>The interviews with the creators are inarguably canon.
Stopped reading there.
She's never actually been shown beating Wraiths. At the end of the series, she drops into a group of them, fires an arrow, and it ends.
And of course, we have no idea how powerful the wraiths are.
If you're going to willingly choose to ignore elements of the canon that don't support your own fanon, then I suppose there's no helping you. You're far too committed to it.
>She's never actually been shown beating Wraiths.
Doesn't she beat like 3 of them when she's shown with her wings still pink?
I'm not gonna be retarded like the others but I've always thought Bowmura gained a massive power boost from the target of her wish to protect being changed to a concept.
Bowmura is most likely very powerful, she has the holy weapon of god after all.
You should never take anything as canon but things that you see in the work itself. Otherwise, you open yourself up to contradictions and dissonance. I.e, Shinbo and Urobuchi saying opposite things on the same subjects.
Sayaka exhausted her magic fighting them, I realize that doesn't say much, but it does at least point out that wraiths aren't simply walking targets.
I always assumed that her wish was null and void and that she made a different one in the new timeline, hence the new weapon and power.
I mean, Madoka was wiped out and never existed.
No, she just drops down into the middle of a bunch.
If she never existed, why did Homura remember her?
A sequel better actually show more full fights against Wraiths. I love their design.
The creators are the authority on their work, since they made it. For things where there's no contradiction, there's no problem in taking their word as canon.
If I just disregarded their words, I'd be ignoring a lot of interesting facts.
Wraiths are boring, they all look the same. I can't imagine fights with them being anywhere close to as interesting as with witches.
I don't know about that. I mean, Kyouko says she went out because of some boy she liked, not that she was overpowered.
Presumably she was about to be overcome with despair and just sort of gave up before Madoka showed up.
I though they were called "demons"
Yeah, Homura's old wish seemed to be be voided.
Urobuchi said that the gap left by Madoka's ascension was filled in by Homura and that's why she has the bow.
So at the least we can assume her power to be as much as a a regular Madoka. After that comes specula, like "did Homura's despair accumulate in every timeline?" stuff like that.
>For things where there's no contradiction,
So you're allowing yourself to be just as arbitrary as (>>101231329) who criticized people who totally ignore interviews. You can't pick and choose.
>I always assumed that her wish was null and void and that she made a different one in the new timeline, hence the new weapon and power.
Sequel changed that, future limited edition versions of movie 2 will remove the bow and replace it with a shield using CGI technology.
Time traveler escape clause, I guess.
Even though Kyuubey was also there for the universe re-write and didn't remember her.
Yes, I am allowing me to be just as arbitrary as myself.
Like I said, if there's no contradiction, then it's fine to take it as canon. I'm not picking and choosing, I'm setting out logical rules and then following them.
Majuu, yeah. It's one of those Japanese mythological words that doesn't correlate to any English words specifically--you can call it a lot of things depending on the context. Demon is certainly closest, but you can use something else for flavor/variety.
>Sequel changed that
...there was definitely no retconning in Rebellion. Did you watch it yet?
I guess it just fits better in Japanese.
Mahou Shoujo, Majo, Majuu. 'Wraith' seems kind of out of place by comparison.
The official subs use wraith, so I'll go with that.
As does the dub. If anybody cares.
The dub was pretty alright but it's not really worth listening to.
If she made a different wish in the new universe then why was she still allowed to go past Madoka's wish to fulfill her own wish from ep. 10 to "protect Madoka"?
Oh shush, anon. It's not hard to understand.
Homura originally had a shield as a symbol of her intent to protect Madoka. In absence of that, she took up a bow to fight for Madoka's new world. Then when the Incubators threatened Madoka, she once again made the wish to protect her. It's because she becomes a witch in order to protect Madoka rather than to curse the world like most witches do that she is such a special case.
I watched it, but then that's what I usually do.
Didn't really have any complaints.
I agree. Same with using 'barrier' for 'kekkai'. That's just how translation goes though.
'Labyrinth' is a more fitting word, though I guess it's longer. Don't know how accurate it is to 'kekkai', though.
Isn't barrier the right translation for kekkai? I always see that used.
There's zero credit to that theory and you shouldn't have listened to whoever gave you that idea.
Homura didn't just get power from her wish giving her hope. Her power arose because her pain and suffering are dear to her. Most girls reject their despair and curse the world, but Homura accepted it as a part of herself. Her love is brighter than hope and deeper than curses.
if you ask me exactly what that entails, I'd guess that her magic an amalgamation of hope and despair that becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
There's a slight connotation to barrier in that it is used to mean a wall protecting a space, whereas kekkai refers to a restricted space. The means by which the zone is enclosed aren't actually implied by the word and so they can be anything.
Therefore, whenever you translate 'kekkai', you have to consider the context it's being used in. You might use 'field', 'zone', 'labyrinth', 'barrier', 'fence', etc.
Kyubey says a bunch of times that the greatest amount of energy comes from the phase transition of emotions. What I think happened is Homura, having accepted her despair, transformed it all into something else, love.
He also says, "I don't understand!" so I don't really know what to believe.
This is where some new interview translations would really come in handy.
Are you kidding, interviews always make things worse.
These are the same thing.
How an interview will make things worse when currently we don't know what the fuck happened?
i really liked the series, should i watch this fucking movie?
by looking at what you guys discuss about it (WHO IS LE BEST WAIFU????) and how sayaka has tons of screentime, im not really hyped for watching it
It actually does have plot advancement. We just care about the girls.
>we don't know what the fuck happened?
There were 5 minutes of exposition about what happened. Are the camrip subs really that bad?
And only explain the "Why", they don'tt explain the "How" or "When".
Contrary to what /a/ might tell you, it's not our business as to what you do or do not enjoy.
You might like it, you might love it, and you might hate it. How the fuck should we know? Watch it and find out.
No, the camrip makes it very clear what happened.
>sayaka has tons of screentime
They explain all of those.
Because people will just have stupid disagreements over what the interviews actually meant and death of the author and a bunch of stupid shit anyway.
>Homura Akemi is dead
The bare essentials, sure. But there are some questions raised. Why is Homura a special case? Did she get the ability to master her own despair because the isolation field made her a witch inside her own soul gem? Maybe it's because she became a witch in order to protect Madoka rather than curse the world?
What is Ai as a source of magic? Is it exclusive from hope and despair? Maybe it's despair colored by love instead of curses? Maybe it's love-colored despair AND hope?
Did Homura actually take control of her own despair at that moment? Or did she do it long ago? Maybe the wings in episode 12 are the result of her conquering her own despair? Maybe she planned this and used Kyubey as a tool to summon Madoka so she could enact the Rebellion? Maybe all of her revelations in the dream world are simply because she has amnesia and doesn't remember her purpose?
There's a lot of holes that leave room for all sorts of speculation.
Welcome to the world of interpreting art.
I think the 'telling Kyubey about Madoka' part of Ep 12 is a red herring in that sense. I mean, Homura couldn't possibly have known the Incubators would have a means to observe and capture Madoka. She could theorize, but it's not much of a plan if you base it on 'maybe's.
That said, she could've half-planned it, as in, she was fighting for Madoka's world with hope at first, but when despair took hold, that's when the idea of Rebellion came to her.
art comes in all shapes and forms
hell shitting on a blank canvas is considered art too
>Maybe she planned this and used Kyubey as a tool to summon Madoka so she could enact the Rebellion?
God, just shut up already, you faggot, at that time in the story she has no reason to rebel, she saw the law of cycles as a good thing at that time, is only after her talk with Madoka in the field of flowers that she change her mind.
I know, it's fantastic what they did with Rebellion, infusing it with so much thoughtful imagery and leaving room for fanwanking because the creators adore the idea of the series becoming bigger than them.
But this is /a/. Without clarity in the canon, how am I supposed to tell someone their interpretation is wrong and they're a faggot?
You can't. Urobochi likes his vague stuff.
Tiempo de celebración, ¿no?
Akemi Homura es muerte. Es hora de fiesta!
>Akemi Homura es muerte.
Akemi Homura esta muerta*
You're missing some articles and an exclamation point there, buddy.
Again, the QB thing is a stretch and I don't actually subscribe to that theory.
But I also need to point out to you that the flower-field scene isn't necessarily the climactic point of Homura's motivations. Her own dream world took her memories of ever having succumbed to despair, so who knows what she was thinking before Kyubey isolated her. Also, in the field she doesn't discover anything new--she simply remembers what her purpose was before Madoka became a god. When Madoka ascended, Homura felt helpless to stop her, but in the flower field she realizes she shouldn't have given up her ambitions without a fight. She should've used any read: pragmatic means necessary to stop Madoka from sacrificing herself.
>in the field she doesn't discover anything new
Yes she does, she gets the idea that Madoka is suffering being a god. In the Madokami universe, Homura wasn't brooding about "oh no Madoka is suffering out there, if only I had stopped her from making that wish". That's an idea she only came up with in Rebellion.
Just fuck off, you know quite well that this is a stupid theory that only makes Homura truly evil and selfish.
>Maybe it's love-colored despair AND hope?
This. I think love is a fusion of hope and despair, at least in terms of Soul Gem magic. Homura implies as much with her little speech about it.
She doesn't need it pointed out that Madoka sacrificed her human life--that's pretty obvious. Homura simply resigned herself to her fate in the new world and contented herself with following the faint glimmer of hope like she'd always done. Homura is a fatalist throughout the series and that doesn't change. She's always reactionary and never puts forth her best effort to change anything.
It's in Rebellion that she actually resolves to change herself and live up to her name.
The change is that Madoka in the flower field said she wouldn't want to leave anyone behind, that it would be too hard for her, thus giving Homura the idea that it wasn't what Madoka really wanted and she was just forced into it because of the circumstances (i.e. Walpurgis would destroy the city otherwise if she didn't).
I think that's the ideal interpretation for Dualism because it posits a new polarity--laws versus desires. Madoka/Nagisa/Sayaka have their witches under control because Law of Cycles, so it would be interesting to see Kyouko and Mami conquer their despair in the name of love.
Homura was a fatalist in the series with respect to her own fate after she learned the truth about witches. She had no hope for herself and dedicated it all to saving Madoka. Before that revelation and her promise to Madoka, Homura probably hoped to live happily as a magical girl alongside Madoka.
Homura was never a fatalist with respect to Madoka. She made her wish literally over Madoka's dead body.
Well, I don't think it should be too easy to do what Homura did. But I could see Homura giving Kyouko and Mami loaned power-ups to let them use their witch forms.
But Madoka has always been like that--see timelines 1 and 3. To posit that Homura isn't aware that Madoka puts her compassion for others over her own self-preservation... that's ridiculous.
Again, if you watch the flower field scene, you'll see Homura get flashbacks to the series. One notable flashback is right when her eyes widen as she has the epiphanic moment. The hallway scene flashes for a moment.
>"Kaname Madoka, do you value your own life? Do you think that your family and friends are important to you?"
>"If they are, then you should never think of changing yourself. Otherwise, you will lose everything that is precious to you."
I hate the fact that if faggots are persistent enough with this stupid idea Shinbo will pander to them even though doesn't have any sense thematically and doesn't follow the message of the series.
>he thinks Shinbo won't pander to the largest crowd with the largest wallet
I'd give you a serious reply, but you'll just post a picture of Madoka flipping me off and write, "Fuck off."
>never puts forth her best effort to change anything.
Wat, all she did was put in her best effort to save Madoka
She doesn't hold a fatalist view, these are simply what she experiences. She's proven right time and time again, so it's not Homura that thinks this, it's just how it is.
You could call her a realist(or at least that's what Urobuchi calls her), but a fatalist would not care about her mission. To say she doesn't even try is silly.
I don't get it, what exactly did Homura do to the Incubators at the end?
I just don't understand at all!
Rape, she's just a rapist.
It's entirely possible that she knew it was meaningless but kept going anyway.
>I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well. So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
>I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well. So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
>But then I realized it. The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
>When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain, that was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig.
How many /a/nons here haven't read Higurashi?
If you ask me, it should be a required reading.
I second this.
>tfw I think the anime is about as good as the VN is
>I too have a right to pursue a happy life.
>The difficult part is to work out a compromise for that right.
Not enough, apparently.
(Ugh, this is so stiff, how does she wear it...) Homu.
Imgur album's up now
thanks to whoever translated this, these are great
Sayaka feels so out of character in this.
Yeah I'm not detecting too much of a bitch either.
Homura pls I don't want to fap to you.
I'm pretty sure I'm incapable of sexualizing Homu. I have this image saved because all I can think about it is how cute her belly and her expression are.
>I'm pretty sure I'm incapable of sexualizing Homu.
though I sexualize Madoka, which is worse.
Her madonkadonk is too lewd. It can't be helped.
Welcome to doujin.
That's because Homu specializes in legs and this image hides too much of them.
>implying Homura stand a single chance against cheerleader Mami
I-I need to find more of this official art ;_;
sexualize Nagisa when?
Mami pls go
>implying Sayaka isn't a total Kyouko fan girl after seeing all the time lines
here you go then. You may lick your goddess's feet.
No one can resist.
>implying there isn't a mother-daughter relation between them
It is even implied in their freaking names, explicit in spanish. You people disgust me sometimes.
Huh, I had not noticed that Madoka has the Soul Gem of Homura.
I prefer onee-sama/imouto relationship
That works too.
Nagisa a shit, I hope she die in the second season.
they're both acting way over the top silly based on misunderstandings
it's a comedy
Your mum a shit. Nagisa will keep on living and you will learn to like it.
Someone knows where this scene is from?
I can't recall it.
Is from the pachinko game.
It's a joke. Like calling Char a pedophile.
It's originally from Luminous.
God dammit anons. Don't listen to the guys who said, "Skip the movies." Why would you do that? You should be rewatching the series every so often anyway. May as well see the movies once.
It's from the first movie.
I don't get it guys.
The new stuff they drew for the first two movies is super soft and cute and Ume-like.
Yet, Rebellion's style steps away from that...
Why? Don't they love the wide anymore?
I rewatched the first movie 2 days ago and it's not from that. It uses the same room design as the bluray release which is very different
Yes it is.
I know I'm late but if your friends spoiled everything in the series then they're terrible friends.
Watching the movies is worth it for "wo ist die kase" alone
>that sounds of bones breaking when Mami dies
Goofy looking bitch.
The cutest goofy looking bitch.
That balance is fairly impressive actually.
But is she cuter in Nagisa or Bebe form?
Nagisa a shit.
That is up to each one to decide.
They are all cute but witch form is best form IMO
Nagisa a cute
Why does Nagisa dress like a slut? Did Mami influence her?
Ume-tentei is a lust-crazed lesbian.
Which one is this from.
There are like 500 Madomanga out there.
I blame Sayaka, she seems to have pent too much time with her.
That's the Rebellion manga.
Rebellion manga adaptation volume 2.
Sayaka is best onee-chan.
>dressing like a slut
You mean Sayaka.
>best endowed girl
>outfit doesn't makes a show of her attributes
Yeah, no, go fuck yourself.
That's not Mami-onee-san.
Oh god Mami what happened to your hair
Sayaka's outfit is the best.
It's really not that bad actually.
Still drills 4 life
Mami's outfit is the best, this is not an opinion, it's just a fact.
This guy has taste.
Reminder that originally Mami was going to be red and Kyouko yellow.
Mami's is great on her but Homura's outfit is the best for Homura.
Homura's first design looked kinda like Mami.
Agreed, Homura doesn't have what it takes to "fill" the outfit of Mami.
I love an emotional back. There's just something about scenes like this.
And was also male, it looks like
Welp, good night everyone. Be careful and pray so Akuma doesn't rape on your sleep.
No, Sayaka's outfit is still the best.
I can't put the feeling into words. I guess... admiration? It's... silently tortured, yet determined sort of look.
If you like slut, sure.
You don't see that bulge?
can't rape the willing, etc.
Just look at that original Mami
I want fanart of the original outfit of Mami, that shoulder pad looks so great and that style of ranger is good too.
>little shitty cape
Sayaka a pure because of what she is, not what she wears.
Her outfit is objectively the sexiest though.
no, get the dicks out of your head
So, just how powerful is Akuma Homura?
I couldn't find any when I searched some time ago. I'ts not like I am not used to letdowns anyway.
We've been through this, Sayaka is a slut, this was made canon when they make SayaKyou canon.
Is such a shame, the outfit is so nice.
>there will never be another anime as epic as Madoka
That was before Madoka, genius
TTGL was truly epic.
>not the greatest thing since sliced bread
You should know, Gurren Laggan trascends space, time and reason therefore existing before and after Madoka at once!
"That's how Team Gurren rolls!"
And such epicness will never, EVER, be continued ;_;
Good riddance, Homura deserves to burn in the eternal hell flames.
Cape a shit.
>there will never be another madoka as anime as epic
Plz burn in hell
Come now, all are welcome in the cape's embrace.
>No Clara Dolls
What a heresy.
Clara dolls are bullies, they're not allowed.
Even though she did so on her own hands?
Like OP said, Homura Akemi is dead, and [Akuma] Homura killed her.
All Homuras deserve to burn.
>A girl have someone she likes
>So she is a slut
Homura did nothing wrong.
>tfw she always has to suffer anyway
Well, philosophically speaking, its a sound plot device. It answers the age old questions "What's the meaning of life and why are we here?" And the philosophy of the reason being because we have to recycle energy into the universe seems pretty sound.
Also, this plot device was used to paint QB more as a neutral antagonist rather than a straight up villain. This, I think, makes QB that much more of an interesting antagonist.
Also, yes, you are reading too much into this.
Thinking about Homura makes me happy.
Is she having a nightmare? Has a goofy face.
I guess it might be something like that.
Then Homura should wake her up, we can't have Madoka having nightmares.
But Homura is the nightmare.
That's silly, anon, Homura-chan is a cool and beautiful girl, she's not a nightmare.
Is it possible for a nightmare to be enjoyable?
You need to wake up, anon.
You'd have to be some kind of crazy masochist to find a nightmare enjoyable.
Let's just call it a weird dream then.
I hope someday they can have a nice sleep together.
Just keep this in mind:
Urobuchi is the -screenplay- writer, his job is to write the stuff you'll see in screen. As a screenplay writer, not all the things have to be deeply thought to make them work and you know what kind of writer Gen is. I'm sure if you ask him one of those questions he'll answer you A, and if you ask him again a few days later he'll answer you B.
I hope the writer they hire for the second season is better in exposition, the franchise really needs a lot of exposition, character intereccion and explain in detail the world of Homura.
Who is deserved to be a next writer if Butch left but they want to make sequel?
>go find some big super star somewhere, rig up a dyson sphere or something similar to suck it dry, reverse time, preferably into a parallel version, and do it all again
The tears of little girls are stronger than that.
Ryukishi07, to make a retard witch SOL.
Nasu for the crustacean sex.
Nisio for the sexual innuendo.
Oh boy, that reminds me of this:
Scan never. Translations never.
It's a shame, Ayanero works are always top notch.
left is delicious dfc
right is fat pig tits. which i also like
Must be from all that cheese.
Where the fuck other rebellion manga translation
Don't blame cheese.
Huh, now that I think about it, this Madoka would be probably the Madoka of the second season, she is going to try to approach Homura but she will reject her until one of them reach the breaking point.
Actually, most of their encounters is S1 were initiated by Homura. She will probably be even more scared, if anything.
Their relationship has changed since then, anon.
Madoka has always been drawn to Homura. She'll find Homura too intriguing to resist, even if Homura herself is cold.
Nisio would give *everyone* a haircut. Sayake would probably end up bald.
>Long haired Sayaka
>Short haired Kyouko
>Madoka cuts her twintails on a whim
Watch and learn, Gen. This is true suffering
But Mami without drills still look good.
I really love their relationship, no matter what, Madoka is always attracted to Homura.
What do you expect to happen when you eat tea and cake all day?
No, not like that.
She's still look good.
>Long haired Sayaka
I think Sayaka would look cute with Kanbaru's hairstyle.
That is heretical. The drills must continue.
Nigga, Mami look good in anything.
Would look better if she had a singular drill at the back of her head.
BD limited edition cover
The wait for AoA is getting more and more dubious.
Looks like an icon.
Quite literally took the smile right off my face.