So, Johan is all evil and serial killer because his mom might have loved him less than his sister?
What a crock of shit
Golden Boy? If I wanted to watch a genius get horny I'd videotape myself masturbating.
pls stop you fuckers
That's what he wanted you to believe, fucking amoeba. Get out of /a/ or you will be this retarded forever
Gurren Laggan not so good.
shut your mouth you edgy spastic!
I might be posting in a troll thread, but going to ask a serious question here, cause I honestly didn't understand what motivated Johan.
Why did he become a serial killer?
If you save someone's life and they turn around and kill a bunch of people, then it's all your fault.
Back to /lit/ with you
Because he was a product of a fucked up Neo-Nazi program
He was fucked up from the start, though. From back when he was in 511 Kinderheim.
Nothing. He doesn't have any motivation at all, that's why a lot of characters, like Lunge, say that he doesn't leave human presence. No ambition, no lust, no purpose. He is a motivator for other people; he pushes their buttons and make them chase him, but at the end of the day, they don't understand that he is completely empty. Nobody can call the "monster" by his true name.
All this maybe came from Kinderheim molding him into the perfect leader, or he is just a naturally born nihilist. He lives vicariously "seeing the ants move"
So, ultimately, what was the point of everything Tenma did, then?
> no dad
> Bonaparta comes to take one of the kids
> the kids were dressed the same so their mom doesn't know which one's which
> She wants to give the kid on her right but then changes his mind, Johan interprets this gesture as his mom hating his guts
> mom goes away and leaves Johan alone starving
> he reads the creepy and fucked-up storybook and loses his sense of identity
> his sister tells him the horrific tales at the red rose mansion and he embeds those memories as if they belong to him
> at kinderheim he is basically allowed to "shine" in the most fucked-up place possible, most likely he's the reason why everyone killed each-other in there
His initial MO was to basically kill his foster parents, he had mommy issues which lead to him to have a massive identity crisis. That's one interpretation.
The other possible interpretation would be that johan was just a fucked-up child from the begining and no amount of trauma big or small would change that. He's just innate evil
>She wants to give the kid on her right but then changes his mind, Johan interprets this gesture as his mom hating his guts
But she kept Johan, so shouldn't a kid that age just interpret it as being preferred to the other?
he asks tenma in the last episode: "was she protecting me or was she wanting to give me but made a mistake?"
The fact that she changed her mind was the creepy part essentially, plus she still left him alone after that so it's probable that she wanted to give Johan in the first place.
Aria? it's a show about nothing
It's pretty stupid, though. Bonaparta didn't specifically ask for the girl, right? In that case, she could've checked who is who and kept whoever it was that she preferred.
I interpreted that as what she did. SHE knew who was and who and made the conscious decision to fuck one of them over. The moral of the story was that SHE was the monster - because she chose.
> his sister tells him the horrific tales at the red rose mansion and he embeds those memories as if they belong to him
I thought that's what she thought to have happened but it was actually the other way around. Been a while since i watched it though.
no, it's the other way around. It's the scene where johan and nina meet before ruhenheim
and johan says all the story but in the flashbacks there's a girl with long hair and girly shoes
and then nina tells him that he's wrong
>but in the flashbacks there's a girl with long hair and girly shoes
Johan was also in the same clothes with long hair, though. So that doesn't mean anything.
But yeah, it was Nina (forgot her original name) who was at Red Rose Mansion. Johan pretty much took her memories as if they happened to him.
Johan is a complete and total psychopath. You know, the movie kind that has no guilt or emotions but still isn't sitting in a corner doing coke just to feel something.
What I really wanted to know more was why is he so powerful. Like okay, he kills people (mostly by shooting) but how the fuck is he able to control multiple factions and people, trick them like it's nothing, charm them and manipulate them and all that.
Does he have a Death Note?
also franz bonaparta was dissapointing shit
I mean, the guy who made johan? they even had similar haircut, now that's a fucking monster
but it ended with a whimper afterall
highly improbable that charisma would get him that far. he's a pretty boy dealing with neo-nazi and various actual criminals
hitler was a failure for most of his young life before going into politics
I still can't believe how much people go on and on about "muh nihilism" and that Johan "is a psychopath and was always like this". What triggered everything is Johan's mom made Sophie's choice where he ended up getting picked but the question that was always in his mind was "M-MAYBE SHE MEANT TO GIVE ME UP AND NOT ANNA!". Thats it. That was his entire motivation and why he gave up on the world, nothing bad ever happened to Johan until Kinderheim but the potential for how things happened are what fucked him up. The ending to Monster is terrible and the reason for what Johan did is fucking stupid.
The ending didn't achieve anything. Johan never changed.
It was just disappointing and ended what was building up so well on pretty much a wet fart
This is pretty much what I feel about Monster. Monster is the fastest I've marathoned something, cause it was edging me on, promising delicious cake at the end, and the ending was do disappointing that I have decided never to marathon a long show again.
serial killer/sociopaths stories always end with silly whimpers. Even in real life.
Like, take Ted Bundy's case. One of the most common explanation was that he was fucked-up because his first girlfriend dumped him, which is why most of his victims resembled each-other.
Ted's explanation before his execution was his addiction to porn.
that's so monstrous and fascinating about them. There's nothing to explain about them, nothing to justify their evil deeds, they just come and go and bring evilness for a couple of years/decades.
>cause it was edging me on, promising delicious cake at the end
I was marathoning it but as they keep going deeper and deeper into his past I realized it was going to be stupid. After the neo-nazi camp it was obvious that nothing was going to top that short of being lucifer incarnate or some shit.
They spent about 10 episodes on a fucking picture book. I dropped it then and there, probably 20 episodes from the end. I don't regret it. It just kept dragging on and on. The pacing in the anime was fucking terrible.
I dunno, man. I thought the pacing was great. I watched 30 episodes (not at the start; had only 14 left after that) in one day, and that is the most number of episodes of a single show that I have watched in a day.
But then the fucking useless end.
>serial killer/sociopaths stories always end with silly whimpers
more like anime villains
> i'm gonna start the fucking apocalypse because i miss my waifu ;_;
What makes the difference to me is that the ending to those other Sociopath stories it was caused by at least something HAPPENING. Johan was fucked long before he even went to Kinderheim even though NOTHING happened to him, everything happened to Anna. It made Johan feel like a whiny baby to me and ruined his character, he was so upset because he COULD have had bad things happen to him even though nothing did. Combine this with everything else the entire ending was just plain bad and really ruined everything.
Then again, its just all according to keikaku when it comes to Urasawa and his inability to write a good ending. Pluto is the best he has done and it was the most abrupt ending I have ever seen but at least it didn't ruin everything for once.
This. Nips can't into good endings.
you didn't get my post. those aren't real or satisfying reasons, those are rationalizations made either by the killers or the people studying them.
they are born that way, that's all
Johan did not know that he didn't experience those thins at Red Rose Mansion. He genuinely believed that and blamed those events as a justification. Then Nina told him the truth, and he started blaming his mother.
>they are born that way, that's all
Your logic is as disgusting as your lack of regard for proper capitalization. He was a sociopath, IE a person created by his environment. Johan was shown to be fine before everything terrible happened, Nina mentioned that she remembered as a kid things were happy and fine when they were living in that apartment cut off from the world. There is general reasoning behind everything and its only rare occasions that true psychopathy, innate warped mentality that is unaffected by influences, shows itself.
That moment was the defining moment for how Johan snapped and it was from nothing happening to him, it was just a poor rip off of Sophie's choice. I want to say he almost even plainly states that that was the moment that he lost all hope for the world but I am not going to stand by that because its been a while since I read and I am not gonna go out of my way to find a citation.
>Johan did not know that he didn't experience those thins at Red Rose Mansion. He genuinely believed that and blamed those events as a justification.
This is true. But learning the truth didn't change his actions whatsoever. He just shifted the blame and went on his merry way.
Didn't this have some Shakespearean elements?
Nina is the least credible source when talking about past memories. not to mention that we see scenes with them after the scene at 3frogs and she still finds him to be a normal kid. The change happens when she shoots him in the head
hurr durr, Sophie's Choice rip-off, only the fucking premise of making a tought choice related to her children is the same
the important element which all of you faggots seem to miss is the fact that she CHANGED her fucking mind
> ok, take thi... NO WAIT TAKE THIS ONE
That's the most important part of that scene. Why did she do that?
the explanation might be because johan was always a little fucked-up, and so she wanted to give him away
Kishōtenketsu is the term for the Japanese and all around eastern narrative structure. Instead of the whole process we use in the west of introduction/exposition, inciting incident, rising action, climax, falling action, conclusion/denouement the eastern structure is just introduction, explanation, twist, conclusion/denoument. The Japanese do not feel things like winding down a story is necessary and thats why so many do not incorporate build up to their endings and always end it so suddenly and do not really resolve the threads of their storyline outside of "everything was fine, go home".
Psyhos arn't logical in the conventional sense, they see the world differently. That's why their motivation looks ridicules to normal people.
That's why their actions are so misterious and thus scary, give me a evil I can understand over a evil I can't any day.
>The change happens when she shoots him in the head
No, he was warped by that point already and thats why it all happened. The bullet didn't magically change how his brain worked. The whole thing about her changing her mind was because like any mother she couldn't live with the decision she made and couldn't bring herself to pick just one. That one point fucked Johan even though nothing happened to him, he merely was overthinking the entire dire scenario and became a sociopath from his inability to let go of the question "was she really trying to save me?" and that is why he felt like a shitty character because his motivations were fucking nothing.
The problem is that innate psychopathy comes off as bad writing because you are making a character's motivation fucking nothing. I would argue most famous cases of claimed innate psychopathy can always be explained by inciting incidents that developed their sociopathy to an extreme state but I do not want to open that can of worms.
>No, he was warped by that point already and thats why it all happened.
That's not what I said, what I wanted to say was "this is when Nina realizes what her brother really is". That's when she found out that Johan is fucked-up, when she saw the lieberts dead.
> The whole thing about her changing her mind was because like any mother she couldn't live with the decision she made and couldn't bring herself to pick just one.
except she also left Johan alone after that.
> That one point fucked Johan even though nothing happened to him, he merely was overthinking the entire dire scenario and became a sociopath from his inability to let go of the question "was she really trying to save me?" and that is why he felt like a shitty character because his motivations were fucking nothing.
How does that not fit into the "he's a fucked-up psychopath since forever and he's only blaming someone else for his faults"?
Of course, it's all anime jap bullshit so we're overthinking it. But this ambiguous bullshit behind a serial killer's motives and/or his changing point always existed both in fiction and in real life.
>That one point fucked Johan even though nothing happened to him
> nothing happened to him
She was dressing him like a girl. She saw his twin sister getting taken away. His mom screamed at him asking him to stop crying. Then she abandoned him. He sat alone for a couple of weeks reading the storybook.
I'd say there were plenty of bad things happening to him. People react differently to traumatic events.
the moral of this story is don't piss off a pregnant woman.
It's that hate of hers that is transferred to the baby and then it become a new Hitler.
He proved Johan existed and ended the chain of events without having to take life.
But then again ambiguous ending. I honestly don't think Johan will start serial killing again, though.
That was the point. The monsters who supposedly made Johan were ultimately just men - broken, tired old men.
Johan simply can never be understood as he is a complete sociopath. He is the eponymous "Monster" of the show. Rather than try to understand what his motivations are (which is impossible to do), you should just connect the plot pieces on your own. There are a lot of things there that are not explicitly stated but make sense when you figure it out.
>There are a lot of things there that are not explicitly stated but make sense when you figure it out
1. The experiences of one individual has no bearing on another's.
2. He's supposed to be like the Devil. The Devil doesn't need to lift a finger himself because his charisma can instill his will into others. Everyone regards him as inhuman, remember.
3. It's a story. A mango. It doesn't need to be completely realistic. Monster is a realistic story in the sense that many of the characters end up feeling real and complex to the readers.
I thought the ending fit perfectly. It tied everything up and suited the themes of the story.
How would you guys have ended it, if you didn't care for it?
Just wait for the HBO series. Everything will be better explained
Its not happening. We've last heard about it when? April?
You missed the entire part that what made Johanso powerful was that hewent through the entire Red Rose Manor brainwashing trials by proxy through Nina/Anna, and then made the brainwashing techniques his own. f you look at his manner, seech, what and how he talks to everyone else it's obvious he's a walking engine of mind control, hence how everyone ,especially weak minded plebs end up going crazy/and/or doing whatever he wants.