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Shirou and the TouMAN excange worlds. Shirou goes to the Raildex (at the beginning of the light novel) the TouMAN goes to the Nasuverse to fight in the Holy grail war. What happen?
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You can't summon servants with the Imagine Breaker.
The ability to copy stuff doesn't protect you from high voltage.

Both die.
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>>101088726
>You can't summon servants with the Imagine Breaker.

why not?
>The ability to copy stuff doesn't protect you from high voltage.

>implying
>>
Touma would probably do pretty well in the Grail War, but I doubt he'd get along with Rin or be strong enough to fight Gilgamesh.

Shirou would probably not be unfortunate enough to meet as many people as Touma does, and would probably end up cooking for Index 24-7.
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>>101088726
It's not the volts that kill you, dumbass.
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>>101088826
>why not?
You know... magic.
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>>101088726
Shirou's body is made of steel, he'll just conduct the electricity and harmlessly ground it.
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>>101088726
nonono, maybe you summon a "No-Servant" and no attached to the rules. but the damage to the master maybe was huge
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>>101088650
Touma can kill servants without even trying, on the other hand without avalon Shirou is dead the second he meets Misaka or Stiyl
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The only reason Shirou survives in the routes is either because of Avalon or connections to his future self.Touman boned.
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>>101089010
Touma can't survive UBW.
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>>101089122
He'd most likely be teamed up with Tohsaka.
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>>101089122
I don't know, he is punching Gods in his novel
He may be able to do it, after all dodging stuff is his thing
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>>101089193
Touma can't survive Tohsaka.
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>>101089247
Touma can survive Index, Tohsaka is a piece of cake.
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Touma can't summon a servant, the whole system is incompatible with IB.
If he can survive on his own long enough, he might be able to end the war by IB-ing the Greater Grail. Otherwise he'll have to actually win in combat, and while he might be able to dispell servants on contact, most masters would simply kick his ass in hand-to-hand combat. Or even kill him.

Shirou as he was at the start of FSN isn't going to be able to do much, there's not much to trigger his tracing skills, activate Avalon, or any Archer for him to emulate. End of FSN Shirou might be able to go quite far, however, depending on the route in question.
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>>101089385
How is he going to deal with all the STDs?
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>>101089492
Same way he deals with them in Index: no Sex.
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>>101088650
Emiya Shirou.
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>>101089492
Sakura doesn't count as a Tohsaka anymore. Silly anon.
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Servants use magoi, or did everyone forget Saber's mana replenishment scene (dragon). Touma can counter / reflect high level magic so he has a chance against servant class / could probably break the servant seals on hands.
Shirou has hax Excalibur trace, but accelerator could probably reverse all vectors into his face.
I just like Touman more than shirou though.
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>>101088726
So he summons it with his left hand, dumbass.
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>>101089805
He can't use magic period.
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>>101089805
>No magic ability
>IB outright suppresses his esper ability
>No catalyst, IB would effectively be an anti-catalyst
So he's summoning who? And how?
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>>101089805
Even without IB, he's had esper brain training.
When he uses magic his veins all burst open and stuff.
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>>101089856
Did Shirou even use magic to summon Saber?
Besides, he can just team up with another person's Servant, be Tohsaka's third wheel, etc. His hand is really the best weapon in that universe, there's no way nobody would notice. And his bad luck is bound to get him in the middle of a Servant fight.
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>>101089720
>Servants use magoi, or did everyone forget Saber's mana replenishment scene (dragon). Touma can counter / reflect high level magic so he has a chance against servant class / could probably break the servant seals on hands.
Care to say that again in a way that makes sense?
>Shirou has hax Excalibur trace, but accelerator could probably reverse all vectors into his face.
He could beat Accelerator if it occured to him to use Gae Bolg. If he still had his dad's guns and origin bullets, that'd work too.
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>>101089247
She's a long range using mage, Touma would flatten her.
his only real problem would be berserker.
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>>101090005
Accel can live with a pierced heart, and the bullets only work on magicians
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There is only one ending for Touma.
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>>101089944
>Did Shirou even use magic to summon Saber?
He had magic circuits and the innate ability to use magecraft, plus a very powerful catalyst. The Grail system picked him because options for masters were scarce, Touma has even less aptitiude for the Grail than a regular joe.
And Touma could beat servants only to have his ass handed to him by the likes of Kirei or Souichirou.
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Nothing, theyre exactly the same moralfag character with nonsensical abilities.
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>>101089897
Aiwass, the war is to much fun to ignore it
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Introducing Touma to the Nasu-verse triggers the Ilya route.
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>>101089720
The problem is that servants are also really fast/strong, same as saints which beat the living shit out of him every time.
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>>101089897

He summons Jesus. Or himself
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>>101090124
Oh, ok.
>And Touma could beat servants only to have his ass handed to him by the likes of Kirei or Souichirou.
Which happens to Shirou as well, really. Shirou himself is a joker card too, Nasu likes the idea. See Shiki.
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Whatever happens, the Fukou da train won't stop.
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>negate magic
>suddenly, swords
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>>101090077
>Accel can live with a pierced heart
The spear fills the entire body with thorns upon successfully striking the heart, and does more damage than the target's max HP, it's guarenteed instant death if it successfully hits the heart. Even Arc will die if it successfully hits her.
>the bullets only work on magicians
ESP in Raildex is an archaic form of magic anyway. It won't make a difference. Rule Breaker might work as well, come to think of it.
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>>101088829
>Shirou
>Cooking for Index 24/7

Pretty much same role Saber already fills.
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>>101090124
Kirei ain't shit without command spells and when touma touches kirei's arm he'll probably lose them.
Souichirou is also only peak human without caster buffs and touma has precog.
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>>101090078
I will use this in the next inevitable shirou v. touma thread.
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>>101090012
>She's a long range using mage, Touma would flatten her.
Tohsaka 'Punches servants to near-death' Rin is a long range mage now? The girl who can contend with Kirei? Yeah, no. She kung fu's his ass like Tsuchimikado did.
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>>101090005
>Care to say that again in a way that makes sense?
Everything in FSN works via magic: Servants, their attacks, the families' conventional magic, Soichirou's reinforcements, the Command Seals, etc. If Touma touches it, it stops working.
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Does Illya die when Touma hugs her?
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>>101090277
>Kirei ain't shit without command spells
He's trained in the most dangerous chinese martial art or whatever. Any martial art (Kirei, Soichirou, even Rin) can fuck up Kamijou's ass.
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>>101090243
Can't Accel just vector the lance away? I know that it is supposed to be unavoidable and always letal, but I remember the lance missing a couple of times in the anime
Also, esp is not magic
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Wouldn't Shirou refuse to stop fighting against Kanzaki and end up getting killed? Plus she could just stab him to death without fear of her sword getting IB'd.
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>>101090012
Rin can become temporarily faster and stronger than Kirei with reinforcement, she can bait Touma with some magic spells and then blitz him. And she's very durable, she survived pretty long when Berserker was trying to crush her
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>>101090366
OHSHI-
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Touma can't summon Saber. If he can, he summons Saber and then breaks her by accidentally touching her. After that, what's he supposed to do? Magic is secretive, he's not a magi, nobody would pay attention past trying to kill him. Would probably save the student body from Blood Fort Andromeda I guess.

Even if we assume Touma manages to stay in the war, he still can't compete. Worst case scenario is Lancer is brought in, the only thing that defends against Gae Bolga is defense which Touma doesn't have or luck, which Touma has an F- rank in. Berserker would probably fuck his shit without touching him, if they do touch seeing what IB would do to God Hand would be interesting I guess. Caster's fucked but she's always fucked and would rely on plots other then direct combat anyway. Rider is probably fast enough to fuck his shit, but it's a mixed bag. Archer has enough tricks that it's a wonder he loses to anybody. IB doesn't really have anything on GoB either. And both Assassins would kill him without getting touched. Hell, Kirei and Souichirou could take out Touma hands down.

Touma is scary for a lot universes, but not Nasuverse where everyone is the most broken character ever.
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TOUMA SUMMONS BOTH FSN LANCER AND ZERO LANCER, HOW LONG WOULD THEY LAST?
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>>101090277
>Kirei ain't shit without command spells and when touma touches kirei's arm he'll probably lose them.
Kirei was an executioner before he entered the Grail War, he would've had to contend with bullet-timing vampires and other things. Touma isn't doing jack to even 5th Grail War Kirei. Plus Touma has to touch spell marks directly, as shown with the first arc with Index, not that it'll make any difference.
>Souichirou is also only peak human without caster buffs and touma has precog.
Souichirou with buffs could one-shot servants, without it he was stil a top-notch assassin and martial artist. Touma got punked by Tsuchimikado. Nothing else needs to be said.
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What happens if the Invisible Thing comes out?
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>>101090431
Touma would inevitably end up used as a secret weapon for Rin, Caster or Zouken.
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>Touma can make servants dissapear by touching them
Nope, he could wound them heavily by touching them, but to completely make them dissapear he'd need to touch their core which is either the brain or heart
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>>101090490
He brofists them right after meeting them
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>>101090505
It's pretty weak, actually.
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>>101090420
He's reacted to far faster things than Tohsaka with his precognition.
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>>101090385
>anime
silly anon, there is no Fate/Stay night anime yet
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>>101090490
0.3 seconds
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>>101090497
Many would have also gotten punked by Tsuchimikabro. Dude's style lies to you.
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>>101090277
Kirei is insanely good at fighting unarmed. Even with his lowered condition, he's still someone who would tear Touma apart.
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>>101090385
>
Can't Accel just vector the lance away? I know that it is supposed to be unavoidable and always letal, but I remember the lance missing a couple of times in the anime
The only way to avoid being struck in the heart once the attack begins is to have fate-defying good luck, which is the only reason it failed. Accel gets beaten up on a semi-regular basis by the handful of people on the planet capable of hurting him, his luck is pretty shitty
>Also, esp is not magic
Last I heard Raildex ESP is just an obsolete system of magic Crowley reintroduced. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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>>101090547
Still rapes any Servant though, it tanked a planet buster.
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Accel will succumb, finito.
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>>101090277
>Touma has precog
Because that sure helped Saber against him, huh?
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>>101090562
Fuck you he got his shit handed to him by Tsuchimikado, Rin was instructed in martial arts by Kirei himself Touma wouldn't stand a chance.
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>>101090638
Esper powers and magic have nothing in common. Magic was developed because people were jealous of Espers, that's it.

Esper powers are basically the bastard offspring of a reality marble and marble phantasm.
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>>101089856
>He can't use magic period.
This is obvious since he is male. What's your point again?
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>>101090657
Kuzuki had those insane caster buffs. without them saber would have annihilated him.
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>>101090574
Why don't we add in Stiyl while we're at it?
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>>101090695
Yeah, back in volume 4. Touma kicked the shit out of Aogami with a broken arm and an open wound in his gut in NT 9.
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>>101090638
ESP and magic work on different rules and produce different effects in the world, the only similar thing between the two is the observable powers you obtain
Magic functions taking advantage of the things that exist or existed in the world, espers rewrite the world on a fundamental level to manifest their powers
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>>101090615
But can his ideals stand up to the verbal smackdown that the TouMAN will surely deliver?
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>>101090753
Read the OP dipshit
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>>101090770

Kotomine and Touma would actually get along
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>>101090698
>Magic was developed because people were jealous of Espers, that's it.
That's Gemstones, not Espers. Espers were introduced by Crowley, it's a bastardised form of an old system of magic.
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>>101090770
More like, can Touma deal with all dat YUETSU?
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>>101090816
Doesn't mention which Touma we're using chuckles.
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>>101090770
He could tank Shirou's ideals, bitch. He can tank anything, and is probably even able to turn Touma's argument against itself.
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>>101090851
>Gemstones
>Not Espers
Have you been reading the wiki?
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>>101090851
Technically you are right but gemstones are espers, and Aleister's method to create them has nothing to do with magic
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>>101090638

If anything, the what is keeping the lance in the world is Lancer's power, who subsequently gets his power from the grail and his master.

So, if Touma was to touch a servant, they probably wouldn't instantly poof. Their Mana would probably deplete rapidly, but not rapidly enough for it to stop a servant from killing him.
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>>101090942
Are you being deliberately thick? Gemstones are the only naturally occuring ones, Espers have to undergo the special opperations.
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>>101088650
>Touma wins the war
>Touches the Grail

????
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>>101091016
>Drugs and stimulation
>Old magical system
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>>101091016
They produce AIM, can't use magic and have a personal reality
they are both the same on a fundamental level
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I've not seen/read much fate, but don't the mages in it work through some kind of magic circuits or something? I don't know how literal that is, but would Touma just touching them fuck with that?
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>>101091016
And that's literally the only difference.

Your "archaic form of magic" line is BS.
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>>101091043
>Fukou da
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>>101091079

The Magic Circuits are an actual thing which is located inside the body, so I doubt it would do anything since he isn't touching them directly.
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>>101091079
Those exist in the soul, I don't think that Touma's touch would hurt them any more than it hurts espers.
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>>101091067
>Implying it's just drugs and stimulation
Smirking Crowley.jpg

>>101091068
That's irrelevant, the subject was on the Espers created due to Crowley's system. Saying that magic was introduced due to jealousy of them is wrong, since they're not naturally occuring.
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>Touma summons Saber
>Shakes her hand
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>>101088650
I would stop watching/reading Raildex and start reading Fate.
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>>101091173
So you're just arguing over semantics? Gemstones are Espers, saying the magicians were jealous of Espers is still correct.
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>>101091079
They probably wouldn't be able to use magecraft so long as they remain in contact with IB. Which is completely useless when most modern Nasuverse magi can fight without magecraft.
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>>101091173
If anything he should have said that magic was created because they were jealous of talented people in general, but in the context of the conversation the difference between espers and gemstones is irrelevant
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>>101091298
>Raildex ESP is just an obsolete system of magic Crowley reintroduced
>Esper powers and magic have nothing in common. Magic was developed because people were jealous of Espers, that's it.
The first part denotes ESP as introduced by Crowley, not naturally occuring ESP. Pay attention next time.
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>>101090710
His piont is on the period
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What stops Shirou from getting blown the fuck out by Innocentius?
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>>101091005
>So, if Touma was to touch a servant, they probably wouldn't instantly poof.
IB acts as a fundamental constant in that it takes precedence over all else. In this case, any construct involved with magic will instantly be deleted if coming into contact with IB.

That said, Touma would get wrecked in F/SN even if he could summon Saber since he doesn't have the advantages that Shirou had. Considering servants are 'supposed' to move at the speed of sound, he wouldn't be able to block anything with IB. Conversely, Shirou would get destroyed in Indexverse for pretty obvious reasons. He's not so special anymore in a world where everyone has a marble phantasm/reality marble.
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>>101091448
The bone of his sword.
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>>101090638
The thing is, the gay bulge isn't a magical lance that instantly pierces whatever it wants. All it does is reverse causality so that it will eventually hit; the motion still has to happen. So even if Accelerator fails his dice roll, gay bulge will still never be able to pierce his AIM and be stuck in a continuous loop until either Lancer calls off the attack or Accel drops his barrier.
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>>101091448
Rho Aias and augmented speed from traced weapons.
BoS Shirou royally fucked though.
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>>101091380
The point of the discussion was this line of bullshit
>Raildex ESP is just an obsolete system of magic Crowley reintroduced
The dude was using gemstones and espers as synonyms, wich is technically wrong, but it doesn't make a diference
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>>101091503
>He's not so special anymore in a world where everyone has a marble phantasm/reality marble.
No, he was never special. Shirou was always about hard work, Archer-updates just let him hop decades of work.
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>>101091503

I haven't gone much into raildex, but what about when fights Stiyl's fire thingy in volume 1? I thought the reason it didn't go away was because it was getting a lot of magic from elsewhere. I sorta figure something like that would happen.
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>>101091583
>the motion still has to happen
Actually, it doesn't. The thrusting of the lance is a formality and nothing more.
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>>101090385

Reguardless of if esp is magic or not. The system of magic in raildex and the system in nasuverse are very different. In raildex though esper abilities are tied to the person's spirit, the more powerful the esper the more it affects their mind body and spirit. The origin bullets also don't need to interact with "magic", they need to interact with the origin of a thing, and their ability travels through the Prana the mage is using to interact with the mage's magic circuit. I think the esper powers are a suitable conduit to the spirit and origin of the esper, in the same way that magic is a suitable conduit to the mage.

However the affects of the origin bullets may be very different on the esper than they are on a mage. Because the basis of the origin bullet is to cut and tie the magic circuits of the mage, causing them to misfire and fuckup. This particular effect may not do anything of note to an esper, or it may cause them to catastrophically self destruct. I would however suggest that it would be a bad thing for accel to be shot with one of the origin bullets, because its certainly not going to do anything good, even if the bullet itself doesn't get through.
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>>101091583
Nope, the heart is pierced because the lanced moved. With Gae Bolg the lance moves because the heart is pierced
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>>101091503
Unless the command seals and/or constant prana flow from the Grail and Master prevent the Servant's destruction like with Innocentus or the Ice Ship. Hell, if Servant's are insta-gibbed on contact, wouldn't Gaia's whole field get destroyed, killing all life on Earth instantly?

>>101088650
What happens when an ESPER is literally dragged into the physical manifestation of someone else's personal reality? Would they still function? What happens when Misaki tries to read the mind of someone like Shirou? While it would be exceedingly difficult, a post-UBW Shirou could do some damage in the Raildex-verse. He wouldn't start gathering people like TouMAN, though. He'd probably also royally fuck up Crowley's plans.
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>>101091784
If it uses the "magic energy" as a conduit that's more of a reason it wouldn't work, an esper's AIM already mess with the flow of the magic energy, it works like an impurity or an insulating, the bullet would never reach the esper core traveling in that
Also I don't remember those bullets being used on anything that is not magic, your guess is as good as mine I suppose
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>>101091661
>Formality
In regards to the 'outcome' yes, it is a formality. But the heart still has to physically be pierced by the Lance. This is most evident in F/HA with Bazette's double KO.

>>101091791
Sophistry. Either way, both has to happen regardless of the 'predetermined' outcome.
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>>101092012
>Hell, if Servant's are insta-gibbed on contact, wouldn't Gaia's whole field get destroyed, killing all life on Earth instantly?

Gaia doesn't have a field on earth.
Regardless, the actual mechanics of IB has fluctuated over the 9 or so volumes. It isn't too clearly defined, so we can't say for sure.
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>>101091784
>In raildex though esper abilities are tied to the person's spirit, the more powerful the esper the more it affects their mind body and spirit.

Not really. That idea comes from the level 5s being insane but that's mainly caused by AC traumatizing them, and because children tend to get inflated egos when you give them access to any kind of superpower.
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>>101092012
Espers work on their own reality, what is happening in the real reality or outside of their own reality should be more or less irrelevant
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>>101092189
They merely use "magic energy" as their conduit to fucking with the person's soul due to Kirei's Origin.
>your guess is as good as mine I suppose
By the same token, IB may not work on anything Nasuverse due to being a completely different form of magic than it was designed in.
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>>101092012
ESPERs project their own reality; nothing that occurs around them really affects their abilities in any way.
You seem to be very uneducated regarding Index, so please stop trying to pass of your speculation and uninformed opinions as fact.
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>>101090277
>touma has precog.

Only works against AIM and magic-related shit.
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>>101092337
Their own reality, but their calculations are grounded on their current reality. That was why Kakine's Dark Matter was such a bitch for Accelerator (for about ten seconds). Once they leave that reality, who knows what happens. UBW is a world composed of SWORD. Why would any of the constants be the same. Hell, Accelerator might just get stabbed Hrunting'ed to death due to Shirou's swords being made of SWORD, pulled from the SWORD dimension, following the physical laws of SWORD, thanks to Shirou literally being a SWORD.
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>>101092364
>By the same token, IB may not work on anything Nasuverse due to being a completely different form of magic than it was designed in.
And by such a token, magic in the Nasuverse may not even work in Index.
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>>101092498
>Their own reality, but their calculations are grounded on their current reality.
No, their powers are based on their PERCEPTION of their reality. There are no calculations based on the world itself, which is why you see physics being defied clearly in Index.

>That was why Kakine's Dark Matter was such a bitch for Accelerator (for about ten seconds).
Because Dark Matter isn't something that can be calculated/vectored? It had nothing to do with being a different reality anon.
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>>101092364
So, if it is due to Kirei's Origin, doesn't that mean that it can't work on other substances? or can you alter your origin?
IB destroys everything that corrodes reality, and magic in nasuverse seems to do that, specially Reality Marbles, I don't see why it shouldn't work
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>>101092012
Eh, it's unlikely he would mess up Crowley's plans. The only reason they got messed up in the first place is because of Hamazura, who is basically Batman with guns. Touma and Accelerator's actions were all manipulated to support the Keikaku.
>>
Just to clarify for people, IB as we understand it basically works as a reference point for how the world is supposed to work. Anything that doesn't work that way gets broken. Essentially it's Gaia packed into a right hand.

Though Touma suspects that's only one way of looking at it, but it's the best we've got.
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>>101092603
>Because Dark Matter isn't something that can be calculated/vectored?
You're retarded. The whole point of their first fight was that Accelerator needed to revise his theories and equations to account for the entirely foreign nature of Dark Matter. As soon as he did this, he vectored the shit out of Dark Matter.
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>>101091503
>Shirou would get destroyed in Indexverse for pretty obvious reasons. He's not so special anymore in a world where everyone has a marble phantasm/reality marble.

You do know An Involuntary Movement and Reality Marbles are fundementally different concepts, right?

And that Shirou is a magic user that lifts and actually knows how to fight, on top of growing in tactics and cool reasoning with every fight?

More than half of the conflicts that pop up because of Touma wouldn't even exist to Shirou.

>Sees biribiri being picked on
>Observes the situation properly
>Speaks up
>Fights before the others can get out the bathroom
>Beats the smarm out of the remaining group before the others are zapped by a pissed off Biribiri
>Proceeds to ask her why she provoked them before she can get a word in edgewise
>hfw he's not downtalking to her

And then Academy City doesn't have a blackout.
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>>101092664
>Essentially it's Gaia packed into a right hand.
It's all encompassing, unlike Gaia's limited purview of... well Earth. It's role as a universal constant has been compared to the Abrahamic God before, which is above even Type Moon and ORT and would fall somewhere in the Root or the true God that never does anything in Nasu's works.
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>>101092613
>Reality Marbles
Reality Marbles replace reality. Hell, Imagine Breaker inside a Reality Marble might actually work to deny everything unnatural per the rules of that particular Reality Marble.
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>>101092746
Unlikely. Othinus's phases which are essentially just universal scale reality warping don't get destroyed from having Touma in them, he has to actually go for it.
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>>101092701
>You're retarded.
>Entire post goes on to agree with me

You said Accel couldn't deal with Dark Matter because it wasn't 'part of their reality'. I'm saying that's not the case.

>>101092733
>And that Shirou is a magic user that lifts and actually knows how to fight,

Shirou isn't a magic user; he can't use magic. All he can do is throw swords at people.
Shirou doesn't know how to fight at all. He just relies on auto-pilot.

> on top of growing in tactics and cool reasoning with every fight?
You retarded biribiri? This is the same Shirou that constantly charges into life and death situations head first, having to be saved by other people every time.
You're thinking of Archer, but we're talking about generic F/SN Shirou here. Keep up with the discussion.
>>
>>101092189

Well the magic isn't the important part, its just how the soul fragment in the bullet travels, all it needs is something through which a soul can interact. Though maybe AIM doesn't allow for that, I don't think that the interaction of souls and AIM has been stated.

>>101092329

I'm getting the idea from other things, like the part where accel fixed part of his brain with his power first time he awakened. Also I didn't say it made them crazy, I'm saying it has an effect on their mind. Accel, Misaka, and Misaki, have all been shown to do things that a human mind should not have been capable of.

Really though the AIM affecting the spirit(the only part of this that applies to the origin bullet thing) is also based on the part where Aleister Crowley is trying to make angles out of AIM, and a spiritual being like Aiwass uses the stuff. So I figure there is some sort of spirit AIM interaction.
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>>101091659
Runic cards Styl quickly made out of copying paper and placed on the hallway one floor below Touma's apartment.

And that would be wrecked by Shirou, too

>loli on his balcony
>Lets her in, lets her eat, senses something off about her
>Believes her story but doesn't let her leave—makes a phonecall to Loli-sensei since she's the only one that's proven trustworthy so far in the city
>Spider-sense tingles
>Feels someone setting up a barrier
>Grabs loli, leaps out balcony
>Takes the next building over out and goes to an open area when he sees he's being pursued
>Beats Styl who is now out of zone with his casting magic
>Kanzaki appears
>the real battle begins
>index's face when her protector has already walked through hell and doesn't back down
>>
>>101088650
So to seriously answer the OP, Shirou can probably beat Stiyl, but Kanzaki is going to rape him, physically she's superior to even Berserker. She won't kill him though, so there's that.

Izzard is going to be a bitch for him, he's not a tricky bastard like Touma is and he doesn't have IB to negate Izzard's "You're fucked" commands.

If he gets past that, I don't see him passing Accelerator.

Part of the issue is Touma faces alot of crazy bastards the first few volumes, then he hits volume 5 and he doesn't face anyone that powerful again until volume 16.
>>
>>101092229
>This is most evident in F/HA with Bazette's double KO.
Actually that proved that even if Lancer is retroactively killed to prevent the lance from ever being thrust in the first place, the lance still hits regardless. Which proves that the lance never needs to be moved at all to enter the heart.
It also goes to some way explain why Arc would die, even reversing time won't save you.
>>
>>101092797
You should lurk Index generals more. Othinus's worlds weren't just large scale reality warping, they literally changed the entire universe to whatever she saw fit. There was nothing to dispel, since those new universes were the 'base' from then on.

RMs can't even be compared, considering they still struggle to be overthrown by Gaia. Not even the actual universe, just a little planet.
>>
>>101090431
It's not Luck: F-. It's Bad Luck: A.
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>>101092931
That post sounds like Archer, not Shirou.
>>
>>101093032
Yeah, Othinus basically confirmed it. Touma's bad luck keeps him alive so he can keep on suffering.
>>
>>101092851
He's specifically referred to in the Materials as a "magic user", not a magus. Because he has no talent in any field of magecraft, and his power is derived specifically from his Reality Marble.
>>
>>101090277
Kirei could beat up the T easily, Touma isn't even a street thug.
>>
>>101092980
>Actually that proved that even if Lancer is retroactively killed to prevent the lance from ever being thrust in the first place, the lance still hits regardless.
You're not really disagreeing with anything I said. Even if Lancer died, the physical piercing still has to happen. You should read the scene, it's already translated, but here's a quick explanation:

What gay bulge does is take a variable
>Heart Pierced
And automatically sets it to 1 instead of 0. The universe will break if this happens, so in order to work, it gives the lance priority to pierce the heart. The lance still has to connect for the skill to work.
>>
>>101093152
Alot of Touma's problem is being a nice guy.

According to Kihara Enshuu anyways Touma can easily crush someone's upper body to pieces, but it's not a "card" he's willing to use.
>>
>>101090770
Yes, because Kirei doesn't doubt himself or his ideals at all.
Touma's speech didn't work on Acqua, so I doubt it'll do anything to Kirei.
>>
>>101093240
And as a result, this happens.

It is described in much the same way in Extra as well.
>>
>>101088650
I can see Shirou surviving against Misaka in the prologue
The dude is made of swords, and that shit conducts electricity beautifully
>>
>Touma
can't summon servants because of image breaker, but he would get involved with the holy grail war after he gets lost and finds two magicians living their lives incorrectly
if he does somehow summon a servant, it would be lancer

>Shirou
Gets labeled as a lvl2 esper (a lie) and becomes a mechanic in academy city.
>>
>>101092995
I thought they were new layers (filters?) over the base, rather than changing the base and that Touma's hand references the base to break things.
I'm still only half way through NT8 though, so this is regurgitated from what I've heard in the threads.
>>
>>101093279
>Yes, because Kirei doesn't doubt himself or his ideals at all.
>doesn't doubt himself

His entire goal in HF was to try to determine if the way he was leading his life was a 'correct' and 'natural' way to live.

What you mean is that Kirei doesn't get suckered in by moralfag speeches because he just doesn't care.
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>No new Index anime
>No new Fate [insert name] anime

I know /a/ hates powerlevels sometimes but they are fun.
>>
>>101093297
The crazy bitch also used iron sand and electromagnetic pulses to pulverize organs in that fight.
>>
>>101092851
>You said Accel couldn't deal with Dark Matter because it wasn't 'part of their reality'. I'm saying that's not the case.
>"My Dark Matter is matter that does not exist in this world! It completely disobeys
the laws of physics of this world. Sunlight that gets diffracted by the Dark Matter will
also have its own set of laws! Foreign bodies are like this: by just mixing in a little bit,
the world will completely change!"
>'“This space which has been affected by foreign bodies is no longer the world that you
know!”'
>'“Indeed, you can control matter that doesn’t exist in this world.”'
>"'The laws written in school textbooks don’t work on them, and light and electromagnetic
waves that come in contact with the Dark Matter get twisted into energy that can’t
possibly exist. So using energy calculation algorithms based on rules of this world will
definitely have flaws."'
>'“Then all I have to do is include them in my calculations. To change the laws of this
world into a new world that includes your Dark Matter and create a new algorithm, then
it’s checkmate.”'
So, here we have Kakine and Accelerator completely refuting you.

>Shirou isn't a magic user; he can't use magic.
What exactly do you think tracing and reinforcement are? Shirou is by definition a magic-user. Rin is even quite clear about that.
>>
>>101093048
It's Shirou. He makes careful decisions and is calm in battle. People overlook that because they're too busy screaming that FSN is a shounen battle maniac series when it's the polar opposite. After all, people die, powerlevels mean jack-shit, and there are no training montages.

A Shirou out of his home field would risk being snipped while fleeing because a tiny apartment on the third floor of a building is not nearly as guarded or isolated as his compound in Shinto City, Fuyuki. Nor is there as much space for him to fight.

Unless Index spills the beans on the number of pursuers, he's got two choices: take his chances and face them in a crowded hallway full of people, or shirk off to a park that's not full of people, and distinctly away from the barrier that ticked off his senses.

It could go other ways but I'm basing it immediately on what Touma went through in that exact moment, as well as what options he had available, and who Shirou is as a character.
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>>101093240
>>101093284
>working under the laws of only one universe
>>
>>101093344
>I thought they were new layers (filters?) over the base,
Nah man.

It's partially translated now, go read it.
>>
>>101092631
By Crowley's own words, Touma is one of the linchpins to his plans.
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>>101093399
>It's Shirou. He makes careful decisions and is calm in battle.
>Careful decisions

Not. At. All.
Did we read the same VN? All of his decisions are based on his drive to save people and leads to him getting screwed multiple times. If Rin wasn't supporting him, he would have NEVER made it past the first day.

Like I said, you're talking about Archer, not Shirou. Sorry.
>>
>>101093240
>The lance still has to connect for the skill to work.

Yes. But do you know what needs to happen to prevent that from occurring?

- Have a fuck-powerful shield (Avalon scale) that can defend against GB's concept.
- Being able to alter one's own fate (the actual definition of the LCK stat in fsn—this and Saber's high Instinct skill are what allowed her to dodge a direct blow from the barb)
- Being able to take out Lancer before he casts the barb's true name.

And Accelerator, as a character, has NONE of the abilities above needed to stop Gae Bolg. Few Raildex characters do. This has been established for a long time.
>>
>>101093315
Between reinforcement and UBW, I think Shirou could at least give Gunha a run for his money. At least Gunha'd be impressed by all of Shirou's guts.
>>
Shirou's best hope is tracing some fucking weapons.

Curtana, Dainsleif, Hrunting, Ascalon, Shichiten Shichitou, Brahma Astra.

If he gets these he should be alright.
>>
>>101093453
This raises another question.
Who has imagine breaker now?
>>
>>101093559
>But do you know what needs to happen to prevent that from occurring?
Anything that contradicts the original concept, yes.
Avalon works because it moves the distance to ∞, which would be similar to Accel's vectoring.

At this point, you're just saying
>IT WONT WORK BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT WAAH

I'm not saying it's 100% guaranteed to work since this is a cross-universe power level threads, but the concept is sound.
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>>101092851
>Shirou isn't a magic user; he can't use magic.

This has been answered.

>All he can do is throw swords at people.

0/10 put in more effort.

>Shirou doesn't know how to fight at all. He just relies on auto-pilot.

0/10 put in more effort.

>You retarded biribiri? This is the same Shirou that constantly charges into life and death situations head first, having to be saved by other people every time.

Confirmed for not having read the canon at all. See me after class, Mike.
>>
>>101093555
Actually, Shirou fleeing due to the presence of other people in the apartment building makes sense. Of course, it might be subverted by the presence of a bounded field and a need to protect everyone from that as well.
>>
The problem is, Touma is only relevant because of IB. Shirou's not got enough powerlevels to become relevant just by being there, so he'll most likely have very little impact on the overall setting. If he succeeds at anything, it'll just piss of a major player and get him a one way ticket to rektsville.
>>
>>101093240
I have read the scene, hence why I referenced it. The fact remains that even time alteration will not prevent the heart from being pierced, only fate-alteration or a powerful concept will prevent it from working. Accelerator's defenses do not include that much, so it's irrelevent.
>>
>>101093796
The field Stiyl (and most other magicians) use is actually pretty benevolent. It forces anyone he doesn't want in the area to leave. Keeps casualties down.
>>
>>101093818
Vectors are more a concept than anything concrete.
>>
>>101093818
>Accelerator's defenses do not include that much,
Once again, Accelerator is packing a RM around him, which works in essentially the same way as Avalon. If by chance it does get through his automatic calculations, I'm hard pressed to think it will get past such a powerful concept.
>>
>>101093638
I think a slightly more interesting premise would be to switch their power-set when they get transferred to the new universe. Shirou probably wouldn't have the same organization-building capabilities as Touma, but he'd be just as retardedly tenacious about protecting Index and the Sisters.
>>
>>101088726
>both die
Yes because having the power to despell all magic won't be the most OP ability ever.
>>
>>101093818
>powerful concept
You can do some crazy things with vectors. There is even potential to affect time and space as well. They're pretty much a fundamental constant of the unvierse.
>>
>>101093559
Not the guy your arguing with, but does it JUST stab you in the heart? Because Accel can vector the blood around his body until he gets to a hospital or whatever.

If it's conceptual or something, disregard this.
>>
>>101093896

But concepts are not vectors, accel can't vector a concept.
>>
>>101093920
They both probably live really.

Touma's bad luck should keep him going and IB is enough to make a difference. From what we've seen recently Touma probably isn't going to be able to save as many people as Shirou did, but he can probably survive.

Without IB Shirou won't get anyone's attention really, he should be fine.
>>
>>101093843
Right, but Shirou probably wouldn't know that. He'd just know that some sort of bounded field-type thing was being set-up.
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>>101093555
Yes, we're talking about the same canon. The one that has Shirou make and justify smooth judgments that put him in direct harm, but end up taking OTHERS out of the line of fire. The one that has Shirou dissassemble and descript to Tohsaka and Saber what Gilgamesh's stats are about—a Servant that even adult and experienced magi had problems discerning both power and any kind of plan to counter.

The same canon that has him defending vitals and skimming for openings in most conflicts where he's on the defensive. Learning as he goes, stopping others (or trying to) when they're about to make grievous oversights (Tohsaka), not screaming his head off while he's attacking as some horrible-ass movie would have you believe, since he understands that Breathing is a fundamental to proper casting.

I'm not the one cherry-picking, here.
>>
>>101089122

>fucking implying

Touma is 2hu levels at evasion
>>
>>101093912
>RM
Esper powers are not a Reality Marble. They merely subvert the natural laws of reality. They're much more similar in both concept and execution to a Marble Phantasm.
>>
>>101094002
What do you think Esper powers are in the first place?

They're just the manifestation of the Esper's way of looking at the world. And Accelerator can vector and even take control over other Esper's powers (like he did against Kakine).
>>
>>101093920
>the power to despell all magic
IB doesn't dispel magic at all.
>>
>>101093896
>>101093912
It's a glorified redirecting forcefield, it really doesn't have a potent concept behind it, like say, Berserker's God Hand or even Rho Aias. It's just an idea given power by one kid's brain, it doesn't really hold up to crystalized ideas of mankind.
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>>101093702
No, not similiar to Accelerator's vectoring at all. His shit's interrupted the minute something it cannot calculate interferes with his autobarrier. Which has happened.

Avalon is an all-encompassing removal from that reality, allowing no interference by even miracles and other fantastic levels of magic. Accel's vector manipulation is nowhere near Avalon's level of protection. Even Winged Accelerator can't compare.

But hey, I can do better than tell you. I can show you.
>>
>>101094116
It no more dispels magic than remove it from existence.
>>
Did everyone somehow forget that Touma hand literally destroys anything supernatural? If he touches any servant they will disappear and their NPs would disappear.from range or shoot him. Since he would get Main Character trait no-one would think to shoot him with a gun and would end up being killed when they touch him. Even Kirei would die.
>>
>>101093912
>>101094117
Also, Accelerator's AIM field doesn't even hold a torch to Avalon. Avalon is impervious to interference from the True Magics, time manipulation and infraction from parallel universes can't breach it.
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>>101093702
>>101094171

And I'm not even the anon you were arguing with. I just understand that your viewpoint is factually incorrect.
>>
>Implying Crowley will let anyone kill accel

This is while Crowley's still the keikaku master, he'll pull some shit and keep accel alive, even if it means that Shirou gets a blasting rod to the face.
>>
>>101094012
>Without IB Shirou won't get anyone's attention really, he should be fine.
Index is showing up on Shirou porch, pursued by magical kidnappers. Either he's getting killed by Kanzaki/Stiyl, or he's beating them to death with swords and protecting Index. Given how retardedly fast Servants are, Shirou might (MIGHT) just be able to fight Kanzaki. If he decides to gib her with a NP immediately, his odds go up.
>>
>>101094098
>They're just the manifestation of the Esper's way of looking at the world
They distort the way the world is.
>>
>>101094116
You're right, it's even more powerful. They would probably classify it as something above true magic.
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>>101094031
Shirou charged headfirst into a Berserker class servant, got cleaved in half, and only survived due to pure luck by having Avalon.
Shirou charged headfirst into the school despite being told specifically to stay out only to almost (and in a bad end, does) die. He only survives with Saber to bail him out.
Shirou interacts with Ilya despite knowing how evil she is and gets captured, forcing Rin and Saber to save his ass again.
Shirou gets into an argument with Saber for no reason and doesn't protect her during the middle of a war, leading to her nearly getting raped and him getting cleaved in half.
Shirou can't even kill Kotomine without the azroth dagger.

Basically, if Shirou didn't have Saber, Rin, and Archer bailing his dumbass out multiple times, he would've died multiples over. And the bad ends, which are canon, actually prove that.

And this is ONLY talking about Fate.

Who's cherry-picking again? Mhmm?
>>
>>101094218
Avalon is the better defense without question but it lacks the offensive capabilities of his vector manipulation.
>>
>>101094098

He vectors the powers, not the concept that makes the power. Its not like he can transfer the ability from one person to another. But by their nature a concept isn't a vector, you might be able to twist a concept into a vector, but a concept all on its own isn't a vector.
>>
>>101094000
It's a sure-kill attack that does the max damage+1 to the target. A heart pierced by Gae Bolg is near-impossible to heal without serious high-level magic. Even if Accelerator survives, it'd take the lion's share of his processing power just to STAY alive. He'd be in no condition to fight.
>>
>>101094284
It makes the world the way the world actually is.
It's essentially the exact opposite of the first true magic.
>>
>>101094203
>Even Kirei would die.
No. If something isn't entirely magical in nature, it won't be destroyed unless the part that is is touched directly, like the magic seal in Index' mouth. He'd have to reach through Kirei's chest and touch his black heart directly, which isn't likely.
>>
>>101094203
>obviously didn't read even the first couple of posts
>is unaware of the extreme hand-to-hand combat capabilities of Nasuverse magi
>is unaware of the parallels between Innocentus's runes and Servants command seals
>is unaware of Servants literally moving too quickly for Touma to counter
>>
>>101094203
Kuzuki would fuck him up HARD though.
>>
>>101094224
Come to think of it, Aleister really doesn't have any need for Shirou. He's not part of any major magic organization he needs to manipulate, and he's not an esper.

He would just have him kicked out of the city or arrested.
>>
>>101094171
I'm not saying vectors = Avalon. If you had any reading comprehension whatsoever, you'd know that I said the basic idea of subverting the gay bulge concept is the same: infinite/parallel distance.
I already explained how in F/HA the lance still has to pierce the heart for it to work. You moving the goalposts to
>But we need arcane concepts to stop it!
Doesn't mean a thing.

>His shit's interrupted the minute something it cannot calculate interferes with his autobarrier.
And let's be honest, the physical action is just a piercing stab, which is why it can't be activated at long distances where Lancer cannot possible reach his target.
>>
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>>101094031
>That makes me realize. The thing extending from her weapon. The annoying sound of chains. The sound of the chains moving. The sound of the binding chains that I've heard since I came out of the building
>Crap!" I reach out for my right arm with my left, but it's too late. The arm moves up by itself and is lifted up.
Shirou who didn't notice nor figure out that shit sticking out of his arm is Riders weapon. Sure is genius tactician
>>
>>101094348
Also, it fills the entire body with thorns, not just the heart.
>>
>>101094388
Well that's a given.
>>
>>101094348
Accel can't die, unless you destroy his brain.
Don't you remember what happened with Aiwass?
He was just a bloody mess on the floor, but his powers kept him alive.
>>
>>101094368
I now want to see Touma punching through Kirei's heart and ripping it out.

Time to commission some drawfags.
>>
>>101094497
I'd rather see Touma monologing and Kirei counter monologing, followed by a cross-counter.
>>
>>101094253
From what I know from calcs, Servants are like mach 15 with mach 45 reactions. Saints are in the mach 10-20 movement with mach 100+ close combat speed. Saints also have way superior strength feats.

Kanzaki carries around a huge sword that she uses her most powerful technique, Yuisen, through though, so if Shirou can copy that and copy her strength and speed he should be just fine.
>>
>>101094203
>Even Kirei would die.
>Implying Touma has the physical capability of getting in striking distance of Kirei without getting his chest blown out first from the kung fu practitioner who fights vampires

No one's forgetting anything here but you, bud.
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>>101094439
>____Eh, Nandatte?!?!
But yeah, Shirou isn't a genius tactician at all. Remember that it took Archer an eternity to get Eye of Mind.
>>
>>101094465
See >>101094453. His brain will be full of thorns.
>>
>>101094575
Touma's got some blatantly superhuman feats under his belt, but Kirei is still the superior fighter and his superhuman himself.
>>
>>101094557
>that she uses her most powerful technique, Yuisen, through
Except her most powerful technique is using the wire to make 3D magic circles.
>>
>>101094381
All he has to do is touch them. In "reality" Shirou should have died in 100% of his encounters but he has MC level luck and if you apply the same plot armor to Touma then he's unstoppable. Unless his enemies were fully aware of Imagine Breaker they would be totally unprepared.
>>
>>101094348
>It's a sure-kill attack that does the max damage+1 to the target.
Stop. Spreading. Misinformation.
All it does is pierce the heart, which happens to be the weakness of most humanoids. That's why Kirei would just get up in UBW after getting pierced.
>>
>>101094622
What? No man, Yuisen is her trump card.

Yuisen was able to cut apart Gabriel's mountain-destroying wings while those wires didn't even last a second in that fight.
>>
>>101094396
I think he would show interest the concept of reality marble but obviously not Shirous since it's pretty useless to anyone but himself.
>>
>>101094557
>From what I know from calcs, Servants are like mach 15 with mach 45 reactions. Saints are in the mach 10-20 movement with mach 100+ close combat speed
>pics or it didn't happen
>>
>>101094631
>In "reality" Shirou should have died in 100% of his encounters but he has MC level luck and if you apply the same plot armor to Touma then he's unstoppable.
Basically this. I really hate the Shirou fanbase shitting over Touma without realizing that F/SN bent over backwards (ignoring bad ends) to let Shirou survive. In reality, if Touma was the MC, the same outcome would be achieved, albeit with different events.
>>
>>101094557
>Saints also have way superior strength feats.
I'm pretty sure that's debatable. Saber's armour temporarily held up against Ea, despite it overpowering Excalibur's city-busting power. And any Knight-class servant or Berserker worth their salt can pierce Saber's armour.
>>
>>101094631
>Souichiro is beating Touma to death
>Touma touches him
>Souichiro continues beating Touma to death
>>
>>101094575
Fucking Shriou managed to stab him AND then punch the dagger in the route were he was at his weakest. Though I'll agree that it's unlikely Kirie would fight Touma without using Lancer to scout him.
>>
>>101094728
Kanzaki can survive reentry into the atmosphere and the accompanying fall.
>>
>>101094778
Yes we get it, Souichirou kills Touma.
>>
>>101094631
>Shirou should have died in 100% of his encounters but he has MC level luck and if you apply the same plot armor to Touma then he's unstoppable.
A 4/45 success rate isn't very good, m8. It certainly doesn't make for particularly amazing good luck.
>>
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>>101094778
>>
Without Gaia around to reassert control, would UBW be permanent in Raildex-verse? Wouldn't it have a hilariously-low prana cost as well since their isn't a Counter Force actively telling him to fuck off the entire time?
>>
>>101094694
What do you want feats on? The servants or the saints?
>>
>>101088831

I = V / R

High voltage will fuck you up in most situations.
>>
>>101094846
That's...remarkably unquntifiable. Current space ships survive reentry, that doesn't give them city level durability.
>>
>>101094886
Gaia's equivalent in Raildex is IB. Without Touma around there's nothing to stop that kind of thing.

If someone is making a permanent distortion of space though, a top-tier will come by eventually to wreck Shirou for being a dick.
>>
>>101094901
I want the calculations that allowed you to derive those numbers.
>>
>>101094728
Are you not familiar with Index at all? Kanzaki has much better feats than Saber's armour.

>despite it overpowering Excalibur's city-busting power.
Ea's physical strength is not a direct correlation of it's NP. It's just a glorified drill made out of moonrocks otherwise.
>>
>>101094311
>Shirou charged headfirst into a Berserker class servant, got cleaved in half, and only survived due to pure luck by having Avalon.
Realized Saber wasn't going to beat him and acted on "I must save her" feeling. Battle turned in his favor because of luck. Still very much in the Day One shock phase of "what the hell is going on?"

Cherry-picking.
>Shirou charged headfirst into the school despite being told specifically to stay out only to almost (and in a bad end, does) die. He only survives with Saber to bail him out.

Misconstruing that entire series of events. Tohsaka warns him against traveling without his Servant, and she's working under the context that Saber is a NORMAL Servant that can take etheral form. Shirou simply trusts Tohsaka and doesn't register her as a threat, given they have a semi-truce going (not a full one). Judgment error on his part. Ends up saving her AND himself in succession (rightfully realizing the downed student was deliberate and intercepting Rider's nail, NOT calling for Saber and pridefully trying to hold out against who he calculated was a weak Servant).
Fate route—goes to the school at Shinji's beckoning, guards his vitals against Rider's attack, calls Saber as needed (when his pride finally dies as it should), proceeds to chase down and immobilize Shinji, forcing Rider to use her trump card to escape.

>Shirou interacts with Ilya despite knowing how evil she is and gets captured, forcing Rin and Saber to save his ass again.
Daylight, people around, she only got him to drop his guard and get him isolated in the third meeting.

>Shirou gets into an argument with Saber for no reason and doesn't protect her during the middle of a war, leading to her nearly getting raped and him getting cleaved in half.

If this is about Gilgamesh's second appearance, you're being dense.

Just as the bad ends are canon, so are the actual ENDINGS of fsn, which dictate the boy has more sense about him than people give him credit for.
>>
>>101094988
>someone beating Shirou while he's in a SWORD
>>
>>101094881
To be fair, Shirou doesn't die in all the bad ends.
Although I guess you can make the argument that he'll eventually die as the war plays out anyways.

>>101094778
Souichiro is THE counter to physical fighters. He beat the shit out of Shirou even when Shirou was using K&B infused with Archer's memories. He also nearly killed Saber due to her getting cocky. He's not a man to trifle with, for either Touma or Shirou.
>>
>>101094988
Aleister is gonna hire Shirou to place UBW everywhere.
>>
>>101094886
Pretty much, yeah. Although magecraft would probably be hampered because there's no mana naturally occuring in the world of Raildex to use, so they'd have to rely on their own innate Od.
>>
>>101094970
Pretty sure most of their durability feats come from being able to survive eachother's attacks.

Kanzaki herself casually lifted and slammed down tens of thousands of tons of metal onto Carissa while injured. They're also able to match Carissa's strength, who herself tanked a blast of her own power, which can destroy all of London.

They can also injure Gabriel and cut apart it's wings, but that's through special techniques IIRC, Gabriel is far above them.
>>
>>101094694
Saber was mach 5 at her fastest with a command seal she didn't have forced upon her to get to Shirou ASAP. Even Bellerophon was only 500km/h and that shit was labelled fast as fuck.
>>
>>101094846
Are you saying space shuttles have ultimate power?
>>
>>101095000
>Are you not familiar with Index at all? Kanzaki has much better feats than Saber's armour.
Do enlighten me. And don't give me more of that reentry bullshit.
>Ea's physical strength is not a direct correlation of it's NP. It's just a glorified drill made out of moonrocks otherwise.
The energy made from it is comparable to the movement of tectonic plates, so yeah.
>>
>>101095132
If it was permanent he would probably be too afraid to use it.
>>
>>101094778

1-2 hard counters does not get rid of the fact that Touma can reek serious havoc in FSN. Fuck, Souichiro could get taken out by fuckin Rin if she ranges him. Meanwhile Caster has to try and fight against Touma.
>>
>>101095123
Without weather for Tree Diagram to fail to predict, no-one would ever know it was destroyed. Presumably by making Index choke on Shirou's Rule Breaker
>>
>>101095209
A space shuttle sustains against quite a lot of energy while reentering.
>>
>>101091222
It would actually be the opposite for me.
>>
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>>101094988
>Gaia's equivalent in Raildex is IB.
IB is universal, Gaia isn't. But yes, the properties and general characteristics are similar.

>>101095064
>Day One shock phase of "what the hell is going on?"
Good excuse.

>Misconstruing that entire series of events.
I'm misconstruing nothing. He made bad decisions, was oblivious due to negligence, and nearly died due to his pride. Far from the Shirou you described as making 'careful decisions'. Heh.

>she only got him to drop his guard and get him isolated in the third meeting.
>Trusting any master that isn't Rin
Once again, terrible judgement that nearly got not just him, but ALL THREE of them killed. Doesn't sound like the Shirou that 'uses smooth judgement to put others out of harms way' eh?

>you're being dense.
Good rebuttal.

>which dictate the boy has more sense about him than people give him credit for.
I give credit where credit is due. But considering he fucks up in 80% of the possible world lines, you're vastly overestimating him. Once again, Archer fits what you described, but NOT Shirou.
>>
>>101095228
>The energy made from it is comparable to the movement of tectonic plates, so yeah.
The NP, yes. There's nothing suggesting it's some super weapon that can level cities with physical force alone, so yeah.
>>
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>>101094439
>Learning as he goes, stopping others (or trying to) when they're about to make grievous oversights (Tohsaka), not screaming his head off while he's attacking as some horrible-ass movie would have you believe, since he understands that Breathing is a fundamental to proper casting.

>Learning as he goes

It's like you read just enough to bolster you own self-righteous feelings to propel your rather useless counter.

Just to sharpen and narrow this area of discussion: at no point did I imply he was a genius. The statement was that he is makes careful decisions in a combat situation. He does. It's something both Saber AND Rin remark on in canon.

What you're implying in my statement is that Shirou = Archer. He has a ways to go before that's true. But he's not magically a 24/7 idiot, as (more than one of) you seem to believe.
>>
>>101095259
How would he know prior to using it? Hell, he might go to activate it defending Index from Kanzaki and accidentally turn the entire world into SWORD.
>>
>>101095163
>Kanzaki herself casually lifted and slammed down tens of thousands of tons of metal onto Carissa while injured.
Well that's fairly strong, I guess. Probably not enough to destroy a city, but still.
>They're also able to match Carissa's strength, who herself tanked a blast of her own power, which can destroy all of London.
That just suggests Carissa's really tough. It doesn't really say much about her strength, unless she can destroy London with her own strength. I was under the impression it was Curtana that did most of the damage.
>They can also injure Gabriel and cut apart it's wings, but that's through special techniques IIRC, Gabriel is far above them.
That also doesn't help unless Gabriel's toughness is actually quantifiable.
>>
>>101095271
This. A lot of people seem to think Touma would go through the story exactly the same was Shirou did (despite arguing that Shirou would do things different in Index...), but that wouldn't be the case.

Like this guy said, Rin and Touma would rethink their plans with Touma taking Caster head on by nulling her attacks and Rin distracting Souichiro instead.
>>
>>101095463
Gil would just murder Touma, because Touma can't even get close to him.
>>
>>101095402
>The NP, yes. There's nothing suggesting it's some super weapon that can level cities with physical force alone, so yeah.
That is the amount of energy being produced by the NP when it's used, so yeah. That's what Saber's armour had to hold up against.
>>
>>101095287
>Aleister's true plan to to take over the world using an army of space shuttles
>Accelerator and Touma are just a diversion
>>
>>101095432
He'd use it at least once obviously.
>>
>>101088650
Goku teleport to both universe and kill both faggots.
>>
>>101095209
Good strawman.
The fact remains that it's a great feat which you seem to brush off as nothing. Even a highschool understanding of physics can explain to you why you're full of shit.
>>
>>101095500
Pretty sure he can. Touma deals with spam all the time, it's never worked. Dat precog.

Gil himself is physically superior though.
>>
>>101095505
>That is the amount of energy being produced by the NP when it's used,
Which is not it's physical strength, so yeah.
Unless you think every swing of Excalibur was equivalent to an Excaliblast? Then why did she have so much trouble destroying a stone sword or a bunch of nails? Please, use your head.

>>101095500
We don't know for sure. If Touma can dispel servants, or even just the magical properties of GoB, he has as much of a chance as Shiki in the Shiki vs Shirou matchup.
>>
>>101095575
>Dat precog
Flying swords are not magic.
I wonder what would happen if Touma actually managed to touch Gil's key, though.
I bet Gil would start crying.
>>
>>101095500

Nope.

1) Gil's ego would kill him
2) Touma has survived against "projectile walls" before several times

He could get to Gil easy. The hard counters to Touma would be Kotomine and Souichiro.
>>
There's also Silvia, a Saint, whose barrier could stop Hel's attacks. Hel herself casually froze the ocean in a 100 kilometer radius around her, at least deep enough to capture all the ships and walk on.
>>
>>101095630
Does he ever even use the Key in F/SN? I recall seeing it in F/Z and CCC, but for some reason not in F/SN.
>>
>>101095463
>A lot of people seem to think Touma would go through the story exactly the same was Shirou did (despite arguing that Shirou would do things different in Index...)
No, a lot of people seem to be under the impression that a lot of people in F/SN could just beat Touma to death. Which is true.

Without their shared history, Rin might just kill Touma if he insists on interfering. Or she might work with him. They'd just have to hope that he doesn't run into Ilya alone or have Kirei/Souichiro get into CC with him.
>>
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>>101094420
>And let's be honest, the physical action is just a piercing stab, which is why it can't be activated at long distances where Lancer cannot possible reach his target.

>0 to 50 m in the blink of an eye
>>
>>101095675
>Touma has survived against "projectile walls" before several times
Not completely non-magical projectiles like good and proper handmade bullets.
>>
>>101095630
Pretty sure they're magic swords. And Touma destroys those on contact.

Plus Touma has blocked sword spam from both Fiamma and Birdway.
>>
>>101095500
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Touma is a mongrel in every definition of Gil's ego. If he didn't take Lancelot seriously, I HIGHLY doubt he'd even consider spamming until it was too late.
>>
>>101095630

Earth Tsunamis isn't Magic either, nor is Black Wings
>>
>>101095463
It doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, they'd have to go up against Kirei and Gil. The only chance they have of winning if Gil being a complete moron, which is admittedly par for the course, but otherwise they'd be fucked.
And if we're talking about unconventional scenarios, Bazette and Lancer would wreck their shit too.
>>
>>101095500
We all know what would really happen.
>gil is utterly disgusted that a weakling like Touma tries to fight him
>fires single NPs as Touma and makes him dodge them while he gloats
>not worthy of being killed by EA
>Touma speech
>muh onore
>Touma runs at him IB NPs fired at him and touches PIS Gil
>>
>>101095675
>forgetting that Rin was trained by Kirei
>>
>>101095630

They have magic in them, it amounts to the same thing.

He just got done blocking Odin's fucking lance in the latest novel as it got hurled at him.
>>
>>101095701
>Female
>Resisting the TouMAN's charms
She's in the harem the second their eyes meet.
>>
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>>101094420
>>101095708
>Throwing the spear at mach 2

You can stop this, now.
>>
>>101095755

Would Gil even get fucked up if Touma touched him?

He's physically embodied by the time of the 5th war.
>>
>>101095701
>lot of people in F/SN could just beat Touma to death. Which is true.
Which is also true for Shirou. I don't see your point.

>Without their shared history, Rin might just kill Touma if he insists on interfering.
Well obviously, if Touma is in Shirou's world, then he would take Shirou's place prior to the start of the story.
>>
>>101095782
And that thing wrecked the whole universe just to power it up...
>>
>>101095712

Which doesnt matter, as Gil doesnt use bullets. He uses magic blades, thus Touma has the ability to predict and destroy enough to make a gap in the wall, as he's demonstrated before.
>>
>>101095626
No, you use your head. The physical factor comes from any given knight-class servant being able to physically penetrate Saber's armour, which in turn can temporarily hold up to the energy being produced by Ea. Do you get it yet?
>>
>>101095626
They are familiars/fictional beings. IB is made to kill them.
>>
I'm pretty sure Kamachi is a Nasu fan.

>Returning to its owner seemed to be a relatively important ability for projectiles. For example, Cú Chulainn from Celtic mythology’s spear did not possess that ability and he was ultimately killed when his own spear was thrown back at him. Lightning God Thor’s Mjölnir in Norse mythology and Light God Lugh’s Fragarach in Celtic mythology were both said to have this ability.
>>
>>101095785
The princesses don't seem to be in love with him.
Neither does Laura for that matter. The Queen too... The other New Light members, Agnese's troops don't seem to be crazy for him either.
>>
>>101095764
>Touma speech
>doing anything to Gil.
Gil is more adamant in his ideals than Acqua.
>>
>>101095780

I was assuming Rin as an ally, but yea if they had to fight she'd kick his ass too.
>>
>>101095763
>Kirei and Gil
Kirei would just cocky like he does in Fate and get wrecked. Ditto for Gil in UBW.

Touma would get shat on in HF though, so it'll have to play out differently and that's where the comparison starts to fall apart since dropping people in other universes isn't well thought out.

>And if we're talking about unconventional scenarios, Bazette and Lancer would wreck their shit too.
They don't even show up until F/HA. What does this have to do with anything anyways? Nasu already said they would have the highest chance of winning the 5th war already.
>>
>>101095764
>Gilgamesh fails to disappear since he has been incarnated by the Grail and is now part of that reality
Or Gilgamesh is the only Servant that would be instant-dispelled by Imagine Breaker.
>>
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>>101095708
>>101095806
I hope you realize the thrown version has different properties than the causality-reversing NP.

>>101095815
Hard to say. He got a body, but it was tied to the grail's magic giving it to him. We know the swords/EA wouldn't work though.
>>
>>101095815
Touma's power doesn't destroy magic but rather things that shouldn't be. Even if Gil has a real body he is still born of the grail and is linked to it which is why it tries to use him in UBW.
>>
>>101095701

Except that Touma has fucking precog against supernatural thing (you know, what servants are) and he can kill them in one fucking hit. He can react to fucking lightning and block it with his precog.
>>
>>101095817
>Well obviously, if Touma is in Shirou's world, then he would take Shirou's place prior to the start of the story.
In that case, Shirou is actually Touma and Touma is Shirou. Everything is the same in both stories except for an inexplicable name change.
>>
>>101094640
>That's why Kirei would just get up in UBW after getting pierced.

Nigga what. I don't even have to go to the VN to prove you wrong. When DEEN has it more in line than you do, it's time to reassess what you're stating.
>>
>>101095847
What are you even going on about? You're saying Saber's armour was more impressive than Saints because it can tank Ea. Regarding the physical factor, Ea isn't impressive. Regarding Enuma Elish, it wasn't even used at full power and it still nearly vaporized it.
>>
>>101095907
>the grail
The Grail is a distortion, so it and everything related to the war would just pop against IB.
>>
>>101094719
As the one that started actually stating scenarios for Shirou & Biribiri and Styil, lemme say stop spouting bullshit. I hadn't even gotten to Touma, yet.
>>
>>101095865
Kamachi has said that if he hears about something interesting in mythology, he goes out and buys a book about it and studies up on it to make sure he gets his shit right.

I wouldn't be surprized if he was pretty much an expert in a bunch of different mythologys.
>>
>>101095817
>Which is also true for Shirou. I don't see your point.
Both universes are chock-full of characters that can kill the protagonist of the other universe. You seem to think that any point that refutes you is automatically being used to elevate Shirou's odds.
>>
>>101095883
It make him mad though.
>>
>>101096001

Like Saber has against everything, you mean?

Touma doesn't have precog, he has Eye of The Mind. Like Saber.

Who still got totally fucked up by Souichiro
>>
>>101096001
Nope, he needs to touch one of their cores. They'd just lose mana extremely rapidly.
>>
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>>101096015
Not necessarily. Each would still have different personalities and their own mind, but for example Touma would just be a student at Fuyuki with his parents out of the country or whatever.

>>101096024
Why do you think Lancer had to use his runes you faggot?
>DEEN
I want /v/ to leave.
>>
>>101095815

Touma killed Izzard dummy with his hand, and he was a construct with an actual body. It was a bit slow though.
>>
>>101095903
>Kirei would just cocky like he does in Fate and get wrecked.
>Rin gives Touma her knife
>All the prana stored in it needed to kill Kirei is instantly lost
Whoops.
>They don't even show up until F/HA.
Bazette was one of the first entrants. If she hadn't gotten betrayed by Kirei, she'd have been there for FSN. Hence 'unconventional scenarios'.
>>
>>101095907
He's not real because he's still linked to the grail.
>>
>>101096105
He'd just laugh at Touma for being such a retard.

>>101096109
>Touma doesn't have precog, he has Eye of The Mind
Touma has a limited version of it.
It only works on magical things.
>>
>>101096120
Technically Touma just dealt him a fatal wound, then Stiyl burned him to a crisp and the real Izzard obliterated him.
>>
>>101096001
Rin, Souichiro, and Kirei aren't Servants.
>>
>>101096091
>You seem to think that any point that refutes you is automatically being used to elevate Shirou's odds.
Or rather, that those sweeping generalizations are moot points since they affect both protagonists.
>A lot of people can kill them!
Doesn't mean anything when I already said the story would play out differently based on the character.
>>
>>101095785
He has to Punch them first.
>>
Touma would probably need to touch a servant for a while, like with Fiamma's giant sword or Accels wings.
>>
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>>101094640
>Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death [Noble Phantasm]
>Gae Bolg.
>The attack delivers damage equal to the opponent's own health limit plus the damage from the spear itself, so the wound will be fatal no matter the opponent once they are struck. If the target has "100HP", the attack will deliver "the damage caused by the spear + 100."
>>
>>101096116
>Not necessarily. Each would still have different personalities and their own mind, but for example Touma would just be a student at Fuyuki with his parents out of the country or whatever.
Except Shirou's power and his character are entirely reliant on his upbringing. You can't have one without the other.
>>
>>101096037
>Regarding the physical factor, Ea isn't impressive.
Do you know how much energy is produced from moving tectonics, son? Are you taking the piss?
>Regarding Enuma Elish, it wasn't even used at full power and it still nearly vaporized it.
It doesn't matter. Regardless of full power, just the basic rotations of the segments is equivalent to tectonic movement. That is the power Saber's armour had to contend with, as well as the conceptual attack itself.
>>
>>101096123
>Touma grips the dagger with his left hand
Problem solved.

>>101096123
>Hence 'unconventional scenarios'.
But we're talking about F/SN, not 'what-if's. It doesn't even matter since Nasu already said Bazette and Lancer would most likely win, implying that both Shirou and Touma are boned.
>>
>>101096154
Not anymore. At that point, he's existing just fine with no link to anything.
>>
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>>101095907
>>
>>101096259
Hence why this discussion falls apart when you examine it too closely.

Realistically speaking, Touma can't use magic so he wouldn't even get command seals, wouldn't summon his own servant, and would go on with life oblivious to the events of the 5th war.
>>
>>101095847
Most of the Saint's feats are more straightforward.

Like making 100m wide shockwaves that basically pulverize trees and mountain surfaces, throwing around radio towers and flying fortresses, going through 3 kilometers of walls in a second, etc.

Notably unlike Servants they're much stronger and faster than they are naturally durable, they have to constantly maintain durability spells or they rip themselves apart with their own strength. It's mentioned you can hypothetically beat one by messing with their durability spells, it's just hard to do that before they kill you.
>>
>>101096279
>Do you know how much energy is produced from moving tectonics, son? Are you taking the piss?
I thought we already went over the whole
>Enuma Elish =/= Physical power
deal? If we're returning to that, can you explain to me why Excalibur couldn't destroy the stone sword or Rider's nails since it has nearly the same output as Ea?

>Regardless of full power, just the basic rotations of the segments is equivalent to tectonic movement.
But the output isn't equivalent to tectonic movement. F/HA deals with the actual limitations when used at full power.
>>
I guess it's semi related. Has somebody in here the newest /a/ powerlevel chart?
>>
>>101096109

The difference is that he can kill her by brushing his fucking finger against her.

>>101096112

Except IB has always instant dispelled shit. It breaks legendary weapons upon fucking contact. There is no need to touch a core on a construct, it negates it completely and instantly. the only exceptions are near god-tier shit (so maybe Ea?) that overcomes the negation rate, which he deflects most of the time

>>101096200

I never argued that he wouldnt get wrecked by them. But since he swapped places, Rin is an ally and they could tag team Souichiro easily as long as Rin ranges him out while Touma fights caster. Kotomine would be the hard part.
>>
>>101096366
>Fukou Da
I'm sure he'll get dragged into it somehow.
>>
>>101095708
Would he have been able to kill Archer if he used this one>>101094171 instead of the thrown one?
>>
>>101096428
Don't forget that every saint also has crazy luck.

Or was that just Kanzaki?
>>
>>101096310
The how was the grail able to spawn out of him and use him as its core in UBW?
>>
>>101096281
>Problem solved.
Not really. Even if he holds and punches it with his left hand, he doesn't have the ability to release the prana to finish off Kirei.
>>
>>101096192

He was pretty clearly decaying anon. He would have died in a few more minutes, and he could barely even move as is.
>>
>>101096366
>implying Touma has that kind of luck
>>
>>101096487
I think she was just "lucky" because so many of her friends were willing to die for her to protect her.
>>
>>101096491
>he doesn't have the ability to release the prana
What? The dagger is activated independently of the user's prana. It works through an incantation that activates its enchantment.
>>
>>101096455
>But since he swapped places, Rin is an ally and they could tag team Souichiro easily as long as Rin ranges him out while Touma fights c
Rin doesn't start as an ally.
>>
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Alright, Touma scenario

>Awakening in the Emiya household. Sakura wants to know what happened to senpai and who is this guy
>Puts up a harmless pose and tries to talk her down. She calms. He pats her shoulder
>Sakura goes into shock and spasms
>Taiga calls out of class and rushes both to the hospital—doctors are confused and report she needs rest as every one of her muscles have fired off impossibly and there's signs of etc etc trauma needs rest to recover for about a week, along with check ups
>Touma stays the hospital
>Rider visits
>ERABE

- Make no sudden movements and sheepishly ask if Sakura is a friend of hers
- Places self in front of Sakura's bed because this woman obviously smells of blood

Either way this one's fifty/fifty: Rider Nails him, or listens to his story. I'll let anon pick, but the obvious outcome of Rider Nailing him is pic related for Sakura
>>
>>101096479
Nasu did answer that. Basically yes but the thing is that Archer already know how hax GB is so he would get the fuck out of it's range before Lancer invoke it's name
>>
HOW TO WIN DA HORY GRILL WITH TOUMA: A PRIMER

STEP ONE: HIDE TOUMA
STEP TWO: WAIT FOR HORY GRILL TO MANIFEST
STEP THREE: HAVE TOUMA TOUCH GRILL

TOUMA WINS WITH MINIMAL EFFORT.
>>
>>101096109
>Eye of The Mind
>Like Saber

Saber does not have it. She has Instinct.
>>
>>101096455
I'd say that EA could kill Touma but Gil would never use it on him. If he did it would probably be low output.
>>
>>101096581
Are you implying that Touma would destroy mages just be coming into contact with them?
>>
>>101096581
>Places self in front of Sakura's bed because this woman obviously smells of blood
Obviously, this is easy.
>>
>>101096625
Would you really win it if it breaks/becomes non-magical?
>>
>>101096579

If they swapped places, Rin has known Touma for years and likely has a crush on him or at least considers him a good person enough to save.
>>
>>101096442
>If we're returning to that, can you explain to me why Excalibur couldn't destroy the stone sword or Rider's nails since it has nearly the same output as Ea?
Because those weapons are capable of taking that level of energy? Hence they can be used to penetrate Saber's armour? Are you deliberately being dumb? If those weapons weren't durable enough, they'd break as soon as their users tried to wield them.
>F/HA deals with the actual limitations when used at full power.
It tears open Gaia's Supreme Reality Marble is what it does. CCC even goes on to mention it can in fact destroy the planet.
>>
>>101090431

Actually isn't Saber's body much different than other servants?
>>
Touma tells to Kotomine, Archer, Rin, Ilya that they are not living their lives correctly and punches them in the face.
Shirou asks Nisaka to explain further and gets railgunned.
>>
>>101096645
Nah. Touma was able to deflect Gungnir, which consumed an entire universe to power itself up.
>>
>>101095684
They describe the key in Fate route and that's its only mention. Every other use, the Key of Babylon was implied to have been used beforehand.
>>
>>101096618
I see, I never noticed that thanks.
>>
>>101096109
>Saber
>Eye of the Mind
Stop posting.

>>101096645
There is 0 chances of Gil using it. He only used it for Shirou because he was backed into a corner when it was already too late. There is no way he would use it for a filthy mongrel of the modern era.

>>101096579
Rin allies with Shirou because she already knew him from school and he clearly had no idea what he was doing.
>>
New Scenario:
Touma and Saber in the Holy Grail Grand Prix
>>
>>101096677

Would you really win if the Grail is a fagGrail that always tries to fuck over humanity no matter what you actually wish for?
>>
>>101096581
Wouldn't he just save Sakura with one poke from his right hand?
>>
>>101096700
>Because those weapons are capable of taking that level of energy?
>Slab of stone
>Comparable durability to noble phantasms like Excalibur and Ea
Ok.

>>101096700
>CCC even goes on to mention it can in fact destroy the planet.
[Citation_Needed]
>>
>>101088901
Remember that UBW is only active when Saber is present. If they are switched before the wars start, it means it stays with him and doesn't go to Touma.
>>
>>101096066
>Kamachi has said that if he hears about something interesting in mythology, he goes out and buys a book about it and studies up on it to make sure he gets his shit right.

Then why can't he into physics?
>>
>>101096573
>In the Fate scenario Shirou Emiya utilizes it by stabbing it into Kirei's chest, and then punching it after gathering his prana into his hand while calling the word of release.
It requires some degree of prana control/magecraft ability to use right.
>>
>>101094439
That thing was invisible iirc.
>>
>>101096625
Implying any of the mages would let Touma live if they found out he anted to destroy the grail. The The Einzberns would send everything at him.
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>>101096677
I'd say saving the world by destroying the source of concentrated human evil to be a win, yes.

Unless you're Kirei or Gil, but they're fags anyways.
>>
>>101096581
I thought the VN opened with Shirou meeting Saber then jumped backwards. That would put Touma showing up in the shed with an angry Lancer standing in front of him. This would also have a Saber summoned and bound to the Shirou who has now been catapulted into the Raildexverse. So then Saber's either pulled with him into Raildexverse, still bound to him, or has her contract severed. In which case, she's going to need to find a new master fast.
>>
>>101096809
Presumably he doesn't give enough of a crap with Espers.

The physics in Heavy Object for example are all done really well, since it's all supposed to be possible.

Espers warp the laws of physics anyways, he has no reason to give a shit.
>>
>>101089385
>When Tohsaka is trained in martial arts and can use magic to give herself augmented mobility and super punches
>>
>>101090431
SSJ God Goku would fuck the entire Nasuverse solo.
>>
>>101096839

>implying they would know about him
>>
>>101096824
That's speculation. I'd argue that all you need is direct contact and recite the words.
>>
>>101096683
Then Shirou didn't almost die in a fire and gain magical sword powers. Then Touma never had Imagine Breaker put in him.
>>
>>101096809
The Science Side is more like The SCIENCE! Side, since most of their non-technological stuff is magic/reality warping with a different name.
>>
>>101096707
No, just her soul. The body the grail provides is the same as any other servant. When she dies her soul returns to the hill while the other servants get melted down and returned to the timeless place which I forget the name of.
>>
>>101096865
She's going to be a part of Touma's harem is what he meant.
>>
>>101095970
Say the thrown properties of Gae Bolg are different as you say. I can accept that, given what canon demonstrated in GB vs RA. Still doesn't help the fact that the anon is wrong and grossly underestimating Lancer's speed and ability. Again:

>0 to 50 m in the blink of an eye
>>
>>101096777
>Weapons that repeatedly clash against each other throughout combat, holding out even against legendary weapons of heroes with mystical attributes
Okay, you're deliberately being retarded. Fair enough.
>[Citation_Needed]
It's been posted in these threads enough times, find it yourself.
>>
>>101096709
>Kotomine
Hee's gonna pull an Acqua
>Archer
Acqua
>Rin, Ilya
Maybe
>>
>>101096809

He gets 90% of it just fine. It's numbers that fuck him up. Like slowmoving bullets and the like. He obviously does his research in SCIENCE too, by he isn't actually a physicist/mathematician.
>>
>>101096861
>Presumably he doesn't give enough of a crap with Espers.
What a shame that's more interesting than his magic side.
>>
>>101095132
Shirou can't use mana anyhow. He only has his Od.
>>
>>101096905
Once again, this is why everything breaks down if you actually examine the proposed scenario of character swap. Shirou wouldn't get the same allies or meet the same people and neither would Touma, so going by the events of what happened in both stories is silly.
>>
>>101096709
>Misaka murdering some ginger-haired kid in the street in cold blood
Nice try.
>>
>>101096116
>Why do you think Lancer had to use his runes you faggot?

To find Tohsaka without wasting effort, and to burn the evidence (and also get soot on Gil's slav outfit)

lrn2nasu.
>>
>>101096733
He used it on Shrou before he got into UBW and it was blocked by Archer. It's the reason he recognized it when he tried to pull it out again.
>>
>>101096834
Speaking of Invisible Things, what impact would it have on the war?
>>
>>101096865

>implying it matters when she's being tsun tsun for him
>>
>>101096869
Would imagine breaker work on Goku?
>>
>>101096989
Not like she doesn't try to kill other people.
>>
>>101096760
Touma sucks all of the bad luck away, allowing Lancer to win.
>>
>>101096941
I'm that anon. I never underestimated anything. All I said was that there was a reason why there's a range limit on the gay bulge NP. Remember that this discussion follows all the way back to the original point that Accelerator could possibly survive gay bulge since he would attack the concept directly.
>>
>>101096873
Touma would have to get around first before knowing shit.
>>
>>101096905

>Then Touma never had Imagine Breaker put in him.

He was born with IB though. It never got "put into" him. Good point about Shirou though.
>>
>>101097024
It's not as strong as everyone assumed it was.
>>
>>101097024
Not much probably. Touma doesn't use it.

If it got out there's nothing anyone could do against it, but that's unlikely to happen.
>>
>>101096772
No, because all of the worms are under her skin. He'd have to reach in and palm her heart.
>>
>>101096556
Tsuchi mentioned that if she entered a lottery she would win every time

>"But Kami-yan, how's the feeling when someone is lucky? When there's only one winning lottery ticket and someone will always draw it, doesn't that mean that other people won't be able to ever win it?"

>>101096809
Because that shit is boring.
>>
>>101096945
>Okay, you're deliberately being retarded. Fair enough.
No rebuttal? I'll take that as a concession then.

>It's been posted in these threads enough times, find it yourself.
Nope, burden of proof is on you. If it's so easy to find, then show me. Or perhaps you can't~
>>
>>101096869
Fuck off.
>>
>>101097084
Eh, it blocked Fiamma's durability/distance/speed-ignoring planet buster just fine.

Othinus wrecks universes, you can't blame him for losing to that.
>>
>>101096801
>UBW is only active when Saber is present
That's Avalon. UBW is completely independent of Saber.
>>
>>101097084
>It's not as strong as everyone assumed it was
Othinus, crushed it thanks to Touma being as luckless as he is.
>>
>>101096772
He'll just need to go deeper to do it.
>>
>>101097024

It would rape everything if someone is stupid enough to only chop off his hand. But that's unlikely and Touma doesnt even give a shit about it, so minimal effect.
>>
>>101097001
Ah, I forgot about that. Kind of weird how he would use it so easily when he was so stingy about it for most of Fate and UBW.
>>
Curry Priest would punch him dead.

Nothing to discuss here.
>>
>>101097047
Nothing can despell the Lancer curse
>>
>>101097081
Aleister implies that he had a hand in it, I can't remember which volume it was in though.
>>
>>101097100
>>101097168
Never mind then Sakura is still fucked.
>>
>>101097224
It's also implied that Aleister had it.
>>
Am I correct that assuming in general, Indexverse is above Nasuverse? I don't think Nasu usually goes above planet buster level, which is why beings like Gaia and Arc are so strong, but Index does?
>>
>>101097100
Touma can affect things under the skin.

When Fiamma used that one spell that attacked his bones, Touma just had to hit his shins and the spell broke.
>>
>>101097224

Nope, all Crowley said was that it was important to bring the bearer of IB into AC from the outside. Likely to stimulate Hyouka. Crowley might have had a hand in some of the more horrible misfortunes of child Touma to get his dad to send him to AC.

He's always had IB
>>
>>101097262
Othinus rapes everything.

Below that, Nasuverse has some that could be called universal-multiversal, so that should rape most everything else in Toaru.

Vast majority of Toaru rapes vast majority of Nasu, but there are some exceptions.
>>
>>101089486
You're right. Touma can beat Shinji, Illya, and has good odds against Tohsaka and the teacher (magic nullification for both offense and augmentation), but Kotomine would wipe the floor with him.

If Touma is fighting, yet the Grail's magic was cancelled, there's the need to question what happens to the mana and whatnot, and whether or not he's even considered a Master.

Are we assuming that the only thing he got from the grail was the seal? If that's the case, someone could cut off his arm and remove the seal, thus allowing the servant to manifest in the other person. Then again...
>>
Seeing Kirei murder TouMAN would be glorious.
>>
>>101097255

No it isn't.

>>101097262

Recent Indexverse puts some of the highest upper tier characters above, yes.
>>
>>101097336
>Cut off his arm
That's not a good plan anon.
>>
>>101096455
>When a Heroic Spirit emerges into this world, he first acquires a Spiritual Core. The Heroic Spirit then materialises as the body envelopes this Spiritual Core. In order to defeat a Heroic Spirit, one must inflict damage to the Spiritual Core. The Spiritual Core gradually diminishes as a result of massive magical energy expenditure or sustaining bodily damage. Under these adverse conditions, the Heroic Spirit’s expenditure of magical energy will escalate, and should damaged be inflicted through powerful magical energy, curse, or Noble Phantasm, the Spiritual Core will be destroyed, and the Heroic Spirit will no long be able to remain materialised. The heart and head are connected directly to the Spiritual Core, thus they are the weaknesses of Heroic Spirits. Sustaining damage at these locations will significantly weaken the Spiritual Core.
>it negates it completely and instantly. the only exceptions are near god-tier shit (so maybe Ea?)
The reason why Servants need mana to stay in the world is because Gaia is constantly trying to remove things that shouldn't be here, Touma's ability works as an extreme version of this. Touma isn't dispelling any servants unless he touches their core, all that's gonna happen is them using up mana extremely fast to keep their body materialized.
>>
>>101097192
>>101097350

>Touma chops off his arm
>>
>>101097413
From what we've seen in NT 9, Touma would just need to break a finger.
>>
>>101097190
He likes bravery but he also hates arrogance, pride and stupidity (which is pretty ironic). If someone is willing to face him he has enough respect for them to allow them to see his weapon. He'd never use EA on cowards though.
>>
>>101097409

No, Touma has always always ALWAYS instant dispelled pure magical constructs instantly. You cant argue against this. It is a basic mechanic. Stop trying to delude IB's potency. If it is made of magic, it is instantly dispelled/destroyed, be it a construct, attack, or weapon.
>>
>>101097262
Index is building upon itself and thus there is power creep while Nasu verse kind of just repeats or goes for parallel universe stories and thus the power scale stays constant
>>
>>101097409
We know for a fact that Touma's ability is of a higher order than Gaia's.. universe vs. world. So if he touches a core, it should be instantly dispelled. Touching a servant is a debatable.
>>
>>101097447
Can a (skillful) coward annoy him too much that he uses EA on him?
>>
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>>101096772
Read between the lines: I implied just that.

>>101096657
Then Touma meets his end at a Nail and we're back to the previous pic

>>101096652
Sakura's worms are constructs bound together by magic. Without the delicate magic, Zouken couldn't maintain the worms. This isn't on the level of Akiha and other genuine demons. Zouken living so long is STRICTLY because of magecraft. Touma coming in contact with that magecraft (ie: touching Sakura) would have two immediate effects:

- Cutting off and dissipating any odic force/maryouku in Sakura's body at that given instant
- Destroying every single worm inside of her (Remember, the "heart" worm was not within her at that point in time).

Both would no doubt lead to health complications, no matter how temporary. The Od would eventually return, just like him interrupting Biribiri's power. That would just be temporary. The worms would have to be reinserted. Coincidentally, Touma would have a devil of a time being devoured by worms due to IB.

>>101096842
I put Touma at day one. That is, waking up in the shed in the Emiya compound. It's the easiest place to start with this experiment without having to explain a thousand and one factors, such as

- Why didn't Rin kill him (never went to school, Sakura had a spazz attack)
- Why didn't Illya run into him

etc etc.

Anyway, continuing next comment.
>>
>>101097508
>Touma has always always ALWAYS instant dispelled pure magical constructs instantly
>Fiamma's giant fire sword
>Accels Black Wings
>>
>>101097508
Not true.

He couldn't completely reflect some of Fiamma's attacks, which were pure magic.
>>
>>101097336
> and the teacher (magic nullification for both offense and augmentation)
Unfortunately Kazuki is an monster even without his augmented strength. He's the perfect counter to Touma.
>>
>>101097409
Why are you downplaying IB? If there's one thing that's been consistent in its portrayal, it's that the things it works on it works immediately. If anything, touching a core would instantly destroy it.
>>
>>101097262
It just hit galaxy smashing and universe fucking levels, but Othinus is kind of an exception. There's a couple others that might be that strong, but they haven't gotten the chance to really flex their powerlevels yet.
>>
>>101097598
>it's that the things it works on it works immediately
Sure, that's why he could touch Accels wings during their rematch.
>>
>>101094069
Only after 10031 fights with a god, anon
>>
>>101097534
>Sakura's worms are constructs bound together by magic.
Doesn't he have to touch the worms then?

>I put Touma at day one.
Then he doesn't get a command seal.
>>
>>101097409

It takes a literal norse god to overwhelm IB completely, and archangel-tier shit (think near-planet busting) to even sustain against contact of IB for longer than a second.
>>
If Shirou can get Dainslief he should be fine, that sword can take out 99% of both verses.
>>
>>101097598
In Volume 1 it works a bit on innocentius but it's being replenished so fast he can't get rid of it.
Same with accel's black wings.
>>
>>101097598
Innocentius.
>>
>>101097593
He's the perfect counter to any melee oriented fighter really.
>>
>>101097526
Anyone who is that much of a coward wouldn't fight GIl head on. Most of the time he will just find them and proceeds to GOB them to death.
>>
>>101097613
Aiwass should be stronger based on comments from Crowley. Crowley himself we can't be sure about.
>>
>>101097657
The runes create Innocentius everytime he's destroyed.
>>
>>101097275
So is Sakura saved if he touches her boob?
>>
>>101088650
I would rather have Touma and Shirou going adventuring togheter
>>
>>101097573
>>101097589

Fiamma is stronger than the highest Nasuverse character, and it was implied Touma could still dispell them if he was able to keep his hand on it long enough.

Please don't care servants to Fiamma, it's not even in the same league potency-wise. They would instantly get dispelled. Ea, Avalon, and maybe Excalibur is just about the only things that have a chance against it for more than a second.
>>
What if Shirou was replaced by Fiamma?
>>
>>101097630

Why are you comparing Black Wing, which is probably on the level of Gil's Ea, to a servant?
>>
>>101097801
Fiamma is stronger than any Fate character by a wide margin.

The gap between him and Arc at her strongest isn't as large.
>>
>>101097508
You're a retard and you can't into reading comprehension, the body is a byproduct of the cores which feeds mana to the body to keep it materialized and not the other way around.
>Touma has always always ALWAYS instant dispelled pure magical constructs instantly
Did you even read Index?
>>
>>101097656

How does either apply to a servant, who is not getting instantly replenished?
>>
>>101097833
He's already shown skill in summoning.

But really he can win the war by himself, no one else is needed.
>>
>>101097845
Because essentially the wings are the same thing as a servant.
An ideal given form by magic.
>>
>Tfw Shiro awakens to UBW
>He's fighting someone who uses magnetism
>>
>>101097846

The point is Fiamma >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Servants, so saying that Touma couldn't instantly dispell Fiamma's attacks is a moot point.
>>
>>101097801
What's stronger, Fiamma's giant sword or Ea planet cutter?
>>
>>101097907
>use bronze swords instead
Problem solved.
>>
>>101097903
The scale is completely different in both conceptual and raw power terms.
Sorry, but they're not comparable at all.
>>
>>101097940
Fiamma's 40km flame sword is literally his weakest attack, he was just fucking around.

Ea probably wins against it.
>>
>>101097508
Except for constructs that replace themselves just as fast when properly-fueled. Like Dragon's Breath or Styil's fire summon. So anon is generally correct in that a Servant, already a huge containment of prana, would quickly evaporate unless their Master had a windfall of backup Prana (post-HF!Sakura) or they were bonded to the land (Assassin).

Or had their own physical body (post-Zero!Gilgamesh).
>>
>>101097846
Is Fiamma a planet buster? Because if whoever this guy is, then Arc is screwed.
>>
>>101097114
>Weapons shown to be capable of holding up against legendary weapons in combat, and damaging things made from the same material without taking damage themselves
>Being 'slabs of rocks and metal' making any difference whatsoever
>Not a rebuttal to your mindless claim
I really was giving you too much credit. I'm sorry.
>Nope, burden of proof is on you. If it's so easy to find, then show me. Or perhaps you can't
More like can't be arsed, I've better things to be doing than cater to morons. Even if it weren't true, it doesn't detract from Ea's perfomance regardless.
>>
>>101097871

Have you? According to you, Hyouka wouldn't get instantly dispelled by IB because her core is inside her body, even though it is blatantly said that he would instantly destroy her the moment he touches her with IB.

The only things that go against what I have said are either instant replenishing (does not apply to servants) or on a power tier that is far beyond that of a fucking servant.
>>
>>101097996

Above Planet Buster, we also don't see what he can really do in his strongest form because he got nerfed before he could do anything
>>
>>101097996

Basically has arc's power, but without Gaia's restriction. So he can +1 something beyond Gaia.
>>
>>101097144
Sorry, I meant Shiro's Avalon.

Anyway, the swords that grew in his body were a mutation that manifested from a combination of Avalon AND his origin of swords. If Avalon activates only when Saber is around, Shirou gets neither his body of steel or his healing factor when transferred to Toumaland, even if Avalon stays in his body.
>>
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>>101097999
>Mindless claim
Are you really this dense? You're arguing NPs are horrifically strong, but they go toe-to-toe with nails and rocks. Berserker's sword was stated to literally be a stone slab. It wasn't enchanted in any way; yet, it can stand up to Excalibur. Ergo, Saber's armour isn't that impressive for tanking Ea's physical attacks.

>better things to do
>Still posting an hour later
Furthermore, you still can't get a source that's apparently so easy to locate.
Well either way, you concede so it doesn't bother me~
>>
>>101097903

No, it's really not even comparable. The wings are constantly regenerating. Servants aren't.
>>
>>101097955
Well, moving something 40km long from the base following an angle makes the end move really fucking fast, it would be way faster than Ea
>>
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>>101097801
>>101097940
>Fiamma is stronger than the highest Nasuverse character
Kanata would punch Fiamma into pulp. And she's not even the most powerful character in the Nasuverse.
>>
>>101098149

>Target Kanata
>Fiamma is now Kanata +1
>>
>>101097940
I would say EA.
>>
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>>101097636
>Doesn't he have to touch them
No, because the worms in her body are acting as pseudo-circuits. They're already in her nerves and whatnot—they're simply quiet. Because these are worms that are directly connected to and are acting upon Sakura, it stands to reason anything that dispelled Sakura's magic would also dispel the things that would work to refuel that magic.

>Command Seal
Never implied he had one. In this instance, you wouldn't see Saber (From Touma, anyway). It's the same as Shirou above in Academy City. He's just there one day. And he made some headway with Tsukoyomi-sensei before the real shit gets in line. In Touma's case, it's absolute ground zero, before the war kicks off.

>>101097534
>Rider goes to kill
>Touma reads and deflects the place where the nail is supposed to go
>Nail ceases to exist, Rider pauses
>Sakura starts and awakes, pleads with Rider
>Rider reluctantly backs down now that she has a working idea of what happened
>Gives Touma the 411 on what he's just walked into and why it's a bad idea for him to walk away now
>Rider using Touma
>Touma realizing her next attack will probably be with the scalples she lifted from a stock room in the hospital
>He now has to play second guard for Zouken's inevitable arrival
>Fukou da
>>
>Innocentius
>Fire
Shirou goes into PTSD mode and just fucks up everything.
>>
Fiamma vs ORT!
>>
>>101098124
>Are you really this dense? You're arguing NPs are horrifically strong, but they go toe-to-toe with nails and rocks. Berserker's sword was stated to literally be a stone slab. It wasn't enchanted in any way; yet, it can stand up to Excalibur. Ergo, Saber's armour isn't that impressive for tanking Ea's physical attacks.
Except, you know, it straight up holding up to attacks that destroy that same material. Clashes between servants destroy surrounding terrain, so the reason something supposedly just 'made from rock' is holding up is because it's just that tough. It's not really that complicated, I know you're doing this on purpose now, so please stop pretending.
>Well either way, you concede so it doesn't bother me~
Well I'll consider your inability to comprehend something so simple as a concession too.
I guess that's the end of the argument.
>>
>>101088726
>The ability to copy stuff doesn't protect you from high voltage.
Saber and Avalon does though.
>>
>>101097996
There are multiple levels of this guy. Base Fiamma basically has the power of anything to do with the right hand, the Holy Right. It raises his power to that needed to defeat his opponent, ignores speed, distance, and durability, automatically blocks attacks including lasers, and according to him he can easily boil oceans and sink continents.

He only has a set number of "shots" though, and everytime he summons the HR it degrades until he uses another shot.

Then he gets Index's spells, and he fixes that, plus he gets all her bullshit. He also threw down a strike capable of destroying all of Eurasia while in this mode.

Then he becomes the One Above God (except not really), and he can dust planets and copy anything that happened in the bible, including God's shit.
>>
>>101098291
Couldn't she just turn him into stone?
>>
>>101097043

No. He isn't using magic. Chi is natural plus he has enough raw physical strength and speed to just instant kill him.
>>
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>>101098225
Except, you know, Kanata canonically has that power too. Only she also smashes multiple planets with punches and can regenerate from nothing whilst gaining immunity to anything that kills her. So for a more accurate rundown.
>Kanata punches Fiamma, he turns into pulp
>Offchance that The Holy Right activates before she pulps him: it either fails to hurt her, or she dies, revives, then it fails to hurt her, and punches Fiamma into pulp.
>>
>>101096869


Saber could one shot Goku with an Excalibur blast. Excalibur can blow up an entire city in one shot.
>>
>>101088726
>You can't summon servants with the Imagine Breaker.
Then he cuts Imagine Breaker off, problem solved.
>>
>>101098481
Now the question is, who will fall for the bait?
>>
>>101098359
>Except, you know, it straight up holding up to attacks
Right, so Ea and Excalibur have a similar physical output to the stone slab. Far from the 'tectonic force' you claimed.

>Well I'll consider your inability to comprehend something so simple as a concession too.
Still waiting on that source~
>>
>>101098359
Isn't it because they're noble phantasms when wielded by servants? Berserker's slab of stone was from his temple so it probably had some bullshit holy property as well.

That's how Lancelot was able to damage servants with lampposts and whatnot. He can turn everything into a noble phantasm though.
>>
whoever wins
tohno shiki kills

fucking powerlevel threads just keep on happening
>>
>>101098497

He'd still be an esper, and you just release the Invisible Thing

Good going.
>>
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>>101098359
Lemme poke a hole in this argument you two are having.

Berserker's stone sword is his summoning talisman. That is, the catalyst used to summon him. It has phantasmal value (not as a NP, though) due to it being a pillar from one of his few-remaining temples.

It survives melee combat because it's magically endued in accordance to the rules of Nasuphysics (older the item the more potent its magical ability—stone of slab from the Age of Gods).

Further, neither combatant is ever using their FULL strength when they're in the middle of melee jousting. That's the whole purpose of "Noble Phantasms". NPs are that Servant's full strength.

So Saber won't be breaking ANYONE's weapon unless she goes all out with her Magic Burst skill and also calls upon her sword's true name. Likewise, Herc won't be breaking anything unless he acts on the Shooting Hundred Heads.
>>
>>101098481
>implying he wouldn't just be covered in a dust cloud
>>
>>101098132
Hypothesizing that in a second at one meter he moves the sword by 30 centimeters, the tip would move at 1'200'000 meters per second
Or I suck at elementary school geometry
>>
Buy gun - use levitation spell to float out of reach - shoot him dead.
Caster can beat Touma.

Bonus Question at Index Villains. If you have City Buster attacks why not aim at the ground and make the explosion kill Touma?
>>
>>101098468
>He copies Kanata's power
>He gains her regen ability in all aspects
>They both duke it out forever with neither side winning

Boring.
>>
>>101098522
Berserker's sword is just plain rock.
>>
>>101098605
You mean the explosion caused by the attack? He blocks it.

Course Carissa did that and it worked out for her, but she just overwhelmed his rate of negation.
>>
>>101098579
>It survives melee combat because it's magically endued in accordance to the rules of Nasuphysics (older the item the more potent its magical ability—stone of slab from the Age of Gods).

This doesn't make any sense. You're saying some random shmuck can go and dig up a rock from ages past and all of a sudden, it'll have more durability than modern rocks? There is simply no way this would go unnoticed by regular humans.
>>
>>101098518
Are you seriously saying it's to do with the energy from the weapons, not the wielders? Excalibur and Ea are the exceptions when they have an actual output of their own. I'm not even sure why I'm still arguing with you about this, Berserker striaght up crushed an Excaliblast with his own strength. Please, just...stop posting.

>>101098522
Pretty much. They're far from just 'slabs of whatever', since they're being weilded by servants. Though the strength factor counts for a lot, since not just anything can pierce Saber's armour, enchanted or not.
>>
>>101098588
He moved it pretty damn fast.

>In the opening, he saw something like a wall of orange light.

>Kamijou was one of the closest ones to the scene, but he did not know that a giant sword 30 or 40 kilometers long had been swung down. After all, the base of the sword, was so far away it was almost disappearing off the horizon. A sizzling sound could be heard coming from the sword. It wiggled back and forth and then slowly lifted up much like an axe being pulled out of a large tree.

>“With something this big, aiming can be a pain,” Fiamma said cheerfully.

>Kamijou trembled as the giant sword that could split a mountain range in two was once more casually lifted up.

>It lifted up almost completely vertically.

>And then Fiamma’s sword swung down all at once.

>The air shook.

>It was almost directly above them.

>He had corrected his aim and dropped the giant sword down from directly above. The Elizalina Alliance city was sliced in a straight line and the stone building Kamijou and the others were in took the brunt of the blow causing it to be almost completely smashed to smithereens.

>A cloud formed.

>The difference in air pressure created by the slicing of the atmosphere created something similar to a contrail.

>That strike had affected the weather.
>>
>>101098656
f you blast a city it generates enough non magic force to kill thousands.

unless Touma gets new shit in not animated material he should be dead.
>>
>>101098579
>Saber won't be breaking ANYONE's weapon unless she goes all out with her Magic Burst skill
I don't even remember if she used that on Kojirou, but she sure bent the fuck out of his sword regardless.
>>
>>101098704
It's power up while in his possession, the same way that Avalon is very weak until Saber shows up.
>>
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>>101098719
I'm saying your position has holes in it when talking about physical strengths, which reduces Saber's armour's feat quite a bit.

So, are you just going to ignore the fact that you can't find a source and were bullshitting? If so, then this argument really is over~
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>>101098390
Imagine Breaker.

>>101098291
>Zouken doesn't pop up first
>Shinji does
>Gets into an argument with Touma, tells him to kindly fuck off this is family business
>Except Touma's responsible so he's not going anywhere
>They scrap, Shinji loses
>They're both kicked out because only faggots fight around the sick
>Rider strings Shinji up by his jollies and feeds on the Od he's not using
>Touma goes wtfmate
>Touma jumps in to stop, Rider keeps her damned distance and tosses another nail at him
>Bye bye nail
>Confirms his ability and let's Shinji go
>Threatens to kill him if he doesn't do what she says
>Rider "harem" now at 2
>Zouken to arrive that night
>>
>>101098798
Avalon is weak because it was made specifically for her by faeries; it's just a normal sheath otherwise. This is stated in the game and once more in F/Z I believe.

>It's power up while in his possession,
I'd like a citation on this.
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>>101098612
>He copies Kanata's power
>Implying he has that power
Yeah, no. Even if he did, he's not doing it before being pulped by a faster-than-light punch he can't even see coming.
>>
>>101098876
He does have that power. It's similar to Arc's +1 skill only that it isn't limited to Gaia.
>>
>>101098784
You mean like throwing off debris and shit?

Touma's precog is pretty hax in that regard. He went straight through a huge wall of moving stone, and each rock explicitly could crush a powered suit. He also slipped through a "gapless" wall of tens of thousands of explosions.
>>
>>101098921
the power of wife beating!
>>
>>101098915
Technically he can only copy something if they do it with their right hand.
>>
>>101098834
Turn everything to stone except his right arm. Try touching eye contact.
>>
>>101098822
>I'm saying your position has holes in it when talking about physical strengths, which reduces Saber's armour's feat quite a bit.
Well your argument holds no water and is outright contradicted by the source material so...good going, I guess.
>So, are you just going to ignore the fact that you can't find a source and were bullshitting? If so, then this argument really is over~
I'll happily ignore you, but it's not bullshit, and it's really not my problem if you don't know about it already. And yes, this argument ended a while ago, although I'm not sure you had a valid point to begin with.
>>
>>101098970
Something affecting his body that way doesn't work.

He's completely immune to Divine Punishment for example without having to block anything.
>>
>>101098970
Honestly, it might not even work in the first place since it's attached to his body, so his body shouldn't get stoned.
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>>101098915
+1 has nothing to do with copying skills, it's just increasing power.

>>101098968
>Technically he can only copy something if they do it with their right hand.
Then it really has nothing to do with it.
>>
>>101099022
>Something affecting his body that way doesn't work.
That's why the "Petrus bears the cross" spell worked on him, right?
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>>101098982
>Your argument holds no water
>Contradicts source material
You haven't explained why nor did you give any citations, but ok.

> and it's really not my problem if you don't know about it already.
So you made a claim but couldn't back it up in the first place and are trying to deflect as hard as you can by repeating yourself. Nice~
>>
Remember when Index was about beating woman?
>>
>>101099105
That spell is just plain external force, no clue what you're talking about. In the LN it's made clear it hit his right shoulder primarily and kept him down that way.
>>
>>101099062
I still think Kanata isn't as strong as you think she is and is limited to the dreams in her story, especially considering she wasn't anywhere near top 3 in Nasu's power levels statement.

But we'll wait to see I guess.
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>>101098704
Welcome to Nasuphysics 101. Take notes if you intend to stay in this class.

And no, it's not EVERY random old rock. Certain old items and relics will become divine mysteries through influence of the planet, of magi, or because of rumor. The first example are weapons produced from the planet itself (Arc, Excalibur), the next instance is what we know are Mystic Codes (like Kiritsugu's Contender, or Volumen Hydragyrum). The third is the elevation of certain spirits into Heroic Spirit class, due to their fame and popularity (Note: Not the only way to become a Heroic or even a Divine Spirit).

Contrast with Lancelot's ability, which really IS to pick up a random rock off the street and turn it into a deadly weapon that can hold against divine mysteries easily greater than it.

To sum, you'd have to have a Divine Mystery that BREAKS other Divine Mysteries. Like Gae Dearg (pic related).
>>
>>101099123
It isn't still?

All that's different now is Touma beating up Othinus mentally instead of physically.
>>
>>101099206
>And no, it's not EVERY random old rock.
Isn't it? Where did it say it was from a holy temple or whatever? I recall it just being a slab underneath the temple or whatever.
>>
You know what always bothered me?
How Heracles uses that giant rock like sword instead of a proper bludgeon
>>
>>101099296
The edge looks somewhat sharp.

You can sharpen rocks you know.
>>
>>101099315
My point is that Heracles, in his legend always used a massive club made of olive wood.
The club and the lion's fur are the 2 most iconic things about him.
It just bothers me how Nasu ignored both.
>>
>>101099315
He was pointing out how Heracles was known for using a blunt weapon in the legends and the rock would be a perfect fit.
No need to be cheeky ya cunt.
>>
>>101098468
Doomsday's calling and he wants his shit back.
>>
>Shirou and the TouMAN excange worlds.

Still have MC protection so the world changes to let them win.
>>
>>101099479
>Shirou traces Gungnir
>Gains power of a Magic God
Sounds about right.
>>
>>101099519
>Shirou
>even surviving the meeting with Stiyl
>>
>>101099519
He'll probably destroy himself before he can do anything with it.
Archer would barely replicate the real Excalibur.
>>
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>>101098704
And it's also not a matter of "more durability". It just has now gained a concept different or improved to that of its origin. Pegasus, summoned by Rider, is just a regular winged horse. Granted that Unicorns and Pegasus are high when the tiers of Phantasmal Beasts are concerned, but this specific Pegasus is special, having been around as long (if not longer than) dragons. That and its feats qualify it as a Phantasmal Beast on the level of dragons themselves.

That's the other key of what makes Bellerophon so potent a Noble Phantasm. She equipped it on a horse that was broken as fuck even for a phantasmal horse, and turned it into a kill-frenzy level attack that could mow down whole armies.

But even that was nothing in the face of a blade whose full power can mow down entire fortresses and is famed for cutting ANYTHING.
>>
>>101099633
Random cut in:

So what's the story behind Archer and Excaliblasting?
>>
>>101099274
They wouldn't have used it were it just any old rock. The temple itself was already enough to qualify as a divine mystery, or had something about it that qualified as a divine mystery.
>>
>>101099566
>Not reading further upthread where it's already established he would
>>
>>101099566
A couple of dodges more and then the same thing Touma did
>>
>>101099657
>Sword that cuts through anything
Do you even realize how many of those there are in both verses?
>>
>>101099665
Archer claims he could in UBW. We all called bullshit. Nasu also called bullshit. CCC lets him use an Excaliblast as one of his ultimate attacks. Nasu 'retconned' it so that he can use an inferior version of an Excaliblast.

>>101099657
>It just has now gained a concept different or improved to that of its origin.
As >>101099206 pointed out, it didn't gain any properties when picked up by Berserker. Only Lancelot can pull off that shit.

>Pegasus
>Just a regular winged horse
I hope you realize the irony.
>>
>>101099633
But it doesn't say that the lance is the original one, she may have made it at the moment
>>
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>>101099665
Some retconning.

UBW: Archer specifically states he can get pretty close to a copy of Excaibur. The status screen lays out the definitions for ubw so it's accepted as canon
HF: Shirou specifically traces Saber's sword in order to destroy the Greater Grail. Again, ubw has already been defined so it's accepted as canon.

Materials III: Statement within that says explicitly that Archer cannot trace Excalibur, which is now identified as a Last Phantasm.

Fans: Argue endlessly over years about this flub/fuck up.

Fate/Extra CCC: Nasu finally puts this shit to bed in rewriting that Archer cannot replicate all the components of Excalibur, therefore replaces with similar functional properties for a lesser effect.

Summary: The person who helped write/edit Materials III should be fired.
>>
>>101099711
Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if someone reprocessed material from old temples and shit and ended up with stuff like super steel rebar.
>>
>>101099808
Too many to count. I didn't say it was Excalibur's most-defined trait. THAT would be in the sword's flowery name: Excalibur: Sword of Promised Victory
>>
>>101099888
It doesn't matter. Archer can't handle alien geometries or power beyond his threshold. He'll have to compensate with weakened copies.
>>
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So, could Shiki cut IB and stop it from working? Or would LB just not have any lines?
>>
>>101100091
Would be strange. Both MEoDP and IB are both tapped into their verse's version of a "universal constant."
>>
>>101099975
In the hands of the right person, they would end up with an item or vehicle that guards against or projects a specific concept—ie A Conceptual Weapon. Like "introducing mortality to that which is immortal", or "rejecting the influence of the world's interference", or "blocks the possible or improbable damage from projectiles". That kinda thing.
>>
>>101099994
Of course, that's not really indicative of it's real power either.
Excalibur can't cut through anything, nor does it bring victory all the time.
>>
>>101100091
She could only cut T's hand.
>>
>>101097702
And the core would reconstruct the body every time it's touched.
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>>101100091
Something like this
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>>101100206
The core does not have an unlimited prana supply.
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>>101100183
It's only not worked twice, and that was against a concept strong than it (the second time against a user too weak to properly cast it—saber vs berserker bad end guest staring Shirou the tribble). Otherwise, when invoked it works every time.
>>
>>101100229
>Implying she's capable of that much expression
>>
>>101100177
Old items don't magically gain random properties. They just gain basic properties of NPs so they can only be destroyed by other conceptual weapons. For example, a stick you picked up from the Age of the Gods probably wouldn't hurt anymore than a stick you pick up today, but nothing should be able to destroy it short of another NP.
>>
>>101100290
>works every time
I'm just saying the title is nothing more than a moniker; NPs of stronger concepts or properties will negate it.

ie. Ea/Avalon.
>>
>>101100348
The anon was talking about making an item/vehicle/whatever with a divine mystery as the ingredient.
>>
>>101099825
>>101099936
Ah, thank you very much. It's been bothering me for awhile.

So, can someone give me a dummy course on how Rho Aias, Archer's Seven Petal shield happens? I tried reading through the wiki, but in the end I'm left thinking that it shouldn't exist in the context of UBW simply because I think his Reality Marble only constructs tangible objects while the shield is described as magecraft.

Afterall, if UBW can "Make magic," I can't see any reason why he shouldn't be able to add magic to his repertoire and make himself a better Servant.
>>
You just summoned Aiwass as your servant in the holy grail war, what happens?
>>
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>>101099166
>I still think Kanata isn't as strong as you think she is
Except these are all things she's demonstrated in canon. If I were fanwanking, I'd say she could smash up a whole universe at billions times the speed of light, but I'm not.
>and is limited to the dreams in her story
Firstly, that wasn't part of the dream, that was a separate thing entirely, and secondly, it wasn't her dream, it was a precog's. You really shouldn't just repeat hearsay you've heard with nothing to justify it.
>especially considering she wasn't anywhere near top 3 in Nasu's power levels statement.
A ranking that was made before DDD vol 2 was released, and about three years before Sora no Soto was published. Plus there's the fact that Nasu powerlevels aren't linear in the first place, and there's an anomoly and hard-counter for everything.
>>
>>101100253
I guess it comes down to a question of whether the body is continuously "powered" by the core, or is only connected when it needs to use abilities/repair damage.
>>
>>101100517
I don't win because the Holy Grail isn't interesting enough to fight for.

She probably goes off to chat with ORT or something.
>>
>>101100519
>Except these are all things she's demonstrated in canon.
How canon is it to the Nasuverse though? It's disconnected from everything else Nasu has done so far and he hasn't commented on it otherwise.

>You really shouldn't just repeat hearsay you've heard with nothing to justify it.
That's why I said I think. Also precisely why I'm not inclined to believe you at all. I don't really believe either side at the moment since there are no translations.

>A ranking that was made before DDD vol 2 was released
And I will wait until a proper ranking before passing judgement. It doesn't sound as clear cut to me.
>>
>>101100517
He comments on anything I'm doing when he becomes visible
And I can't masturbate in peace
He also bullies the masters who own a personal loli
>>
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>>101099457
Kanata is Doomsday, but cuter.
Or possibly the Hulk, but less roidy.
Or possibly She-Hulk, but more crazy and less nympho.
>>
The real question is when will we get a good crossover 3D fighting game. Or just a Nasuverse one. Shit'd make millions. Get to it already CyberConnect2.
>>
>>101100431
It goes without saying. FSN isn't about powerlevels, after all. Otherwise, Gae Bolg >>>>> *
>>
>>101100519
>A ranking that was made before DDD vol 2 was released
http://netokaru.com/?page_id=10860
This is after vol 2 release and Nasu still said that Arc is strongest in Type Moon world.
>>
>>101100664
>How canon is it to the Nasuverse though? It's disconnected from everything else Nasu has done so far and he hasn't commented on it otherwise.
It's canon to DDD. The rest of the Nasuverse isn't even remotely relevent.
>That's why I said I think. Also precisely why I'm not inclined to believe you at all. I don't really believe either side at the moment since there are no translations.
Well I'm telling you right here I've read the source material. I'd give you direct quotes and even the dates mentioned in the dream and in SnS to show they are mutually exclusive, but the thread is going to die in a bit, so there's not much point. You can find my posts and translations on the matter in the archive if you care enough, it's not like there's that much DDD discussion on /a/ that it'd be hard to find.
>And I will wait until a proper ranking before passing judgement. It doesn't sound as clear cut to me.
Suit yourself. Just don't make claims if you don't have anything to support it yourself.
>>
>>101100969
>3D
Just go with 2D. Or new (future) GG style 3D as 2D. Give it to ASW. Instant buy.
>>
>>101101009
FSN is all about power levels actually. Its just a different type of power levels like Index.

>>101100519
>A ranking that was made before DDD vol 2 was released,
You sure?
>>
>>101101108
>The rest of the Nasuverse isn't even remotely relevent.
But you brought her up saying she's the strongest Nasuverse character when she might not even be in the setting.

>Well I'm telling you right here I've read the source material.
So does everyone talking about her feats, or lack thereof.

>Just don't make claims if you don't have anything to support it yourself.
I hope the irony isn't lost on you.
>>
>>101101056
That just looks like a discussion of the impact of TM works and similar products, I don't see anything to do with power. Even if that were the case and DDD were included, that really doesn't detract from Kanata's actual performance. If anything it suggests that Arc is just really powerful, or at least more powerful in different aspects
>>
>>101100969
>>101101136
The REAL problem there is that in order for that to happen, Nasu will need to write out a script and come up with reasons why everyone's showed up and fighting.
>>
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>>101100510
Long story short:
Ajax's shield with the flower being some Greek/Japanese co-related symbol (I forget how). Archer saw it either in his lifetime or during one of his summons. It's a Noble Phantasm that has far more value as a Conceptual Weapon (to not confuse you, just remember in this case, all Cognac is Brandy, but not all Brandys are Cognac) that repels all thrown objects.

The whole Gae Bolg vs Rho Aias can be summed as "Unstoppable force vs Unmovable Object".

Archer can trace it at greater cost because it's not something he identifies as a "Sword". THAT is important because things like axes and spears are also something he aligns and identifies as "sword".

Pic related. It's a "sword", therefore traceable.
>>
>>101101175
CC2 did a good job of making those ninja storm games fun to play though even though the series sucks ass. I'd trust them with a Nasuverse fighter.
>>
>>101101265
>But you brought her up saying she's the strongest Nasuverse character when she might not even be in the setting.
Technical issue, she's written by Nasu. She also appears in that new KnK novel, so she almost certainly is anyway.
>So does everyone talking about her feats, or lack thereof.
No they don't. People have just been parroting misinformation.
>I hope the irony isn't lost on you.
I really don't care that much. You said 'she's not as powerful as you think she is' based on some dream you heard about and that's simply wrong. I know that for a fact. Whether you believe me or not isn't really my problem. Believe what you want, but don't expect me to care.
>>
>>101101308
I never understood why the myth labelled this as a sword.

What the fuck.
>>
>>101101546
>Technical issue, she's written by Nasu.
And? Authors can write stories outside of their established universes. Don't make that leap, it makes you sound like a fanboy.

>No they don't.
And you're different how?

>I really don't care that much.
Then you wouldn't respond to my posts calling you out for a lack of citation. Either way, you managed to contribute nothing to the discussion about Kanata, or about as much as people in opposition to your opinion of her.

Maybe it will get translated someday so we can read it and not have to hear people like you spout bullshit.
>>
>>101095764
I can totally see this happen
>>
>>101101736
>And? Authors can write stories outside of their established universes. Don't make that leap, it makes you sound like a fanboy.
Did you miss the second part? She's in a KnK story.
>And you're different how?
Because I know what I'm talking about.
>Then you wouldn't respond to my posts calling you out for a lack of citation. Either way, you managed to contribute nothing to the discussion about Kanata, or about as much as people in opposition to your opinion of her.
Like I said, the thread is basically dead. Make a new thread about it and I'll give you some quotes and translations. Otherwise, fuck off and stop wasting my time.
>Maybe it will get translated someday so we can read it and not have to hear people like you spout bullshit.
Entitled little shits like you are part of the reason I dropped my translation effort. Maybe I'll try again one day, but it's not really worth it.
>>
>>101101056
>たとえばアルクェイドはTYPE-MOONの世界で最強だと言われているけれど、同時に志貴にベタボレなので彼のいうことには負けてしまう側面も持っている。その時点で男性の方が上位になるわけです
Even Arc lose to the power of the dick I see.
>>
>>101101308
Hey, I like Herpes -give me a lot of them!

Errr anyway. I'm a little slow on the uptake, so I still don't quite understand. Archer saw Ajax' shield when it was as a Noble Phantasm and it was added to his library of weaponry, but due to the fact he can't trace NPs, he downgraded it to a Conceptual Weapon. However, isn't UBWs all about acknowledging a lump of metal, understanding/augmenting the physical creation process, and making it?

Sorry, but I don't understand if it means that in the end, Archer can create objects with fantastical properties like an immovable object.
>>
>>101102066
>She's in a KnK story.
Well, unless we can get a translator verifying the details, it's hard to say.

>Because I know what I'm talking about.
ok

>Like I said, the thread is basically dead.
So? Post em here and I'll take a look at em. The thread doesn't have to be up for me to read through them right?

>Otherwise, fuck off and stop wasting my time.
I thought you didn't care? Calm down anon.

>Entitled
For asking you to give sources for your outrageous claims? You should be a politician!
>>
>>101102302
>Well, unless we can get a translator verifying the details, it's hard to say.
Thread on Beast's Lair. If you weren't so dependent on being spoonfed you'd already know this shit.
>So? Post em here and I'll take a look at em. The thread doesn't have to be up for me to read through them right?
Literally last thread on page 10. Make a thread or not, stop trying to rile me up just because you've nothing better to do.
>For asking you to give sources for your outrageous claims? You should be a politician!
Nothing outrageous about what meshes with everything stated by reliable sources thus far. Desperate, much?



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