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I'm so tired of people using the word "pretentious" to describe anime

Just because an anime has intellectual themes or tires to have a bit of subtext or depth, why is that a bad thing? Does it genuinely bother people?
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no idea man, but I see it with many other things too such as film but I personally think it's because they;
1. Don't want to expand their taste/mind
2. Don't/can't/won't(try to) understand it.
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I like it when depth is aactually what the name implyie, something you have to look into to be able to see.
Symbolism is best when left hidden, instead of shoving it all over your face.
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>>100978520
Jesus christ, typing a post from my phone is truly hell.
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>>100977486
This, although the word "pretentious" has gone to the dogs along with "hipster" and "literally".
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Because it fails badly to present them or just shoves the symbolism right in your face.

>subtext or depth
Which is nonexistent in the medium.
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I hate subtext and depth in my anime.
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>>100978662
There is a copypasta that goes into why Hipster and pretentious have no actual meaning and are a way to dismiss people and their taste. It's p aight
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>>100978688
>subtext or depth
>Which is nonexistent in the medium.

Ergo Proxy
Shinsekai Yori
Mushishi
Psycho-pass
Bokurano
Gankutsuou
Anohana

Just to name a few
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>>100978936
>Mushishi
>SSY
>PP

Might as well add madoka there buddy.
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>>100977486
Because, it's often used by anime that says "LOOK AT US, WE'RE INTELLECTUAL!" and a fanbase of "LOOK AT US, WE'RE INTELLECTUALS!", rather than a smart anime that doesn't have to state it or try extremely hard to be smart.
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>>100978987

You know what subtext is, right?
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>>100978688
Memories
Satoshi Kon's works
That's just a few of the many works that have depth.
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>>100978936

Eva is the biggest offender
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>>100977486
Any show that deviates from standard tropes is pretentious.
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>>100978987
actually you could add Madoka to the list. I suspect most of those people who constantly shut down anime for being pretentious haven't actually read very many books. The Great Gatsby, Animal Farm, and Heart of Darkness are all considered classics yet they smack you in the face so hard with their symbolism and morality it makes Fist of the North Star look morally ambiguous. Psycho-Pass is genuinely tryhard with it's constant namedropping though
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>>100979005
Psycho-Pass being a prime offender of this sort of namedropping for the sake of looking "deep". Really though, I don't know how you could claim there are no genuinely deep if you are familiar with the works of Satoshi Kon, Ryutaro Nakamura, or Ikahura. If you aren't familiar with at least those, you shouldn't be here
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One way I use to figure out what shows to pick up is to see whether people are calling it pretentious
It's usually a good sign since people are using it as a synonym for "ambitious" now
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People who don't like a theme shoved down their throat tend to call some anime pretentious.

If the message is essentially, "hurr durr listen to my philosophy! Muh ideals!" then it IS pretentious. There's nothing "intellectual" about being spoonfed a message you should have noticed on your own.
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>>100979794
Is Lord of the Flies pretentious?
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>>100978987
Psycho Pass was great when it came to having a little philosophy in it for me. I just finished watching it today. I saw so many threads with people saying it was pretentious but the themes were very simple and so was the villain so it didn't feel like all the scenes where literature is mentioned were loldeep.

I read the Monster manga ages ago and think Johan is far more loldeep villain as we're constantly told he's an amazing super charismatic genius yet when we rarely see him do much of anything to show this.

We see a guy in prison kill himself when Tenma tries to get him to tell him about Johan but we don't know what he said to program him.

We see people say he could lead a 4th Reich or be the antichrist but all he fucking does is walk around with a small smile and act indifferent to everything.

Psycho Pass was super fucking simple. Machines are making people increasingly antisocial and superficial and are causing or increasing problems as they reduce others. Choice can paralyze people and make them suffer great anxiety but not having it can suck the satisfaction out of their lives. Technology brings people together but it also isolates them and makes them take relationships for granted. Like having a million "friends" on Facebook and people insisting that's great when they might be better off with just a few really good ones and when they still feel they have no one they can seriously talk to.

Really simple shit.
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>>100980066
I suspect if they told you exactly what Johan said and did to others, he would be far less unerving, especially considering the depraved shit most /a/nons have been exposed to. It's called using your imagination, which is the exact opposite of edgy loldeep shit.
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>>100980240
Not necessarily. For me it was simply less is less, not less is more. The series felt like it went on way too long and the big reveal wasn't anything special and neither was what happened after it. People say he's some super amazing villain but he's just someone who's been traumatized by horrible experiments that wants to kill everyone linked to them including himself so they can never be recreated again.

Killing innocent people who don't even know that they've stumbled upon something they shouldn't have doesn't make him crazy evil or unique. Neither does fucking with a kid. People forget the reporter/Steiner guy couldn't feel emotions properly which is why his wife left him and if he's a failing test subject Johan could logically be even more fucked up as a successful one.

He would have been far more interesting/compelling to me if he actually did try to create a 4th reich or use his vast intellect for something other than tracking down and killing some people before offing himself.

Instead we're told he's really smart and charismatic with little if any dialog demonstrating either trait.
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>No one is naming Paranoia Agent or Tatami Galaxy
I assume you haven't seen them.
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>>100980066
>it didn't feel like all the scenes where literature is mentioned were loldeep.

This bugged people a lot, and I can see why, because it's an easy thing to hate. But when it comes down to it, reading was sort of a shared interest between two of the characters and it kind of brought them together, so all the real-world-writer name-dropping didn't bother me. Not to mention when it came to Shogo's obsession with reading, it suited his character, being an idealist who yearns for a different age. It makes sense that he takes comfort in reading old books.

Psycho-pass was simple in a lot of ways but it also had some complexity.
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>>100981087
The only people who call PA pretentious are the ones who have never actually watched the show or stopped halfway through. They practically hold your fucking hand and tell you the key themes of the series. Hell, episode 11 spends 20 minutes SCREAMING it at you if you didn't catch on as to why Lil Slugger's attacks have become increasingly more violent.
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Cause its a cartoon and taking cartoons seriously isn't in the culture so when its done its taken as being a special case.
Stuff I've read and watched over the years(not just anime) always has certain emotional overtones and references that don't make sense unless you have had personal experiences with people. It just seems strange and out of place or stupid for the character to do something when you don't understand where the author is going with their shit.
Which is why Eva gets shit on so much, because the whole series you have this buildup of this kid feeling passive in his world and they just end it in artsy fartsyness.
Tv shows is general have different rules for their stories and how they tell them than books. You can't honestly compare Breaking Bad to anime either, theres a whole culture/demographic barrier going on.
So, honestly, whatever the fuck you think about the 2deep4me shit is fine because the point of it is to lend M Y S T E R Y to a medium,
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>>100981666
I meant pretentious in the sense of the word.
Both of those anime are really exaggerated in the way they show stuff, but in the same time don't tell much at all.
Episode 11 isn't realy the one that explains everything though. I figured Lil Slugger on episode 10, where you can see that Paranoia and pressure are the basis of it.
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>>100980860
So basically you were looking for it to be over the top (making a 4th reich) or something along the lines of Death Note?
Johan succeeded as a villain to me because he was a realistic one. Revenge is a plausible motive, especially in real life murderers, and the rest of what he did made him unique in the context of the medium he is presented in.
When you consider most manga/anime murderers you generally get a one sided form of either pure evil or so unbelievably CrAzY that you slide away from any pretense of realism.
The only other murderer character that has depth close to Johan, in my opinion, is from Tezuka's own MW -- and even then. MW tells a weaker story.

I can understand why you wouldn't like Monster, though, if you expected it to be more of an action series that tells you all the exposition. But it was always intended to make you, the reader, imagine and use your mind alongside the characters.
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>>100977486

I never really find anime pretentious.

I think my main problem is I don't tend to look into anime/video games/movies to see them for what they truely are, and all the glaring problems they have.

For example, I loved playing Bioshock Infinite. It was the only retail game I bought during 2013. It was at least decent fun to experience. It wasn't until about 3-4 weeks after that I went onto 4chan, watched videos dictating all the issues with it, that I figured out it was crap (They severly limited in terms of gameplay compared to other Bioshock games, the Alternate Dimensions at the end didn't make any sense, broken promises, etc.).

Same with Guilty Crown or Future Diary or Blue Exorcist. I enjoyed watching all those shows, but apparently they all had glaring problems that I didn't notice because I was too busy just enjoying them at face value (Hell, I didn't even know that BE's ending was anime original until a while after I watched it, thanks to 4chan again.)

I feel like I should look out for these things while Im watching/playing them (I wrote down some problems, questions I had when I was watching Attack on Titan), but I don't do it enough. Maybe 'cause if I do, I won't have fun with it like I want since I'll be too busy criticising it.
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To be honest the most pretentious series I've watched in recent years is the Bakemonogatari series. No, I'm not trolling, I just have a distaste for how Nisio Isin writes and presents his characters.
The dialogue especially makes me cringe with how it's always focused on making a clever play on how it's harem, and how the viewer is clever for understanding the reference, and then juxtapositioning it with fanservice to create a contrast between what's literally being said with the imagery shown... When, all things considered, it's only a simple harem anyway, I just don't see the need to dress it up as smarter.
But I'm sure it's an unpopular opinion here on /a/.
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>>100982822
You are just new to everything, and should lurk more tripfag.
The more you know about something, the less you enjoy it.
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The problem is when it feels like it's trying but falling flat on its face, like, say, Ergo Proxy.
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>>100982822
You can still be capable of enjoying a series while criticizing it. You'll experience worse burn out if you just watch crap all the time without trying to distinguish what the series excels in versus what it doesn't.
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>>100982941

I do lurk more though. I just try to enjoy things without outright hating things while Im watchng it.

Sorry for the trip though. I forgot to take it off.
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>>100978987
Madoka is full of symbolism though
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Pretentiousness, for me, is presenting a philosophy or interesting intellectual idea without any build up or evidence. 'Serious' fiction is a lot like arguing: you make a point, and you back up your point using facts (or in this case, characters, ideas, plot lines and so on.)

For example: a Shakespeare play uses the conflicts of the story, the characters and their motivations, and the language to state the theme(s) of the work, and done in such a way that, in their context, it's difficult to argue that to be or not to be isn't the question.

By contrast, when someone in an anime says something 'deep' it's usually done without proper build up or detail of thought. It's the difference between a teenager trying to sound smart, and a smart mother fucker making a deliberate point.
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>>100983786
I get what you're saying, but that's not what the word pretentious means. Literally, to be pretentious is to put on a pretense, pretend to know more than you actually do, or to inflate the importance of something trivial to make it seem more deep than it is. many anime/manga series are bad at introducing ideas, or don't spend enough time developing them, or simply misrepresent the ideas, but very few series explicitly market themselves based on how "deep" they are. Psycho-Pass and Elfen Lied are a couple examples of genuinely pretentious anime that come to mind, though I genuinely enjoyed Psycho-Pass taking it at face value.
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>>100978662

Along with "trying hard", which is not even a thing, honestly. Unless someone can explain it full on detail.
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>>100985815
Trying hard is something real, but it's more immediately noticeable in 3d works. Like namedropping a ton of people famous in a field without being able to attribute substance to their quotations. I could say, for example, that by Freud and Jung and Buber you're gay as hell, but there's no substance to that statement. There's only perceived depth because of the allusion being made.
In anime it's harder to tell when something is trying hard, but reusing keyframes from classics beyond the scope of only reference is a little try hard in my opinion. Especially when it's used for something in earnest, like Ashita no Joe's famous scene being used for Kamina's death.
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>>100985815

"Trying too hard" or being a "try hard" can be more accurately described as desperately trying to make yourself or something appear as something it is not. The idea is that you are trying to change the perception or appearance of something, but not the actual content.

For instance, someone who starts dressing in gang clothes and talking in heavy slang even though he is a straight laced kid who lives in a suburb. It's a bit harder to apply to a show on it's own, maybe someone has a good example.
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>>100986717
I hate to bring up Bakemonogatari, but I think it's a prime example. It has the dialogue and appearance of a metacomedy about the harem genre, but in the end it's also just a harem. Same with World God Only Knows which does the same thing; gives lots of commentary on harem cliches, "differentiates" itself from others in the genre by saying it's smarter and above the use of cliches, but still utilizes them to an end and is a harem.
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>>100987058
>I hate to bring up Bakemonogatari, but I think it's a prime example.
Not the anon you're talking to and I haven't read the LNs, but if we're talking about the anime I feel like Shinbo's directing might be a contributing factor -- his style just comes off as slightly obnoxious and little more than a novelty to me (I feel that it worked better for Madoka, perhaps).
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>>100987635
Well, I have the same impression from all of Nisio Isin's works I've tried, so it's not like I haven't given him a chance.. Like Zaregoto and Medaka Box.
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didnt know where to put this, but this is madoka magica related and the other threads are too erotic.
http://www.plot-generator.org.uk/yfhk/madoka-vampire-slayer.html
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>>100978987
You might as well, because all four of those are thought-provoking works without their quality being dependent on the themes or implicit messages.
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>>100979903
The truth is is that all lot of people are close-minded and think that it's easy to judge everything with analogies and buzzwords.
You bring up Lord of the Flies--remember the ending? Deus ex motherfucking Machina.
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>>100977486
Don't tell me you think Ergo Proxy isn't pretentious. They have a fucking glossary of pretentious terms that they use at the end of each episode even though they have at best tangential relevance to the plot.
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>>100977486
i see it like this. You know how sometimes you'll be explaining why someone is wrong and they'll start calling you a show-off? People don't like not understanding things, and they like it even less when other people do understand those things.
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>>100988764
But there are genuinely pretentious works, and there are genuinely pretentious people.I can see your point when the term is inappropriately used, however, there are times when it is accurate.
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Most people mistake the word "pretentious" with "tryhard." Pretentious means that you act like you have knowledge of a subject when in fact, you do not. Tryhard means that its clear that you are trying to be deep rather than presenting your show as something that is genuinely deep. All in all. If you want to discuss a deep series, do it when all the kiddies/Europeans go to bed late at night. Otherwise you're just in for disappointment when it comes to /a/'s capacity for things that mentally challenge them.
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Is my favourite show pretentious?

It's a good show I promise.
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>>100984288
Glad to hear a sensible comment. Too many people will dismiss something as pretentious, and end up missing out on something entertaining.
Hotel was a recent manga I read that pulled that cop-out of trying to convey something, but being too afraid to go all the way and just acting cynical.
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I don't call pretentious.

I call faggots pretentious for thinking they're smarter than others for liking something.
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>>100989411
shows*



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