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Drown in your ideals and die
>>
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>>100832741
Sorry Sakuya, but I rewrote that song.
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>>100832741
Okay.
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>>100832741
Terrible translation. Should be "Then drown while holding on to those ideals, Shirou."

The ideals are the weight, not the water.
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>>100832905
>>
>>100832982
The "terrible" one sounds cooler and is a more unique usage of language. With yours, there's no point in even using "drown". You could just replace it with "die" or any other synonym.
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>>100832741
They gave him an ideal that wasn't his own, it just was gratitude towards the man that saved him, towards the man that was grateful for his life, yet he still believed in that fake ideal and pursued it at cost of his own life. He loved everyone, he protected everyone, gave them everything yet they betrayed him, they killed him, they killed that fake ideal and left him in despair. He suffered so much that he wished to be able to kill himself when he chose that burden.

It's the story of every human being, love with all your heart and still be betrayed.

For this is why UBW is the best of the three paths.
>>
>>100833134
This. A more literal translation isn't always your best option.
>>
>>100832741
Archer's just jelly Shirou managed to have a threeway with Seiba and Rin while BAHSAKA was ripping him a new asshole.
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>>100833382
He should have seen that coming.

Alternatively, when Archer was doing it he managed a four way with Saber, Rin and Ilya, and obviously he doesn't believe Shirou will ever be capable of that.
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>>100832741
No. No. I will drink my own ideals and become even stronger! Strong like the drunken oxen!
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>>100833452
Archer's might be the pure though.
I doubt he managed to tap anyone's ass in his route, maybe Issei
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>>100833452
Is Archer acquinted with Sakura and Rider?
Can't it be sixsome?
>>
>>100833514
Nah, according to Nasu he was close to Ilya in his timeline. I'm choosing to interpret that as
>Ilya Route
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>>100833686
1 year of loli homonculus sex, yay!
Illya's body breaking after a year is canon, no?
>>
>>100833929
Yep. And that's why Archer becomes so driven to save people, because he couldn't save Ilya.

Why they didn't just move her into a puppet body like they did with Shirou in Heaven's Feel I don't know.
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>>100832741
Makes me all hot and bothered.
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>>100833514
He had a lover according to Extra.

>>100834022
Something something souls something something third magic needed to keep from dying.
>>
>>100833686
I could see an Ilya route stemming off from UBW--if Archer got his memories back, I doubt he'd be too keen on letting Gil rip her heart out.
Also because that is the most bullshit scene I've ever witnessed and Ilya deserves to live.
>>
>>100832741
No, I will swim in my ideal or drown trying.
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The red man is best man
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>>100832741
Don't think so Archer.
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>>100832741
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>>100834147
I think an Ilya route would probably be based off of Fate, mainly the scenes where you met and interacted with Ilya. Maybe Shirou took her home and they got closer in that universe, rather than Ilya kidnapping him?
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>>100834409
Each one of the three routes should branch off into an Ilya route, just to prove how best she is.
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Archer is the worst Emiya
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I don't have ideal though
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>>100834534
Ahem. Kiritsugu would like a word with you. As would Shirou's stupider ideals.
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>>100834565
Kiritsugu is a good guy who happens to have a really bad compulsion that ruins his life.

Archer is a smarmy piece of shit.
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>>100834620
archer is a cutie
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>>100834620
And Shirou? Presumably he gets a pass because his sexism is well intentioned?
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>>100834652
When he's not talking, yeah.
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>>100834662
Traditional! not sexist!
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>>100834670
Bitterness is a moe point!
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>>100834662
I'm sure if somebody were to actually tell Shirou to shut the fuck up when he starts getting stressed about girls doing things he'd listen, but unfortunately nobody does.

He's really quite alright other than that.
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>>100834699
Stupid, not traditonal.

She has a sword shirou. You don't even know you're made out of swords so the hell are you doing jumping into berserker's embrace.
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>>100834735
He just wants Hercules to give him a hug,
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>>100834620
Kiritsugu ruined Shirou's life. To call Kiritsugu a good guy is completely delusional, everything he touched was made worse.

He had a childish dream that was worth protecting, but that never justified all the killing.
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>>100834735
He's not stupid, he's just broken! he doesn't have any self preservation instincts! because he wants to sacrifice himself for the greater good of the people around him.

makes you wanna pat him on the head and take care of him after he gets all beaten up!
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>>100834798
>>100834652

Post more
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>>100834775
Was he supposed to magically know that even mentioning being a seigi no mikata would turn Shirou into the utter lunatic he turned out to be? Better he turns out a little bizarre than an orphan battery. Kerrytugu's main fault with raising Shirou was disappearing all the time, you can't do that to a little kid.
>>
>>100834662
You can't call Shirou sexist when he's the most feminine character in the fucking setting, barring Sakura.

If he was a girl, he'd be the fucking Yamato Nadeshiko housewife character. His issues with Saber stem from his insecurity and frustration, which he admits multiple times is complete bull.
>>
>>100834848
At that point it was already too late.

Plus, it's Kiritsugu's origin to fuck everything up around him, he can't exactly help it.

Also, he cheated on Irisviel with Maiya with the excuse that he was punishing himself because he was going to have to let her die. Anybody who does shit like that is not a decent person.
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>>100834817
sure ok
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>>100834864
Just because he admits it, doesn't make it a more reasonable objection on his part.

It's Nasu's fault. Apparently he had to write Shirou that way for some stupid reason?
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>>100834864
Most of Shirou's whining about Saber fighting ends the moment he can fight as well.
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>>100834930
>>100834848
I dont like shiroupapa much. He's kinda a meanie.
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>>100834817
do you want shiro or aacha
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>>100832905
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsWMjLWP5eE
Obligatory
>>
>>100834930
>Also, he cheated on Irisviel with Maiya with the excuse that he was punishing himself because he was going to have to let her die.

The reason he cheated was because he considered it a sort of "practice" in betraying her. To participate in the Grail War is to kill Iri with his own hands, the way he sees it, and so cheating on her was his way of steeling himself against that reality/self-punishing. He's wrong as fuck for that, no ways about it, but I still don't know that he's a bad person as much as he is a really sick one.
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>>100835003
wanna kiss him better
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>>100835022
KIIIING KIIING KIIINGU GAINER!!
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>>100835055
das lood
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>>100834930
No, not 'punishment'. He was betraying Iris early so that he would be prepared when the time came for the ultimate betrayal of his love--killing her.
Not to say that's somehow better. But it's how he reasoned it.
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>>100834848
No, Kiritsugu was supposed to completely lose his faith in in his ideals after Zero. And yet not only Kiritsugu still believes in them, he does not tell Shirou anything about the consequences of following his ideals. And that's just fucked up.

And besides, how is it possible to like Kiritsugu but dislike Archer? Archer is much more skilled, and he managed to preserve his ideals despite going through much worse shit in his life then Kiritsugu.
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>>100835033
Doesn't matter had Maiya. Though, I though she's doing her even before she married Irisviel.
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>>100835158
Archer is an amazing impossibility.

Would my ideals last that long in the face of the world? Nope, I had to adapt them.
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Kotomine > all Emiyas
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>>100835167
>>100835167
>Though, I though she's doing her even before she married Irisviel.
Shit, I meant: Though, I thought he's doing her even before he married Irisviel.
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>>100835214
Ilya > All Kotomines except maybe that one eating mapu tofu.
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>>100832741
I olev Archer.
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>>100835158
>And yet not only Kiritsugu still believes in them, he does not tell Shirou anything about the consequences of following his ideals.

Again, is he supposed to magically know that Shirou would end up in a Holy Grail War where being a seigi no mikata is generally a terrible idea? Even for a Type-Moon thread this is such a stupid reason to get on a character's case, holy fuck.

>Archer is much more skilled,
Why would Archer being skilled have anything to do with why I like or dislike him?

His personality is insufferable, his soliloquies about his ideals are as dry as it gets, and his narrative reprimand is nonexistent on top of it all. At least the prose leaves no illusions about it when Kiritsugu is being a right asshole, but Archer is always presented as the ever so noble and broken savior. It's gag-worthy.
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>>100835240
I disagree, but I respect your opinion because Ilya is wonderful.
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>>100832741
Already did the first part.
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>>100835265
me too
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>>100835336
>His personality is insufferable,
He's depressed as fuck, hates everything he is while at the same time still wants to continue with it, causing him to hate himself even more. Of course he's insufferable.

>his soliloquies about his ideals are as dry as it gets
Yeah. Because this is the guy who never once managed to explain why he did anything to anyone and alienated everyone around him. He has no charisma and he's no silver tongue.

Shirou is Archer's narrative reprimand. Archer is wrong as fuck, so blade the fucker in the chest!

Though, Archer kind of is Wizard Jesus, with how he died accepting the judgement of those he'd saved.
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magical family!!!
>>
>>
>>100833663
I don't remember him ever interacting with them.
Besides trying to kill them
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>>100835554
>He's depressed as fuck, hates everything he is while at the same time still wants to continue with it, causing him to hate himself even more.
And what, do I have to like him for it? Fuck no, I don't care that he became perma-Superman and ended up hating his job, he's an asshole and it's not cute.
>>
>>100835750
FEMANON ALERT
FEMANON ALERT
>>
>>100835750
No, you don't have to like him, you have to understand that he's not acting like who he truly is.

He's Shirou, despite everything and all his protests, at his core he's still the same.

And he's not superman.
>>
>>100835336
>Again, is he supposed to magically know that Shirou would end up in a Holy Grail War where being a seigi no mikata is generally a terrible idea? Even for a Type-Moon thread this is such a stupid reason to get on a character's case, holy fuck.
Yes, he is supposed to know. He installed Avalon in Shirou, Avalon is a catalyst, he knew that Grail wars start again when the core finished recharging mana, Kiritsugu had Eisenberng help in getting information, etc.

But I am talking about mere suggesting that Shirou should not completely devout himself to his ideals and value himself too. He probably knew that Shirou was broken inside. As an example, such speech was in Seirei no moribito, when Balsa was listening to her dying teacher.

>His personality is insufferable
He's a bitter asshole but he is nowhere near Kiritsugu.
>his soliloquies about his ideals are as dry as it gets
That's perfectly natural, as he supposedly lost his faith in his ideals. Besides, he is only telling the truth.

>his narrative reprimand is nonexistent on top of it all
Why should it exist in the first place?
> At least the prose leaves no illusions about it when Kiritsugu is being a right asshole, but Archer is always presented as the ever so noble and broken savior. It's gag-worthy.
Because he is a saviour, it's just that he was forced to save people by killing a minority.
Its no something he had to choose, unlike Kiritsugu.
And Kiritsugu was never the "right asshole" because killed people to get the Grail, and the Grail was fake. Thus all his sacrifices were meaningless to him and that's what broke him.
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>>100835750
But depression is cute.
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>>100835891
That smile at the end is one of those 'so rare that they're worth their weight in gold' smiles imho.
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>>100835847
You're aware that Grail Wars typically happen every 60 years and not 10, right? Kerry isn't psychic, he had no reason to believe Shirou was ever going to take part in a Grail War.

>But I am talking about mere suggesting that Shirou should not completely devout himself to his ideals and value himself too. He probably knew that Shirou was broken inside

Are you fucking kidding me with this? Are you actually fucking kidding me? Trauma manifests in countless ways, Kiritsugu cannot reasonably arrive at the conclusion that Shirou is going to take one particular facet of his father's personality, blow it up to unreasonable proportions, and end up endangering his life because of that.

This is why Archer's fans are positively rotten: you'll go to absurd lengths to point fingers at everyone who can even be remotely perceived as having done wrong by your nasty-mannered little hero, or by extension, Shirou. The lack of self-awareness here is just stunning to me; it's never just an unfortunate circumstance that leads to Shirou's upbringing and eventual transformation into Archer, no, it has to be Kiritsugu's fault because he couldn't pinpoint with godlike accuracy how his son's trauma would manifest and eventually lead to his becoming a Counter Guardian. My fucking god.

I'm not even going to read the rest of your post, you're completely out of your mind.
>>
>>100836241
>This is why Archer's fans are positively rotten:
Why are you lumping all of them with one dude?

Fuck off.
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>>100836241
I openly admit that Shirou becoming Archer was not Kiritsugu's fault at all.
I just wanted to show that this was one of Kiritsugu's the bad moves. Maybe it was just a mistake.
>>
>>100836241
>>100836422
And besides, why Kiritsugu had no reason to believe Shirou was ever going to take part in a Grail War? 60 years is maximum time between wars, they can happen much more often if the grail is not used.
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>>100836620
No, it was always precisely 60 years before.
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What was it that he considered beautiful and noble?
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>>100836706
The idea of a world where no one would cry.
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>>100836706
Issei.
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>>100836338
Because this behavior of excusing every little thing about Archer himself and going off the rails blaming any other character in sight for any perceived wrongdoing against Archer isn't exclusive this one guy, it's something that I've continually observed throughout Archer's vocal fanbase in the last some years. Nothing is ever wrong with Archer, no, and nothing that happened to him could ever happen to be a blameless but sad incident, perish the fucking thought. It's always somebody else's fault while Archer remains a beacon of heroism and snark shining flawlessly among F/SN's cast.

I don't think I've ever seen people discuss him as though he were a character and not a walking ideal. I've yet to see any self-described fan of his actually speak of him as though he's meant to call to mind a human being, not a shimmering image of loveliness that can do no wrong.

>>100836422
And that is fine, I understand. I've always liked to say that Kiritsugu's real problem wasn't his dream, but his rejection of the fundamental nature of justice. Justice is custodian; it can only take place where a wrongdoing has occurred, and Kiritsugu was someone who operated on preventative measures. It never could have worked, and not because he's childish or wrong for wanting a peaceful world, but because he simply couldn't accept a life of cleaning up tragedy's mess.

In fact, Kiritsugu's ways are what makes Archer--and the Emiya legacy in general--what it is. Their stories serve to tell us that justice simply cannot be enacted ahead of time, it will always come after the bitter fact.
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>>100835336
>His personality is insufferable
He's just a tsundere you moron.
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>>100836911
Lots of people don't like those.
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>>100834747
Just look at those arms.

He'd obviously be one of the best around.
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>>100836706
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>>100836846
You're just projecting your own annoyance and only noting what you dislike. Yes, there are idiots who only like Archer because he's such a GAR heroic figure, but that's not all.

And Archer does plenty wrong, that's what his route was all fucking about, him living up to his fuck ups.
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>>100836846
wat.

I specifically like him because he's broken, and jaded, and worn down. Things like that are precious to me. It makes me want to comfort and put the pieces back together.

Where the hell are you getting this from?
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>>100834147
Wait. I was under the impression that he never lost his memories in the first place. Didn't he just started lying his ass off the moment he met Tohsaka?
>>
>>100836846
>Nothing is ever wrong with Archer, no, and nothing that happened to him could ever happen to be a blameless but sad incident, perish the fucking thought. It's always somebody else's fault while Archer remains a beacon of heroism and snark shining flawlessly among F/SN's cast.
Couldn't be further from the truth.

Almost every fuck up in Archer's life is his own fault, but that's what he chose and continued to go on with. He is a walking ideal, because that addiction was all that he ever had.
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>>100837112
trauma is moe tho
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>>100837112
There's nothing wrong with finding those traits endearing or precious. What's irksome is the mentality that he should be defended because of his flaws rather than despite his flaws. There's a world of difference between these two viewpoints.
>>
>I don't think I've ever seen people discuss him as though he were a character and not a walking ideal. I've yet to see any self-described fan of his actually speak of him as though he's meant to call to mind a human being, not a shimmering image of loveliness that can do no wrong.

It's hard to do so when we know nothing of his life, and the rest of the time he existed he probably had no free will at all.


>Their stories serve to tell us that justice simply cannot be enacted ahead of time, it will always come after the bitter fact.
But there are always some preventative measures to stop people from committing crimes. Aren't they part of being hero of justice? Isn't the whole punishing system supposed to prevent other people from committing crimes in advance?
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>>100837166
He's lost a lot of his memories, though important events like meeting Saber remain.
>>
Who is this rude person!?! Please do not bully archer!!
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>>100837166
That's correct, he was just lying out his ass to cover his identity.
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>>100837263
>not bullying a white haired exmoralfag nigger

Mate, those things are made for bullying.
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>>100837231
You can prevent crime or wrongdoings to a point, but the nature of enacting justice is such that you're restoring right to a situation that was wrong. So in a way, you can't really call a preventative measure against crime an act of justice, but rather something else altogether. Justice can only exist where a violation has taken place, just as you can only wipe up a cup of water that's already been spilled.
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>>100837263
I want to bully archer sexually
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>>100837332
but thats simply your opinion
1. The quality of being just; fairness.
2.
>a. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3.
>a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
b. Law The administration and procedure of law.
4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason:

if your going by the dictionary definition that all acts of moral rightness are in itself justice.
whether the act of moral rightness is stopping crime before it happens or enacting justice after the event, both are components of justice.
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What are you gonna do?
>WHAT
Fight me?
>WHAT
Think you'd beat me?
>WHAT
You think you're special?
>WHAT
Is it cause of those clothes?
>WHAT
That stupid coat?
>WHAT
That red and black?
>WHAT
Why?
>WHAT
I WANNA KNOW WHY?
>WHAT
>>
>>100837332
Okay.
Then why was Kiritugu's "rejection of the fundamental nature of justice" a problem? He just wanted to save people like many others, and made mistakes as he went along, like any other human (and Archer). And participating in 4th war was what eventually made lose his faith in ideals, in my opinion.
>>
>>100837436
I'll never understand the dictionary approach, it's always struck me as so bizarre. If you were to look up "tomato" in the dictionary, you'd surely accept that the definition listed isn't going to tell you everything there possibly is to know or theorize about tomatoes, so why treat it as absolute in a context where the topic is even more abstract and debated than tomatoes? What on earth is the use of consulting the dictionary for this discussion?
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>>100837269
>>100837232
Pick one, pls.
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>>100837563
I thought that they kept memories of their life but lost memories of each time they're summoned, or something
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>>100837557
because dictionarys are the standard.
Your trying to define something as abstract as justice.
If you dont want this topic to devolve into a mess of
>muh opinions
than the usage of a standard such as the dictionary is the best choice.
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>>100837466
A sword to the head ought to make him shut up
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>>100837557
archer is red
tomatoes are red

According to hempel's raven, this makes archer a tomato. Or all tomatoes archer.
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>>100837691
Archer doesn't remember his summonings, but he gets after action reports of the shit he's done.

If he didn't know what he did as a CG, why would he despair, and all that.

Though normal Heroic Spirits don't have any of that, because they're perfect as is and they shouldn't be tarnished.
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>>100837563
he kept all his memories.
everyone who says otherwise is a troll
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>>100837741
shiro is red too, shiro is also tomato
>>
>>100837550
>Then why was Kiritugu's "rejection of the fundamental nature of justice" a problem?

Because it resulted in him killing not only those he cherished, but other persons who didn't need to die. It resulted in him becoming someone so obsessed with the notion of prevention that he'd repeatedly cheat on his wife to steel himself against having to later betray her. It turned him into a man so completely entrenched in his own guilt and self-blame for what happened that day on Arimago island that he couldn't even deny it when Iri said he'd surely kill himself if he were to run away from the War now and try to live out a happy life with his family.

He did want to save people, he made mistakes, you're right. He was earnest in his wish for peace, I don't doubt that for a second, nor would I ever hold that dream against him. But Kiritsugu's obsession with trying to enact justice where wrongdoings often hadn't even occurred yet completely ruined his life. It ultimately killed him.
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>>100837802
avenger is red too! So that makes three tomatoes!

You could make caprise with that many tomatoes!
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>>100832741
Good thing Shirou abandoned his ideals and lived happily ever after.
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>>100837851
Those dark spots on Avenger make me think he might be a bit rotten. Maybe we should leave him out.
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>>100837890
so happy! they can cook together!
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>>100837754
I think his memories were fuzzy when Seiba slashed him. It most likely return during battle with Herc.

If he managed to put team Illya down, he'll most likely go on his kill Shirou quest at that time. No command seal to stop him and a weakened Seiba is a perfect setup to murder the idiot.
>>
>>100837708
How is this a matter of opinion? Shirou can't attempt to rescue somebody from a danger that hasn't actually made itself known yet. Shirou's idea of justice (and Kerry's, and Archer's) had to do with saving people; you can't save somebody until they're somehow in danger. This is common sense, not >muh opinions.
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>>100837890
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>>100837903
No avenger in the caprise? That's no good.
What about kuro? She's red too!
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>>100837910
Archer would never harm Ilya, though.
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>>100837741
Some tomatoes are green.
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>>100837691
That's a Heroic Spirit. Archer is a Counter Guardian, which is something different (and not something the Grail was ever intended to summon, thanks Angry Manjew).

Heroic Spirits are summoned as a blank slate each time because you're not so much summoning the spirit itself as you are a photocopy of the spirit via the Throne of Heroes, which is why they don't retain memories of each summoning. Counter Guardians get to retain knowledge of the shit they do, because they actually DO stuff unlike Spirits who just bum around in the Throne doing god-knows-what forever.

Saber is also special because she's actually a living human being allowed to mimic a Spirit in order to participate in the War.
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>>100837941
Uh, well I guess some cherry tomatoes are okay.
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>>100837982
But green tomatoes dont go in caprise! They're good fried though!
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This part
;_;
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>>100837985
Heroic Spirits can be summoned though. Mostly they might just give some advice to someone, rather than a full appearance or possibly a possession even. Though those memories don't affect the Throne of Heroes version.
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>>100837934
MoS Shirou has rejected his ideals too. Instead of saving everyone, he has no compunctions about murdering a some innocents to save the many. There's no way for Shirou to uphold his ideals in HF (since people had been telling Shirou that he would eventually end up in a situation where his ideals were impossible to uphold in the first 2 routes, it nice to see that happen).
>>
>>100837910
Whatever world Archer came from was different from any of the routes in the game. He didn't know exactly what was going on because he wasn't sure how that world was different from his world at that point. Of course we don't know exactly HOW his world was different so any number of things could have been confusing him early on.
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>>100838017
>you'll never have SHIROU Kotomine, Kirei Kotomine and Shriou Kotomine in the same room.
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>>100838017
Could Deermud-san's mention of the frying pan of hell possibly be much more tomato-relevant than we'd previously realized? He is a green, after all.
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>>100837933
>you can't save somebody until they're somehow in danger
yet you can prevent them from getting hurt in the first place.
are you not even properly following the discussion or something?
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So ladies and ladyboys, when did you all realize you were in love with Archer? I pretty much read Fate/Stay Night because of him.
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>>100838079
Exactly. The spirit itself never leaves the Throne or has any knowledge of what happens outside it. You're just summoning a perfect copy that gets deleted whenever the summoning ends. The Throne is the data, the summoning is a magical 3d printer.
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>>100837849
>Because it resulted in him killing not only those he cherished, but other persons who didn't need to die. It resulted in him becoming someone so obsessed with the notion of prevention that he'd repeatedly cheat on his wife to steel himself against having to later betray her. It turned him into a man so completely entrenched in his own guilt and self-blame for what happened that day on Arimago island that he couldn't even deny it when Iri said he'd surely kill himself if he were to run away from the War now and try to live out a happy life with his family.

So you are saying that these actions were a part of his concept of justice? Especially killing unrelated people? Then where does his guilt come from? Why is this part of his justice concept and not his mistakes.

>But Kiritsugu's obsession with trying to enact justice where wrongdoings often hadn't even occurred yet completely ruined his life. It ultimately killed him.
The thing is that after he rescued Shirou he somehow (and it's hard to believe) regained his faith in justice and died pretty much a happy man. So why his ideals were his downfall and not just his mistakes?
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>>100838153
Took me my first playthrough of Extra to realize how much I enjoyed listening to him.
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>>100838124
Oh no

>>100838113
It would be fun to watch! Kotomeanie.
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>>100838150
You can prevent them from getting hurt in the first place, but that's not quite "saving" them, which was my original point. You haven't rescued someone from a house fire by removing fire hazards around their house, you prevented a possible accident ahead of time. Are you following the discussion?

Preventative measures against crime are not justice, there is only justice where a wrongdoing has occurred. Shirou can only save those who are in danger. You can only rescue somebody from a house fire in the event that their house was on fire and they needed rescuing. Holy shit, anon.
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>>100838200
Wouldn't you say that pursuing an impossible objective is a mistake in itself?

Not to mention I don't see how his goal of achieving world peace through the Grail could work without either turning all humans into brainwashed drones or just exterminating them.
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>>100838099
The only end in HF I could ever like was Sparks Liner High.

The world is saved and everyone dies together.
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>>100832741
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Why is Gil so fabulous?
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>>100838292
>Wouldn't you say that pursuing an impossible objective is a mistake in itself?
No. Definitely not.

Rather, that makes it even more precious. If nothing that we do matters, then all that matter is what we do.
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Did EMIYA lost to berserker on purpose?
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>>100838311
The world isn't saved in Sparks Liner High. Rin will still hesitate to kill Sakura and be incapacitated. And without Rule Breaker, Sakura cannot escape Avenger, meaning that Angra Mainyu will be born.
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>>100838353
Because dodge to your left.
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>>100838380
He run out of prana
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>>100838380
No. People keep overestimating Archer's abilities. He's not that good. Herakles is really powerful (even though Nasu treats him as a punching bag to try an make the other characters look cool).
>>
>>100838381
Yes it will be. Rin snaps Sakura out of her darkness, Saber can't move, Sakura's thrashing causes the cave to tumble down on all of them.

Rocks fall, everyone dies, world saved.

"End"
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>>100838380
No, but he did pretty damn good.
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>>100838353
Tomatoes can be yellow, but i've never heard of a golden one!

So is gilgamesh an apple?
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>>100838444
If rocks falling sufficed to destroy Angra Mainyu then Shirou wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself by tracing Excalibur and using it to destroy the Grail in the Normal end (or Illya sacrificing herself in the True end).
>>
>>100838432
Archer is like Rider. Not very strong statwise, absurdly powerful NP. And even though UBW isn't an NP, for all intents and purposes it serves as a damn good substitute.
>>
>>100838292
>Wouldn't you say that pursuing an impossible objective is a mistake in itself?
It's hard to believe, as from time to time in books that I read it is written that pursuing an impossible objective is the one of the reasons to live.
But anyway, nothing stops impossible from becoming possible.
And in my opinion world peace means "no wars", not removing all conflict between humans at all.
And I think that's what his wish meant. Angra just twisted beyond recognition.
>>
>>100838200
>So you are saying that these actions were a part of his concept of justice? Especially killing unrelated people?
Uh, yes? Do I really have to clarify this? Murder used as preventative means against potential wrongdoings was how Kiritsugu operated. This is spelled out countless times throughout F/Z, it's the very reason he killed his father.

>Then where does his guilt come from?
Why is this a question? Kiritsugu's guilt finds its roots in the tragedy at Arimago island when he was small. He blames himself for what happened to Shirley and the rest of the island's residents as though he'd killed them all himself.

>The thing is that after he rescued Shirou he somehow (and it's hard to believe) regained his faith in justice and died pretty much a happy man.
Shirou perceived him as happy, but I don't know that Kiritsugu's actions spell out happiness. I could be wrong or overly cynical in this regard since I have some vague recollection of him being described as happy in F/Z's epilogue but don't quote me on that, but either way, he was constantly taking trips away to try and get Ilya back, only to fail every time. His body was slowly shutting down. He seemed to have been not very active during times he was home, usually sleeping, not making many efforts to care for himself. That doesn't say to me that he was happy.
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>>100838509
Having a few hundred tons of rocks isn't good enough to destroy the Greater Grail? Well, that just means that Kiritsugu's plan to use explosives to do just that must have been completely wrong.

A born Angra Mainyu would be a different thing, but the Greater Grail is fairly fragile.
>>
>>100838380
No, that would make no sense from any standpoint. If he wanted to dick over Team Shirou he could have just jobbed instantly rather than doing a bunch of damage to Berserker before dying, and that's his only possible motivation for losing on purpose. Half-assing a fight against Zerker then dying on purpose doesn't match any of his motivations.
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>>100838353
>tracksuit
Is Gilgamesh a slav?
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>>100838593
Why didn't Archer just kill Shirou when they first met in the first place?
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>>100838602
what? that's clearly a gakuran
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>>100838586
Angra Mainyu was already about to emerge and had practically manifested into the world. This is evidenced by the fact that even severing his connection to Sakura wasn't enough to stop him. Since Servants are immune to non-magical attacks, a few tons of rock wouldn't have had an effect on a Servant powerful enough to destroy humanity.
>>
>>100838380
Absolutely.
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>>100838706
Considering the fact that it isn't a Bad End, I pretty sure it is.

Rocks fall, everyone dies, world saved.
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>>100838586
It was too late to stop it by that point without magic, Angry Manjew had basically become self-sustaining even if he hadn't hatched yet and a bunch of rocks weren't going to do dick.
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>>100838540
Medusa's stats are actually pretty good under Sakura. E.g. she has a B strength, which is better than most. Archer is under an equally powerful Master, but his stats are pretty poor.

As for his match with Berserker, Heracles is immune to Rank B attacks and lower. Thus you need Rank A attacks to even scratch him. Since projections are automatically one Rank lower, Archer has to generate his most powerful projections and then blow a ton of mana to turn them into Broken Phantasms in order to harm him. And he becomes immune to an attack after being hurt by it once, so Archer can't just spam Caladbolg IIs.
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>>100838786
It's not self-sustaining when it's not able to get out yet. It needs the greater grail. No greater grail, no Angra Mainyu, world saved.
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>>100838829
And yet... just kicking the Greater Grail a few times and calling it a day wasn't a solution. So you're wrong.
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>>100836620
Kiritsugu tried to stop the war by rigging up explosives which would create an earthquake and hopefully stop it from taking place. The thing is, however, that since the grail was just incomplete it started much earlier.

If Kiritsugu knew and the time is random, why would he plant explosives and just HOPE he gets the time right?
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>>100838881
Because you're underestimating what kind of damage a few hundred tons of rocks falling down causes.
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>>100838432
If the whole 'heroic spirits are as strong as the number of people in history that have thought they were incredibly awesome' thing were true, Herakles should be stronger than Gilgamesh, shouldn't he? I mean, he's far more of a household name than the 'original' hero, right?
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>>100838959
Nasu also goes with older = better and Gil is older.

>>100838941
We are talking about an entity that's immune to non-magical attacks.
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>>100838882
Yeah, I already read up on that. So it was a wrong guess. But even then he taught Shirou magic. And yet he did not tell him anything about Maguses and their ways. So I think it is this way just because FS/N was written before F/Z.
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>>100838984
That has yet to be born and needs a fairly complex and fragile system to come into existence.

Hell, Ilya could block the damn thing and close down the grail on her lonesome.
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>>100838959
The fame bonus isn't that impressive. In their country of origin, it would be more impressive. I think it was phrased as something like "It won't make a strong hero weak, or a weak hero strong."
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>>100839034
Illya has complete control over the Grail though. She can destroy it for that reason. Otherwise you need a huge magical attack to destroy it.
>>
Archer can only be happy in a world where he can save people without getting dicked in the process
i.e. a shonen world, not Nasu's moonlit one.
>>
Can somebody tell me why such haircuts are so awesome?
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>>100839082
No, that has never been stated. Rocks will do just fine too.
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>>100839063
...but he's also Fucking Herakles. A demigod (descended from the head of his Pantheon) who did outrageous shit like it was going out of style left right and center.

It's not like he was just, you know, some dude.
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>>100839136
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>>100839143
If rocks would have worked why did Illya, who knew the most about the situation, choose to sacrifice herself? She had thought earlier in HF about how she wanted to live.
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>>100839136
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>>100838959
>Herakles should be stronger than Gilgamesh, shouldn't he?
And he is, physically. Gil power comes from his treasures
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>>100839207
Because she's dying anyhow, can't actually make rocks fall and she CAN shut it down.
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>>100839253
The rocks were going to fall down anyway and she would have lived for a few more months, which was much better than dying on the spot.
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>>100838882
He was trying to destroy the ley lines I thought, to prevent the ritual from even taking place?
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>>100839362
But then she wouldn't have had been able to save Shirou. She needed the grail's power to do her bastardized Third Magic after all.
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>>100839136
Tomatoes are not blue.

But yes that hairstyle is begging to get fingers ruffling it!
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>>100838959
Then Lu Bu would be the strongest hero.
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>>100839408
He used the leyline to cause an earthquake to come into existence in another few decades that would destroy the greater grail.

>Kiritsugu caused an earthquake
>still decades after dying he's killing people
What an asshole.
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>>100839413
Illya dies when she shuts down the grail. There's no reason to think that transferring Shirou's soul would have killed her. She had already done that on a smaller scale in the past after all.
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>>100839501
>Lu Bu in F/E
>Again a character that would be stronger without being a berserker
IT KEEPS HAPPENING
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>>100839468
I wish the DMC3 pc port was such utter shit. If it was half-decent, I might have gotten a mod where I could play with Agni&Rudra while using the spiral swords and pretend I'm playing Archer.
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>>100839501
>implying enough people know who he is
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>>100839576
Don't forget this Berserker.
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>>100839519
The Fate bad ending wasn't the third magic, Shirou's body was still alive. That was just basic puppet fuckery on an advanced level.

She's also using her own body to form the container for Shirou.
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>>100839621
China is the single country with the highest population, and always has been for the most part. Don't feed me that bullshit.
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>>100839576
Lu Bu would betray you if he's not summoned as Berserker, god knows what would happen he got summoned as an Archer.
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>>100839621
>implying there aren't mirrions of gooks
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>>100839645
>Shirou gets to be a little girl
It's not fucking fair.
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Shirou isn't just destroying the Greater Grail, he's going all the way because he wants to be sure that Angry Manjew is gone for good.
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>>100837933
>>100838150
>>100838284
There's a reason why Kotomine said "Rejoice! your wish have come true!" to Shirou right after Shirou 'officially' entered the war, He knows that the holy grail ritual is the conflict that Shirou could take advantage of to play the role of the 'ally of justice' in.

And Shirou knows this, hence there was the statement the desire to save someone is synonymous with the desire to see someone else in trouble in the VN.
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>>100838432
>>100838482
>>100838593
WHY DO YOU FUCKERS KEEP ON FORGETTING THAT ARCHER WAS STILL TRYING TO RECOVER FROM THE MASSIVE WOUND THAT SABER INFLICTED ON ARCHER IN THE BEGINNING OF FATE ROUTE (Archer doesn't have the benefit of the healing factor that Saber have). THERE IS A REASON WHY UBW ROUTE HAPPENS BECAUSE SHIROU STOPS SABER FROM WOUNDING ARCHER.
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>>100840199
As a MASSSSSSSSSIVE Archerfag, let me just interject with this.

No.
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>>100840199
No, he had recovered by that point.

Keep sucking Archer's dick and maybe you'll gain the ability to project swords too.
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>>100839501
>>100839621
>>100839652
You need to be in the land they are famous in to have such boost in power, it doesn't matter if the figure is famous as hell in one country if they are in a country they are barely known.

For example, Nasu stated if the holy grail war took place in Ireland, he would also gain more of his tools like the chariot, other weapons, and territory along with some boost in power.
>>
>>100840199
Lol nope
>"As you can see, I am merely checking my condition. The wound Saber gave me has healed. I cannot stay on watch forever."
>…I see. He's healed now. Then that means Tohsaka should return to the war.
Also it was Herc who didn't use his full power in his fight with Archer
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>>100839023
He didn't willingly teach him magic, shiro essentially bothered him till he would. He also taught him the basics like he shouldn't tell others and should avoid the mage society.

Though he really did fail as a teacher.
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>>100840291
Damn it anon, stop reminding me that I'll never get to suck off Archer's manmeat!

I hate you!
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>>100840199
Idiots always yell the loudest!
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>>100840379
No, Berserker went all out. Ilya wouldn't have let that shit slide after the first death, much less SIX.
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>>100840426
;_;
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>>100840291
How the hell is that poster in favor of Archer if it was replying to the posts that responded to a post that asked if Archer lost on purpose.

And Archer's projections rank down means that Archer have to spent a lot of mana to pull all his best weapons AND to overcharge them to broken phantasm to be even able to get past Berserker's God Hand, and had to make sure it is a different weapon each time.
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>>100840457
>A scream that shakes the earth. The giant screams as if going insaneand its every ability increases as it deforms and swells.
>"It can't be. You were just taking his reasoning away? You have not been using his berserker abilities all these times…!?" Saber's voice is uneasy.
>It's only natural for her to feel a shudder. Even I, unable to tell how strong a warrior is, can sense that it is not to be messed with.
>>
>>100840557
>"Geez, that pisses me off!
>Getting defeated six times... You weren't going easy on him, were you!?"

Derp.
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>>100840633
>You have not been using his berserker abilities all these times…!?
Archer fight was without ME.
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>>100840727
She's referring to their previous encounters, yes.
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>>100840787
You can't turn ME on and off so Herc got boost for the first time in the forest
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>>100840727
Wasn't that added in RN?

Fuck that. Nasu retconned half of the shit in FSN in RN and added LE, it's not worth considering canon.
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>>100840833
By that logic, Ilya couldn't have turned it off in the first place.
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>>100840878
No, she just didn't turn it on
> giant screams as if going insaneand its every ability increases as it deforms and swells.
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>>100840923
Yeah, he changed. And?
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>>100840942
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>>100840923
How is that proving that she can't turn it on and off?

I find it hard to believe that Illya would let Berserker get killed six time in a row, in a fight that pretty much lasts all night, and NOT use a trump card like that.
>>
Ilya probably used the whole spiel with the transformation for scare tactics. She doesn't just want to beat them, she wants them to be afraid as she slowly tortures and kills them.
>>
>>100840837
Hurf
>>
>>100841135
>in a fight that pretty much lasts all night
Nope
>Because the remains of the destruction hide what the place looked like just two hours ago.
>The battle itself has ended much earlier. But Berserker's Master has forgotten to act as this result is too surprising and unexpected.
Less than 2 hours
And
>The pride of a girl who considers herself the strongest cannot allow her to be cornered by someone who should be stepped on, begging for sympathy.
Her pride wouldn't allow go all out agains no name hero
>>
>>100841430
*against
>>
>>100841430
>Her Servant is the most powerful.
>There should only be one or two Servants able to match Hercules, the most famous of all the heroic spirits.
>But Archer, a heroic spirit of unknown identity, has defeated him.
>That red knight has matched Berserker equally and has succeeded in killing Berserker, something no one has been able to do before.
Archer matched Herakles, she was already cornered.
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>>100841579
Forgot pic.

She'd already been cornered, which is why she's so angry at Berserker.
>>
Madness isn't something you just turn on and off, And Rank A madness actually makes you more like a puppet. So Illya basically could actually command how much resistraint Berserker could have on his opponent. When she commands Berserker to 'go mad', she is basically saying go fight without her puppet Restraint.

>A: Rank up for parameters, but most of one's reason is robbed. Due to undergoing consciousness equalization with the Master, one has become a more mechanical Servant.

Basically rank A madness is much better than lower ranked madness.
>>
>>100841666
>Madness isn't something you just turn on and off
Based on what do you claim this?
>>
What I want to know, is how did Berserker not have ME on in the first place, then?

To summon a Berserker, you add the line to the summoning contract and the servant arrives nuts.
>>
>>100841754
Einzbern cheats
>Q: I thought that Servants can materialize in physical form because of the Holy Grail, but how was Berserker summoned 2 months before the Greater Grail was active? Was he summoned without the aid of the Greater Grail, using Ilya’s uncommonly high mana capacity?
>A: It was due to the ease of requesting material gathered at the Greater Grail, and some cheating, characteristic of the Einzbern. Although, Old Man Acht didn’t expect Ilya to successfully summon a Servant a full 2 months in advance.
>>
>>100841713
Because it is a permenant boost until defeat. And it is an aspect that you must cast the spell for when you are summoning a Berserker.

And it was stated that most of the masters in the holy grail wars have much trouble from Berserkers from consuming too much mana, and many of the Masters died that way.
>>
>The girl insulted the giant every chance she got and used him to take out her anger.
>The pain had lessened by the time she mastered Berserker's control, which was when the Holy Grail showed signs of its appearance.
>The girl took away the giant's sanity as if in revenge, treating him as a "mad warrior".
ME was already in place by the time the war began at least once.
>>
>>100841713
Not that guy but madness/insanity clearly implies lack of control. If there was an on/off switch it wouldn't be madness. By the very definition of madness he claims it, you fucking mongoloid
>>
>>100841859
That have almost nothing to do with his post.
>>
>>100841865
So based on nothing? Got it.
>>
>>100841878
On the Servants part.

Or is Kariya a raving lunati- Okay, bad example.
>>
>>100841876
That is just an Aspect of Rank A madness, you can actually control some of their mental capabilities to the point where they become a robot.
That, and it was Implied that Illya also used a command seal to aid in that control of 'sanity'.
>>
>>100841918
And you call your drivel any better? Most of them could hardly even support your statements.
>>
>>100842002
No, she quite clearly had him go berserk.
>>
>>100841876
See >>100840557
>You were just taking his reasoning away? You have not been using his berserker abilities all these times
He was mad but without enhancement part
>>
>>100842063
Ad hominem harder, please.
>>
>>100842074
No, it was SPECIFICALLY stated that Einzberns summoned Heracles as Berserker. Rank A Madness gives you the ability to determine how much self-control you can give to the Berserker.

So at the end of her training, Illya took away almost all control away from Berserker.
>>
>>100842133
Wow, you are not even using the terminology right.
>>
>>100842207
Nowhere in the skills is it explained that with Rank A you can control how much control they have, just that the servant has become more mechanical because of consciousness equalization.

>>100842124
Which had been turned off, because it wasn't necessary.
>>
>>100842322
and no where in any of Type Moon lore does it state you can turn on and off Madness Enchantment either.
>>
>>100842416
Herakles has bouts of clarity slong with his False Eye of the Mind functionality kicking in.
>>
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Archer and Shirou best husbandos.
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>>100842637
Shirou looks adorable when he's covered in blood and utterly confused.
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>>100842606
That's because he was defeated, just like how Lancelot was able to talk to Saber after his defeat. The enchantment is pretty much dispelled upon death.

also:
>In the circumstance of the Assassin and the Berserker of Fate/stay night, it refers to a natural talent to avoid danger on the basis of an innate 6th sense, intuition, or prescience, where accuracy of instinct has been augmented by experience -- somewhat overcoming the problem of visual obstructions that appear in the course of combat.

>B: (Even though Heracles’ sanity was lost due to Mad Enhancement, this skill remained effective as it is nearly an instinct. When crossing swords with a seasoned swordsman like Arturia, he would not fall for half-hearted feints. It is such a troublesome ability for Hercules’ opponents. Although monstrous in size, Hercules has a high rank in Agility. As a result, it is very difficult to corner him.)
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>>100842760
No, I'm referring more to the blocking Caladbolg and refusing to move sideways against Gil.
>>
You can turn your servant into a Berserker with a command spell, Ilya doesn't run out of those, couldn't she just use them freely?

I mean her spell does glow when she orders him to go mad against Saber.
>>
>>100842812
That have nothing to do with turning ME on and off.

That's is just his instinct combined with Eye of Mind for combat, and his nature of protecting Illya due to their trial they faced together in the past, illya still gave Berserker some aspect of control after all.
>>
>>100842961
But she'd already robbed him of his sanity weeks prior.
>>
>>100843078
taking away sanity doesn't mean you make them into a rock. After all, Illya still had to allows Berserker to make his own decisions when fighting. In other words, Berserker's mind might be a mess but he is still thinking and responding to Illya's command.

She can't pilot him like a Gundam or Tetsujin.
>>
>>100843078
>Being close to the strongest Heroic Spirit, even restricted to simple direct melee as consequence of Mad Enhancement, Heracles was undoubtedly the strongest among the Servants. However, because of Mad Enhancement, a variety of sword techniques and skills, and a part of his Noble Phantasms was lost. Having his emotions also sealed off and not able to perform any personally motivated actions, only the reason within his core was not lost, having occasions when he felt something like the will to protect Ilya.
>>
>>100843324
No, even at A rank, they're still acting on their own. That's not their sanity.
>>
>>100843393
So you are disagreeing because you are agreeing?
That's what the post was already saying.
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>>100843519
That Berserker had been Mad Enhanced, yes.
>>
>>100843376
Seems pretty dumb to have made Herc mad/berserker. I mean, every single one of his tragedies and great downfalls in his life was a result of his losing control of himself or going mad over something. That sort of thing fucked him up completely, then you induce it on purpose when you summon him?
>>
>>100843548
>Einzbens
>not dumb
Choose one.
>>
>>100835750
You don't have to like him, you're just expected to show a bit of sympathy.

This is the same problem with Shinji in Eva, although there it stems because most people delude themselves into thinking they would have acted very differently at 14.
>>
>>100838380

He ran out of mana, obviously.
>>
>>100843676
You know, I hate when people think that a character have to be 'relateable' or 'likeable' to be a good character.
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>>100836846
>Nothing is ever wrong with Archer, no, and nothing that happened to him could ever happen to be a blameless but sad incident, perish the fucking thought
But I thought that a lot of Archer's fans were aware that the mess he became is a result of almost exclusively his action, and his obsession with following an ideal that he later decided he didn't like. I like that fact because I see a bit of myself in that, setting the wrong goals and only realizing too late. Or worse, being scared to set any because you don't want to end up like him.

I do agree that the people that view him as a flawless heroic figure are annoying.
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>>100843957
>ideal that he later decided he didn't like
That's wrong, too. He's troubled by it and he hates what he's become, but he still wants to believe in it.
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>>100842637
Is Shirou ever not utterly confused?
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>>100844163
No, but that's a his moe point.
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>>100844024
>That's wrong, too. He's troubled by it and he hates what he's become, but he still wants to believe in it.
I phrased it wrong. The ideal he still liked, but he came to hate his inability to come close to its realization.

I think.
>>
>>100844237
Well something like that. Anyhow, Archer is pretty complex and troubled.
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>>100838797
Also she can use monstrous stength to boost that further
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>>100839667
He'd be better as a lancer
>>
>>100846531
No, that is with Monstrous Strength, I'm pretty sure.

Though her lack of melee skills does limit her impressive abilities; someone like Kuzuki can still oneshot her pretty easily.
>>
The best part of F/SN was when Shirou beat Archer.
>>
Archer after rediscovering his will to be a hero meets with his FSN self that still despises his old self, that has all kinds of potential to be an awkward meeting. They're bound to be a little embarrassed seeing each other, but the main reason FSN Archer would be is due to what his other self chose to wear to the fight.

Too bad the before the fight text was never really translated as far as I know.
>>
But what if i don't have any ideals.
>>
>>100850584
Too bad CCC will never be translated what with Aksys giving up on it and all.
>>
>>100850584
>R:What is that, what is this? Why is there a you, Archer?
>A: Calm down, Rin. It would seem there are irregulars in this hgw.
>Your Archer: I see, what a Unicellular Organism(single-minded creature) I appear to be. No, excuse me, I'm just rambling about my past selves self-development. Worry not though, at least that Tohsaka Rin is not the same girl you know. That servants appearance... Could they be...
>R: There are a lot of things I would like to ask, but this isn't the time for questions. Archer, strike at them.
>A:At the heart. Rin, get back.
>Your Archer: They're coming, get ready.

Something like that.
>>
>Ufotable's anime begins Airing
>Starts off looking like Fate
>Turns into HF
>Everything stays faithful to the VN
>Shirou meets with Kirei in the church
>Decides he wants to be a superhero
>Next episode has a new Intro entirely
>Mind of Steel begins

A boy can dream...
>>
>>100853847
But HF is terrible until the final handful of days.

Why not have it start off as Fate for the first few days to lay out the groundwork of this grail war.

Transition to UBW until Shirou defeating Archer yields his arm, defeats Gilgamesh in lieu of Sakura devouring him - then her dark side really starts to shine though.

HF-esk style, not given the option of Mind of Steel, and blindside the secondaries to hell and back.

As Shirou-rebuilt by Archer's arm and Saber's power though Avalon travels to put an end to Dark-Sakura's possession Saber intercepts a trap. She 'dies'.

Shirou and Viewers grieve for an episode, and try an recoup before delivering the final blow.

Episode 26 becomes Sparks Liner High, only he has UBW.

Shirou still comes damn close to losing. Episode 26 ends.

[Spoiler]Episode 27 he gets back up. Rule Break, Kotomine duel, and final Excalibur. Because fuck HF 'good'. [/spoiler:lit]

Ufotable hire me.
>>
>>100853235
Good banter; it leaves a bit to be desired on some end but they do a bit of back and forth there.
>>
no
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>>100834949
It's because he was supposed to be a girl protagonist with saber being male. But it got changed because sales.
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>>100834949
>It's Nasu's fault. Apparently he had to write Shirou that way for some stupid reason?


Uro: Honestly, Saber doesn't look much like a heroine to me. I can still see traces of the male version of Saber that appeared in the early version of Fate (*7). Because of that mental image, Saber's relationship with Shirou doesn't seem like a realistic relationship between a male and a female, but a complicated relationship with a boy who became a girl.

Nasu: Typical Urobuchi... I really can't pull the wool over your eyes... I intended to take that to the grave with me, but I guess this 10-year anniversary is a good place to talk about it. Just like Urobuchi-san said, it's difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman. Saber has fought for a long time as the ruler of Britain, but then turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time.
>>
>>100854191
So who's the heroine?
>>
>>100854191
Actually each day has somthing decent in it, it just gets lost between the frequent bouts of 'oh sakura are you not feeling well ?'

If they can edit it right it will be great
>>
>>100858690
Apparently the author is thinking about extending it to five books to pace it right, rather than needing to have the remaining servants get into a big battle.
>>
>>100837985
Counter Guardians are Heroic Spirits, try again
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>>100837985
Counter Guardians are sub category of Heroic Spirits, both are stored inside the throne of heroes but normal heroic spirits are locked in read only state while Counter Guardians are updateable data.
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>>100832741
>body made of swords
>lives as a sword
>natural affinity for swords
>reality marble that summons swords
>summoned as archer
How?
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>>100858690
Godammit Vlad why are you so overpowered
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>>100861786
Not cute enough to be a saber
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>>100861786
They break after a few seconds, and so he needs to replenish them.

A lot is actually lost in the translation because they cut some text out. When he's projecting he uses steps similar to the steps he used for his archery.
>>
How strong would Gallahad be as a Servant?
>>
>>100861550
Maybe a subset at best, but no it is different. A guardian is one who gave his life in exchange for eternal servitude by the contract, while a heroic spirit is one who was recognized for his deeds and was called up by the Throne rather than having to ask to join. There are some differences, but heroic spirits that aren't guardians tend to have a far easier afterlife here. The throne really wasn't supposed to summon something like him as well, that much is true. It was only because it was messed up that Medea, Medusa, Sasaki, Emiya, and Gilles could be summoned as they aren't quite Heroic Spirits there. Most of them would classify as something a bit darker in a sense, as even Zouken realized the grail was fucked up after Gilles was summoned since he knew that was not a proper hero by definition.

>Q: What kind of role does the World give to Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians? Also, what do magi call people with high divinity or are closer to the planet?
>A: Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians are simply treated as traditions that lend power to the later people. Those that became closer to the planet don't mix well with people so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.
>>
>>100861786
He's a blacksmith first, then a swordsman and lastly an archer.

>>100861797
Home turf, now if Seiba was summoned in Britbong land, she'll be tearing everyone a new asshole
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>>100861786
Stats not high enough for Saber class, and Archers are not "One that uses a bow" even if they can do that, but rather the exact classifications given are " A class that excels in possessing powerful Noble Phantasms. The qualifying condition is not attributes, but the possession of powerful projectile weapons or special abilities related to projectile weapons. Highly effective as scouts. They have not only the Magic Resistance ability of the Knight Classes, but also the class ability of Independent Action".
>>
>>100832741
Sure is a deep quote.
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>>100862040
He's supposed to be similar in power to Saber in Britain or Herc in Greece, thats why they boosted his base stats, to make them similar in strength (when you take into effect demonic defender)
>>
>>100862004
Extremely broken if we're going by actual legend. But Lancelot's noble phantasm does mention that he was "unrivaled" during his age, so I don't know how much Nasu would follow the legend with that.
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>>100862220
Herc is said to get a boost in most of Europe really

All it takes is having a huge amount of people that know of him in the area
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>>100861797
>>
>>100862356
>summon Galahad
>skill might have relation to obtaining the grail
>FUCK YES WE WIN DA GRAIL
>mfw it's corrupted
>angry manjew's manjuice everywhere
>Kirei REJOICES

I think summoning Galahad is equivalent of Einzbern BEST PLAN EVER
>>
>>100835847
>Yes, he is supposed to know. He installed Avalon in Shirou, Avalon is a catalyst, he knew that Grail wars start again when the core finished recharging mana, Kiritsugu had Eisenberng help in getting information, etc.

Uhh... Kiritsugu placed a bunch of magic explosives around the Greater Grail set to go off in 50 years or so (around the time he expected the next Heaven's Feel to happen) to destroy the ritual for good. He had no idea another one would happen a mere ten years later.
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>>100862497
Speaking of Einzbern, how did they manage to lose an entire branch of magic?
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>>100862776
Apparently the guy who had it just fucked off somewhere. You can't just pass over True Magic in a crest.
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>>100862776
You teach it wrong
Somone learns it wrong
He teaches the wrong magic wrong
somone learns the wrong magic wrong
etc
Eventually it will be so wrong that it can't work.
>>
>>100862356
Nasu could bullshit so hard by saying something akin to that "Galahad was so much stronger than Lancelot that their relationship was more akin to be Eclipsed than being rival'd"

Or Nasu can just ignore it because he's Nasu
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>>100862400
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>>100862607
No. He screwed with the leylines of the area so that energy would be trapped there until the pressure got too high and the whole place got destroyed.
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>>100863276
So what was up with this guy in the end?
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>>100863276
>>
>>100838482

If Illya figured out who Archer was in HF after he returned to the grail, why didn't she in Fate?
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>>100864343
Because she only had Archer in HF

Sakura took everyone else, so it was easier to read one soul rather than a swirl of seven souls mixing together like a typhoon. Also it's partially thought that he might have told her something before the operation, but she knew too much for that to be a real theory in some ways.
>>
>>100864026
His noble phantasms is a reality marble were its possible for him to create a copy of Adam. He uses this to make adam and then take him out of the reality marble (like iskander and shirou does).

Adam can absorb massives amounts of prauna from the earth so long as his feet touch the ground, whilst his feet touch the ground he slowly turns the surrounding area into eden, and inside eden no violence can exist (so he's essentially invunrable inside it).

Astolfos lance makes whoevers hit by it kneel, so he smacks adam with it , which negates his terraforming/prauna draining powers and then Seig/Mordred finish him off with a combination blast of clarent/balmung

Darnic was giving him Gordes to use as a mana core for Adam, but after the cripple took over she said no, when shirou offered the black team a truce, the jew betrayed them and used his master as a core instead.
Chiron was not pleased
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>>100864397
I was kind of wondering why Black team turned against their own guy like that. After all the only way it would work is some kind of betrayal being involved.
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>>100864395
>rather than a swirl of seven souls mixing together like a typhoon

By that point in Fate the only other dead servant was Rider, but I get what you mean.
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>>100864063
>>
>>100864530

Why is loli Jack so best servant
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>>100864495
If it helps Seig joined back up with the black team and made up with gordes
well up until Reika killed him
>>
>>100864495
Team Black seems turned Einzbern-tier of competence the moment they lost Team Castlevania
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Lets say you summoned Hans C Anderson as your servant, but you also really didn't want to die in the war. What would you do to improve your chances here considering he's a servant with no physical ability, but if you use his NP right it could have world changing consequences unless you end up using it too much in which case you're in bad end zone. Still it'll at least be a poetic bad end.
>>
>>100864609
She's a surprisingly decent assassin
>Information erasure
>presence concealment
>Murder of the misty night
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>>100838652
Here we go again it's a fucking biker's jacket.
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>>100864920
It's clearly a school uniform

This is a bikers jacket
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>>100864530
>>
>>100864988
It's a leather jacket Gil would never wear peasant clothing.
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>>100864849
Can Hans The Gambler Summoned as Caster?

you know, that Grimm Character who tricked the devil by using a loaded Dice in a gamble(thus gaining his army of Demons), Tricked Death into climbing a tree to get apples(thus everyone gaining immortality since Death can't fetch the souls since he's stuck in a tree)
>>
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>>100865216
His swimsuit seems rather normal
>>
Would you have a three-way hug with Archer and Shirou?
>>
>>100865379

Isn't that just his outfit he wore as a kid in HA?
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>>100865024
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>>100865671

Best trap.
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>>100832741
Here I upgraded your archer, to someone who follows through with his convictions, and who doesn't lose to his former self.
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>>100865671
>we'll never see Astolfo "cheer up" Orlando
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>>100865671
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>>100865660
Yes, but shota Gil also had BnP tier shirt underneath
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>>100865660
It just might be
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>>100844233
But the point to the left is higher than the "peak"
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>>100864609
She's cute, yet probably the best assassin in the entire game.

Seriously, fog is already a bullshit skill, add in the fact that she instagibs any female and in the hands of the right master it'd be auto win.

Though let's face it, fourth assassin should've won it's war too, if only Tohsaka papa wasn't a fucking moron.

>Let's summon the greatest hero to ever exist in the history of mankind! I'm sure he'll be totally ok with being my servant!
>>
>>100865818
ufotable should animate this instead of shitty f/sn
>>
>>100866229
Best Assassin will always be Li Shuwen

The guy was literally so stealthy that he actually turned invisible and undetectable by any means even if he's standing right in front of you. His NP is just a punch that is supposed to kill you outright when you can't see him, but since your servant is very good it only takes away 90% health instead. Then there's the fact that he's just plain overpowered in terms of martial arts even barring the previous stuff, and I forget his other skills because when you're literally invisible it's kind of hard to pay attention to the rest.

He uses Chi to hide his form at all times, but if you can block his Chi entirely then you might be able to block that ability. Also as Berserker he has an Anti-Gate NP that we see briefly.
>>
>>100866266
First, it's not yet finished.
They should animate it after F/SN is animated so they can have the funds and audience for F/A
>>
>>100866229
Knowing Fate her instagib against females will fail.
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>>100866731
She fought medred, but couldn't activate it due to mordreds NP obscuring her details
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Always a classic servant
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>>100837934
wait how do i get this mind of steel thing? i only have return to the spring there?!
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>>100868126
Complete the whole route a second time and there will be another ending
>>
>>100865024
>No Galvanism
What happened ?

Galvanism was the only thing that made her worthwhile as a servant ?
>>
>>100832982
This actually sounds better and makes more sense.

Now I want to question MM's translation of the whole game.
>>
>>100865760
cant you shop TouMAN ontop of the hill?
>>
>>100838380
Not quite.
One interpretation is that he held back.
The reason being is that if he used some of his more destructive noble phantasms then Ilya would've been caught in the crossfire.

As it stood he considered her death to be his greatest failure and thus couldn't bring himself to harm her at all.

It is possible that he could have won but that's all just speculation.
>>
>>100869675
I always thought he just didn't have the prauna to kill berserserker enough times.

He could have won via killing illya, but he wouldn't do that.
>>
>>100870006
He was filtering prana from Rin, that's how servants work.

Generally though; it's a combination of him being wounded before, he was in an unfavorable situation of being up close with the strongest servant, fighting a guy he had to mortally wound twelve times over in order to win while Berserker only has to hit him once to win, and his own softness.

There's all kinds of factors that really say why he lost there even if he "could have" won normally, but that's why it's impressive he even did that well. As long as a servant is connected to the master prana isn't the biggest concern.
>>
>>100870355
Cu can only use the bolg 7 (or so) times before he needs time to recharge. And thats a B+ NP thats supposed to have a remarkably low cost for its rank.

Now granted thats at C rank Mana.

Meanwhile archer would have to project an A rank weapon (at least) charge it, then overcharge it to make it a broken phantasm and then use it against Berserker.

That doesn't add up , the only reason he could have gotten six kills is that some of his NP's killed Herc more than once. 3 Nps sounds about the right mark Prauna wise, if not less.
>>
>>100871154
Cu's master is also not so good in the mana department, unlike Rin.
>>
>>100871154
Archer called UBW twice without a master and managed to Raw Anus Shirou and snipe Gil.

Rin supplies decent juice as well.
>>
>>100871331
He had Caster as a master for a while who had A + mana ie 100+ times the amount of mana a normal person has.He was well stocked.
>>
>>100871331
Archer murdered Caster while using most of his mana as a joke in the basement, then summoned his NP and used far more NPs than he did previously even if there was no real prana cost since they were already in the marble, fought Shirou when he was down to 1/10th of his mana and made dozens more projections with ease, his spiritually core was damaged but still used Rho Aias and called forth another couple hundred swords to bail Rin out later.

The guy has a very decent reserve, and his Mana stat is higher than Gil's at least. B rank mana isn't anything to really look down upon.

>>100871654
It's noted that she gimps even Assassin in terms of mana, so she won't give the full amount to someone she doesn't even trust here. Saber noted he used a lot of his mana in the basement killing Caster with his fanciful swords, but he just kept going.
>>
>>100871294
That would be great if rin was near him at the time, but she was busy fucking off with shirou.

do you think Rin has enough mana to refill somone with 30-39 the mana of humans in the space of the whole 20 minutes or so that battle went on for ?
>>
>>100871752
That's not how it works

Master and servant are bound by the spirit, and no matter how far away from him she is she can refuel him and check his condition. That's how she knew he finally died later on.
>>
>>100871715
>Gimps assassin with mana
i may be entirely wrong here, but isn't assassin getting his prauna from the leylines, hence why he can't leave the mountain ?

>Saber noted he used a lot of his mana in the basement killing Caster with his fanciful swords
Arguably casting the reality marble itself wwould cost much less then dragging all of those swords out of UBW
>>
>>100871857
So why doesn't rin just sit at home
why didn't kariya just stay in bed for the entire war
why would zouken not just put his soul into a bug in germany and control assassin from there.
>>
>>100872103
Servants are connected to the master, but it does help to be there in person to asses the situation and make your own call. Though with that being said Tokiomi had the right idea with how to fight and survive in the war. He could still issue orders and watch the situation to a degree, but he didn't know the details without Kotomine watching in on it all. All he could really tell is something like "Gilgamesh is using more mana" or in case the servant was damaged he might be able to tell that much. He still needed Kotomine to fill him in on what was going on there in order to make a decision based on the facts. That's the advantage of a master that's actually there at the time, they can make calls on the fly that will benefit the situation. The problem with this is that the master is nothing but a glaring weakspot as well that can be taken advantage of.

It all depends on the style of the master themselves, and Kariya wanted to do things persoanlly while Berserker distracted Gilgamesh. However he didn't count on his incredible inferiority there, and how their elements coincided. Well you can partially chalk that up to him being half crazy at that point, but he had the right idea at first by hiding in the sewers and commanding Berserker.
>>
>>100872318
I'm not arguing that there connected to their masters, im arguing that they can't provide them with decent prauna unless their near them.

Gil's a bad example because he has independant action

In this case gils a bad example
>>
Holy shit Shirou is Archer. Now it makes sense.
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>>100872457
He's a bad example anyway since you can't really judge the amount of prana he's using even if you're connected, since the only prana cost of GoB is the initial cost of summoning the key.
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>>100872514
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>>100866921
Actually no Jack knew Mordred is female but couldn't NP her since Mordred summon lightning to cleanse the fog.
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>>100833134
It's a metaphor, as in that his ideals won't save him
The "Terrible" one is still better, but there is a point to the word "drown"
>>
>>100862367
No no no
You get a boost for being in the General Area of your Legend
Europe for Herc or Vlad
And a bigger boost for being where your legend took place
Greece for Herc, and Wallachia(or what used to be Wallachia) for Vlad
Presumably you get an even bigger boost for being in the "heart" of your legend, like Vlad being summoned in his Castle, but that is just guess-work, the other two are confirmed
>>
>>100876230
>Q: If the Holy Grail War were set in Europe, would Cuchulainn (Lancer), King Arthur (Saber), and Herakles (Berserker) be roughly equal in power?
>A: ...Well, if we’re talking western Europe in general I’d say the first two would be powered up to an equal degree... though in England and Ireland, the odds would be sharply in the respective hero’s favor. Herakles would display excellent power through all of western Europe.
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>>100832741
drown in this
>>
Guys, why didn't Archer traces Nine Lives and killed Berserker with Nine Lives Blade Works?

Serious question.
>>
>>100879608
Because Archer isn't crazy like Shirou and wouldn't think to trace a giant slab of rock over the other weapons he has available.

It's not like Archer knows about Nine Lives and that he would be able to access it by tracing Berserker's weapon.
>>
>>100879608
Even Berserker who was blind and without skin almost killed Shirou in the same moment. Regular Berserker isn't falling for that shit as much.
>>
>>100879822
>It's not like Archer knows about Nine Lives and that he would be able to access it by tracing Berserker's weapon.

That's kind of poor reasoning you have; Shirou used Archer's own abilities to figure out the secret to Berserker's tactics and know instinctively which weapon is best suited to take him down. Of course if Shirou using only Archer's power and knowledge can figure out how to do this then Archer using Archer's power and knowledge can figure out the same thing. All it requires is looking into the history of a weapon and calling upon the memory or tactics of the sword. HF Shirou at his best never reached Archer's level, so of course Archer is able to do the same thing with even less effort. If Shirou can read a blade, determine it's the right choice, and call upon it's memory then of course Archer can.

The difference is that Archer isn't suicidal, as it's stated directly he'll only go after the path that has the best chance of victory.
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>>100880069
>Archer isn't suicidal
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>>100880270
Well, he's a different kind of suicidal anyway

More like a combination of homocide and suicide really
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>>100861786
Because he is the old D&D rogue, and not the paladin.
>>
>>100879608
Berserker at the time no longer had God Hand, was blind, and only needed to die once in order to stay dead. And he still almost managed to get in a strike on Shirou.
Nine Lives Blade Works hit Berserker nine times, but it's not as if it killed him nine times. He died once.

Beyond that. We don't even know if Archer did use Nine Lives Blade Works on Berserker, chances are that he actually did. That said, it's very probably that he didn't and that the move simply isn't resource efficient and that using it would be his last move on the giant and that he refrained from using it because of it.

Archer took down half of Berserker by himself. That's mighty impressive.
>>
>>100879608
Dark Berserker wasn't killed by 9 lives despite the fact his extra lives were gone, he was blind and still had the wounds that originally killed him. Shirou had to do a follow up attack which only worked because Berserker hesitated when he sensed Illya.

>>100880362
>homocide
>>
It took me a long time coming, but I actually managed to start looking at Archer and see an older Shirou instead of somebody unrelated and the character became a thousand times more tragic.

I mean, I understand it conceptually from the outset, but their difference in appearance put a subconscious block on it, I think.
>>
I really wish someone would redo the FSN translation.
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>>100839502
Japan's good with earthquakes, It's doubtful that tons of people would die
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http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/index.php?v=183
Fuck, the part with Illya
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>>100833134
>With yours, there's no point in even using "drown". You could just replace it with "die" or any other synonym.
But that's fucking backwards. The first translation is redundant. It should go without saying that someone who drowns is fucking dead.
>>
Fuck you, Dante.
>>
>>100838649
Because Saber cut him the fuck up
Because Rin's might Command Spell to stop him
Because Rin's first Command Spell might lower his stats enough that Saber wipes the floor with him
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>>100887135
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>>100841754
I don't think they arrive nuts. Unless they're Lancelot who's wallowing in "waaah why won't my king punish me for fucking her wife" and keep that shit on all the time
>>
>>100841754
What do you mean? Surely he did have ME on in the first place, right? Berserkers aren't 100% random. They lack reason, but they still have a master to follow.
>>
>>100865024
I want Frankenmoe to be animated
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>>100887587

Berserkers do not in fact arrive berserk, but mad enhancement exists to make weak heroes into powerhouses. Masters are expected to activate it either immediately or before every battle, as a Berserker sent into battle without it will be weak.

Lancelot without mad enhancement wouldn't even be able to keep up with Gate of Babylon and couldn't pull his awesome thief tricks. He probably couldn't beat back Saber, either.

Herakles is an oddball because his stats are so ridiculously good across the board without the enhancement, that he has nothing but loss because his cunning is his best asset (how he solved the majority of his famous Labours and most of his ordeals before and after, too. He only performed a handful of tasks that were just pure brute strength, and a slightly larger handful were just pure brute strength applied creatively). He's the worst type to be put in Berserker: a fantastic hero with a great mind and no great need for more power.
>>
>>100887712

No, Ilya just robbed him of reason without using the Enhancement effect.
In the original PC version, at least. This line was changed in the Realta Nua release (changed to merely letting Berserker run free without her control), so I imagine Nasu was never really satisfied about that twist anyway.
>>
>>100838509
>Excalibur
You're overestimating Shirou's condition. He had at that point already created a caladbolg, a four petal rho aias, rule breaker and then he'd gone around and fistfought Kotomine for a good 10 minutes.

His condition makes the quality of the projection questionable and his prana reserves are too taxed to fuel a full "Excaliblast".
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>>100881280
Yes, he died that many times.
>>
If Berserker never had the Mad Enhance on, then why do his stats remain as they are even when Ilya makes him go mad?
>>
>>100888398

How exactly the master-vision-book works is rather unclear, but I can assume it'd be something like Shirou seeing his Mad Enhancement rank, and applying the bonuses by default even if Herakles isn't expressing them in person.
>>
>>100888761
I hate that thing so much. I mean, is Berserkers normal strength A+, A, B or B+?
>>
>>100888878
Wait, when did we start talking about bloodtype?
>>
>>100888291
Are you reading that as he has literally died twice? And that God Hand has 10 charges left?

Shirou just killed him once. Berserker didn't even have God Hand anymore.
>>
>>100888878

Presumably A.

>>100890168

He can't be stripped of the curse of resurrection without dying a sufficient amount of times. That's why it is a curse, not a blessing. He was stripped of the armor because his skin was dissolved. Shirou killed him eight times, then speared him with a ninth.
>>
>>100888761
I awlays though that if its an always active condition then its shown as part of there stats.

part of why frankenmoes stats are so shit is that she can turn her madness enchant on and off, and so her stats are pre madness enchant.
>>
>>100879608
The Berserker Shirou killed was a few times weaker than the one Archer fought. The fight was offscreen but you can assume Archer threw everything he had at Berserker, he lost because Berserker was fucking Hercules and Archer was Shirou, a comparative no name.
>>
>>100838540
UBW isn't that good. Most other servants have stronger NPs, really the only one who doesn't is Assassin. Archer would've got vaporised by Excalibur or Bellerophon, it's outclassed by Gate of Babylon, Rule Breaker is top tier OP shit and his luck isn't high enough to avoid being skewered by Gae Bolg.
>>
>>100894395
Caster is stated to be the weakest servant in the war as Rule Breaker is only useful in very specific moments. GoB is equal with UBW when UBW is fully up.

Don't fool yourself into believing him to be weak for the sake of it, because his versatility and abilities make him decently mid-tier out of the servants in the fifth war. What he can do with planning is even more, but just in terms of stats and abilities he's mid-tier all around.
>>
>>100894550
It might be only useful in specific moments but when used properly it's probably the best NP overall. Had Archer not backstabbed her, Caster would've won the Holy Grail war with Saber under her control without breaking a sweat.
>>
>>100894395
>it's outclassed by Gate of Babylon
>is literally stated to be the ultimate counter to The King of Heroes himself, not just GoB

You are retarded.
>>
>>100895797
This is what Archer fans believe.

GoB takes forever to activate. Shirou only pulled it off because 1. Gil didn't take Shirou at all seriously and 2. Archer threw a Rho Aias in front of Shirou while the latter was activating it. Gil would have taken another Servant more seriously and Archer wouldn't have had someone helping him by supplying extra projections either.
>>
>>100837741
but you didnt imply red => tomatoes nor red => archer :/
>>
>>100894693
Cu mentioned that Archer could have taken Caster at any point before she could control Saber, Archer even proved that he could take her at any point when they fought briefly, he only humored her in order to get rid of his command spell but she was probably weaker than even Assassin unless the battle starts off at very far range. Her NP only breaks contracts as well, not all magic and sorcery.
>>
>>100895797
This is what Archer fans believe.

UBW takes forever to activate. Shirou only pulled it off because 1. Gil didn't take Shirou at all seriously and 2. Archer threw a Rho Aias in front of Shirou while the latter was activating it. Gil would have taken another Servant more seriously and Archer wouldn't have had someone helping him by supplying extra projections either.
>>
>>100894395
It's support abilities are what make it broken.

See that enemy with his melee weapon out? Bam, you now know his true name and his weapon's true name. Not ringing any bells? Worry not, you can just read through his history and find out. See something you like? Apply it for your own schemes!

Bellerophon isn't stated to be powerful enough to break through Rho Aias, it's merely said that if it is able to break through then Rider will win in their confrontation. Excalibur is too strong, though and he'll have to avoid dealing with it.

Gate of Babylon is better vs. other Servants and has more varied shit and is better cost wise, but in a confrontation between UBW and GoB, UBW holds the edge because it's faster and makes the user better at close combat. Gil's natural enemy is Archer, after all.

And nothing is holding Archer back from having his own Rule Breaker. Hell, he could DUAL WIELD Rule Breakers. Double the backstabbing scumbag tactics!

And Archer can just stay out of the activation range with Gae Bolg.
>Takeuchi: So, would Archer get hit?
>Nasu: For sure. But since he knows about it, he wouldn’t approach Lancer in the first place. If it looked like Lancer was seriously getting ready to use Gae Bolg, Archer would already be frantically getting as far away as possible.

Though CCC and Extra also imply that Rho Aias is far away enough to prevent skewering, even if it isn't very cost effective.
>>
>>100896027
>Natural enemy:
>None (Zero)[2]
>Archer (stay night)[1]

Read and weep, bitch nigga.
>>
Caster, despite her tactical strength, is the weakest Servant in the Fifth War, barring Assassin due to his limitations.

Everyone has fucking magic resistance and even the one fucker without it is free to come and stomp her ass while she's inside her own damn Temple.
>>
>>100896027
It's literally stated in game in third person omniscient to be the ultimate counter to the King of Heroes.

You are literally retarded.
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>>100896008
>Her NP only breaks contracts as well, not all magic and sorcery.
Wrong
>All Spells Must Be Broken
>According to Caster, “This is a sword of negation and betrayal, that nullifies every kind of magecraft in the world.” Capable of returning objects strengthened with magical energy to their former state and nullifying connections bound by contracts, it could be said to be the ultimate “anti-magic” Noble Phantasm. It is an effect suitable to the Noble Phantasm that is a manifestation of Caster’s nature as the “Witch of Betrayal”.
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>>100896160
This quote also implies that he can block Gae Bolg's curse with Rho Aias, or that the thrown version does indeed have the same attribute of always hitting perhaps.

Providing a shield that can overcome the magical energy of the lance can stop the curse it seems. However if you're unable to do this then the curse is strong enough to kill even Arcuied as directly stated.
>>
>>100896423
The ranged version is a homing exploding lance, but it lacks the causality fuckery.
>>
>>100896534
The description for the Piercing Thorns state it has the same weaknesses. A shield that can beat it's power will stop it, and it doesn't have much power for an NP, certainly less than it's thrown version.
>>
>>100896631
The thing is you must prepare shield before Gae Bolg name is invoked. After, even if you try to use shield, you'll still get hit
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>>100896394
How does that contradict anything he said?

UBW is outclassed by GoB. That doesn't mean it can't counter Gate of Babylon at all.
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>>100887135
this will never happen ;_;
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>>100896027
You are fucking retarded. Did you perchance watch the DEEN movie? SHIROU, pulled the shield from the hill when he used UBW. ARCHER used it to stave off the worst of the Ea blast.

SHIROU used a shield to block a continuous barrage while simultaneously activating UBW.
>>
>>100896394
Archer would never get a chance to use UBW. Hell, Shirou would have still gotten beaten by Gilgamesh with UBW active if Gil had wore armor. His armor was able to withstand multiple direct hits by Excalibur, so Gil would have ignored Shirou's sword strikes and been able to pull out and use Ea. Gil really had to go the extra mile in gimping himself to be able to be cornered by Shirou. Archer wouldn't get the same.
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>>100898178
You know, I'll throw in this as well.

>Q: In the end of the Rin route, was it Shirou that projected Rho Aias in the Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight? Or was it Archer? In Fate/side material, it's said that it was projection magic from Archer, but in the story, there was the depiction of Shirou "pulling the shield from the hill". Does this mean that this switched to Archer's scene?

>A: This has been easy to misunderstand, but the part about Archer supporting Shirou was the time before Shirou pulled out Rho Aias, before Shirou came to his realization. After Shirou's monologue about his surprise that he was still alive after taking Gil's attack, "If I survived, there must have been a reason why I survived. But that was simply something I didn't have any control over." That was the "Rho Aias" that Archer made to help Shirou in a way that wouldn't let Gilgamesh know there was someone else waiting to ambush him.
>>
>>100898232
Gil has B rank Endurance.
Saber Alter has A rank Endurance.

Kanshou and Bakuya cut through her torso with ease.

Also, it tanked Excalibur for a mere moment. Then Gil went, "Not bad, babe." and kicked Saber's ass with GoB.
>>
>>100898299
>The invisible sword keeps hitting the man's armor. The sword smashes against the armor, shaves it, letting off lightning sparks. All the man can do is to protect his head with his hands. This isn't even a match. This is just one-sided elimination. But. Still, the golden armor retains its shape. If the armor is free of damage even after taking Saber's attacks so many times... Could it be that his Noble Phantasm is his golden armor?

This doesn't sound like a mere moment. Gil's armor is extremely powerful. And Kanshou and Bakuya are ranked C-, while Excalibur is A+, so I doubt they'd fare any better against it.
>>
>>100898299
It's a good thing Gilgamesh's Endurance stat doesn't actually account for his armor, then.
>>
>>100896394
It's the counter to GoB, but that isn't all Gil has up his sleeve. He has Ea, and Ea can rip Reality Marbles apart at the seams, Even if Archer summoned UBW to deal with GoB the moment Gil draws Ea it's all over, the only reason Shirou managed to 'defeat' Gil was because he was just fucking around, by the time he realised "Oh shit, I need Ea here" it was too late. He wouldn't make that mistake against Archer. Shirous greatest weapon was that he was incredibly easy to underestimate, an advantage Archer doesn't have.

So yes, UBW is a 'counter' but it's pretty irrelevant since Gilgamesh has plenty of other stuff to use to shit all over Archer before he can even use it.
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>>100898518
It's a mere moment, it's less than 30 seconds.

>>100898572
Yes it does. Endurance is AC.

>>100898594
Yes, because using it on a mongrel whose not even a real heroic spirit is sooo something Gil would do.
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>>100898518
The next line is Gil going "Welp, my armor's done for. Time to stop jerking around."

Also, I already said that Shirou could break through Saber's superior armor. Even with an inferior weapon, an armor can be cut open with the right strike.
>>
>>100898662
Less than 30 seconds = mere moment? Would Gil need more than 30 seconds to pull out Ea? Shirou was only able to keep Gil from using Ea because he instantly cut off his arm.

And you can't seriously claim that Gil would treat a kid that barely knew any magecraft the same as an enemy Servant.
>>
>>100898662
No, all it indicates is the amount of damage Gil himself can endure. It's not like the armor itself became more fragile when Gilgamesh's Endurance went from B to C.
>>
>>100898662
>Yes it does. Endurance is AC.
It's physical, body endurance, it doesn't include armor
>>
>>100898833
What makes you say that Saber's armor is even on the same league as Gil's and an accurate metric of what Gil's armor could withstand?
>>
>>100898860
>Would Gil need more than 30 seconds to pull out Ea?
And leave his head wide open? Thanks!

> cut off his arm.
Which aren't really all that well protected, with those gaps and all.

>And you can't seriously claim that Gil would treat a kid that barely knew any magecraft the same as an enemy Servant.
No, I can't. Gil was pretty scared of Archer after all. I mean, Archer told him to step off in UBW in regards to Tohsaka and... Would you look at that, Gilgamesh stepped off and only reappeared to strike out once Archer had gotten a sword through the chest.

Man, what a pussy.
>>
>>100898833
Gilgamesh is virtually invulnerable in his armor. It takes an attack of Exalibur level power to cause him any damage at all.
>>
>Q: Gilgamesh has no skills in swordsmanship, would Assassin win if Gilgamesh is caught in the range of Tsubame Gaeshi?
>A: Most likely, he will just defend with his armour, or take out some really unfair defensive armament that protects against Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon, from the Gate of Babylon. However, Gilgamesh is capable of accurately assessing his opponents' abilities, so he would not consider having a battle of swordsmanship with Assassin the first place.

Gil's armor can block Tsubame Gaeshi, something Saber's armor could not do. Obviously it must be much more powerful.

>>100899012
Gil has two arms you know. He can shield his head with one of them and pull Ea with another.
>>
>>100899012
Saber couldn't hit through the chinks of his armor. EMIYA is sure as fuck not performing better than she is.
>>
>>100898912
No, that's from his lower Magic and from losing his magical shields thanks to Saber's excali-rejection and the subsequent mudbath.

His armor is the same as Saber's and could be fixed, his magical shields he uses to compensate for his magic resistance and boost his defense he can't replace.

Also, lowered Magic means lower HP, meaning a lowered ability to take damage.
>>
>>100898969
The fact that she has a higher Endurance?

>>100898929
No. Just like how Strength isn't their physical strength but their ability to inflict damage, Endurance is calculated by their ability to receive damage. Armor, physical resilience, magic reserves for healing.

>>100899055
>or take out some really unfair defensive armament
Not his armor.

>>100899082
Gil needed his both hands to protect his head. Also, Archer has two swords, what do you know!
>>
>>100899055
It says he has something that cancels the refraction, not that his armor can block it.
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>>100899097
Yes. Physically.

Nowhere is Saber's armor stated to be as durable as Gil's. Even his armor raises his magic resistance by quite a lot.
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>>100899206
The line was "he will just defend with his armour" or that he might pull out something from GoB, i.e. either tactic would work.
>>
>>100899255
Nowhere is it stated that his armor is superior to hers, either.

Never are they put to the test against a same source on an equal level. Most of the time we see Saber, she's nerfed after all.

The stats exist to show this shit without having to demonstrate everything.
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>>100899206
Why are you pulling shit out of your ass? Strength IS physical strength, E rank strength=10x average human strength and it's the same for other stats.
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>>100899292
Oh, whoopsie. Well, that his
>Gilgamesh is capable of accurately assessing his opponents

Not his armor. Assassin has C strength and a no name sword. The issue isn't armor penetration but the other attack that snakes it way around with "Knowledge of Respect and Harmony".

Also, Berserker has A-rank endurance through his skin and Shirou could bust that with Caliburn, who says Archer needs to just use Kanshou and Bakuya.

I mean, he has access to every sword ever. There's somewhere a perfect can opener for Gil, I'm sure.
>>
>>100861786
Because from the very beginning it was noted Shirou was a Prodigy of Archery. That was who he was before Avalon was installed.
>>
>>100899448
It's their bodily attack ability. Might is one part, skill is another, their weapon is also counted.

Just like how Agility isn't just speed or how agile they are. It's about reaction speed, dexterity, dashing speed and agility. Cu is one of the fastest sprinters ever, yet Diarmuid has markedly higher Agi.

Why? Because his dual wielding of two spears of different weight and length requires insane skill.
>>
Are people seriously arguing that True Assassin and Zero Lancer, with C Endurance and no defensive armament whatsoever, would perform just as well as Gilgamesh against repeated Excalibur slashes?

That's some shit. Of course Gil's armor increases his ability to receive hits.
>>
>>100838579
I'm... pretty sure he meant no conflict, let alone wars. No conflict = discrimination, exploitation, competition for resources, etc. Possibly sadism as well, though I'm unsure about that one.
>>100838292
>"Wouldn't you say that pursuing an impossible objective is a mistake in itself?"
>Quoting Archer.
>>
>>100899354
Nasu takes pains to describe Gilgamesh's armor as something on-par with a Noble Phantasm by itself, to say nothing of how it raises his magic resistance, which is originally E in FSN.

I don't remember a big deal being made out of Saber's armor.
>>
>>100899608
>their weapon is also counted.
No it's not.
>Being ranked at 1 under the system identifies the ability of a normal human, so the E Rank, classified as 10, indicates someone ten times above normal human ability.
Nothing about weapons
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Archer could just pull out a weapon with enough strength to bust straight through Gil's armor.

Or that nice proto-harpe that straight up ignores armor. Or a Gae Dearg type weapon that goes straight through magically woven armor like Saber's and Gil's.

The guy does have options.
>>
>>100899901
Yes.

Lancer, B rank weapon, B rank attack.

Archer, C- rank weapon, D rank attack.

Saber, A++ weapon, attack depending on prana support B to A+.
>>
>>100899899
His magic resistance comes from his treasures. The mirror shield from Fate etc.
>>
>>100899913
Too bad that Tohno Shiki would kill both of them with his eyes closed and both hands tied behind his back.
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>>100900025
No, it's a class skill. It comes from being summoned under Archer. That's it.
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>>100900032
Who dares summon the Shiki?
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>>100900141
Tohno can kill Gilgamesh.

When he killed Arcueid, 17 cuts landed in "an instant".
This is on the same level as 5th grail war Asassin's Tsubame Gaeshi. This is in fact canon. Non only that, but Arcueid was not able to notice she was being followed, nor feel any killing intent from Tohno until the blade already killed her. This is on the same level as asassin servant presence concealment.

In the official Tsukihime manga, Shiki was capable of slicing and killing lightning shot at him by Roa. A low estimate of the speed required for this would land at 96,000MPH, which is the atmospheric discharge of lightning at denser levels (closer to lower altitudes.)

Tying together presence concealment, Zelretch level ability (flash sheath), and A class speed, Shiki could in fact stand a chance against most servants. His trump card that would place him above anything summoned under asassin card would be that he essentially has an instant kill move if he ever gets near, making him a very deadly oponent.

To use concrete evidence of Shiki proving himself time and time again, we can look at who in fact he has killed.

Nrvnqsr Chaos the 10th apostle. In one attack Tohno managed to kill all 666 of his lives.

Michael Roa Valdamjong, said to be immortal by traveling between Akasha and back, "reincarnating". Tohno severed his connection to Akasha, erasing his existance.

It's good to take note here, that Servants are tied to the Akashic record in the throne of heroes, which is what allows them to be summoned in the first place. When shiki kills a servant, they can no longer be summoned. Sounds like just the kind of person Archer was looking for.

In the "Talk" side story for Tsukihime, Tohno manged to kill the forest of Einnashe, the seventh dead apostle. He also managed to kill Einnashe's reality marble.
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>>100900092
No, that's different.

He uses a mirror shield to deflect Ilya's magic in Fate and then in UBW to ignore Rin going ballistic over Archer disappearing.
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>>100900168
Shiki strong!
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>>100899984
True Assassin weapon Dirks
Strength: B
So Dirks are equal or stronger than Gae Bolg?
Stop it >>100899448 say it's physical
>>
>>100900235
Remove Dead Apostles from the premises.

Shiki has the wisdom of the falcon.
>>
>>100899899
Surviving getting hit by Berserker isn't a big deal?

Well alright then.
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>>100900174
What point are you even trying to make?

Gilgamesh's Magic Resistance is still a class skill. He can just increase it via his treasury, as we know he can do with the mirror and his golden armor.
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>>100900236
It's a compound stat, he has the physical strength to compensate.
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>>100900336
That Gilgamesh's armor isn't unbreakable.

Now that I think about it, Lancelot's D-rank flares also fucked Gil over pretty good.
>>
>>100899448
That's a page from a doujin fanfic, dude. I think I've seen it on pixiv, too.
>>
>>100900490
It can also only take a few hits from Saber's B rank STR before it's in danger of breaking.
>>
>>100900490
Of course it's not unbreakable, but it can block attacks more powerful than those that hit Saber, so people claiming that Kanshou and Bakuya could easily cut through an armor that Excalibur couldn't penetrate are perhaps blinded by how gar they are for Archer.
>>
>>100900561
Saber was using Prana Bursts in that scene to boost the force of her attacks. And Archer has D strength.
>>
>>100900561
>>100900583
At B rank Endurance.

And it doesn't even have to be Kanshou & Bakuya.>>100899913 There's many ways to skin a cat.
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>>100900557
>Fate/side material
>doujin fanfic
lel
>>
>>100900561
It was hit by a Noble Phantasm.

The scale for NPs is radically different than the one used for physical attacks. C rank becomes A-rank, and Saber was actively boosting Excalibur's power in that scene.
>>
>>100900624
Prana burst is what gives her B strength, it doesn't allow her to go beyond that, it's not like Monstrous Strength.
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>>100900672
Please use the World Material next time.
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>>100900624
Why are you so ignorant. All of Saber's attack use Prana Burst. Without it she has the strength of a fourteen year old girl. In HA she tries to lift some weights Rin owns without using PB and can't do it.

There's a reason Shirou was like "Saber has no ability to harm Berserker since her normal attacks are B and her Noble Phantasm is C" in the scene before he uses Caliburn.
>>
>>100900673
Are you talking about Invisible Air? That's only C when being released.
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>>100900673
No, when they're just fighting normally and Gil's fucking with her, it says even he has to get serious eventually because another hit will shatter his armour.

She used Excalibur for the final hit.
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>>100900672
To be honest Fate is sometimes as bad as its own fanfiction, so the mistake is understandable
>>
>>100900672
That's a coupon to a nearby Chinese restaurant. Stop messing around.
>>
>>100859948
People fall in love for even stupider reasons. Don't beat it over your head, Nasu.
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>>100837016
I want to lick it.
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Is DEEN's enuma elish Canon?
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>>100900235
Submissive arcueid is best arcueid
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>>100900880
Then why did she bothered removing her armor?
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>>100900780
Man, that caliburn scene is a total bullshit for me
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>>100909170
Needed prana, armor was the last of her reserves.

>>100909356
Nah.
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>>100909356
Can't be helped. It's among the worst asspulls in F/SN. Even Nasu acknowledges it.



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