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What if these two get in a battle of morals and ideals
>>
Touma can kill servants

Discuss
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Both of them have a track record of getting mindbroken.
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>>100391625
Touma shatters Shirou's super hero illusion.
Shirou becomes Archer. Archer decides fighting an idiot isn't worth it and just tells Touma he's right, then walks away. The battle ends in a draw.
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Boxing match
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>>100391690
If he can hit one, sure.

Would depend on if they know about IB or not. Touma has the reactions to tag one probably since they're supernatural and also wouldn't really care if a human hit them, but if they know about it he'll never hit them. Might break their weapons though.
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>>100391625
What if NTVol9 Touma fights HF Shirou?

Both just want to protect a woman, knowing they are wrong.
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>>100391781
Can Touma null/break ea?
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>>100391932
Can probably surpass negation, volume 20+ Touma could handle it by throwing it off to the side or throwing it back at Gil.
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It ends with Shirou having sex with Touma to replenish Touma's mana, at which point Touma lets Shirou know that even he knows how to please men. Isn't that obvious?
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>>100391625
dont they basically share the same morals and ideals?

Why would they even fight each other?
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>>100391877
They become comrades, Shirou traces Gungir for Othinus and Touma heals Sakura with IB.

So fanfiction.
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>>100391987

Does Touma's power ever evolve from just negation using his right hand?
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>>100392049
>I want to be a superhero like my Dad
>Superheroes don't exist! I'll break that illusion of yours!

And so the fight begins.
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>>100392065
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>>100392049
Depends on which route.

Fate Shirou Touma wouldn't get along with very well. Touma himself thinks heroes are silly and unnecessary, and doesn't really have a sense of good/evil like Shirou does.

UBW Shirou and Touma would get along better, since he's more flexible.

HF Shirou and Touma would get along great, since Touma is all for throwing aside things like morals for the sake of one person.
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>>100392115
So Touma is basically Marche?

Fuck, I thought he was a cool guy.
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>>100392080
It doesn't really evolve, he just uses it differently.

He can bend and twist things that are strong enough to surpass negation, throwing to to the side to protect himself or even throwing it back at his opponent. And if it's attached to his opponent (like Accel's wings and Thor's blades), he can grab or push them and throw them around.
>>
Shirou steals Touma's girls. Touma ends up alone and beaten.
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>>100392259

>strong enough to surpass negation

That seems kind of silly.
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>>100391625
You'd think they'd just agree with each other.
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>>100392115
Unlike you, Touma is Japanese and won't refer to Shirou as a superhero but an ally of justice
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>>100392360
IB isn't almighty, it's rate of negation isn't infinite (though according to Terra it's much weaker than it should be and Touma isn't using it right).
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>>100391998
this is fucking glorious
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>>100391998
B-but Gunha is Touma's only love.
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Better question. Touma and Shirou swap gluttons. Shirou gets Index and Touma gets Seibah.

Will Touma go broke? Will Shirou partake in the forbidden love of a loli?
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>>100391625
Seiba and Index appears.
Seiba drags Shirou home because she's hungry.
Index bites Touma because she's hungry.
>>
Better yet:
Shirou's harem magnet vs. Touma harem magnet
Who wins
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>>100392687
Shirou's has a smaller radius but he keeps who he gets.

Touma gets more girls but they tend to disappear and lose interest since he doesn't really care about them.
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>>100392668
>Touma accidentally touches Seiba. She wakes up again before she makes her contract.

>Illya gets pissed because there's another loli usurping her place. Sakura gets pissed because another glutton appeared. DEAD END
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Raildex is poor man's Nasuverse.
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>>100392899
>Not realizing Nasu and Kamachi are twins separated at birth
They're hax is just so similar is all.
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>>100393026
>They're
Time to drink less, sorry.
>Their
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>>100391625
What do you mean
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>Drown in your ideals and die, Kamijou Touma
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>>100392115
Isn't Touma kind of a superhero? He has a power and uses it to help people.
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>>100391625
What if they got into a fight with an even greater threat. Hard-mode: Kira has the Strike Freedom with him and he just had sex with Lacus and has double plot armor.
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>>100393259
He isn't, considering academy city is full of superpowered individuals.
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>>100393259
>“… things like heroes are unnecessary.”
He's got a twisted mindset like Shirou, except instead of making him obsessed with saving people it makes him not care about morality.

According to Aiwass he's good only from other people's perspectives. He just happens to naturally have the urge to do things that people consider good.
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>>100392817
You forget Rin trying to get at that sweet sweet grimoire collection

Also Touma touching Seibah before she vanishes probably wouldn't be enough to unroot her from time, also that would be way too lucky for Touma.
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>Touma goes to Nasuverse
>Befriends Sacchin and they both share fukou da's.
>Index meets Illya and they go into mahou shoujo hijinx

>Shirou goes to Kamachiland
>Befriends Gunha and they go and fight crime
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>>100393608
Gunha is just Shirou without angst basically.
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>>100393608
>Index meets Illya and they go into mahou shoujo hijinx
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I'm pretty sure Shirou could beat up Touma in a fist fight (he lifts and shit).
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>>100393608
>Accelerator goes to Nasuverse
>Gilgamesh goes to Kamachiland

what happens?
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>>100393894
Not much probably.

They're both pretty strong, but neither of them are powerful enough to make much change in either verse.
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>>100393894
Gilgamesh joins the slut brigade in Nagaispace.
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>>100393894
Accelerator gives no shit as long as people leave him alone.

Gilgamesh just wants to get drunk. He will troll people out of random boredom though.
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>>100393608
What would happen if Arc and Himegami meet?

A true vamp and a vamp bug zapper
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>>100393894
If you switch Gil up so he works off of Indexverse rules instead of Nasuverse, he gets alot stronger from having a shitload of original weapons and Idol Theory.
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>>100393608
>Touma joins the grail war
>wins
>touches the Grail

Either he cures the grail from angry man jew or he breaks it forever, thus stopping the cycle.
>>
So has anyone ever calc'ed how fast Saints, and Servants move?
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>>100394284
Last I checked Servants are like mach 15 with mach 45 reactions.

Saints are either mach 11 or mach 20 (can't remember which) in movement with mach 100+ close combat speed.
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>>100393256
>Implying Thor wants Touma to die from his ideals
Nigga was pissed as fuck when Touma started pussyfooting around in saving people.
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>>100394284
I don't know about Saints but as far as servants are concened they're pretty close to sound or past it if I remember rightly
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>>100393259
Touma actually does what the fuck he wants to do. I think Thor already said that he is forcing his ideals on people.
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>>100391625
They will become best friends forever.
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>>100391625
In the middle of the fight they would start shouting at each other and they would continue to argue until they get tired and go home.
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>>100394390
Yeah, but he just wants Touma to be stronger so he can kick his ass.
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>>100393259
Guy doesn't care about heroes, if he sees a gal being harassed by thugs then he'll try to save her, but he won't just wander around at night to look for people in trouble
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>>100391690
0 lancer had a spear that destroyed magic shit and he's one of the weakest servants
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>>100391690
It's like that boat that he was on made of magic

Sometimes you have to hit the thing that connects the thing to Earth rather than hitting the magical entity. Servants are tethered to Earth by the master or the grail, if he can touch the command seal then that might be something as he can break the connection, and then maybe the servant will be vulnerable. Perhaps touching the grail will work, but at the same time the grail is an Earthly machine of sorts.

sometimes it doesn't really work like "This thing is made out of magic, so I OHKO it", like that thing during Terra that I can't even pretend to actually remember here but offhandedly sort of remember something happening there where Tsuchimikiado was like "Nah, won't work".
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I like to think it'd end in a brofist with divine breaker and HF Shirou's archer arm.
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>>100394528
This, this is the big difference between Touma and Shirou, Shirou to an extent goes around looking for shit going badly and Touma just saves everyone withing his sight, Shirou may not do patrols outside of the Grail War but he'd be way more inclined to than Touma would
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Isn't Touma really weak? All you need to do is get a gun and shoot him in the head. Imagine break that shit.
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>>100391625
Shirou is someone who needs his ideals to live, as it's the only way he can find meaning, atonement, or happiness in life.

Touma is someone pretending to be his former self without actually believing half the shit he says at times in a way. He's just trying to live like the person he thought his other self to be.

At worst Touma can shatter Shirou's illusions and make him into HF Shirou, but without the drama involved. More like "Go home and be a family man", but Shirou's ideals are far more determined in the same time, so they really won't shatter so easily like that.
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>>100394652
Touching the Servant would probably drain them fast of Mana, which would fuck over weak masters such as Shirou and Servants do have a spiritual core to them which if destroyed kills the Servant.

Though Shirou defeating a Servant by himself is as laughable as Shirou soloing a Saint
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>>100394652
Think you're talking about the ley lines conversations.

Touma's power is to revert things to way they're supposed to be, it destroys distortions. Things like souls and ley lines are supposed to be there, so it doesn't work on them very well (it kind of pushes around ley lines, but doesn't break them).

Now Servants constantly have Gaia trying to kill them because they're distortions, so if IB will work on anything it's them.
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>>100392049
Not at all, Touma kind of denies things like heroes when Accelerator is all "Why couldn't a hero like you be the one to save her" in WW3.
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>>100394740
Mostly he gets around that kind of thing with stealth. The Russians, Baggage City, Hawaii, the terrorists, he deals with guns by being sneaky and either avoiding the fight or getting in the first hit.
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>>100394740
Touma won against terrorists using hot coffee and thermal expansions
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>>100394773
>Though Shirou defeating a Servant by himself
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>>100394877
Is he a fucking chinese batman or something like that?
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>>100394910
Think the guy meant Touma
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>>100394934
I'm pretty sure he meant that too, but hey I went for it
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>>100394927
Touma gets pretty stealth in the LN. He has to since magicians start using gun-toting mercenaries against him and even the magic-users start to heavily outclass him.

Hell, NT 5-6 has him leading everyone by their nose by pretending to be working for both sides at once, making both of them go after the other instead of going after the real target. That includes tricking Magic Cabal leaders and fucking Ollerus.
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>>100392687
The Tohno gland.
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>>100394740
He's a tiny bit batman, but yes an appropriate counter to Touma would be just to shoot him or beat him to death with a lead pipe.
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>>100395006
I feel like I need to read the source material now. It sounds good.
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>>100394927
Touma also surfed in a huge ass sword through England and landed punching a princess.
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>>100394910
Even Shirou himself said the only one he could possibly match was Gilgamesh because their power was the same, and because this guy is the king of jobbers.
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>>100395058
Shooting him yeah, going into melee against him ain't a good idea unless you're a really good martial artist though.

This guy blitzed that terrorist with the knife and freaking lariated his way through a huge mob of people after all.
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>>100391625
Not happening. They'll be best friends. They'll also open a business cooking and delivering healthy meals with a side of justice to the needy, bringing comfort and a friendly face to those who have fallen on hard times. Girls everywhere will melt in their presence, and then have a stroke from too much brain function as their mind shorts out from trying to decide which one's harem they'll join.
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>>100395197
Especially now that he spent years grinding with Othinus and fought about 10031 times.
Thor will go crazy after that sweet EXP.
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>>100395242
Wopps, meant to quote >>100395178
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>>100395006
His plan in NT 5 takes a bit of a detour though...

I still can't believe Anti-Skill shot him xD
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>>100394773
>>100394910
>>100395176

>What is Sparks Liner High
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>>100395312
Baito
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i want to befriend Touma and do cool guy stuff
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>>100395402
I want to befriend Aogam and share fetishes
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>>100394703
Accelerator even had a tantrum and tried to kill Touma for not being Shirou.
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>>100395312
>xD
Fuck off.
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Can Touma suppress Roa in Ciel's anus?
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>>100395197
Touma and Shirou are pretty different socially though.

Shirou is a good student who goes around constantly volunteering and helping people. He doesn't get into trouble and is fairly popular.

Touma is a delinquent with poor grades (though he's apparently really rocking at physics and math), who just hangs out with his buddies. Hell, according to the Anti-Skill definition they count as Skill-Out (who consider any groups of level 0 delinquents to be Skill-Out).
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>>100395435
Then Touma just went "fuck your shit I'm busy" on him.
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>>100395322
Shirou ending up brain dead?
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>>100391625
Probably boring as fuck because we saw that erryday.
It's called internet arguments.
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>>100395371
That actually happened. He isn't joking.
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>>100393292
They'd need Kirito's help on this one. And Jesus would still win it.
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>>100395322
That was not "Shirou", that was 80% of Archer's power and tactics being channeled through Shirou so that he could match a servant on even ground.

That is not a feat that he can replicate naturally
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>>100395616
Still won

>>100395705
Bullshit. He stole it from Archer. He steals EVERYTHING. None of his victories ever count then right?
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>>100395802
Not really a win considering Saber was only incapacitated momentarily, and Shirou ended up essentially dead.

He just fulfilled his goal, didn't really win.
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>>100394661
That seems like it'd end...poorly.
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>>100395802
>Still won
Assuming Rin succeeded.
Shirou effectively died. Saber would have just gotten up.
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>>100395855
If he hadn't fought berserker it would have been a win.

>>100395884
It says at the end that Rin will manage to stop sakura. Saber said she would need ~10 minutes to recover iirc.
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Isn't this exactly what would happen if Touma entered a reality marble?
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Is Shirou pro-life or pro-choice?
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>>100395855
If Saber wasn't connected to infinite prana then it was noted that even she would have been killed there, but at present it would have taken ten minutes to heal entirely.

>>100395884
If Saber does not interefere in the battle between Rin and Sakura then we know what happens there, and the result of that action. By the time Saber gets there Sakura will be a sobbing wreak thinking she killed her sister, and she if she can even do it before Angya stops her will command Saber to kill her since she just wants to die. Thus Angya is stopped since his host is gone, Saber vanishes, Kotomine dies alone, Shirou is brain dead, Rider eventually vanishes, and Rin is killed by the falling rubble as the cave collapses.

At best it's an "Everyone dies, but the world is saved at least" ending
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>>100395992
Choice
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>>100392425
ypu cant be a hiro shiro you are already one
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>>100395979
That, or the Reality Marble is constantly regenerating so Touma stays inside but you constantly hear IB breaking something.
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>>100395992
Depends on the route

If killing the child meant saving the mother, or killing the mother meant that the world dies, then he'll pick the former.
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>>100395979
>>100396087
A reality marble is basically just an Esper's AIM field, and Touma doesn't destroy an Esper's power by being near them.
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>>100396047
Something Touma and Shirou can argue about!

(I don’t have time to hesitate!!)

Kamijou faltered because his opponent was pregnant. He was quite hesitant. However, hesitating here would mean his death and Freyja would continue to use the baby inside her for her own purposes. If her shocking statement about two years having passed was true, he could not leave this be. Japan’s laws seemed to not give a fetus human rights as long as it was inside the womb, but he felt those laws could eat shit.

He would bet on the possibility of saving that child no matter how slim it was.

(Sorry!!)
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>>100396154
He would kill Hyouka if he actually touched her, and she's made of AIM Field.
Basically, Touma would need to touch the servant.
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>>100396087
Isn't Gaia constantly trying to break whatever Reality Marbles are made over it regardless? I feel like it'd be the same thing
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>>100396195
I was responding to the Reality Marble posts.

Reality Marbles are pretty much word for word the same thing as Esper powers anyways.
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>>100396194
Nigger what, I was making a joke based on what Shirou was fighting for in the final scene of HF
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>>100396301
Ah, I understand, thanks for the explanation anon.

(I won't take it back though, I want them to argue about this.)
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>>100396247
I think it's just the pirated NPs that Shirou shits that Gaia destroys.

Reality Marble is how much juice the caster can provide.
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>>100396264
What if Espers all had poems for their Personal Realities?
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>>100396376
Is that so? I was under the impression that the reason keeping up a Reality Marble takes energy was because it interferes with the image Gaia has, after all it doesnt actually target the stuff Shirou makes at all, look in his shed some time
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>>100395998
Saber Alter has different stats though, so against Normal Saber, Shirou could have very well just lost.
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>>100396376
Reality Marbles are one of the things that Gaia is constantly trying to destroy since they override the Marble Phantasm in place on the world.

One of the ideas that Fate mentions is that magic once weaved isn't something that can be easily erased. The kind of shit that needs constant mana to exist are things that Gaia is specifically trying to erode like Reality Marbles, and Servants.
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>>100396359
Shirou basically was at odds with Kotomine here since the child about to be born was literally the devil that would undoutably kill all mankind. They were arguing whether the child knew since or if it was just following it's nature, and how even if it knew no sin before it's birth as it understood no reason it still presented the clear death of humanity here. After all it's not that it only "Might" be the devil here, rather it literally could only bring about the death of humanity with it's awakening.

Still Shirou acknowledged that Angya had no sin as he had no knowledge of sin before birth, he might be an innocent just as the mother was in a sense, but he had to make the call there even if it meant sacrificing one. He chose to save the mother rather than the child, as Kotomine wished to save the child because he wished to usher an evil birth into this world in order to get an answer to his own truth, despite this path being impossible since if it was born he'd be dead.
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>>100395979
Essentially yes. I imagine Imagine Breaker is more potent than Gaia's will, which erodes away at unnatural existences.

He might not be able to break the Reality Marble instantly, but I don't doubt Touma would be able to nullify an area around himself and spread from there.
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>>100396602
Don't think IB is stronger than Gaia, but it's kind of moot as they're basically the same thing anyways (well, more like IB does the work of Gaia).
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>>100396441
It doesn't target broken machine parts, but they do eventually disappear after a few months just the same. However it targets NPs because Gaia knows that it's the real Caliburn, it knows Caliburn, so it'll call bullshit a hundred times harder on something like that. However if he's just copying random scrapes of metal in his shed it's like "Well this seems suspect, but I can't really say it's wrong just yet".

Gaia knows there's only one Caliburn or whatever other NP, but broken machine parts or any other random metal it'll be a lot harder to prove.
>>
Should i read Index or railgun
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>>100396664
IB is stronger as in its effect is more focused and works faster, even if its range is limited to only things he touches with his hand
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>>100396727
Read the Index LN and the Railgun Manga. Ignore the Index Manga.

If you're talking about which one first, Railgun relies on knowledge from the LN a fair bit.
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>>100396667
Are you just making this up or is this from something? I remember Shirou saying pretty specifically that the shit in his shed wouldn't go away unless he broke it, since that's how stuff "normally" works to him
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>>100396727
Index LN. Railgun manga.
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>>100396770
>>100396867
thanks i remember bookmarking the link to the the LN a while ago i am sure i can google it and find it again.

I will start on the Railgun manga for the time being since i didn't feel like continuing on with the anime
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Broing it up
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>>100396389
What is mathematics but the poem of science?
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Reminder that TOUMA DID NOTHING WRONG
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>>100391877
So Kamachi is copypastaing stories to that level now, is he? Pathetic writer.
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>>100394384
People keep saying mach 15 but isn't that just Seibah? And under certain conditions or something, for that matter?
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>>100398096
Lancer of the NTR kept up with her at that speed though.
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>>100391690
Shiki can kill touma.
Therefore, shiki can kill servants.
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>>100391690
Can L-Elf kill servants?
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>>100398096
Most Servants should be something around Mach 5 to 10, varying by their AGI Rank and other individual skills.

Even low tiers like Kanzaki are supposed to be close to if not into the triple digit Mach, at least for combat purposes.
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>>100398186
Shiki can kill anything so yeah
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>>100392406
DID SOMEBODY SAY ALLY OF JUSTICE!?
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>>100398311
>most servants should be around mach 5 or 10
>berserker of 5th hgw, who has super high stats, can only move at mach 1
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>>100398301
There's nothing ERU ERUFU can't do.
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>>100398301
El-Elf could've won the grail war from an armchair, much like Kayneth wanted to do.

And he could've done it with Assassin.
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>>100398311
Eh, Kanzaki isn't exactly a low tier.

Saber is probably like Queen of the Adriatic level.
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>>100398096
Servants can move at low mach speeds normally, Saber when boosted with command spell to JUMP will move mach sixteen through the air, and Archer's BP arrows regularly move mach sixteen as well.
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>>100394211
>cures it

As if he's that lucky.

>..fukou da.
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>>100398363
When was his exact speed stated in the story?
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>>100398301
Of course he can, what kind of question is that?
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>>100398363
Combat speed, not movement speed.

>>100398465
Well, in comparison to the sheer amount of characters, no. If speaking of a strength chart though, she falls somewhere in the middle. My apologies.
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>>100398505
Nine Lives Blade Works
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>>100398673
It said speed of sound, but I doubt that was an exact measurement and more of a poetry thing. Not to mention Black Berserker is somewhat weaker than normal Berserker since blackening really did not take well to the guy.
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>>100398736
The reason you defeat Berserker's speed is because you exceed the speed of sound.
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>>100395136
what vol/chapter was this in?
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>>100398673
Uh, the calc. I found for Nine Lives Blade Work is more along the lines of 12,932.4 m/s, or near Mach 40. And this was performed by Shirou.
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>>100398781
Volume 18, somewhere near the end of it.
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>>100398815
Huh?
Where'd that fanwank come from?
The VN shows that Berserker was moving at Mach 1. And even with NLBW, Berserker would have killed you with that Mach 1 speed had Ilya not interfered.

>NLBW moving at Mach 40
>when Saber being empowered with a vast amount of prana can only move at Mach 15
And she's a real Servant who has superior stats. How the fuck do you go faster than that with inferior prana setup and a weaker body?

You faggots are the same as those Tohno Shiki faggots who think he can move at lightspeed. Fucking MCfaggots.
>>
Their ideals are so similar, I don't know why they would fight. Actually...

You know, if I think about it...

Well, have you ever seen Shirou and Touma in the same place at the same time?
>>
>>100398780
it's godspeed, nine simultaneous strikes in the same instant that all hit at the same time.

Which is why it got it's name as the Hiten Mitsurugi-ryū secret technique, Kuzuryūsen.
>>
>>100398939
Their ideals are way different really.

Well, except for HF Shirou and Touma, they'd get along great.
>>
What if they only fought each other with words?
>>
>>100398953
At the same time? When I read it, it was a sequential torrent of hits, and the last strike was not going to land on Berserker actually if not for plot armor.
>>
>>100399008
The easiest way to exchange words is with two fists
>>
>>100398953
Even Kuzu Ryu Sen never actually strikes at the same time.
>>
>>100399008
Think that was the point of the thread.

Personally, think Touma would break Fate Shirou's resolve, UBW Shirou is confident enough in his contradictions to not care, and HF Shirou and Touma literally can't argue, they're basically the same.
>>
>>100398926
He had to swing the sword across Berserker's body 8 times in the span of time it would have taken Berserker to bring down his sword once.

Obviously that means Shirou was swinging the blade at a far faster pace than Berserker. Maybe not close to Mach 40, but at a bare minimum he would be attacking at Mach 8 if you were to equalize the distance of Shirou's and Berserker's strikes.
>>
>>100398980

In the end, aren't they both just selfless do-gooders?
>>
>>100391625
Shirou wins by buffness alone. He's not at Archer levels but base Shirou is strong from archery.
>>
>>100399124
You don't even know when he started to swing that one single strike.
>bare minimum is times 8 of mach 1
top kek
>>
>>100399145
Not exactly, depends on Shirou's Route and which Touma you're using.

Pre-memory loss Touma just wants to be helpful somehow, he feels useless. Eventually he decides the best way to do that is to become a hero...then he dies.

Post-memory loss Touma doesn't care about being a hero and thinks they're unnecessary. He also doesn't really think in terms of Good and Evil according to Aiwass, he just does what he likes. He just happens to naturally do things that look like good from the viewpoint of others, but he himself isn't good.

Fate Shirou just wants to be a hero because of Kiritsugu's dream and being a mindbroken mess.

UBW Shirou wants to be a hero but recognizes that it won't be a perfect road and there will be contradictions.

And HF Shirou just wants to protect one person, Sakura. Or he goes Mind of Steel and wants to save as many people as possible in the most efficient manner.
>>
>>100399274
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5440/fate3841.png

Eat shit.
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>>100399271
It's not strong from Archery, rather the kid works out every morning and has a job that requires heavy lifting.

Also Archer is a notorious weight lifter, so old habits die hard.
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>>100399274
In order to hit eight times before Berserker can even hit once he would have to move eight times faster. that much is true enough.

Nine Lives is an attack on the level of Noble Phantasm as directly stated, so of course it can be a little bullshit as all NPs are.
>>
>>100399323
Huh?
>>
>>100399289

>he also doesn't really think in terms of Good and Evil according to Aiwass

Being a do-gooder isn't about what you think, its about what you do. Even if Touma doesn't think in terms of good and evil, that doesn't change the fact that the things he does are good and he does them for others (or even if its for himself, he does it because he naturally wants to help people). Also, doesn't he tell Vento point blank that she isn't living her life correctly by blaming science for her brother's death when her brother obviously chose to sacrifice himself for her willingly and would want her to be happy? He obviously has some kind of ethos - most 17 year old's do, even if it isn't clearly defined.
>>
>>100399469
>gay porn mag
>>
>>100399552
Shirou executes NLBW as Berserker begins his attack.

Unless you want to argue that Berserker stepped forward with his weapon raised up in the air to pose.
>>
>>100399545
Berserker was also getting hit. It's not like he would be striking at the same time a sword is blasting his head in. He gets reset when he gets hit in every other fight he is hit in.
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Will RYOUGI Shiki able to kill both of them?
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>>100399639
And? We still don't know when Berserker starts to swing out that strike.
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>>100399599
Part of his issue is that it's not clearly defined.

Against Acqua, Touma instinctively knew that he couldn't talk his way out of it and didn't even try. Acqua has a hard code that he's stuck to his whole life and Touma knew he couldn't do anything against that.

Then they're compared again in 18, where Villian calls them both mercenaries, with the difference that Touma has a weakness of not having a clear code like Acqua does.

His code is "Do whatever I want to do right now." He even says the same thing to Accelerator, telling him to destroy the whole world if he wanted to.

It's part of the whole "Aeon" business which is really complicated but basically means following someone else's rules is bullshit and the only proper route is doing your own thing.
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>>100399676
I like it when Tohno Shiki kills Ryougi Shiki in MBAA.
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>>100399715
The battle only took three seconds total, so it was either striking upon the three second mark or somewhere in the two second mark.
>>
>>100399599
Birdway asks him why he does what he does in NT 6. Read it if you like as it's a long conversation, but it basically boils down to "No one ever gave me a reason NOT to save people."
>>
>>100399784
The more I read these threads...

Three seconds total?
A human being can throw five punches per second. It's possible to swing a sword three times in a second.
You would expect beings that move at Mach speed to at least swing more than that.
>>
>>100399898
And that's why Touma can beat this bitches.
>>
>>100399898
Well there's also other things that happen, namely Ilya jumping in the way and making Berserker pause so Shirou can deliver the final blow.
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>>100399935
Eh, really boils down almost completely as to whether they know about and fully recognize the threat of IB.
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>>100399898
Three seconds including running time, and Shirou only attacked in the third second.

First two seconds and a half seconds were projection
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>>100400033
No, no. It was actually all the preparation happened in the first 2.99 seconds and the final strike happened in the last 0.01 second.
>>
Kamachi and Nasu need to write a collaboration story.

One where they just make a bunch of hax things and have them fight eachother in bullshit ways.
>>
>>100400033
But Berserker would have killed you in that time so I have no idea who you're trying to kid here. And you're expecting Ilya to move fast enough in half a second to stop Berserker from winning?
>>
>>100399898
Read it again; I said the entire battle took three seconds, not the strike took three seconds.
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>>100400259
Berserker was blind and weakened.
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>>100400277

>>100400259
>>
>>100400259
She was already getting out of the hole as the battle started, but he only noticed her near the end of the third second. She even said she got out of the hole at almost the same time at Shirou but hesitated for a split second that cost her his life basically.
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>>100400287
It doesn't matter. The guy was still Mach 1 at speed and Ilya still managed to interject herself in the fight.
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>>100400249
I would make like two bags of popcorn and read the shit out of that. That would be a trainwreck worth seeing, to be sure.
>>
>>100400336
>noticed her
>but then uses the blindness to say berserker wouldn't strike at the very slow prep for the attack
Why do people even like to joke like this?
>>
Tohno Shiki can kill everything so you guys should really stop this powerlevel bullshit.
>>
Is there anyone in anime that base their ideals and "morals" around logic? All these so called moralfags are nothing more than appeal to emotion and we all know how bad it is to appeal to emotion just look at Africa and/or America and see the wasteland it has become.
>>
>>100400407
Notice does not mean see.

Surprise, surprise.
>>
>>100400465
Mind of Steel Shirou and Kiritsugu kind of count.

Kill a small amount of people to save a larger amount of people.
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>>100400467
>notice little girl from a distance
>not noticing a slowass buildup of prana right in front of you and the strikes of a large ass weapon

Surprise, surprise.
>>
>>100400465
>Is there anyone in anime that base their ideals and "morals" around logic?
Katsuragi Keima?
>>
HF Shirou projects Rule Breaker and it clashes with IB, what happens?
>>
>>100400721
In Berserker's mind he was still fighting Alter that entire time, of course he noticed the prana build up

Shirou said that when he used prana Berserker noticed him which is what started the three second count down. No shit, he can feel mana which is how he was going to attack Shirou there, and how he noticed Ilya.
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>>100400721
He did notice. He was about to kill Shirou before he noticed Ilya and, for one reason or another, stopped.
>>
>>100400788
Pretty sure IB wins. Othinus is a universe-fucker and she can't destroy IB, she needs to try to force Touma to do it for her. It's basically a universal constant with it's "Reference Point" thing.
>>
>>100400721
He did notice. He was about to kill Shirou before, for one reason or another, he noticed Ilya and stopped.
>>
>>100400813
>>100400899
Then why do you guys keep using the durr he's blind that's why he didn't strike first during that long charge time, when he was going to win in one strike if not for Ilya butting in?
>>
>>100400864
Why is Touma such plot powered?
>>
>>100401231
>Not accepting Touma's baseness into your life
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>>100401189
There was no longass charge time, the entire battle was three seconds, not everyone is arguing the same thing here, but by the time Berserker made it to Shirou in order to strike once Shirou retaliated first with eight strikes and was about to finish it off with the ninth strike before Berserker who was still tanking the pain finally launched his first strike. It was literally said in the text that Berserker noticed Shirou's prana and was gunning fo him, but it wasn't some longass load time move.
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>>100401385
Berserker's first strike was still about to finish Shirou off as mentioned, but Shirou was noted to be faster in the initial. It's just that being faster doesn't mean shit when you're less durable.
>>
>>100391625
Touma would kick his ass
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>>100401446
Nah. Beginning of the series Touma would get his ass kicked. Current Touma would probably beat Fate Shirou but UBW Shirou and HF Shirou would beat him (unless he hit HF's Archer Arm).
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>>100401502
The arm is melded to his body now, it's literally flesh and blood rather than being made out of magic or something.
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can someone please post the appreciate touma image
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>>100401969
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>>100400769

Keima uses logic - his ideals are the opposite of logic.
>>
Touma beats magicians all day. Shirou would win in a nonmagical fist fight though.
>>
Can Touma correct Sakura's way of living or he'll be devoured by the educated prostitute?
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>>100402888
Well, he needs to touch the source.

So nekked time.
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>Reminder that this is going to bite Biri in the ass if she enrolls in Touma's school
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>>100391625
We had this thread last year and the general consensus was that they'd be bros. Shirou is mindbroken to only get pleasure from saving others at the expense of his life while Touma is insane and helps ANYONE that needs his help as long as he sees goodness in them.

The only issue might be HF Shirou since he would put Sakura on top, but even then their ideals are still very similar. I'd be inclined to think they'd argue over on who gets to sacrifice their life for whom if they were both in a life or death situation.
>>
>>100400864
This. If this were the Nasuverse, IB would be connected to Akasha as a constant, or at least be on the level of Celestials like Acrueid and ORT.
>>
>>100402810
Eh. Toss up. Touma knows how to fight. But Shirou definitely has a more trained body.
Well, depends if you pick Shirou after training with Saber and such.
>>
>>100393608
>>100393701
This would be amazing.
I never realized how much potential crossovers with these two universes have.
>>
>>100391932
Ea shatters the world marble, can Touma re-create the world?

I mean, can he undo effects created by powers because they were caused by something?
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>>100405292
IB was actually specifically created to remake the world/universe if something fucks it up.

Well, according to Ollerus. Who turns out to not be all that reliable, but he was probably straight up about this.
>>
>>100404459
Shirou did loads of training even before the grail war.
I don't think a few days of training on top of a lifetime of it is going to change much, especially considering that was sword training.
>>
>>100404459
I think Shirou of any route can beat Touma, with HF having the biggest risk with the constant magic making it possible for Touma to OHKO him(probably).

Even at the end of Fate, where he's at his least skilled comparatively, he could match multiple Dragon Tooth Warriors and has pretty good instincts already.

But more than that, Shirou is a big eater who constantly makes extravagant meals. He'll just be healthier and have that much more stamina in a fist fight.

Boxers can attest to a diets affect to that.
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>>100405847
>Makes extravagant meals daily

Why can't Touma just live with Shirou? Poor guy doesn't even have anything good left in his life anymore
>>
>>100398063

Fuck the world, save the bitch isn't exactly a new or unique thing.
>>
>>100406020
If Touma tries to live Shirou, Index will come along. I doubt Shirou's finances can support Seiba and Index's food consumption.
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>>100406137
Plus it's too good a gig and Touma's luck will probably get his house burned down.
>>
>>100405592
Shirou never trained in martial arts or weapons though, just honed his body whereas Touma has actually gotten into fights. Remember that it took Archer an eternity to get Eye of Mind.
>>
>>100406175
Actually he used to get into fights as a kid since he was beating up bullies, though that doesn't compare to Touma's experience in streetfighting
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>>100406175
He trained with Kiritsugu as a kid and Taiga a bit, but until the grail war he had very little actual experience yeah.

Though he does have a pretty good tactical head when he's cool and calm, like with Lancer in the yard.
>>
>>100406252
>grumpy shota Shirou running around yelling "Bad things are baaaad!"
Hnngggggg
>>
>>100406252
I recall his bully hunter days as just a few fights with bullies. At least, it was nothing compared to Touma and his streetfighting.
>>
>>100406546
Pretty sure Touma's streetfighting consisted of punching a couple guys in the face then running away when all their buddies show up.

I mean at the start of the series Touma gets us an explicit layout of his skills. 1vs1 he's fine, 2vs1 he's nervous, 3vs1 he's running the hell away.

He's much more skilled by NT 7, but I wouldn't say those years of streetfighting have much to do with it, that was more survival than anything else.
>>
I think Shirou would win simply because of his pain threshold being way beyond human limits.

Like, he doesn't pass out from the pain of having Berserker tear his torso in two, he stays awake for a minute before passing out due to blood loss.

Rider beat his ass black and blue and he just kept on getting back up.
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>>100406718
My first thought is always the Heaven's Feel Kotomine fist-fight while his body is literally tearing itself apart from the inside.
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>>100406718
Touma's got some insane pain tolerance as well though. Izzard chopped off his arm and according to Stiyl he just got high off the pain and scared the shit out of Izzard. In 18 he broke every bone in his right arm, and then sprinted across London right afterwards to get to Carissa.

And then there's the Accel fight.
>>
>>100406616
Have you ever fought in real life? The knowledge of fighting 1v1 will take you very, VERY far against opponents like Shirou whose only experience are theoretical training and playground fights. Touma has what it takes to streetfight and the #1 rule of fighting is to never fight more than 2 people.. if you HAVE to fight two people, then there's an entirely different method of fighting you should follow if you want to win.

I've heard countless stories of past street urchins beating up brown belt karatega with no actual fighting experience. As a 3rd dan myself, I can confidently say that Touma has a large edge on Shirou.
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>>100406718
It's not like Touma hasn't gone through some horrible shit himself, guy was practically like a human corpse after Acqua was done with him, and the guy can keep conscious whenever someone rips off his arm
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>>100406718
I think that Shirou does have a higher threshold, but Touma is no slouch himself. The Accel fight shows that Touma can keep going until the fight is over.
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>>100406817
Don't forget his mental fortitude is on par with Shirou's mind broken chase after an ideal. Touma lived through like a year of constant loops of psychological and physical torture and the only difference is that he doesn't smile anymore. Dude's like Archer.
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>>100406817
Yeah, that was some shit.

Acqua basically breaks the dude, the picks him up and hurls him over the speed of sound, skipping across the water a few times, until he makes a huge spout and lands.

He gets up a few hours later and walks across the city to rejoin the fight.

Plus NT 6 has him get out of the hospital a few hours after being shot and run around fighting a bunch of people.
>>
If it's not immediately fatal, Shirou won't even bother thinking about it.

Though that's not a good thing, since he really is an idiot.
>>
>>100406935
I remember being disturbed during that scene, but for some reason this screencap is just hilarious.

But yeah, Shirou would most likely die before passing out from pain.
>>
>>100406935
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT
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>>100392687
So its a battle of quality (Shirou) vs quantity (Touma)?
>>
>>100407051
10032's sense of humor beats all i'm pretty sure.

Except for maybe Rider's hips.
>>
>>100407051
They both have some great girls, so it's hard to decide.
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>>100407051
Touma's harem isn't really as large as people think (not counting the Sisters). Most of the girls that are counted are moderately to not at all interested.

Only ones that are really in are Itsuwa, Mikoto, Index, Birdway, Othinus, Will, and Sisters. And maybe Kanzaki.
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UBW Shirou wins pretty easily because of having a ton of Archer's strength flow into him and HF Shirou wrecks so hard I don't even want to talk about it. Touma might be able to beat Fate Shirou though
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>>100407158
Fate Shirou at the end of his life even Dude was as ripped as Guts.
>>
>>100407143
We really shouldn't count Will-chan and Othinus until NT9 comes out, and Birdway only wants an onii-chan

And you forgot Himegami...
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>>100407238
>until NT9 comes out
Gets translated rather
>>
Do the wonderlolis count into Shirou's harem?
>>
>>100407238
Does anyone even bother remembering Himegami at this point? She has been rendered perma-irrelevant.
>>
>>100407299
She'll be back.

Eventually. I believe in the Exe.
>>
>>100407292
I'm almost very sad that Touma will never join Shiki and Shirou in Carnival Phantasm.
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>>100407009
He then shits a sword.
>>
>>100407332
*honestly
>>
>>100407174
I need to reread Fate route I don't remember much beside Shirou avaloning his way through every fight
>>
>>100407352
"Fuji-nee's cooking, never again!"
>>
>>100407332
>Nasu will never write a sidestory Raildex novel for Kamachi like Narita
>Kamachi will never write a sidestory Type-Moon novel like Urobutcher
>Nasu and Kamachi will never do a round robin crossover novel featuring their characters in increasingly crazy situations just for shits and giggles
>>
>Male protagonists know how to cook (Shiki as well)
>Have a unique ability that allows them to punch well above their weight
>Historical/mythological figures swap genders
>Large amounts of hax
>Assortment of girls
Really the only difference between Kamachi and Nasu is that Kamachi made his protagonist poor.
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>>100407481
Maybe their the same person.
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>>100407548
WHAT A TWEEEEEEEEEST
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>>100392439
>according to Terra it's much weaker than it should be and Touma isn't using it right
I'll break that illusion of yours!
>>
>>100392899
Raildex and Nasuverse are both my favorite properties. I love sandbox settings with massive casts of likeable characters.
>>
>>100407367
No, I mean in the manga. Shirou lived his life his own way and became ripped and battle hardened.
>>
>>100407931
Post pics?

I thought the translations had barely gotten to Gil.
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>>100394652
I think he'd have to destroy the head and the heart, that's where the spiritual cores of a Servant are located.
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>>100391625
No matter how much Shirou keeps projecting swords, Touma can keep destroying them.

Conversely, no matter how much Touma destroys Shirou's swords, Shirou can keep making more.

The more Shirou fights, the more Touma can learn his movements and outmaneuver him with his precognition.

Conversely, the more Touma fights, the more Shirou can learn his movements and outmaneuver him with Eye of the Mind from Archer.

If Touma damages Shirou enough, he'll end up trying to punch a guy that's made of swords and cut himself to death.

If Shirou damages Touma enough, he'll end up cutting off Touma's right hand and have to fight a dragon.
>>
>>100408145
>If Touma damages Shirou enough, he'll end up trying to punch a guy that's made of swords and cut himself to death.

My knowledge on the subject is weak, but won't those be magic swords?
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>>100408145
>No matter how much Shirou keeps projecting swords, Touma can keep destroying them.

That's assuming he can block all the swords with just his fuck-you arm. The rest of his body is perfectly vulnerable to stabbing.
>>
>>100408145
Well, on Touma's side there, Shirou has a limited amount of mana, plus Touma's not going to cut himself on a magic sword, he'll just break it.

On Shirou's side, he'd have to cut off the right hand/arm specifically (which might seem like a decent idea to him). Killing Touma by stabbing him in the heart won't release shit.
>>
>>100408202
His hand still gets cut from magic swords, Vol 2 against Izzard Dummy shows it
>>
>>100408202
IB can't negate souls and origin is tied directly to them, so i doubt it.
>>
>>100408202
It's projecting swords inside the body so yeah. But Touma would never expect it and even if he did, punching only with his Imagine Breaker would make him very readable
>>
I think IB can defend against Gae Bolg but only if IB is already placed over the heart before the NP activates.
IB would work by preventing Gae Bolg's curse from affecting the heart. What do you think?
>>
>>100408145
Couldn't Shirou just make a bow and shoot Touma from afar with? A non-magical bow like the one he made in Fate route to shoot at Berserker.

Hell, wouldn't Shirou be able to just smack his shit? He used to go around telling people that what they were doing was wrong and then proceeded to punch them in the face.
>>
>>100408248
Pretty sure that's just early-installment weirdness, as that never happens later when Touma breaks other magic weapons (including fucking obsidian).
>>
>>100408297
Shirou did that when he was a kid, Touma has way more experience at streetfighting due to how shitty his everyday life is
>>
>>100408244
Touma can block a storm of swords, he's done it several times (once against Fiamma and a few times against Birdway). He destroys some of the swords in such a way that they block or throw off the aim of the other swords.
>>
>>100408316
Was he punching the sharp parts of those weapons though?
>>
>>100408248
I think IB works inconsistently over the series. I'm not sure how to treat it in a powerlevels debate.
>>
>>100408297
Depends. If he makes a bow it'll still count as magic, but it won't matter as long as he uses normal arrows.

If he makes the arrows though, they'll just get IBed.
>>
>>100398465
Why is TouDAD at the top? Is it a joke, or is there something I missed?
>>
>>100408329
Shirou gets free combat experience via the memory of the swords he uses, though. So combat experience doesn't get to play that much of a part.
>>
>>100408262
That's basically how he fights mages though. He doesn't use his left hand because being readable is better than being killed if he touches the wrong thing.
>>
>>100408255
Souls aren't magic, they're just an inherent part of the universe like IB is. The swords that Shirou project are just a form of true magic and are susceptible.
>>
>>100408409
The weapon moves on its own, the only weapon he's good at is Kanshou and Bakuya due to his connection to Archer
>>
>>100408409
He doesn't get combat memory as much as his swords going on autocruise. Said swords don't know how to fight against a magic negating hand, so if Touma smartens up and just blocks everything with IB, Shirou would run out of juice.
>>
>>100408360
Way it's described here.

>The magician wanted to release the Spear, but Kamijou’s fist was faster. Kamijou’s right hand impacted the obsidian knife. Maybe Imagine Breaker had worked, as the obsidian knife turned to powder with a sound like glass breaking.

and

>After flying over 30 meters through the air, Kamijou Touma’s fist struck Curtana Original.

>With that one strike, that sword that determined the king shattered.

and

>While in an awkward position after swinging his upper body around, he forcibly swung his fist and destroyed one of the many remaining blades. The chain reaction of destruction and impacts with fragments opened up a slight safe area just like with the downpour of water blades.
>>
>>100408246
If it's NP swords, Shirou has a fairly low limit.

Regular mundane swords however are dirt cheap.
>>
>>100408255
Here's a counter-argument.
Origins may be natural but IB still can prevent the origin from producing physical effects in reality and negate the physical effects of an origin. The swords would either disappear or reform to bone or both.
>>
>>100408481
Well Caliburn was running on autopilot, but in the latter parts of UBW, K&B weren't. I think. It's been years since I played the game.
>>
>>100408532
Origin and Reality Marbles and such are basically just Esper powers anyways, and we know IB works on those.
>>
>>100408496
Well I doubt he always punched the center in that last one, so this was something Kamachi straightened out later on
>>
Would Avalon break the moment Shirou gets even a glancing blow from IB?
>>
>>100408579
Yes, his fist broke Curtana after all

Which I'm still mad at since that blade was awesome as fuck
>>
>>100408579
You mean when it's inside Shirou? Shouldn't. Touma would need direct contact with Avalon more than likely.

Shirou would lose the ability to use magic while Touma is touching him though, it was shown with Thor.
>>
>>100408579
Avalon the sheath would probably break.

Avalon the shield effect disregards Touma and proceeds to be the Ever Distant Utopia and not give a fuck.
>>
>>100408608
Oh wait, misunderstood that question, as long as Shirou's flesh is blocking Touma's fist, then it should be safe
>>
>>100408579
Actually, can IB break through Avalon at all?
Avalon doesn't work by providing an actual barrier to tank damage, it works by removing the user to the fairy dimension so the attack will not reach the user. Like a vacuum preventing the passage of sound, it doesn't stop the sound by being super tough or super insulating, it stops the sound by being utterly alien to the concept of sound. So would IB reach at all?
>>
>>100408678
>>100408647
>Ever Distant Utopia
>attack will not reach
Sure didn't help Pendex when she cast St. George's Sanctuary to multiply the distance between her and IB to infinity.
>>
>>100407299
I do. She's one of my favorite characters so the fact that she basically fell off the earth after volume 10 kinda hurts.
>>
>>100408678
Touma has broken through dimensions before, in volume 8 and NT 4.

>>100395979
>>
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>>100408718
>multiply distance
That's nice.

Have some does not exist and is untouchable even to parallel reality magic.
>>
>>100408718
That's what Izzard did. St. George's Sanctuary just isolates her in space.
>>
>>100407299
Some day there will be a vampire in the story and Himegami will be remembered.
>>
>>100408744
>BINK!!!

>Pitch black cracks were ripped from what should be empty space.

>And then, from there.

>A certain boy's right hand shot out.

>"Tch!"

>Marian Slingeneyer's face changed for the first time as she showed an obvious anxious look. She had such a powerful sword. Even with a sword with such power, the boy's right hand was grabbing onto Marian's hand that was holding onto the sword. She seemed to be wary that her weapon was about to be taken as she frantically waved her hand and pulled her distance back from the black crack drastically.

>"… I finally caught up."

>The boy's voice came from the swinging hand.

>"It may be too late, and it took me a lot of time to get in here. Even so, I've caught up to you, Gremlin. You told me the coordinates of this distorted space you created. Since I've caught up, I won't let you do as you please. My right hand has the destructive power to destroy what you control."

>The black crack expanded.

>Something seemed to be looking over from there.

>"That's the line. Up 'till now, it's all been a world managed by your rules."

>It expanded, expanded, expanded.

>It seemed as if it wanted to deny something, that it wanted to topple the premise.

>"So now."

>He took a step forward from the crack that had increasingly opened.

>And he clearly stepped into this world.

>"Now, we're going to finish things by my rules!!!"


>Kamijou Touma appeared.

>Immediately after, all the other cracks that were embedded shattered.

>It was as if...

>It was as if everything Kumokawa Maria had witnessed up to this point was just a grand illusion.
>>
Should I watch Index and then follow up with the novels or just straight out start with the novels?
>>
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>>100408977
>It was as if everything Kumokawa Maria had witnessed up to this point was just a grand illusion.
>Illusion
>>
>>100409009
Just start with the novels
>>
>>100409009
read the LNs, they're a lot better
>>
>>100409048
Most things get called illusions.

>The boy who was running up this most ridiculous shortcut ever conceived wasn’t holding any weapons. He didn’t look like he had any amazing ability. However, he continued to dash up without any fear. He clenched his right fist as hard as rock as he headed towards the obviously abnormal space.

>The distortion of the space reached its maximum less than a second later, cracking from inside.

>At that moment, the boy swung his fist without any hesitation.

>The abnormality seemed to be some sort of illusion. Though Musujime’s attack was powerful, it didn’t bring the sense of reality.

>A mass of 4,520kg.

>The boy’s fist formed a terrifying hammer as it slammed at the huge mass.

>BAM!! The boy’s fist hit the middle.

>The boy gritted his teeth. His fist ignored the change in space as it moved forward.

>An amazing thing happened.

>Suddenly, a sound of steel being hit could be heard. The originally distorted space seemed to be flattened by the boy’s fist. The invisible thing that refracted the light seemed like it had been punched far away.

>For a three-dimensional object to do a forced intervention on the eleventh-dimension spatial axis; Shirai, who had mastered these calculations, understood very well that this was like driving up the wrong way on a one-way road.
>>
How would Shirou's traced NP's work on Raildex-verse work anyway since there's no Gaia to enforce copyright infringement laws?
>>
>>100409169
Creation cost the same, no degradation over time.
>>
>>100409169
IB is basically what's supposed to do that in Raildex (it returns everything to the way the world is supposed to work, which is without Esper and Magical fuckery).

As long as he never meets Touma he probably wouldn't have to worry about it.
>>
>>100409169
It wouldn't work because magic in Raildex works from making spell arrays, and using tools and ingredients rather than just imagining things
>>
>>100409211
>Creation cost the same
I don't even think a single Raildex mage has complained of low MP or magic circuits blowing out their blood vessels the way a TM magus would.
>>
>>100409234
It's not the same magic as in FSN either, it's bringing out things that exist within him.

He's an esper in Raildex as far as I understand.
>>
>>100409169
Useless question since Shirou's tracing itself is deeply rooted in Nasuverse rules
>>
I always found it funny the idea of how a normal person is more dangerous to a character than someone relying on superpowers.
>>
>>100409259
Stiyl does. Innocentius is way too strong for him to actually be using it. It's why he turns useless once he uses it, it burns up all his mana.

He has to get some special items to summon three of them later to make up for that.

But besides that, it's just Grimoires you have to worry about. That shit will eat you.
>>
>>100409306
In that sense Archer's arm is a grimoire of sorts for Shirou.
>>
>>100409259
Raildex mages are normal people, though. FSN magi have an inborn quality(circuits) that allows them to manipulate their Od.

In comparison, FSN magi have extra organs and limbs which they use for magecraft.

Sacraments are a different thing, though.
>>
>>100409281
Basically. Espers work by having a distorted view of the world, which brings forth their powers. They change the laws of physics and make tiny changes in probability on a extremely tiny level to cause their powers to come into existence.

It's like the bastard child of a Reality Marble and Marble Phantasm basically.
>>
>>100409371
>They change the laws of physics and make tiny changes in probability on a extremely tiny level to cause their powers to come into existence
That's more Marble Phantasm than Reality Marble. It's like a Marble Phantasm that's stuck on a single setting.
>>
>>100409407
I love it how in the black and white marbles metaphor, Reality Marbles are essentially someone going "Fuck your marbles!" and taking a can of paint and dumping it into the marble pouch so they're all the same color.
>>
>>100409321
Grimoires just want you to spread their knowledge basically. They can tell whose a "Reader" and is willing to take and spread their knowledge, and who isn't a Reader. If you're not a reader, they just kill you. If you are, they kill you slower (the more you read the slower you die, but eventually you run out of shit to read and you're screwed).
>>
>>100391998
I don't know what to say to this, but I've lost my shit.
>>
>>100392596
>Gunha
>Not Thor
What is this crap?
>>
>>100409547
Thor just wants Touma for his Exp.

Gunha can love him for his Guts.
>>
I always found it funny how Touma is 1 cm taller than Shirou. The art style makes Touma seem like a manlet and Shirou like a decently tall guy.
>>
>>100409547
I doubt it ends in sex since Touma has nothing to offer Shirou, no sharp pointy thing = no sexings.

Kanzaki on the other hand has that sword and we know Shirou loves pointy things to the point he takes it to the heart.
>>
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>>100409660
>Shirou loves pointy things to the point he takes it to the heart.
>>
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>>100409636
Touma was less Bishy in volume 1.
>>
Which Nasuverse character would Touma say that is living correctly?
>>
>>100409660
If Shirou projected Shichiten Shichitou would it be a Noble Phantasm?

>>100409848
Gunha
>>
>>100409848
HF Shirou, Rider (zero), Issei maybe?
>>
>>100409848
Mikiya
>>
>>100409848
No named characters that's for sure
>>
>>100409902
The sword itself isn't anything special (I mean it's magic, but it's just got standard "Don't break and cut through shit" spells on it). It's the spells she casts through it that are special.

Yuisen would be very decent for Shirou. Anti-God spell would have helped him against Hercules and Gil...
>>
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>>100409848
Caren.

>>100409902
No, but it's still a powerful sword, right?
>>
>>100409956
Kanzaki's body was getting wrecked from using that shit, Shirou would be shredded to pieces if he tried
>>
>>100391625
Shirou cooks for Indeksu.
Shirou traces überrare Gekota merch for Biribiri.

Touma is foreveralone.

Fukou da.

Touma uses IB on Rin's bitchyness and Sakura's sluttiness so it isn't all bad.
>>
>>100409965
She casts a spell on it based off of trees getting more layers over time. It makes it so it becomes stronger over time as "layers" are added.

It's strong enough to resist Acqua's strikes anyways.
>>
>>100410002
So load that bitch on a bow and fire it as a projectile.

The sword I mean, not Kanzaki.
>>
>>100410002
It isn't Yuisen that does that, it's her using her Saint strength to it's full potential.
>>
>>100410049
That was Itsuwa, silly goose.
Then again Kanzaki is the pontiff of that group so she should know about it as well
>>
>>100410049
Shichiten Shichitou doesn't have any legends or fame attached to it? Then it wouldn't count as an NP.
>>
>>100410092
Itsuwa used it first, but I swear Kanzaki mentioned at some point that she uses the same spell.
>>
>>100410002
Shirou strengthens himself when tracing to be able to use the weapons like their original wielder.
Albeit with one rank down.
>>
>>100410083
Vol 4's translations were pretty confusing over the Saints, and Yuisen business, I hope Jsbro fixes that volume one day
>>
>>100410121
If she was getting fucked, then he probably will get doubly so. He also doesn't have saint's body.
>>
>>100410121
The one rank down thing was only ever explicitly applied to full expansion of UBW reality marble, wasn't it?
>>
>>100410121
Funny thing is, Saints are waaaay stronger and faster than they are durable. They have to use special spells and such to increase their durability to the point that they can handle it, and if they go beyond 20% of their max power they start ripping their bodies to shreds.
>>
>>100410166
I think it's any tracing, which is why Archer usually uses his tracings as Broken Phantasms because that gives them +1.
>>
>>100410166
Projections suffer from degradation, though the one rank down seems to be for stuff they don't use to often.

Kanshou and Bakuya only get a - modifier.
>>
Could Kanzaki beat Primate Murder?
>>
>>100410288
She's still human even if she's a Saint, so no.

If she gets the chance I don't think it'll like Yuisen very much at all, but it probably won't kill it.
>>
>>100410288
I really doubt it, I'd pay for a match between Carissa and Primate Murder though
>>
>>100408579
I don't think so, but Avalon is pointless without Saber, so even if it did break, it shouldn't be a problem.
>>
Could Touma beat Ado Edem?
>>
>>100410415
No

Better question, can Acqua beat Berserker in an armwrestling match?
>>
>>100410415
Nah, he's at least Saint-tier.
>>
>>100410121
Nah sword goes into auto-mode and Shirou goes for the ride. Caliburn was too much for Shirou to handle and only Avalon saved him from getting his arm torn apart
>The senses in my arms are already gone. My wrist is about to rip off as I can see the red meat. "Kuh…!" My legs won't move. All my muscles must have stopped working. I can't stand up. I made the sword that surpasses Berserker. But that's all. As I am only a maker, I cannot handle the sword!
>>
>>100408558
Would UBW get dispelled as soon as it encompasses or even touches IB then?
>>
>>100410455
Feat-wise Acqua is superior, Hype-wise Berserker is supposed to be able to cut mountains in half and lift the sky.
>>
>>100410652
No clue. Touma doesn't stop Esper powers from working just from being nearby, but he does destroy AIM on contact.

You need to hit the source though, so my best guess is that it'd make UBW a huge drain on Shirou to maintain, but it wouldn't destroy it unless he hits Shirou.
>>
>>100410612
This. The reason why HF Shirou didn't die when replicating NL was because he was using Archer's arm, so he could replicate the stone sword's strength.
>>
>>100410728
That's not completely true, he can replicate the strength on his own but not the Nine Lives NP.

He blocks Berserker once with a copy of the axesword to save Ilya before taking the shroud off. Though he gets his shit slapped and the axesword breaks, he still matched Berserker for two strikes.
>>
>>100410415
Probably not. But could Shirou trace Slash Emperor?
>>
>>100410676
>Feat-wise Acqua is superior
I'm not familiar with him. Can you post some examples because Zerker got A+ in Str which is 100x average human strength.
>>
>>100410864
I highly doubt it.

Or maybe, but only it's ability to grow to a certain degree, limiting its potential.

No continent sized swords for Shirou.
>>
>>100410895
I'm pretty sure it's Peak Human ability, not just average.
>>
>>100410772
I really like that scene, the music and the tension made left an impression in me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3PMkcayExI&hd=1
>>
Could Shiki see lines of death on Imagine Breaker?
>>
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>>100410975
>Being ranked at 1 under the system identifies the ability of a normal human, so the E Rank, classified as 10, indicates someone ten times above normal human ability
>>
>>100411052
Which Shiki?
>>
>>100410895
Sure. First Kanzaki, a much weaker saint, was able to swing around 5 giant mobile fortresses at once and use them as a giant morningstar. Got calced at 24000 tons and she did it casually while injured.

He's also got good destructive feats, with one serious strike from him completely wrecking Kanzaki despite her putting up every barrier she could and also destroying everything in a 100 meter radius with the same attack.

His battle with KL was sending out massive shockwaves that was crumbling cliff faces and generally wrecking the area.
>>
>>100398301

Nothing is impossible to that man
>>
>>100411052
Of course he can. He can see death of everything.
>>
>>100410772
>he can replicate the strength on his own
Nope. The best he can do is get the weapon to replicate its motions and stats and he just goes along for the ride.
>>
>>100411286
Which is different because?

Hitting something with X amount of force is hitting something with X amount of force.
>>
>>100410895
Unless Berserker can compete with 30000~ tons, he ain't beating Acqua in an arm wrestling match.
>>
>>100411314
>Which is different because?
Because one would normally destroy your arm in the process (Caliburn anyone?) and the other would be your own strength destroying people instead.
>>
>>100411104
Got a link to that calc?
I'm interested to see it
>>
>>100411352
Caliburn is Shirou's first projection in the route where he still needs a full minute to project anything. It's a bad example.

In UBW he can smash NPs freely and in HF he contends with Berserker and Saber Alter with his projections.
>>
>>100411496
Sure thing.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21199
>>
>>100411286
That doesn't explain how he can lift Berserker's Axesword, though.
>>
>>100411555
Thank you, and damn if that calc is true then I've really been underestimating Kanzaki, I blame it on all the jobbing she keeps doing in the main series
>>
>>100411326
Power doesn't get any feats in FSN, as far as I know.

There's stuff like Saber batting aside a mach 16 arrow at B strength, but that's gonna be a bitch to try and make sense out of.
>>
>>100411604
Well if you think about it, she was cutting apart Gabriel's wings, which we know casually smash apart mountains.

Albeit she was shredding her body doing it and I think using Yuisen.
>>
>>100411534
>It's a bad example.
No, it really isn't. The method of projection remains the same in all routes you pleb.

>In UBW he can smash NPs freely
That's because Gil is shit and in HF he has Archer's arm to supercharge him.
>>
>>100411599
>"It's not Shirou's fault. Archer's influencing his mind as well as his body.
>That's why his body's so tough. He thought he could handle that drop the way Archer could."
>>
>>100411710
And the level is completely different.

Shirou goes from "One minute per projection" at the end of Fate to "Five seconds per sword" in UBW for example.

>>100411730
But he's still completely human, Kotomine is faster than he is.
>>
>>100410612
>>100411286
Samefag.
>>
>>100411833
>And the level is completely different.
You're still avoiding the point that projection doesn't innately change the user's strength in any way. The only way Shirou progressed was being able to do it quicker and with less mental strain.

I'm ending this discussion here unless you can get a citation that shows he himself gains the strength of the weapon.

That hyperbole from HF doesn't count either, since you would also have to take Shirou saying that he can move as fast as light at face value as well.

Good night.
>>
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>>100411710
>Gil is shit
B strength completely matched.

Also, there's that line about how Archer's blows are equal to one of Berserker's and then Shirou blocks one of those.
>>
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>>100411833
>But he's still completely human
Not really
>It's not possible for a human to run at almost fifty kilometers per hour through this terrain.
>My left arm throbs. It feels like my left arm expanded beneath the cloth.
>…This is probably what Ilya was talking about. Archer's battle experience isn't the only thing flowing into me. His physical abilities are flowing into me now. An overdose of strength-enhancing drugs. The poison seeps into my body, letting me demonstrate abilities beyond my limits.
And that before he taken off the shroud
>>
>>100411955
The arm doesn't change the rest of him, it just reinforces with skills that Archer possessed.
>>
>>100412012
>His physical abilities are flowing into me now.
And that's why he was able to lift Berserker's Axesword. The end
>>
>>100412122
Reinforcement.
>>
>>100411951
Fate doesn't make any sense. Didn't Nasu say that servants fighting at the speed of sound or above, but then literally every human, magus or not, can fucking see them fighting clearly?

I'm inclined to think stats don't matter unless it's MAG.
>>
>>100412158
Call it wherever you want. He could lift Berserker's Axesword because Archer arm
>>
>>100412160
Shirou at the start can see Rin standing on top of a skyscraper just by focusing.

Magi eyes are sharper.
>>
>>100412160

There was something about Rin not being able to track the Lancer/Archer battle in the prologue, if memory serves. Shirou gets away with it because reinforcement bullshit.
>>
>>100412160
Shirou has the eyes and nose of a bloodhound, don't use him as a comparison point
>>
>>100412321
Err meant to write eyes of an owl there
>>
>>100412160
>can fucking see them fighting clearly?
It's not they see them clearly
>I can't understand. I can't follow them with my eyes.
>My brain does not work properly, faced with their impossible movements. But the clang of their weapons tells me they are trying to kill each other.
>>
>>100412422
*not like they can
>>
>>100412256
What about Caster's master?
>>
>>100412160
People like Shirou and Kirei aren't every human
>>
>>100412649
He's a trained assassin+Caster buffing him.
>>
>>100412649
Well that dude ain't normal he was wrecking Saber's shit in terms of fighting technique, all he needed was Caster's support to inflict meaningful damage to her.
>>
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Well, I tried finding some strength feats for Shirou that don't involve the arm, but the best I could find was against Gil.

It does state that its Shirou swinging and that he's breaking NP's.
>>
>>100412838
In Fate he was strong enough to cut off Berserker's arm without Saber's assistance.
>>
>>100412838
I'm pretty sure they breaking because some resonance between original NP and its copy
>>
What Happen if Alesteir Crowley goes into the Nasuverse?
>>
>>100413036
Never been mentioned and if it did exist it would be in favor of the original.
>>
Tracing recreates the strength, but Shirou needs to have his "My body is made out of blades" epiphany to make use of it.

He went from "Kanshou and Bakuya are reeling me around like crazy, I mean holy shit!" to "My body reacts".

Yeah, it's his swords, but he is his swords so it is him.
>>
>>100413246
Zelretch wrecks his shit.
>>
Can Shiki kill demonbane?
>>
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>>100394211
>Touma
>E rank luck
>finally Lancer meets his match.
>>
>>100415111
E rank is still supposedly ten times greater than average.
Touma would have G rank luck, if anything.
>>
>>100408145
wat dragon?
>>
>>100414977
Shiki can kill anything breh
>>
>>100415497
The one in his arm. You know, the one that wasn't supposed to be in there during the fight with the Alchemist.
>>
>>100415608
The Invisible Thing looking like a dragon was Izzard's crazy reality warping's fault, it's just invisible in all its other appearances
>>
>>100395136

God, I'll never forget how bad the Anime made him look.
>>
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>>100391625
>>
>>100391625

Whoever wins, we lose.
>>
>>100391625
Lets see if Reigen can knock sense into those two.
>>
>>100411326
Then it's probably a good thing Herc is known for having temporarily taken over Atlas' job since the 12 labors are canon.
>>
Oh good, a semi-TM related thread.

Quick question - how vital is it to go through every Tsukihime Route? I've just finished it for the first time Arcueid True and would love to play through the other routes but there's no skip button so it's putting me off heavily.
>>
>>100420847
Arc and Ciel's routes unlock Akiha's and Hisui's, and Hisui's route unlocks Kohaku's
>>
>>100391625
I never noticed how similar those two are, now I understand why they are my least favorite MCs ever.
Still, Touma isnt nearly as bad as "hurr durr my dream is to be a super hero" fucking Shirou is.
>>
>>100420909
Fucking hell. So what's the plan, just hit the skip to next choice button and watch anime until it's caught up? Is there any way to avoid reading through everything I've already read?
>>
>>100421095
Just go straight to Akiha's or Hisui's route, the Far Side Routes (Akiha Hisui Kohaku) are pretty different from the Near Side ones, there's a formerly major character you won't meet in those routes for example
>>
>>100421257
Yeah alright. I'll get to it, thanks anon
>>
>>100420847
>>100421095
>>100421452
Not sure what you're doing wrong, but Tsukihime does have a 'skip scene' option, actually. Plus it only pops up for scenes you've already viewed. It really shouldn't be a big deal.
>>
>>100422213
Really? Every time I press the skip to next choice button it just sets it to autoread, it doesn't actually skip there. I'm playing Mirror-Moon's translation if that helps at all
>>
>>100422421
Hmm. That IS pretty odd. Can you turn off autoread in the options? It's been too long since I've played it, but the skip scene option definitely works, ordinarily. Is there anything you can fiddle about with in the options at all?
>>
>>100423028
Wow I'm retarded. Yeah, it's in the options. Usually when I launch games for the first time the first thing I do is fiddle with the options, but I think I misread it this time.

It's under "Skip parts previously read" and it's currently off. Thanks again
>>
>>100423186
No worries, glad you found the problem. I'd hate for anyone to miss the Far Side routes, they're the best in the game.
>>
>>100392360
Strength is the wrong word, it just regenerates, which then is new supernatural energy, or whatever.
This goes on untill the source is destoryed or deactivated.
>>
>>100423293
Alright, I'll definitely finish them. Is it worth going through CIel's route? Either you or someone else mentioned that that's also a Near Side route so I'm assuming not much changes.
>>
>>100423440
>Either you or someone else mentioned that that's also a Near Side route so I'm assuming not much changes.
The first half is very similar, but scene skip and Ctrl will let you clear through the repeated stuff. The second half is completely different and, in my opinion, more interesting than Arc's Route. Arc's is arguably the least interesting, it's just the most central of the stories.
Honestly? Unless you've a particular reason to not bother with them, all the routes are worth your time, and have inter-connecting factors that only start to make sense once you've read all/most of them.

Oh, and if you find you're having difficulties with context for the choices when you scene skip, there should be a flowchart floating around somewhere.

Have fun.
>>
>>100423868
>there should be a flowchart floating around somewhere.
By which I mean on gamefaqs or Beast's Lair or somewhere similar, not in the actual game.
Although I suppose MirrorMoon might have included one, you might as well check.
Just for clarificiation.
>>
>>100423868
Sounds good. Better not it leave it unfinished then, cheers



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