Why is this plastic hair bullshit so common? Do people actually think it looks good?
i think its because hair planes are a hassle that for artists so they adopted this style
>>635899>Do people actually think it looks good?is ok 4 cartoonish characters
>>635899>Why is this plastic bullshit so common? Do people actually think it looks good?ftfy
>>635912man this hurts but its truth, I'm currently trying all my best to avoid that uncanny plastic feel for polymass hair but to no avail. can you share some pointers?
For anything real-time it’s for performance reasons. Simulating hair is costly and the opacity maps for hair planes are costly but plastic hair is very cheap on the system and great if you have many characters on screen at the same time.
because it looks fine in the games and no one noticesalso most players collect hats in free to play crap so you rarely see the hair
>>635899performance reasons obviously, it means they can get the game on more platforms, lower cost and faster development time.
>>635929Learn hair planes.
>>635899it's a video game character, anon. what do you want exactly?
>>635947You say that like hair cards haven't been a thing for the past decade. Laying them down isn't even a problem anymore, both Maya and Blender have addons that'll add them procedurally.
>>635948>tech demohere's what ff15's shitty hair looks like in real time.
>>635950Still better than OP
>>635951so what you want is hyper realistic textures, anime faces, and horrible hair cards with extreme aliasing? might as well switch to daz.
>>635899"Muh style" And also what >>635904 and >>635930 said
>>635952The only bad things in that post are a result of playing on a 1080p toaster.
>>635899>Be OP>giantfag.mov>complains>easier to complain than work hard at something>disappointment to family>failure in all things, even 3D
>>635912So true. Substance Painter took the art out of texturing. It's all procedural bullshit now. I hate 3d now, it's not what it was.
>>635961Someone's salty their Fortnite-tier model got insulted.>>635963Honestly this. Every time a friend shows me a new "trick they found in substance" it's some procedural generated bullshit that looks like ass. I hate talking to other 3D artists because they're obsessed with this plastic bullshit and actively discourage experimenting with hair cards and such.I actually once had someone tell me I was an idiot for trying to learn hair cards while they didn't even know how to sculpt properly.
>>635899>Why is this plastic hair bullshit so common?Overwatch>looks good?Aesthetic is entirely subjective.
>>635966i don't even know what the problem is? This just sounds like complaining
>>635899I don't think realistic hair would look good on a Fortnitemana character
>>635963>Substance Painter took the art out of texturingNo, it's not the tool. It's texture artists being lazy fucks. You can use procedural and still paint manually as much as you want with SP. But, yeah, you have to actually put the work.Also, besides laziness, we can also blame the thirst for quick and cheap results with good returns. If the Fortnite formula worked, that's what we'll be having for a while until some other quick & cheap profitable fad is discovered.
>>635963>Substance Painter took the art out of texturingno. what sp does is now is what people used to do 20 years ago.the only difference is that they used to produce the procedurals in photoshop
Wow it's almost like there is a set style that they don't need your muh reel renderered hair fx>>635966Post your work, friend. I'm sure you are a total bigshot in the industry.
>>635977>we can also blame the thirst for quick and cheap results with good returnsSo true... 3D is a sweatshop as things currently stand. Environment artists are expected to produce entire environments in the time of 2-3 assets previously, what choice do they have but to slap a smart material on everything with a few alterations here and there? Hand painting is inefficient but that's where the true nuance lied.
as long as they can make decent porn with them
>>635899because it's supposed to look cartoonyare you retarded?realistic style games use hair cards
>>635899>Why is this plastic hair bullshit so common?Because it's easy, fast and cheap. Just like the game it was intended for.Games like Overwatch & Fortnite are like fast food. The people playing it want an easy fix and they have little appreciation for artful 3D. The studios just cater to them accordingly.
>Why is this plastic hair bullshit so common?Only in western games.
>>635963I don't give a heck what you boomers say. Substance Painter is amazing.
>>635899I have no problem with the way they are modeled, because I like the chunky hair strand look, and hate the way hair planes look, but it's just that the material makes it look like plastic.I think it is fine for the most part because it's cheap and it is not like they are going for realism.>>636009Well they either make uncanny hair cards like final fantasy, shadeless handpainted anime games, or concentrate on shaders like pic related.I think west tries to rely too much on pbr workflow even when going for very stylized look.
>>635948Blender too? I have tried to find that type addon but cant, know the name?
>>636013not that anon, but probably https://bartoszstyperek.wordpress.com/2017/07/29/hair-tool-blender-addon/
>>636009>>636011Honestly, I love games like BOTW. I don't mind sculpted hair, I mind the plastic-look most western games use. >>636019Yeah that's the one I was talking about.
>>636075So like I wrote above, it's all to do with textures and shaders that make western games look like plastic.
>>636019Anyone got a free download link?
>>636011The problem with BOTW is that the shader they are using is impossible to do in UE4 or Unity3d.I've asked several times on both the discord and forums. The closet they can get is with WinderWaker shader.
>>635951you can see down to her fucking scalp. The hair is easily the weakest part of the model by far.
>>636010sure it is as long as you don't need to paint across UDIM's
>>635899>>only points out hairI don't like the new trend of "make your character look like a blizzard employee had to do it before lunchbreak" people no longer accept criticism on anatomy, shading, texturing, normal's, anything... because they can use the cookie cutter response "its meant to be like that, its stylized low poly"it has its place, and unfortunately people seem to think that place is everywhere...
>>636091my favorite art style for video games has always been "realistic, but obviously a video game". the game having no pretentious vision of being anything but a video game, with cinematic parts. yakuza is probably the only franchise left that does it.
>>636099>it's another episode of /3/ critiquing something but can't do better!
>>636101Keep telling that to yourself.
>>636096same. that kinda early 2000s fake realism style is the best!
>>635899probably because cards look like ass unless they are really well done. nothing looks more ps2 than mediocre cards.good sim>>>>good cards>sculpted hair>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mediocre or bad cards>>>>bad sim
>>636210cards look either trash, or realistic. I personally think sculpted hair looks best for unrealistic, stylized designs
>>636083It's all post process actually.
>>636211yeah, if you have the time/skill to do high volume detailed cards (especially for things like beards or fur) it can look pretty damn good, but i would definitely prefer sculpted solid object hair over bad cards. that said, there is also a difference between good and bad sculpted hair. some of the lazier versions i've seen are basically just extruded and smoothed cubes or cylinders. some of the nicer ones though look more sculptural, handled kind of like old school marble statues
The idea of having one and the same pbr shader for pretty much anything is really fucking stupid.
>>636224The idea is not "we simulate everything in the universe accurately" the idea is "we can put this in Marmoset for pre-viz and then Renderman for comp because everyone has agreed upon a set of principles that transfer across render engines" and "it doesn't take very long to train artists to use a new render engine"
>>636232Yeah sure but I see people use the same shader in games where they clearly should be using custom shaders instead like for hair and it looks like ass.
>>635899It can look really good with proper materials, including flow-mapping. Just look at Dishonored 2.
>>636213>real time rendering shaders>post processexplain>>636238It's the people misusing it, just like asset flips are not intended to be final products, yet here we are.
>>636096I love how Tekken 4 did it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X90g7OD0eFwModern "realistic" style looks disgusting. I can't stand how most western games look.
>>636261Its like the compositing nodes in blender. In order to explain it you'd have to understand the realtime pipeline, but essentially you just glue a blur or grain (or whatever) effect onto the end of the pipe line (usually before you overlay the UI I would assume). Post processing probably isn't the correct word for it, but its close enough to understand what the original poster meant.
>>636261The characters are rendered in a custom depth pass which allows them to be masked from the rest of the scene. You grab the directional light direction using some code to create the base fake two cel lighting. You then isolate the actual lighting data from the scene and apply that to the base colour. That little glowstick he's holding is emitting a particularly strong light so that can be applied selectively. The little edge highlight is a negative depth based sobel edge detect. I'll let you figure out the code part yourself though :phttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2xCp-4GBGAYou can see in this video that Nintendo used two masks, one for link and one for the little edge highlight on the environment.
I just want curly and poofy hair depicted, because it's my fetish.
I think the reason a lot of games are avoiding cards is that they make the models in zbrush and retopo from there, instead of traditional modeling.
>>635952>so what you want is anime faces?Yes.
Can't into 3D here, but this is the visual version of the disgustingly cheap and lazy drum work done in every genre of music these days, among other things.
>>636339Ikr I was pretty surprised how simple it was.
>>636101Now, that screenshot looks great and all, but you don't have to be a chef to know when food is bad. Anyone can be a critic, and the validity of it is weighed by how clearly they conveyed why they feel that way.So yes he is still stupid.
>>635899Because the kids who grew up with 3D Disney movies from where the artstyle "originates" from are now adults, also it is pleb tier easy to do.
>>636494But... Disney (and all other animation studios for that fact) uses particle hair. It's entirely different from clay and poly/card hair. And the way they texture is entirely different too. Discarding Ptex/UDIM/animation texturing, these animation studios usually strive for realistic textures or at the most very cartoony textures, rather than the distinct style that comes along with handpainted textures.
>>635899Better than that stringy UV shit you guys call hair. I can literally see the plains floating on/clipping into the cranium.
>>635966eh make substance hair card then
>>636087Can Mudbox do that? Because if so I'm making the switch right away.
>>636089Yeah but that program is hard as hell to pirate.
>>636538You can use MARI for free, but it's a bit limited in that you're only allowed to have 6 UDIM tiles. Still, that's pretty generous and perfectly usable! So, if you want to go the Mari route, check out their website.
>>636498>yfw we could already have realistic realtime hair without performance loss but disney choose to hoard the tech instead
>>636498>>636561>>636562No, they use VDBs for hair. VDB's are opensource, the research to create hair using them is available, or you can use Houdini which has a toolset for VDB hair http://www.openvdb.org/about/>>636536I have no idea if mudbox can paint across UDIM. Just use Mari it's absolutely incredible painting software. The non commercial version is plenty capable. Painting 6 UDIM's at 4k each is most likely going to be enough texel density for you.
>>636567>the research to create hair using them is availableand patented
>>636567>Just use Mari it's absolutely incredible painting softwareWhat differs mari from substance painter?
>>636583Short answer: Substance painter is shit, Mari is awesome.Longer answer: SP can't into painting over UDIMs, which is retarded and the biggest reason why it sucks balls. Mari runs off your GPU, which means it's super fucking fast. SP is good for quick dumb things and the smart masks can be pretty powerful if used well. You can get stuff done in SP in minutes which would take you days in Mari, or you can get stuff done in Mari that is literally impossible to do in SP, like painting character textures over multiple UDIMs, which like, every fucking character requires, even for games right now.
>>636582Not sure that it is. The back bone of the technology is open source. >>636583Mainly the paint buffer. Mari paints strokes to a buffer then projects it down to the models uv's as opposed to substance painter which tries to paint into the texture space as you stroke resulting in serious performance issues when dealing with large textures with multiple layers. Mari lets you choose when to do the heavy calculations, Substance does not. Painting across UDIMs is also impossible in substance painter and is likely to remain so for a long time. Mari is just faster to work in thanks to the paint buffer. Making what substance painter calls 'smart masks' can be done in mari as well, it's just more technically involved and not as easy. That is changing quickly though. Looking at both packages Mari has a huge lead over substance painter when it comes to technology and work flow. Painters biggest advantage is it's cheap. Unfortunately it also runs like a cheap piece of software. Mari also loads Photoshop .abr libraries which is awesome for those who have been texturing for awhile and have brush libraries they would like to bring with them. I have brought .abr support up with Allegorithmic and they told me it's impossible which is clearly nonsense. Not sure why they would say that.
>>636597>>636604All right I'll check it out, currently trying out painter, so far it was okay-ish to use considering my painting experience is photoshop and I used only three brush presets there(hard, soft, triangle) but sometimes its slow for no apparent reasonDoes mari have graphs like designer? I'm currently checking it out and while this thing is certainly cool it eats fuckton of ram on my machine(14gb out of 16 what the fuck)
>>636615Mari has graphs. I wouldn't compare them to designer just yet though. It's more of an alternative way to work if you don't want to use layers, or build some complex relationships that are much harder to do in the traditional mari way. Mari's node graph will eventually be serious competition for substance designer though.
>>636615The shittiest machines in production have 48 gigs of RAM, and that's not enough to have Mari run smoothly. But they use 16+ Udims so...
>>635948Hair cards pose multiple problem with real time rendering, so if they can be avoided it's a net plus for devs.
>>636597In my opinion Substance Painter is very useful for quickly doing general props. Bunch of smart materials over a few masks and you're good to go. Some props can be textured in literally 5 minutes and it didn't take me more than 20 to texture a rifle. However the program is rather awful for characters or other organic things.TL;DRUse SP for propsUse Mari for characters
>>636771>TL;DR>Use SP for props>Use Mari for charactersand 3d-coat for hand painting
>>636620Noice thanks I'll look at it >>636712Haven't even used udim so far h-haa, all my stuff fits in 4k 1001>>636801Why? What makes it better for hand painting?
>>636830Many people already have 3d-coat for retopo and uv, and it seems to be the most recommended software for hand painting judging by the amount of paid and free tutorials.It has great, yet simple tools, projective painting seems to be the best. It feels more like traditional painting, and it's cheaper, also not as bloated, so it's great for low poly. It's best to see it in action on youtube yourself.I never used Mari, I should download the noncommercial version to give it a try, but it seems to be more oriented towards movie production. I couldn't even find any videos of stylized, handpainting with MARI.
>>636842I mean... the only real thing you need for handpainting is hard\soft brush, everything else is just bloat desu
>>636857that depends on how you work, but many people appreciate stencils, gradient tools, masking, blending tools, using 3d objects as brushes and so on. Sure you can just use hard/soft brush, but there are many tools that can help you achieve the look you got in your head.
Making real hair would require the artist to learn 3D modelling.
>>637004>learning how to place planes with a transparent hair texture is something you have to learnjesus christ just nuke the industry
It makes everything look like a Blizzard game.
>>637099even more pathetic since we now have entire fucking procedural card generators that require only grooming from artist
>>636404You don't have to be such an asshole and call me stupid because I just stated my negative opinion on it. Why are the other replies who just said the opposite not stupid as well? What do I have to explain. Just like the OP said he prefers old school fake realism style which makes the game keep it's videogamey look, I prefer photorealism and the more similar the games are to movies, the better for me. I don't like how flat everything is in Yakuza, I don't like the texturing approach and the lack of details. It looks at least a generation behind. My subjective opinion, just like yours.
>>637004Fucking kids, these days. I can grow real hair out of my balls with no effort.
>>635899>>635912its just the art style of the engines people are using right now. the trend will only die down if people start doing something else, so, like alwaysits up to you to be the change you want to be in the industry.get to work anon
>>637219Goddamn, I really fucking dislike the Sea of Thieves character design. It's like they intentionally went for visually unappealing, with eyes too far apart and too small and super exaggerated face structures. Talk about reverse neoteny.
>>637223yeah theyre fucking hideous, i think becfause "pirates arent pretty" but its unfortunate as fuck for a game that has horizontal progression and the only content is cosmetics to have ugly characters that nobody wants to project themselves on.
>>637224>>637223>>637219Sea of thieves literally has the worst female models in the current gen.
>>637108like overwatch you mean.Diablo wow and have distinct visual differences from overwatch, and even that is different from HOTS
I disagree that substance has taken the "art" out of texturing 3D models, sure it has substantially raised the skill floor, but the skill ceiling is still the same(infinite). Also, the texture is only one aspect of the model, and it does not guarantee that the person is going to know how to UV, Topology, model, rig correctly.
>>637234I agree I have seen plenty of models that have been textured in substance that are still shit due to the person not knowing basic design knowledge
>>636083it's math, find the math.
Cuz obviously fake but appealing will always be better than uncanny valley gross ass semi-real unnatural hairstrips.
>>637405>but appealing...that's where you are wrong and why we have this conversation. If you think that it is appealing, then you have a shit-taste and are obviously a part of the problem.
>>637427Why is it bad taste?
>>637427>my taste is objectively superior than yours>some artstyles shouldn't exist because I say soI honestly don't like the characters from Fortnite either, but the environments look nice. This style is pretty rare so I don't see what is such a big "problem" you are talking about. That hair is there for obvious reasons, though.
i'm not a fan of fortnite's art style. the characters all look like shitty generic action figures you'd find at a dollar store
>>637885I'd bet that was the point. There is a GDC talk where they explained all about their art direction and brainstorming process, but I didn't go through it. You should check it out if interested.
a game with as many players and a map as large as fornite will implode most pcs if fully rendered hair strands where implimented. This style steps back to the fundementals of hair design and designateds strands to clumps
>>637336Couldn't he just emulate zelda in cemu and run apitrace or glintercept to find out exactly how it works?
>>637885>generic action figures you'd find at a dollar storeAnd its massively popular with kids. Go figure.
>>637224Never thought about it that way, but you are bloody right
>>636404>you don't have to be a chef to know when food is badsure you do. people put ketchup on steak.
>>636771On the topic of texturing software, is there literally any program that lets you blur textures in 3D space rather than UV? It'd be really useful for getting smooth curvature and some other additional maps, like AO. I've even seen a paper on SIGGRAPH about it, but I was unable to find a single program that utilizes this tech. Maybe you guys know?
>>641294Link to the paper, please?
>>641327Damn, there actually IS software that does that, albeit it's not compiled: https://github.com/mkazhdan/TextureSignalProcessing
>>635963>>635912>more ppl = bad this is cool kids club it has to be difficult
>>641326>this paper"what?"over and over again
>>635899i dont like it eithernot to pull a "muh style" but any other style of hair would clash with the rest of the model i think
>>641336Hahaha agree ) Be Ready to recieve "Justin Bieber" as an example and explanation, why everything popular is trash and how standing above it all "will make you a man" comments..
Since this is hair thread, is there a good tutorial that deals with realtime lowpoly hair card setups?
>>636011it's a shame they ran the game on a fucking tegra because even though the environments look like ass the game still runs like shit
>>635966>Sculpting instead of poly modellingI hate 3d now, it's not what it was.Every retard or rejected art student can into 3D now and this is what you get.A bunch of monkeys playing with clay and ctrl-z.Honestly, what a bunch of whiney fucks you are.
>>643317t. brainlet who can't into sculpting
>>643323t. brainlet who can't into irony
>>643327>t. brainlet who can't into greentext
I unironically think plastic hair looks better than all other game hair. Its minimal and to the point without just generally looking low quality like everything else current gen.Prove me wrong.
>>643317Model for hard objects, sculpt for organic. Its not that hard of a concept, anon.
>>643378It would look better with some more detail. Maybe people don't like it because it looks pretty rough and mass produced. Anyone could make that in 30 minutes
>>635899>>635912>>635948>>635963>I suck at following style trends and am jealous of those that can, so I'm going to>BITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCH
>>635899If your character isn't going to look realistic, it'll look like shit if you give it realistic hair. It'll firmly plant itself in the uncanny valley (see: Mario Odyssey). Obviously, the solution is to just not make fucking cartoon characters in a style that was invented by Pixar in the 90s due to hardware limitations. >b-but, if they're not cartoons, they won't be stylized! muh artistic integrity! Plenty of films are stylized. You don't need to be a cartoon to be art.
R8 this hair pls
>>644042top of the image looks bad, because you can see hair overlapping in multiple directions
>>644042You made that face too?
>>636732? What problems with real time rendering anon? Either its a lot of polygons, or its not. And thats how simple it is.
>>644065Found a liplet.
>>635899It looks okay and it's not as hard to do as hair. Dosen't need as much resources either.
>>644087What...?By far one of the more render heavy elements in games these days are alphas.
>>644080no. do you think its good though?
>>644042Beautiful m8, id facefuckher/10
>>644065made for succ
>>635899Look up how pixelated and shitty the hair in Final Fantasy XV looks. This is a better alternative than using a billion plains with hair textures.
>>644087It's called overdraw
>"durr zbrush and substance are gay! you can get results fast! fucking art school rejects!">but anon, you can use them too and achieve greater results than before>"..NIGGER"
>>636232no one agreed to anything lmaoif you ever did proper texturing you'd notice that substance, marmoset and unreal 4 have ****very**** different output from the same texture seti've reach the point of exporting separate texture sets for every engine because how bad situation isPBR is sure solved some problems, like we can skip manual input of mentalness/specular for each material also blend those, but like anything in 3D, implementation is just horrible
>>644163I think it's fine, kinda messy on the sides though. Try dividing the hair into parts and combing them individually. I think that's how the industry big guys do it
>>643317Fuck off, son. Some of us have been at this for 20 years and prefer things this way.
>>635948>>635950>>635899I hope someone releases the tech CIG are using on this product, was linked this by a colleague. https://youtu.be/mtVsYhnW6aU?t=1642