[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vr / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / asp / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / wsg / wsr / x] [Settings] [Home]
Board
Settings Home
/3/ - 3DCG



Thread archived.
You cannot reply anymore.



Hey, /3/.

I've been reading up on these two programs for a while now, and I'm planning on using them for games in the near future.

But I need some help understanding the usage of both. On one hand, you have Designer, which allows you to make any kind of procedural material for use in games and probably other forms of media. Then you have Painter, which allows you to take these materials and texture whatever complicated model you may have, and export bitmaps from Painter, which probably takes up much more storage space and memory than procedural materials.

Some things I'd like to know:

How exactly do you texture large objects that you can't simply have exported Painter bitmaps for? I mean surfaces so large you would rather have a repeating material on it instead? And if there are variations in the pattern you want to project on to a surface (which might also have some variations of its own), could you get them from tweaking a tiled material instead of projecting a massive bitmap texture on it?

Is there a way to assign different materials on to a UV mapped model in Painter and tweak it to what you want, and instead of exporting bitmaps you load the materials you used and assemble the material in the game engine instead? I don't know if this point sounds ridiculous, I'm just questioning if there are ways to avoid exporting storage heavy bitmaps if you don't need to.

If anyone could break this down for me, or know about a useful tutorial that addresses this specifically, I'd appreciate that. I might post some examples of patterns I'm curious about as well.
>>
>>595707
>Then you have Painter, which allows you to take these materials and texture whatever complicated model you may have
Painter has its own set of procedurals that are derived from the shape of the mesh. No need to use Designer if you don’t want to.
>How exactly do you texture large objects that you can't simply have exported Painter bitmaps for?
Use tiling textures and/or set up a shader and blend stuff together. Texture atlas is a popular technique for buildings where repeating elements pull from a common pool of texture components that are piled into one big texture.
>could you get them from tweaking a tiled material instead of projecting a massive bitmap texture on it?
Don’t see why not, you have a plethora of blending options. Decals are more for grunge and smaller details anyway. There’s also the possibility of vertex painting, an in-engine feature that lets you paint a different material onto your mesh.
>Is there a way to assign different materials on to a UV mapped model in Painter and tweak it to what you want, and instead of exporting bitmaps you load the materials you used and assemble the material in the game engine instead?
No, different programs have varying algorithms for both shading and generating various types of surface detail; even Painter and Designer aren’t entirely comparable in this regard. If you wish to produce a shader that will run natively in the game engine, you have to produce it in the game engine.
cont.
>>
>>595717
>I'm just questioning if there are ways to avoid exporting storage heavy bitmaps if you don't need to.
You have to be clever about how you approach the issue. If you have metal, there might be no reason to have a texture at all, just use a shader. If you have basic texturing needs, using tiling textures and blend, breaking things up a bit with decals. For hero objects, and stuff someone is likely to inspect in first person, go full ham on it.
Remember that modern real-time engines like everything packed, the more reusable your assets are, the faster things will be; a bigger texture with several objects worth of stuff is always faster than individual maps for each. Poly count doesn’t matter as much for the most part, and to such a degree even, that people are starting to ditch normal maps and simply model everything out, because a sufficiently-detailed normal may carry more overhead.
>>
>>595707
Gamedev here, I can try to answer any questions you have.

First of all, about Substance, it's good to remember that generally: Substance Designer = tileable textures, & Substance Painter = painting unique objects.

So. There are several ways bigass props in games can be textured. They all involve clever use of tiling textures, because otherwise, the texture maps would be huge as fuck, or the textures incredibly low res. There are three different game texturing techniques for large props/environments I think might be of interest to you. These are:

Material Layering

Trim Sheets

Vertex Painting

Doing a google search for these terms should provide you with decent documentation and videos on each. If you're still confused or would like to hear my thoughts on each summed up, feel free to ask. For now I'd recommend doing your research and understanding the way each work, as they have their respective advantages and inconveniences and can even be mixed in environments to accomplish different things.

For your question
>Is there a way to assign different materials on to a UV mapped model in Painter and tweak it to what you want
I can't claim to fully understand what you mean, but you might want to look into material layering support within Substance Painter. If this isn't what you need, keep in mind it's fairly easy to have a copy of, say, both Unreal and Designer open at the same time, tweak a tileable texture in Designer, and override the one loaded in UE4 by exporting at the same location to see your tweaks in-engine.

Also, feel free to send examples of existing game environments or concepts you'd like to do, and I'll try to give you an idea of how they'd be made.
>>
>>595717
>Painter has its own set of procedurals that are derived from the shape of the mesh. No need to use Designer if you don’t want to.
This is true. Unless there's some kind of complex pattern I have to replicate exactly and feed into SP (say some sci-fi mesh grating for a vehicle), most of my textures are usually gonna be taken of by either SP or SD, not both.
>Texture atlas is a popular technique for buildings where repeating elements pull from a common pool of texture components that are piled into one big texture.
Texture atlases are often misunderstood and misused - the more correct term you probably want here is "trim sheet".

>>595719
>If you have metal, there might be no reason to have a texture at all, just use a shader.
Your textures will look incredibly CG and minimalistic if you use flat shaders. You'll want at minimum a tileable detail texture, even for stylized art.
>a bigger texture with several objects worth of stuff is always faster than individual maps for each
Be careful about this - we don't want OP to confuse it with atlassing (i.e. UVing 4 props onto a single 2048 texture rather than 4 1024's). What we're talking about is sharing a single, reusable 1024 trim texture across 4 models rather than 4 unique 1024's.
>people are starting to ditch normal maps and simply model everything out
You can look up Star Citizen for a good example of it. It's not exactly true that normal maps are "ditched", they're just entirely in trim textures rather than a unique bake. I say this because I've recently started to see more and more people model game props with full geo, and no normal textures whatsoever - no trims, and no textures for decals or details. It looks quite ugly and is very inefficient for polycount.
>>
>>595707
>which probably takes up much more storage space and memory than procedural materials.
Smart/Procedural materials take less space, however you need more processing power to calculate them. Disk Space is cheaper than processing power. Basically, either you have a game with 10GB and 60fps, or a game with 1GB and 30fps. Guess which one players will rather take.
>>
>>595707
here's all you need to know about substance.

there is no other program on the market that can touch it.
you can get the same results, but you can't get the speed.
>>
Thanks for the replies, anons, lots of useful stuff posted in this thread.

>>595721

Material layering might be what I'm looking for. Seems comparable to assembling materials and exporting in Painter, but for tillable textures, right? As far as I can tell, this is what I wanted, especially for larger objects that would need massive bitmaps.

Trim sheets appears to be exactly what I was looking for when it comes to texturing buildings. So I will most likely be using this as well.

Vertex painting looks comparable to fill masks in Painter, but the name kinda confuses me. It sounds like you need fairly dense geometry to get anything out of it, is that right? Or is it really comparable to painting a mask in Painter?

Anyway, these were very useful terms for understanding texturing in games better.
Here's an example of something that hasn't been addressed in this thread, and I can't think of an example from a game, but it's the principle of it that I'm interested in: How would I do something like pic related with a tileable material? Every time I see patterns that bend like this on walkways or buildings in real life, I wonder how I could do that for games. Might be trim sheets with one sheet that has the bendy shape, but I can't see how you would align the sheets reliably.
>>
>>595823
Make a spline mesh for the walkway, assign tiling stone material, shape spline into how you want it to go. That’s it. Same way you’d go about making ropes and pipes basically.
>>
>>595824

Awesome. Would it be possible to assign this type of spline to existing geometry you made in a separate 3D program as well (for modeling arcs on buildings for example)?
>>
File: arc.jpg (143 KB, 1024x1024)
143 KB
143 KB JPG
>>595825

Nevermind, I think I found the solution: Just UV map a straight object before bending it.
>>
>>595823
https://youtu.be/dghCetkArJI
Have you watched this video? It explains how to use a texture to control blending between your vertex painting materials. Though you can vertex paint certain things without it (puddles on the ground, for example, or anything where a smooth transition is acceptable), it's an essential part of the workflow for blending many materials.
>>595853
Any decent unwrapping software can also turn a selection of quads such as the side of an arch into even rectangles, meaning you can apply such textures after your model is done.
>>
>>595869

Aw yes, that revealed the true power of vertex painting for me. I suspected vertex painting was limited to one value per vertex, and I was right, but I didn't know you could use height maps or other maps to get the detail in. Can't wait to test this when I have the time.
> Any decent unwrapping software can also turn a selection of quads such as the side of an arch into even rectangles

Do you think Maya has this? The one I was posted was made in Cinema 4D, and the UV mapping tools are easy to learn, but really primitive. There would be no way for me to straighten without doing it manually, which would inevitably make it really wobbly. I'm planning on ditching C4D for Maya, but the UV tools in Maya are a bit more complicated, and the modeling tools are hard to appreciate when coming from C4D, especially when it comes to using splines (this arc only used a bend deformer, though).
>>
>>596127
As you realized already, C4ds UV tools are primitive or in other words: lacking.
Maya's UV tools just got an overhaul.
And yes, spline modelling and some procedural modelling is easier and more fun in C4d but that's about all C4d has over Maya.
>>
File: fence.jpg (145 KB, 1023x682)
145 KB
145 KB JPG
Here's another interesting one. I don't think a fence like this should be modeled for games, but I wouldn't want this pattern to be paper thin either. Any ideas on how you would do this?
>>
File: 516593099_1280x720.jpg (251 KB, 1280x720)
251 KB
251 KB JPG
>>596163
You could probably exploit this here script to get close to it if you're a Max user - i've had good luck with this one in the past.

https://bodyulcg.com/tools/wire-mesh-generator/

Or - if you wanna sit at the grownups table; RailClone. Pic related.
There's a free/light version available. I bought the Pro version a while ago and I'm continually blown away by what people can do with it.

https://www.itoosoft.com/railclone.php

If you're not a Max user, I got nothing.
>>
>>596163
Something specifically like this is very complicated to pull off for a game without wasting a ton of geometry.
Off the top of my head, the dumbest solution I can come up with is to create say a dozen or more poly layers onto which you can paste the wall texture. If the gap between each layer is narrow enough, you shouldnt notice that it’s made of stacks of polys. And it’ll mainly work in a game with a low camera as if you look down on the fence at a steep angle it may break the illusion... in any case, common sense says that one-poly planes with a small repeating texture tile should be the most efficient.
>>
new to SD/SP, but how can i go about creating something like metallic web on the floor of pic related?
I want it to be able to see in between the metal pieces, so should i just make it as geometry and and make simple metal material or can i just use a simple plane and apply texture on it that will act as the geometry?
>>
>>596185
The most reasonable method is the same one as for fences and similar things. You have to model out a modular section of the grate, and render to texture onto a square poly with normals and an alpha map, then just tile this texture over a poly that's laid on top of the frame it's supposed to be a part of.
>>
>>596163
>what is parallax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ8N0U07b6E
>>
>>596163
high levels of geometric instancing
>>
>>596203

But is geometry instancing any faster, as far as performance in games goes?
>>
>>596402
Not when it comes to FPS performance since it has to be drawn on screen, but it needs less RAM.
>>
Back with some more particular challenges, assuming people haven't left yet.

On streets with some kind of stone pattern, sometimes there's this one strip of stones that doesn't match the rest like this. How would you do that, and how would you blend between them? I imagine trim sheets are too rigid and small scale for this.
>>
File: 379771313_44f6664639_b.jpg (473 KB, 1024x641)
473 KB
473 KB JPG
Another texture blending example. I have a good idea on how to model and UV map this, but how would you get that crucial line of concrete between the straight bricks and the bent (arc) bricks?
>>
>>597568
Unwrap it as if it wasn't curved, and make the outer seam take up a bit of concrete. Is that ez bro
>>
>>597579

But it doesn't really blend like that, you will get a razor sharp edge on the concrete.
>>
>>597568
have ur uv have a white line along one of the outside edges, like the right edge
then when upwrapping the curve, make it up against that edge of bricks.
so the it will render with the bricks on the bottom, and the thin white line at the top.




Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.