What is missing with vfx? Why is it always possible to tell when it's cg? What do we need to overcome uncanny valley and achieve perfect photorealism?
>>585118mocap has put the industry deep into uncanny valley with no way out
>>585120What are you talking about? Mocap stops people from being animated like robots.
>>585125>what is toystory for $500, alex?
>>585126>toystory is photorealistic and overcomes uncanny valley and there goes your argument.
>>585128>"mocap has put the industry deep into uncanny valley with no way out">"no it hasn't">"muh toy story"Please explain why you think toy story is in any way a good indication of a) realistic animation and b) photorealistic cg
>>585129you're not making sense and please stop posting
>>585132Answer OP's question or fuck off.
>>585133I already did, fpbp
>>585118>what is missing with vfx?bigger render farms.
>>585139looks horrible and plasticky>blender cyclesjust fuck my shit up senpai
>>585139>oh shit that looks so bad.jpg>giant blender logo and shitanother day on /3/
>>585118I'm starting to believe that the humain brain is way too good at reading other human faces. We've been doing it for eons, so of course even the latest CGI accomplishment will always look weird.Gollum probably holds up today as one of the best because, though realistic as a living being, he's not human. Other creatures like the prawns in District 9 and hard surface robots and stuff also have a better chance to succeed. But humans? Sorry, no. Tarkin was nice and all, but still way off:>Animation (biggest flaw at the moment imo, especially in the subtle nuances of facial expressions)>Sub surface scattering and other material physical values, including the million tiny hair and fuzz messing with the skin>Variations of tension but mass retention of muscles, tendons, and other underlying anatomical structure>The eyes. Every single time.>Fully simulated wrinkles and folds>Integration and interaction with actors in live footage, saturation, contrasts, etc.Overall, this should be done scarcely. Same goes with de-aging. Finally, ffs, let dead people be dead.
>>585118>uncanny valleyThere's the problem. There is no valley and there is nothing shrewd or un-clever about the visual reality. Vfx falls short simply because instead of at least trying to replicate the noise that bombards our senses they cater to trying to ram all sorts bad theories into one visual.
>>585174>There is no valleysure m8...
>>585141>>585169How the fuck does that look bad? How do you see that, I wanna see it too.
>>585141>>585169>looks real>/3/ can't handlechecks out.
>>585176it's a meme, d8get off it
>>585139why do they always fuck up the eyes?
>>585139>CyclesWait if fucking Blender can render and model shit like that why the fuck do you even need 3ds max or modo
>>585224>Wait if a 1998 Toyota can transport you from A to B why the fuck do you even need Ferrari and Lamborghini
>Why is it always possible to tell when it's cg?Because you don't notice good CG/Thread
>>585118its always the fake eyes
mostly artist competence and effort.the only technical barrier remaining is ray tracing itself. light is a wave. renderers will have to start treating it like one eventually.
>>585239>mostly artist competence and effortILM is top shelf regarding that>light is a wave. renderers will have to start treating it like one eventuallySounds clever but actually bullshit. Ultimately, photons end up taking a single path and bounce until absorption, something that renderers (even biased ones) can do with great accuracy. You don't need to know all the microscopic probabilities and interference (if any) when dealing with macroscopic objects, only the end result. How would you even include quantum properties into a render engine? Enlighten us
>>585224Nobody modeled that in Blender. Its a 3d Scan.
>>585244http://gl.ict.usc.edu/Research/DigitalEmily2/ <- get the model from hereother renders of Emilyhttp://leprince.co.uk/digital-emily-2-1/#jp-carousel-145http://oksu56.artstation.com/projects/d95aQhttps://www.behance.net/gallery/56135831/Emily
>>585118Shaders my nigga
>>585139>>585245those all look quite bad..
>>585233If a 1998 free toyota could go as fast and look as good as a ferrari or lambo (which is exactly how good blender is in relation to max and modo) then exactly why the fuck would you need a ferrari or lambo?
>>585251Nice argument, Modo is decent (nothing amazing tho) but max is fucking dead trash that isn't good for anything that isn't avaiable in other packages
>>585249The thing is Blender cannot do all the stuff 3ds Max or Maya can do. It can do a lot of stuff and sometimes its even much faster than Max or Maya, but as a whole Blender is not as feature rich as either of those. So your 1998 free Toyota could go SOMETIMES as fast and as good looking as my Ferrari and Lambo. Also why the fuck would you not want a free (stolen) Ferrari, Lambo, Ducati and Bugatti in your garage?
>>585254or even educational free legit versions of any Ferrari, Lambo, Ducati AND Bugatti, for that matter
>>585254i compare blender to bitcoin>people call it a cult>boomers HATE it>respects your privacy>efficient and fast>backed by the communityget with the times grandpa!
>>585254Fuck can max do that blenderetti can't
>>585256so, now try to get a job in finance by telling ppl you're not proficient with money, you only swear by bitcoinssee how it goescredibility = picture attached
>>585256My car park is huge, i even drive with a 1998 Toyota sometimes. You are just a poor idiot who doesn't have the balls to go on a grand theft auto tour and get what you want, instead you convince yourself that driving a 1998 Toyota is the best.
>>585259Are you implying anyone would even want to work in the 3D field.
>>585262I think I was m8It can be shit, but it can be greatAs far as jobs go, it's surely not the worst someone can do for a living
>>585259>Can make 2x more money freelancing instead of being a corporate whore for 10 hours a day >YES GOOOY LEARN AND BUY MAX OR YOU WILL HAVE NO JOB
>>585264>freelancing >Blender95% of portfolios are shit, good luck finding clients
>>585267>People suck with a program and create a shitty reel>Wew fucking blenderKill yourself
>>585267>average "out of college" portfolio
>>585118Face movement too smooh.Weird shifts in detail between skin - hairline.Eye reflection like he's constantly crying.Skin can't stay still for one fucking frame.
>>585269I mean, he is an animator...
>>585268>Freelancing with Blender.Customer sends a .max or .mb file.Customer gives you an Openvdb fileCustomer wants the Rig in MayaCustomer wants you to use his own custom shaders only compatible with Arnoldetc...What do you do?
>>585275Use houdini like a skilled artist
>>585275You are creating what if scenarios just to shit on blender my dude. Think about it
>>585277Those "what if" scenarios are common everyday things that Blender users seem completely oblivious to. Why is it so hard to grasp that nobody remotely professional uses Blender?
>>585278Man in the high castle. Also blender will become more and more popular simply because he doesnt suck massive dick like it did years ago and thee newer versions of maya modo or max add fuck all.
>>585278>Those "what if" scenarios are common everyday thingsthey're not. if someone sends me a dogshit format like that i tell him to export another. it takes 2 seconds to communicate back and forth. matter of fact i already did this a dozen times.you are obviously lacking the real world experience when it comes to 3d.
>>585252Hmmm, we have a fucking retarded faggot, I see...
>>585279Man in the high Castle will be name-dropped by Blender-fanboys for YEARS, when everybody else has already forgotten that this mediocre adaption of an P.K.Dick book even exists. Doesn't matter that 95% of all VFX in that TV-Series are Set extensions which are piss easy to do and all the real VFX where done in Houdini or Nuke and composed together. >>585282It takes 2 seconds for the customer to tell you that you either read the "dogshit" files or can search for another job.
>>585286man in the high castle is a drop in the water. it was used in hardcore henry,angry birds,legends (tv series) and history channel.and about the formats, i never had to ask clients to switch up the format because everyone knows that global formats are better in every way
>>585118I went to the movie with a friend and he though the guy was real so I'll say it's pretty close. But like a fw comments already said, it's the eyes, the smooth movements and I'll also add the face texture. It just seem... too smooth
>>585288And those are also just some drops in an ocean of non-blender made VFX.You can do stuff in Blender, but if it comes to compatibility and you have to exchange a lot of stuff, Blender becomes a crutch. >global formatsYou mean like OpenVdb, Alembic and FBX?I had clients shitting on me with all kinds of formats, if i had to work in Blender i couldn't have done half of them.
>>585289Thanks for bringing us back to the main topicYour friend though Tarkin was real? shiiieeet.. Nothing felt weird to him?
>>585291i mostly work with unity and unreal devs. so the formats we use are pretty much the same.if someone comes at me with something weird ill ask a friend to convert it just to prevent any hassle from the client side
>>585293I worked with architects, advertising people and car-manufacturers. Converting File formats is a business and there are specific companies doing that stuff for you (and its expensive). Its an eat or die situation. Either you can do it (now!) or you're out. Thankfully i am not doing that anymore. Doing Unreal now. Back to topic.What about Logan? How does it come that an company like ILM's end result is worse than what some unknown (to me) VFX company can do.Here watch this video starting at 8 minutes and decide for yourself:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yITLqk7GL1II think Logans digital double is much better than Tarkins.
>>585296Because ILM didn't have head scans of Tarkin. These guys put Hugh Jackman in a huge capture rig and have his real face from every angle in various lighting conditions as a reference. Also they didn't use the double in scenes where you have to stare at his face for a long time.Actors are touched up by CG all the time. It's when you have to completely replace them lies the issue.
>>585293you get your friend to convert assets for you for free to use on a project you're being paid for?if that's the case, it doesn't seem like a very reliable part your work depends on.
>>585348that happens every blue moon.and the last time it happened i needed a DAE file but the blender exporter was broken, so i handed it to a friend to fix it.shorty after i found the autodesk fbx converter and i didn't have to do it anymore
>>585345Yeah you are right. I didn't think hard enough about it. But on the other Hand, nobody forced them to do close-ups of Tarkin.They could had used him differently to tone down the uncanny.
>>585141>>585169>it's literally a 3d scan of an actual human being>OMG IT LOOKS SO BAD LMAO BLENDER EVERYONE!Fuck right off, if that had a Maya logo you'd be all over it. Don't make me post pancakes
>>585267>95% of portfolios are shit, good luck finding clientsAnd this is a Blender specific problem how? most portfolios, indeed most people, are shit
>>585350Yeah I always thought it was weird that they did that, they could have just shown him from the back or something. I guess they wanted to be the first to start the CG actor revolutionq
>>585351I posted some other versions of the 3d scan (made with other DCCs) here. >>585245They don't look much better.>>585354Should have just pulled the camera further away.
>>585174dude I have no idea about the son of freud lmao
>>585118Unless you have virtually unlimited processing power at hand for your project + about 2 years for an entire studio to spend on a single scene of about 10 seconds, we will never achieve realism.No matter how advanced tech gets, the human cognition is superior.Example: you will never recognize hair as 'real' unless you literally render every single hair on your head in perfect geometry which reacts to wind and light.Example: you will never recognize an eye as real unless it reflects every single light movement perfectly, unless every fiber in the iris reacts naturally to stimuli.Making a whole face 'real' is virtually impossible, even with today's state of the art tech. Let alone a whole human or whole scene.We are far from realism and it is questionable if we'll ever achieve it. The real question should be: WHY do we want that? Is it necessary for our entertainment? Technology will advance greatly in the next 500 years and the products we create will be a different dimension from now, but we'll always be able to tell it's 'just CG'.
Go watch the new Blade Runner guys, there's a surprise in there for you.
>>585396Wait for 20 more years or so. Yes Moore's law is coming to an end but our tooling and processes are improving as well - Substance Painter was released in 2014. The AI revolution is going to make a huge impact in the CG art world though it is mostly in academic papers at this point.
>>585396I kinda disagree. It's not the rendering of material that's the problem. It's the minute movement of the body, skin and muscles and micro expressions that look weird still.
>>585449>The AI revolution6/10
>>585396This is so wrong it hurts. CG needs to be good enough to fool the part of our brain specifically designed to process faces. It doesn't need to be 100% atomically correct in every regard. We are good with processing facial details but not THAT good.
>>585459AI will dramatically improve animations at the very least. It's already working with sound and imitating human voices.
>>585475It depends of the state of mind. If you suspend disbelief you might oversee it. On the other hand, human perception is THAT good when it comes to recognize a human from something else. That is an evolutionary trait.Also the subconscious mind has a big role in it, your actual perception is much richer, the brain filters out a lot of information which you don't see consciously.
It's easy to bash 3DFX when it is made badly or mediocre, OP. 'Rogue' has been rushed and it shows. They had to pump it quick, no time for perfectionism. Here is an example of what you get when you take the time and effort to achieve "perfection".youtube_com/watch?v=HjHiC0mt4Ts
>>585478yeah this one is fucking goodI still can't fathom it was done 3 years ago with fucking Lightwave
>>585488lightwave is the poor man's maya and blender is freedom
People aren't thinking outside the box enough. I believe either a combination of still images and CGI could be the key in the future. You could have a camera go 360 degrees around and have full range of the animation. Taking small strips of an image and wrapping it around the model with the moving body parts being CGI. I don't know why these kinds of methods haven't gotten the attention they deserve. There could really be some major advances if taken seriously.>>585396Painters and artists have achieved hyper-realism long ago. You can look up hyper realistic drawings or paintings and easily be fooled into thinking they're photographs.
>>585459If throwing grains in the mud and eating the weed that grows afterwards counts as revolution, then using AI for everything counts too.Also, the human brain has limited capacity. It has to fit inside a skull, grow from one cell, work on sugar, self-repair and be based on previous architecture. We can do better with silicon, buildings, electricity and starting from scratch.
>>585560>We can do better with silicon, buildings, electricity and starting from scratch.the brain is more powerful and efficient than any cpu ever created. Nobody has any idea how to match the efficiency
>>585242Well I didn't mean to go that far. I mostly meant accounting for diffraction of light, really. I can't make any claims on how much it would impact renders, though. It's just a detail I see being ignored.
>>585118I used to believe EVERYONE can tell that there is something weird about uncanny valley. Tarkin just looks like a Playstation 6 character. The thing is: normies don't even notice it! I've watched this film with my girlfriend on the silver screen and I've asked her "do you notice anything about this character?" But the entire film she didn't notice anything odd and didn't notice that he wasn't real and just a CGI character. At first I would blame her. Then we would ask other people who saw the film and they didn't notice it either. GAMERS - people who are trained to see 3d - all noticed it but people who don't have much contact with 3d couldn't tell Tarkin wasn't real. This shocked me.
>>585592it took them over 6 mo to make 5 seconds of Tarkin. A real actor only takes 5 seconds to make 5 seconds...thats the difference
>>585296wait did they scan that little girl in shirtless? nice.
>>585118The first thing that stood out to me in this scene was the reflection of the light on his skin, and generally how the light interacted with him (eyes, face). Putting him right by an actual human actor, especially with such a harsh contrast in the lighting on each character, reallllllly made it obvious which was fake. Also, I don't know what method they used to animate him, but it looked like he was moving through jello - the movements looked way too coordinated and thought out.
>>585118>What is missing with vfx?real answer!proper ability to create wax shaders.tell me i'm wrong, /3/.
>>585697nah, even fucking mental ray can allow for decent wax shadersbut yeah, great/accurate sub-surface shading is quite hard to achieve, especially for realistic human skin
>>585610Well, a real actor would take 2 hours, maybe more.You don't film people out of the bed, there's clothing, styling, and all that jazz.I agree with you, mind, but accuracy must prevail.
>>585173I think for normies it can kind of pass. But anyone in CG is going to spot it in an instant and think something like "that specularity seems too high around the eyes"In my opinion, MoCap always looks "floaty", like the weight is always wrong, because you are never using an actor with the same weight as the onscreen thing. It needs to be heavily processed by animators afterward. The Gollum/Planet Apes actor think his acting goes straight to the film without hours and hours and days and days of animators wiping his digital ass. As a rigging fag I feel like even in high budget films I spot shit like if a limb is in FK or IK. One of many bad parts of being a CG fag is you aren't as easily impressed. I was pretty wowed by Avatar except for any time the aliens and humans where on screen together. They simply do not exist on the same world.Rigs are based on perfectly rotating pivots, which is not at all how real bones work. You are always going to be missing things like how a person looks slightly different each day. Today I woke up and my eyes feel a little puffy and my hair is doing something a little weird on the side. In CG everything is always made to a perfect out of the box default look, when nobody looks like that by default, so everything is built on a default of "perfect" that makes things feel wrong.
>>585781For instance, look at this simple ass shot in comparison to any CG human or CG anything. It's not HiRez, it doesn't feel too "perfect".This would be impossible in CG. The hands would look fake, the skin wouldn't crumple right, you'd never get the feeling of something relaxing. This guy ruins all of Avatars cgi, he looks too real, he is too human. This guys whole body changes when in a tense scene or in a relaxed scene, his whole muscle structure functions differently his skin tightens, the amount of sweat he produces changes from seconds to second. Minute changes in blood flow cause things you don't notice unless they aren't there.You put this single character near some CG and he make all that effort look like shit.
>>585784Forgot to post pic
>>585784>This would be impossible in CG. The hands would look fake, the skin wouldn't crumple right, you'd never get the feeling of something relaxing. This guy ruins all of Avatars cgi, he looks too real, he is too human. This guys whole body changes when in a tense scene or in a relaxed scene, his whole muscle structure functions differently his skin tightens, the amount of sweat he produces changes from seconds to second. Minute changes in blood flow cause things you don't notice unless they aren't there.it will be possible in 5 years when we have better AI
So have any of you motherfuckers seen Blade Runner 2049 yet?!?! Could we please talk about that 10/10 CG face?
>>585793it didnt show any emotion at all, they had it on screen for only 10 seconds and half of that didnt show face
>>585781>MoCap always looks "floaty", like the weight is always wrongyep, that's also true, weight is definitely an issuenice to have the perspective from a rigging point of view
>>585784>>585785point made, human imperfections and nuances are endless and ever changing>>585788lul this guy again>>585793was she fully CGI? i was really puzzled by it, it seemed like a look-alike actress with digital alterations
>>585804>lul this guy again>grandpa not getting with the AI times
>>585795>Didn't show any emotion at allShowed just enough for what the character called for, presumably.>>585804I'm fairly certain it was fully CGI
>>585806Damn, if so, first time I got fooledBut then again, she's a stoic robot lady in very contrasted lighting, so I guess it helps
>>585788I agree with the idea that technological advances will eventually advance the state of the art to true photorealism but "AI takes care of it in 5 years" is a bad meme. I've been at it for a while and while things are changing quickly they aren't changing that quickly. Let's see where things stand in 25 years or so.
>>585805>>585881what is AI even suppose to take care of exactly? bringing human-like imperfections or what? when it comes to creating main characters for movies or games, automation isnt that much involved"AI takes care of it in 5 years" is a bad meme indeed
>>586044AI will be able to replicate expressions in animation much better than the tools we use for it now
>>585118Blade Runner 2049 did an incredible job of bringing back Rachel. I didn't know it was CG until after the movie.
>>585247I think part of the issue is the model itself. That it's a (realistic) human makes things worse than if it were a cartoon-y human.
>>585286I'll name drop SuperMansion and Hardcore Henry, actually. Since those two use Blender for VFX as well.https://vimeo.com/171674521https://www.blender.org/news/hardcore-henry-using-blender-for-vfx/Hell, the film industry's been using the program for animatic purposes, like on Spider-Man 2:https://web.archive.org/web/20070221025521/https://www.blender.org/features-gallery/testimonials/Captain America: The Winter Soldierhttps://www.fxguide.com/featured/captain-america-the-winter-soldier-reaching-new-heights/Even Wonder Woman used Blender to some degree in one company's pipelinehttp://www.artofthetitle.com/title/wonder-woman/ (scroll down, it's when they talk about what programs they used)So while it's still relatively obscure, to say it's not industry professional enough is an outright lie.
>>586057Then you are fucking retarded. It was awful as the movie itself
>>586082normies HATED it but remember, the first bombed as well
>>586084Weird, from my experience NORMIES are the ones that love it, you know, the ones that enjoy capeshits and such.
An answer from a human perspective: We are hardwired to look for the human face, and we know what it looks like, therefore, when something is even slightly off, it's noticable. We have a negative emotional response to something that is fairly human but not quite because it resembles a corpse, it does not appear to be fully alive
>>586085If normies loved it, it wouldn't be flopping
>>586082>Blade Runner 2049>AwfulPick one or reevaluate your lifeJust the visuals alone bring the movie to at least 8/10
>>586085gonna assume you have no experience with normies then
>>585132You are one retarded motherfucker.
>>586208Or maybe... Just maybe... You're generalizing too much.
>>586183>Visuals accounting for 80% of a film's scoring.>Being that concerned with visualsMakes sense you'd think this given the board we're on. You probably like a lot of well polished and sculpted turds.
>>586255>He was just saying that the visuals were good >Not the whole movieYou're a faggot
>>586255kek what a fag
>samefaggin on an italian x-ray machine manufacturing board
>>585212Whats wrong with the eyes?
>>585254The tools are limited by the artisan in this case. I sense someone's trying to cope with buyer's remorse
>>586497You seem confused. I never mentioned artist skills. I was only talking about the ability of the software. Also what part about the stolen car analogy did you not understand.?Tell me about how a car-thief has buyers remorse, fuckchode.
>>585127>>585129His point is probably this: Stop doing mixed media (CG and film), they will never mix.
>>586517What did you just say? Fuckmother!Hard-surface can be almost flawless and unnoticeable now, organic still has many issues, and 100% human is the worst.
>>586536Obviously, the answer is to make an entire 3D movie so realistic that people will think its' real, but without an inch of real stuff that makes people notice the subtle differences between the real stuff and the 3D stuff.Alternatively, we just need to figure out how to simulate flesh and we are done.
>>586565yeah pretty much this
> go watch br2049>young Rachel appears>i-is this a real actress in makeup? >realise its cgi>jizz in my pants >suddenly twitching corner of her mouth ruins it all>welcome to the valley my friend
>>587402They always seem to overdo the subtle facial expressions just enough to ruin it
>>587402They got close though. She's more realistic than Tarkin, it's crazy
>>586595Well, if this is for photorealism in general, check this out: https://vimeo.com/205801583Anyone calling Redshift shit can suck my dick
>>587405It was perfect until she had to express emotions.
>>587405>implying Tarkin was any good
>>587402Read that they worked on that for a year. 2 minutes of almost perfection 1 year. And at the end even the TD said that we're still years away from cg actors taking over in film. Most reasonable guy in Hollywood ? I'd say so.
>>587402>>587428Forgot to mention only the head was cg!
>>587406The exterior is pretty crappy. Video game like.
>>587442>crappy and video game like.Come on Anon don't push it with the hyperbole.I agree it doesn't look photo-realistic and could be better, but it doesn't look bad.
>>587414Tarkin was good, just really far from flawless>>587428damn! but yeah that sounds accurate
I stand by the fact that people don't realise shit's CG if they don't have any reason to. Tarkin was dragged through the mud because dude's dead, and as far as anyone knew he wouldn't be rising from the dead to shoot the scene. And the opposite's true, things that are unusual enough are instantly called out to be CG, 'a bloo bloo look at that shit render, the materials aren't even real looking, fake ass CG shit" and then wow surprise it's really all practical effects, or none at all. We've come a long way and I think the only reason shit like this happens is purely from confirmation bias.I know because I've never heard anyone talk shit about the comps we've worked on, that are actually 100% CG, but are so mundane and low-key that they have no reason to suspect it to be CG, while it actually 100% is. Meanwhile a CG-less shot somehow gets called out for shit CG just because it's out of the ordinary, and we all just sit down shrugging because we know nobody's done shit for that shot.
>>585118>Why is it always possible to tell when it's cg?when they do their job right, it will be hard to tell
>>587542Bit confusing how this is written but I get the idea: the confirmation bias and the fact that you "know" its CGI seems to be enough to shit on it x1000 more.Its like when Mad Max came out, people were like "hooolllyy shit its all practical and it looks so good!!!" ... yeah but there was a ton of CGI too, just well executed and used appropriately. Good CGI is indeed seamless with visuals of the movie, unlike shitshows like most DC movies, Transformers (despite the robots looking great, its just waaay too much) and the Matrix sequels back in the day.