How can Cycles be improved?
>>577504I think you misspelled "removed"
they should make a better config file that's not bloated with 100 different options that slow down your render.for the engine itself, they need to improve the lightning system,and make a lamp that is specific to portals, the portal hack some guy made for blender is shit. also make quick post effects, just like in corona and iray. and improve whatever is causing all that noise
>>577507this is also a good option, unironicaly. just kill cycles. and insert a modified version of renderman. it won't bother the devs with improving rendering anymore
I don't follow Blender but didn't it get a new rendering engine recently EVEE or something like this?
>>577513Eevee is a real-time rendering engine, primarily to provide an ultra high-quality viewport, but of course you can also render out to it as well.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAVjwXEjDdohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mxJzQ9Jqukhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRnrkkL7LqAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmZVpc9sJOM
The Blender Foundation should stop hiring "people who identify themselves as women" and pretend those are good programmers. Same for Google, the Mozilla Foundation and the Gnome Foundation. Sorry if that hurts "muh diversity" but programming requires people who aren't obsessed with their neo-vagina.
>>577513Yes and no.The pokemon render engine is there to quickly prototype shit, it's supposed to work alongside cycles.It's not out yet, coming 2.8 (2.79 is currently on RC). We really need something to replace cycles though. It's way too noisy and dedicated render tools can get better results in about the same time.
>>577526Really, why bother using cycles when an external render would do?But if we really do want to improve it, then the lighting system itself needs a huge overhaul. Whenever I try using the sun lamps in Cycles, it always comes out looking like complete horse shit. more so when glass or windows are involved. So pretty much like what >>577508 said. And it puzzles me as to why they didn't consider it when Cycles was first introduced.
>>577526>The pokemon render engineI chuckled
>>577631>Really, why bother using cycles when an external render would do?thats because some of the shaders and nodes are exclusive to cycles.
>>577634I get that, but the overall final quality can come out as utter shit when you don't want it to. And a huge part of that is their lighting system and the myriad of options you have to tweak that can somehow make it look worse.Denoising is a good start, but as I said, lighting still needs a huge improvement. Especially the sun lamp.
>>577504Ton Roosendaal posted this today so I suppose they'll try that thinghttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmm_vEVs10
>>578395i don't get it. everyone are so hyped about this denoiser shit. but you people need to consider that other renders don't use denoisers.its a bad habit because it fakes the final result, but i guess they had to come up with something to fix this broken sampling system
>>578399Its probably because it won't kill your PC.
>>578399Corona, Vray, Renderman have Denoiser. While i agree that denoisers manipulate the end result, in a lot of cases it makes totally sense and doesn't degenerate the image quality too much. But its probably no surprise to anyone when the Denoiser of Renderman denoises better than the latest cycles one.
>>578435>Comparing a free render engine to fucking renderman
Just to put things in context for you Blender heads, Povray had a denoiser in 1996. Blender is getting an experimental one in 2017 and you're all happy happy joy joy.
>>578489we had a post production denoiser. but now were getting a more simplified one
>>578517Keep in mind that a de-noiser doesn't add any new information to a picture. It just trades noise for blotches. As usual, you Blender cult leaders are hyping something that's going to disappoint people.
>>578531Blender, Renderman, POVRay. You'd be bitching either way because Denoisers all work the same. So shut it and leave /3/. Either that or focus your hate to a broader scale.
>>578557>focus your hate to a broader scaleNot until Blender continues to be the piece of useless satanic garbage that it is.
>>578563wow your'e not even kidding
>>578563Seriously? What about Maya 2016/17 and how it cashes on people? Why not C4D and how lacking it is compared to other programs? Why not lightwave and how people still think it's anywhere remotely passable?
>>578566There are many other tools, maybe not open source, but low cost that unlike Blender, are pleasant to use, useful and that may help you get some job some day.With Blender you lose from the beginning.
>>578570most 3d artists don't have the privilege at a luxurious 3d job like your'e describingyou are delusional to think that using autodicks is an instant key to success. like going to study at harvard or yale
>>577504It needs a bevel shader that can be baked in.
>>577526>It's way too noisy and dedicated render tools can get better results in about the same time.>t. I don't know how to settings properlyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gSyEpt4-60
I used to be fairly content with Cycles until I tried V-ray and then other render engines. I would never ever go back to Cycles. the best way to improve it is to drop it and use another render engine altogether.
>>578584explain your reasoningim tempted to switch at this point. but the compatibility is shit
>>578584Faster, cleaner renders, better quality, easier to make materials, more physically accurate materials, better shaders for characters(the alshader for skin to be more specific that is implemeted in the newer versions of V-ray), ways to optimize your renders for increased speed and quality based on specific scene, more accurate lighting, vray now comes with some pretty nice CPU/CUDA hybrid rendering that is awesome, pausing your renders, easier to set up and a bigger amount of render passes for easier compositing and PP, real caustics. I'm sure there's more, this is just what I like about it
>>578577Brecht is working on it, I saw some early results. Works like Modo's rounded edge shader and can be baked. >>578566He is not completely insane cause even if Maya is still a bitchy mistress, shitting the bed constantly, she gets triple A+ Movies done. C4d is seriously lacking in some departments. Doesn't hinder lots of hipsters with MacBookPro's to earn sick rates for stupid Mograph Jingles and silly broadcast stuff.I saw some cheap VFX in a SciFi series from 2017 which was 100% done in Lightwave (looked like shit from 1995), so even those suckers earn some money with their ancient tool. Blender users will still talk about Man in the high castle when nobody else is remembering it. >>578585other anon here.I never got Vray for Blender running and i am not willing to put up with another separate version of Blender just for a fucking renderer. If you want to render with V-ray, take 3ds Max, it has the best implementation of it. I personally model in Blender but i render in Max/Maya or C4d using Redshift, Renderman or Arnold.
>>578590I'm >>578584 > Of course I don't render in Cycles. I use Blender for modeling and i render in Maya.
>>578590i don't really compare titles to determine if a program is good or bad, its just not a good way to do it.also i don't think that blender have to parade titles around, we all know that the college industry and the corporate world is laser focused on autodesk, they aren't even willing to consider other software as an option.if someone actually came forward and wrote an analysis on why on how all of those different software compare then it would have some validity.i already accepted that cycles is flawed, because its something that's not hard to miss. but yet saying that blender is incapable of production work is simply a lie. there are only several posters here that can really attest to the capabilities of blender because they tried every tool, so its not an easy comparison to make
>>577516Shieeett, even software development is getting fucked bt progressiveness? This like a really dumb nightmare getting more and more stupid
Hold on blenderfags, I got this.
>>578595>they aren't even willing to consider other software as an option.but that is not true and a straw-man. Maybe they do evaluate software all the time and come to the conclusion that Blender doesn't cut it?Or they follow the " never change a running system" philosophy.You want to tell me that a profit-driven company would not consider spending less money?You know that this is bullshit. Hollywood VFX is a 100% capital driven economy and if there is someone who can cut corners and spend less money he becomes more competitive. But maybe they come to the conclusion that even if Blender is free, the cost of re-training and other things is as high as using Autodesk so they do don't do it. Or they might cut costs, but spend more time (=$).Would you rather:spend 1000$ on software, work one week, earn 2000$or use free software, work 2 weeks, earn 2000$ ?I also wouldn't say that Blender is incapable of production work, i would say that doing it with other tools is a) more comfortableb) easierc) fasterd) gives more qualityall equals to money.There are disciplines where Blender simply fails, but other more mundane VFX like set-extensions can be done in Blender (see Man in the high castle)I know a little-bit of XSI and Max, i have worked professionally with Maya and C4d, i think i can make that comparison.Blender has a lot of power, but there comes a point where it fails because it doesn't have the functionality. Max, Maya and XSI have more functionality, ergo they are objectively more able. THAT and only that is the deciding factor.The customer comes to you and asks: "Can you do this until next week?"He might be giving no shits what software you use, he is only concerned with the end result and the deadline. Can you deliver?
>>578611you admitted that its complacency, there is nothing more to say.i know people that use sketchup+vray for everything even if it can't handle cloth simulation. arnold+redshift+modo are the modern equivalent of those hunks of shit, its just a fixation issue.like someone in the other thread mentioned, maya doesn't even have clipping mirror which is fundamental to modeling. what about orto views you can control? its already in the making and you keep justifying it.i will give you the cost/benefit analysis however
>>578590>Blender users will still talk about Man in the high castle when nobody else is remembering it.I'm a Blender user and even I don't remember it. I know Hardcore Henry used Blender for a few shots.Also Super Mansion used Blender for a few VFX shots: https://vimeo.com/171674521 Thing is, while Maya and its ilk dominate, it's not like Blender isn't used in the industry, it's just a really minuscule scale.
>>578573It looks like you lack the privilege of being able to read.
>>578613>complacencyI am not a native english speaker so i had to look up that word:1: self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies. 2: an instance of usually unaware or uninformed self-satisfactionIts not complacency if you successfully delivered works the customer (and yourself) are satisfied with. You imply deficiencies when there are none. Dealing with crashy bitchy Maya might not be ideal, but you'll get the job done and the customer is satisfied. Whats the alternative? Using Blender? Who is unaware of what? >Maya is a shit modellertell me something newAnd while it may be true that Maya is missing some tools Blender has, how about the 300+ tools Maya has and Blender is missing?Cost/benefit and missing functionality are the 2 main reasons Blender is not used much in the industry.
>>578619>how about the 300+ tools Maya has and Blender is missing?which? im afraid you don't even know what your'e talking about, you might have bought into the meme that maya is irreplaceable because some hollywood oligarchs put it up on job ads
>>578621pfffft how lameYou expect me to give you a list?How about you address my central point?Are you really denying that Maya, Max and XSI have more functionality than Blender?What is the alternative to Maya for heavy A+ animation? What software should Hollwood oligarchs put up into Job ads? Blender?
>>578621It's not the amount of tools. It's how those tools work toghether. In Blender, the tools don't work at all and the Blender Foundation is a cult with no foot into the jobs market whatsoever. After years and years of Blender and indoctrination by "tutorials" and "gurus" and your only exit is to drink the kool-aid.>>578627>Blender?Not even once.
>>578621>>578627>>578634Can't we all just admit that every CG program is shit and that CG animators are fucking terrible?
>>578639Can't we all just admit that Blender is terrible?Yes we can.
>>578644Can we admit that you are terribleYes we can
>>578627>you expected me to prove my argument with facts? how dare you?!>>578634again, no argument, no skills, no track record. just disappear from existence please
IS THIS THE THREAD WHERE WE SAY THAT BLENDER IS SHIT???? LMAO XDDDDDD OLOLOLOL
>>577504Cycles was a fucking mistake, you have so many other good standalone renderers and free rendering solutions that be integrated into Blender already. Why are they doing this? Is it because they've already invested so much time into Cycles that if they give up now they'll look like fools? They need to go back to working on shit that people actually want like resurrecting auto mesh topology, revamping the sculpting workflow, upgrading the texture paint tools so that they can support layers instead of having to use different materials for each texture layer like a fucking hack. Cycles is killing Blender!
>>577504a simpler method of rendering with culled backfacesim just really salty that im too smallbrain to figure out how to fucking cull backfaces in a cycles render, I want to use geometry based outlines because im not a shaderfag and freestyle is the ugliest most worthless shit
>>578650You are still hung up about the obvious bait i put in my post to see if you are clever enough to sidestep it? You still do not address the central point. Nor do you answer any of my questions.Are you really denying that Maya, Max and XSI have more functionality than Blender?
>>578650How about your Blender "track record". Show us.
>>578679the burden of proof is on you my friend.
>>578681You have nothing to show. Typical Blender user.
>>578651It's always the same 1-2 people doing it.To say it isn't flawed is a bit of a lie though, as there's a lot of things the other programs can do better than Blender and vice versa.
>>578685That's only a piece of the argument. Sure Blender is unpleasant to use and extremely buggy and useless from a technical standpoint but most importantly the Blender Foundation is run like a cult, the Blender tutorial circle is made of cheap messiah, its fans act like rabid cult members and there are no jobs available anywhere for people with Blender experience.
>>578687My point taken.If Blender is so bad, then why not post some of your own work in Maya then? Because you suck at it and you suck as a person.Now fuck off and die or start bashing something else already.
>>578688Because I don't use Maya?
>>578692Well then what do you use? Or do you just secretly detest all 3D programs but don't show it because you know you'd be spammed to hell and back by all the people who use them?So by all means, tell us, what program do you use?
>>578693I'm the Duke Nukem/Doom/Quake guy AND the 51% of the people who post on this board AND the Terry A. Davis of 3D CG. I use a long list of software some of which I write myself. Read the archives or stick around for when I dispense my wisdom if you want to know the details.
>>577516>>578597Yeah remember before all that progressive shit caught on, when blender and Mozilla had not bloat or stupid dev bullshit? Idiots
>>578695nobody gives a shit about your duke
>>578699Ok. I'm a bad person. Nobody cares about me. Blender is still garbage.
>>578701So's Maya, C4D, 3DS, Lightwave, DAZ, Poser, Rhino, Solidworks, CAD, Sketchup, PowerAnimator....Every program's like this, fuck industry, they're all self-serving cunts.
>>578673>You are still hung up about the obvious bait i put in my post to see if you are clever enough to sidestep it? >clever baitare you fucking serious? i don't argue to show my intellectual muscle like a retard (if you think that's what arguing is all about) i just thought this was an honest mistake made by uninformed little man like yourself>Are you really denying that Maya, Max and XSI have more functionality than Blender?yes im denying it, because i actually took the time to watch comparison video and i have 3 years on 3d software.>You still do not address the central point. Nor do you answer any of my questions.and it will keep on happening if you keep with this infantile behavior
>>578718Do you really think i keep a list of things i can do in Maya, but can't do in Blender? Obviously the number 300 is something i pulled out of my ass, a very crude estimate, because i don't really know how many features Maya has. There are people working with Maya for over a decade and they don't even have a grasp of half of the tools. >yes im denying it, because i actually took the time to watch comparison video and i have 3 years on 3d software.Usually i would tear you a new one for admitting that your "knowledge" is from comparison videos, but its late, i am tired, so i don't. I also don't wanna play the ego game and tell you that i have over 10 years of 3d software experience and worked in the industry a decade ago....and i did this and that and yada, yada....Because its the fucking internet and you can't check if i tell the truth or not. Btw i am not that Duke Nukem/Doom/Quake guy who thinks Blender is a cult. But if you really think that Blender has feature parity with the big ones you really have an problem:Your information is wrong. And its in YOUR interest to find out the truth. Don't trust me, don't trust anyone, find it out yourself.And the best way to do it is by experience.
Do we really need this thread at any and all times?Fuck, just shit on their models not their program of choice.
>>578726>your information is wrong!>why? because i know its wrong. ez pz m8
>>578731It's /3/, everyone shits on 3D programs, models and even the people themselves. That's just a 4Chan tradition, ask any other board and they'll say the same thing.
>>578621Not the guy you were talking to and definitely no expert in Maya but it does seem to have more tools than Blender. All the main stuff is there but there are a lot of tiny things that Maya has that makes some things a lot easier, Some examplesNurbs modeling is a lot more advanced than what Blender has, rendering options such as light linking, better integration with different render engines(try to get Arnold for Blender), transfer atributes function, measuring tools, Udims and there is probably a lot more. Hell, even the fact that Maya has very well written documentation is a huge plus. I'm sure there are workarounds for these in blender like there are for most issues, but most people don't want to start looking for solutions, they prefer to get the best result without having so scour the forums for workarounds.
>>578775i don't want this thread to keep being a shit flinging battleground, but ill answer anyway.i agree that maya might have more tools, blender nurbs modeling feels ancient and you need a parametric addon to actually do anything worthwhile.blender does have transfter attributes fuction (but which one?) it can copy nodes,weight,rigs,normals,groups and other data as well.blender doc is shit? yes, for sure. but luckily the community puts out alot of free tutorials around.you should take into account the video editor and game engine, altho maya does have an integral game engine (stingray) which comes for free? it surely is better than blender game, but i never seen how it looks/feels so i can't give an opinion.hows the motion capture/compositor in maya?
>>578776Nobody gives a flying fuck that Blender has a game engine, a video-editor and compositor, because in a professional environment you have dedicated tools for every one of those disciplines. Its nice for an indie studio or a freelancer, but none of those integrated tools can match the dedicated tools. btw. Stingray is shit, literally nobody uses it, i am not even sure if its still in Maya 2018.
>>578779its not supposed to match the dedicated tools. you just pointed out that maya have a shitload of tools, so you just have to factor that in.
>>578781oh and you can't even texture in maya, so consider that deducted
>>578779>because in a professional environment you have dedicated tools for every one of those disciplines.not always, some movies used the majority of the compositor, some freelancers use the video editor.i don't know you'd bother mention muh pipeline! we are just discussing the software itself.
Reminder that the Blender "game engine" is in an unuseable state (like the rest of Blender) and is under the GPL (like the rest of Blender). That means you will never be able to sell your game even if you manage to make one. They also break the API every single release and it's not a coincidence there are ZERO games made with Blender. The video editor is a joke (like the rest of Blender).
>>578800bge doesn't really serve as a game engine (even if it can) its just there to make simulations more convenient.but the video editor isn't bad, if you compare it to any freeware editor out there
>>578753"Everyone else is doing it!"Go kill yourself. Everyone else is doing it.
>>578782How exactly can't you?By the way you say it, you mean to say that Maya can't accept any textures, which is wrong as all get out. If you mean painting textures then you're wrong on that front too, I did a YouTube search that already confirms that Maya can do texture painting.
>>578809If everyone else is doing it, why aren't you?Don't worry, I'll wait.
>>578803All freeware editors are shit and unusable for professional work.If Blender's video editor is not bad in comparison, in reality that means its still sub-par.
Can I ask a quick blender questionI sculpt on zbrush and export my model to retepo on Blender.Is there a way to reduce the lag of the high poly mesh being in place?
>>578815you talk too much about proffessional work. if you were a pro you would know that managers usually give good artists freedom of choice when it comes to software.it used to be that only a few programs dominated the market and this forced a pipeline, but since many many programs advanced and exporting quality improved there is no need to be complacent
>>578826also, modern tools are available to anyone. people with decent 3d skills/programming skills can pickup unity and unreal and get to work. teams of 5-10 people can make amazing content nowadays with the tools available to the public. there have been several movies made with blender gimp and krita and they fall only slightly short of big studious.really, fuck off with your pipeshit, this has gone too far. the discussion should be whenever you have the work ethic and skills to achieve what you want to achieve, everything else is negotiable and negligible
>>578800GPL allows you to sell your software.
>>578838You can sell icicles at the north pole.
>>578826>managers usually give good artists freedom of choiceYou must have never left the basement of your house. Let us know if you need help.
>>578828WTF? The argument started about the industry and how Blender is not used much in it and now you complain i talk to much about professional work? Really? Artist skills is not the topic when talking about the abilities of the software. If you have the work ethic and the skills and Blender shits the bed because it can't handle the (insert complex AAA+ VFX) than this is negotiable or negligible?Again, nobody gives a flying fuck which tool you use to get the job done, they ONLY care about efficiency. Its just that a lot of people in the industry believe that Blender isn't up to the task of doing everything that comes their way and especially NOT bleeding edge stuff. >>578824No, if your computer lags, than it can't handle more. You could cut your High poly model into pieces and retopo piece by piece.Is it symmetrical? Cut in the middle and mirror the retopo'd mesh.
>>578849>nobody gives a flying fuck which tool you useEmployers do. Especially if it's Blender, in which case they don't employ you.
>>578851Depends on the employer, but if you only can use Blender chances are high that you're fucked because the next guy who uses M/M is right around the corner.But customers usually don't care and they don't know. They only care about time, money and end result.
>>578814Because I'm not a piece of trash who has to do whatever everyone else is doing to feel good about my micro penis.
>>578846donnie oliver works for elite3d, max puliero worked on dark souls,andy goralzcyk worked on big buck bunny etc. just because blender gave you a hard time in the distant past does not mean you have to shitfling like an autist, even on 4chan autism have its limits >>578849we were generally discussing the software itself, you had to insert *industry* and *pipeline* in every post you made. no one even fucking uses 1 program for their pipeline, blender would only serve a basic function in a pipeline, same thing with maya
>>578869A grand total of three people worked with Blender on free short movies.>same thing with mayaYou're joke.
>>578871that's not what i said. at this point i can see that your'e strawmanning and acting like a child.i wish the best of luck to you, because you will need it
>>578856You really think I was talking about myself in that pst, do You?How's about you threaten Blender cultfag. I'm sure he should be able neck himself.
>>578890If you go to a shitty neighborhood to live in, you don't start acting like shit, too.At least not if you want it to improve.
>>578895If you can't accept 4Chan (and by proxy, /3/) is a cesspool that'll never change, then why are you even here?
>>578900no problem with exchanging bantz from time to time, there is a different between that and people that are consistently repetitive and annoying with old memes, part of what makes humor great is variety. repeating the same meme for years might imply theres something wrong with you
>>578901I hear you, and that's the problem I have with Blender cultfag.Does Blender have flaws? Yes, some even program breaking. But what about the people who acknowledge it, but still find it useful to some degree?Then you got all the people stroking Autodesk's e-penis because Maya's used in the industry, when it's entirely possible that the majority of them don't know how it even works. it works both ways.
>>578800>ZERO gamesWhat is Luckys tale
>>578904blender have alot of flaws, but its not what people make it out to be. blender tried to be everything and that's why its stagnating. its nice to have a render engine built into the software, but blender foundation neglected alot of other areas, sometimes i even recommend max to people because i know blender falls short in 'x' category. but again, its not bad - the devs made some bad decisions
>>578905I don't know what that is. Nobody's ever heard of it outside of your Blender cult.
>>578900>>578901The problem is that it's the same shitty thread every single time. No new arguments are made. You might as well just talk to a wall.4Chan may be a cesspool, but at least it used to be contained to certain threads.
>>578653I never had much luck getting luxrender or mitsuba working. Cycles is easier out of the gate, less buggy, and got results I wanted.
>>578653A major problem with blender in general is they decide on one thing to upgrade and then let branches handle literally everything else.So anything that isn't the feature of the week gets shit on and has to depend on random people to upgrade it.
>>578970cycles is decent if you figure out to how light up your scene properly, sadly there isn't much information on how to do that
>>578982There's like many different options to do that, like the lamps and Emission shader. But next to nothing about HOW to use them. That's the thing that bugs me the most about lighting in Cycles.And it doesn't help that the lamps themselves aren't well-optimized for the engine either.
I use regular Blender Render 99% of the time because Cycles and Eevee are slow as fuck.I only use Cycles for neat material shader stuff.
>>579821You should have a graphics card
>>579822I have a GTX 950. I know it isn't the best video card around, but it isn't too shabby. I always set it on GPU Compute and it's still slow as fuck.Take a look at this, I just cooked up a little example, Cycles took 5 seconds to render the cube of the default scene. I didn't do anything special, I've only modified the default scene by orienting the Camera in front of the object, and it was at 50% of 1080p resolution. For Blender Render, this would've been an instantaneous render.
>>579823Make sure you have your card shows up and you have CUDA selected in User Pref > Compute Device. Change tile size to X: 512 Y: 512, reduce glossy and diffuse bounces to 1 (works for most scenes), increase threads depending on CPU (I have a quad core but set it to 3 threads so I can still use my computer during renders)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gSyEpt4-60#t=3m54s
>>579825thanks for the advice. just setting the tile size to 512x512 cut the render time of that cube in half.
>>579823you should change alot of render settings first before rendering in cycles. the config is so shit you get a 300% speed boost by the time you are done
Use luxrender for stills and renderman for animation and characters.
>>579825>reduce glossy and diffuse bounces to 1That would disable or severely cripple global illumination. No wonder it's going to be faster but then what's the point of using Cycles at all over the internal render? I really do not think you and your Blender Guru are people of normal intelligence.>>579847By the time you're done fudging with the config file your company would already be bankrupt. That's one of the many reasons why Blender will never ever be used in any production.
>>579888>By the time you're done fudging with the config file your company would already be bankruptthat's 5 minutes of your time, but 3D artists nowdays are so lazy that even 5 minutes of tweaking is excessive.and faggots like you are the worst kind, you can argue for hour on why something is "x" without even knowing what the fuck your'e saying.its like a homeless guy walking into a finance firm and and talk mad shit to everyone
>>579913>that's 5 minutes of your timeYou spent 5 days at the very least of your time to come to the conclusion that Cycles is slow, worthless and if you disable global illumination it goes faster. You're lucky you don't have a business but don't worry, you'll never have one.
>>579916>get destroyed in an argument>walk it off like nothing happenedthat's not how it works
>>578577Already have that with Hardops