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Anyone know of any good reads/watches for the theory behind PBR?
>>
here you go.

http://polycount.com/discussion/155096/substance-designer-tutorial-list
>>
Cool thanks anon.
>>
its a real time meme unfortunately. The only way to fly is with toon shading.
>>
>>551455
honestly realism is a meme. it always gets outdated so quickly, but the designs with their own style look good for much longer.

there are ps1 games that look better than mass effect andromeda.

however, the layman doesn't understand art and merely responds to high resolution textures and high poly counts and last decade's run of the mill shaders.
>>
>>551456
this
>>
>>551456
hi brum
>>
Great SIGGRAPH talk on PBR/BRDF theory (also discusses the limitations of PBR model)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-A0mwsJRmk
>>
>>551456
>photos are a meme, they look too grainy and they don't even have color

- painters in the 19th century

you have to realise we're at the infancy of the computer graphics, realistic games look outdated fast because we're improving fast
>>
>>551464
>realistic games look outdated fast because we're improving fast
and yet nothing has changed since 2008's Avatar. The industry is dying.
>>
>>551468
because avatar had gorillion dollar production value and looks amazing

what's your point?
>>
>>551469
almost 10 years have gone by and theres been no progress. The other day I bought Avatar on blu ray, the 3d version and watched it on a 3d tv and it was still the best looking cg ever made and the 3d stereo put it over the top. The industry has grown so stagnant...its....pathetic...
>>
>>551468
that's because the industry is saturated. why hire the best man for the job when you can hire some average dude that will probably will work mostly for free and do a shit job and has no idea how next gen looks and feels like
>>
>>551470
it's "stagnated" because avatar already looks realistic, obviously you can't go beyond that

also this thread is about realtime rendering and that hasn't stagnated at all
>>
>>551461
Hey thanks dude I'll give this a good watch.
>>
>>551472
it has, play a few games son. Everything looks like crap. In substance you only have one main object and various subjects to calculate, not an entire engine with physics, algorithms, etc.

Tl;dr you're retarded
>>
>>551475
no it hasn't, realtime rendering capability is entirely related to hardware and as long as hardware is improving, rendering quality is improving

tl:dr stop posting
>>
>>551476
according to that logic we could have todays graphics in the Apple II era by just having enough of them in the same room. Please kys,
>>
>>551456
a Chinese cartoon forum doesn't like realism.
what do you know.
>>
>>551477
yes?

you could have flawless realtime graphics if you built a supercomputer to that end but it's not economically or otherwise feasible so it's not done

just stop posting man
>>
>>551479
please just stop it, you're obviously trolling and butthurt over something. I'm trying to get work done,
>>
>>551480
you're not trying to get work done, you're posting retarded comments on /3/
>>
>>551481
I'm trying to get work done and dealing with some dude with assburgers via short texts on anonymous forum
>>
>>551483
just admit you're blatantly wrong and go back to working on your non-realistic anime girls man
>>
>>551484
whatever dude, go cry into your battlefield or what not. Maybe plan your GDC speech or what not
>>
>>551485
ok w/e
>>
>>551452
I shoot light at wall. Two lights shouldn't come back
>>
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>>551455
>>551456
>industry standard
>meme
lmao
>>551452
pbr is pretty easy once you get your head around it. Keep in mind that metal/gloss and cos/spec work differently
>tfw current project has really strict requirements for spec gloss due to their game engine
>>
>>551783
Industry standard is literally a meme.
>>
>>551793
technically correct is the best kind of correct
>>
>>551455
>its a real time meme unfortunately.

Nothing memey about trying to have materials that look the same way across different software.

My only complaint is that things made for UE4 look like they're made for UE4, and it's kind of leading to a homogeneous look to 3D art (especially on Artstation)
>>
>>551877
>UE4 look
wat? examples, please
>>
>>551877
>ue4 look
gears of war 4 look
>>
>>551455
>PBR is a meme

Feel free to create your own rendering system, then. I'll stick with PBR since it has somehow become a standard very quickly. If something better comes along (from you or anyone else) and it sees widespread use, I'll start using it.

I don't care how materials are rendered as long as they look nice, are believable in the context of the scene and load quickly.
>>
>>551881
its not the standard and it looks like shit. Look at >>551880.

Trash pushed by that autist Tim Sweeney
>>
>>551883
I like PBR. I'm glad it's becoming widely used, it looks much better and realistic than old specular shading.
>>
>>551883
So you're saying something like this looks bad to you?

https://sketchfab.com/models/5e53e0cc5d554388a3b2c2ae551b406c

You're free to believe that if you want, but good luck convincing potential employers that PBR looks like shit.
>>
>>551885
it looks fucking awful and not realistic at all. Id rather have a painterly look. I could gaf about "potentiul employers" since I have a job
>>
>>551886
>painterly look

What does this even mean? Stylized textures? PBR is just a method for rendering. You can still have a "painterly look"

https://80.lv/articles/kraken-attack-stylized-approach-to-pbr/

I think you're extremely opinionated about something you know very little about.
>>
>>551890
You know nothing about PBR. I like the hyper cartoon look, like street fighter V or No mans sky. Fuck the pbr metallic workflows
>>
>>551886
>looks fucking awful and not realistic at all

>>551892
>I like the hyper cartoon look, like street fighter V or No mans sky

fucking wot
>>
>>551901
if you dont understand not everything needs to be realistic youre a fucking retard. Artists have been working for millions of years without "realism", its only recently that idiots like you have became obsessed with it. Its fucking terrible since computer graphics does a shit job at realism but obv fucking autists dont care.

go back to your cave to make "realistic" renders of metal balls to post on artstation and jerk off with your buddies like the autistic manchild you are while I work a real job over here.
>>
>>551903
What's your real job, anon?
>>
PBR in all its "glory". Yes, this is state of the art for ue4
>>
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>>551903
>if you dont understand not everything needs to be realistic youre a fucking retard.

that's not my point

you said that it wasn't realistic but you're implying things like pic related ARE?
>>
>>551903
Did I hit a nerve? I don't see why you hate a rendering system so much. There's plenty of things coming out that take a stylized approach so there's no need to get angry about it. It's definitely the most popular style for indie games.
>>
>>551908
this looks so much better than anything else itt
>>
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>>551907
PBR was first described over a decade ago. Remember Me was the first game to use it extensively.

https://www.fxguide.com/featured/game-environments-partc/

Epic Games didn't invent it.
>>
>>551910
we're reaching levels of shit taste that shouldn't even be possible
>>
>>551912
>muh opinions
>muh realism
>>
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So much shitting on PBR in this thread.
>>
>>551915
A lot of autists are on tonight.
>>
>>551910
Holy fuck nigger are you serious? The only other images in this thread are GoW headshots and a photo.
>>
>>551908
needs more poo
>>
>>551915
fuck, idk why you idiots are so insistent on shilling PBR, shit honestly looked better before it
>>
>>551919
you don't like wax anon?
>>
>>551920
only on my thighs in a sexual setting
>>
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>>551920
You want wax? Let's talk about the specular/gloss system.
>>
>>551923
i hope you realize spec/gloss is still in pbr, anon
>>
>>551925
Yes, but it's not necessary to the workflow. I've only used it while working on eyes and a couple of wet textures.
>>
>>551930
but spec gloss is literally the way pbr works, metal/rough just simplifies it with a binary, catch-all parameter
>>
>>551932
I'm just using the nomenclature. I've only actively used a dedicated specular or gloss map in a handful of projects based on PBR. You are right in the sense that it's just a different approach to spec/gloss, or whatever other terms we use to describe microsurface and reflectivity.
>>
>>551915
toon shills are working overtime tonight
>>
PBR and toonshading

living in harmony
>>
PRB IS NOT ABOUT REALISM ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY YOU DUMB FUCKING MONGOLOIDS
>>
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>>551949
explain
>>
>>551953
we're not doing this again
>>
>>551949
PBR sucks the life and fun out of development, like a plague. If it looks good, it is good is my motto.
>>
>>551975
apology for poor topo

when were you when creativity is kill?

i was sat at workstation working on latest space marine model when creative director ring

'creativity is kill, pbr now'

'no'

and you?????????????
>>
>>551944
Actually they do.
I love both.
People who believe one is "better" than the other are just retards who confuse objective truth with personal preference.
>>
>>551987
but there is an objective truth, though
PBR is a meme, shills pretend it's more realistic but it's not even remotely the way the physics work so it cannot be.
>>
>>551988
shit coming out of my anus and falling in your mouth is an objective truth
>>
>>551988
The objective truth is that no shading algorithm works the way physics works, even the notion of a BSSRDF is an approximation. The only fundamental truth is whether your approximation to gives good looking results with an efficient workflow for artists and rendering engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-A0mwsJRmk

So that's what PBR is all about, it's easy to understand, easy to implement in software, and gives generally good results, so that's why everyone uses it.
>>
>>551988
people don't pretend it's "more realistic", the reason PBR exists in the first place is to make it much easier to produce materials that approximate real surfaces without having to have a spreadsheet of specular values
>>
>>552014
people use PBR because its a buzzword, like adding volunteering to your resume even if you never did. All you need is ggx spec, a cubemap with hdr values, and some filmic tonemapping and ssao
>>
>>552019
that's great if you're a forever alone in a basement like you, if you're working across a team across an industry it's better to have a standard
>>
>>551879
a bloom effect that look like it's 20 years old and textures made to combat or work with UE's traditionally shitty texture compression.
>>
>>552023
if you're talking about exaggerated bevels on edges I'm afraid that's specific to a lot of games
if you're talking about bloom it can be turned off
>>
>>552022
the standard is what i just mentioned, newfag
>>
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>>552026
PBR is the standard now and for good reason. You can try managing a workflow involving HDR cubemaps, tonemaps, SSAO settings versus metal and roughness values which always give the same result.

For what it's worth, a lot of people thought SSAO was a "buzzword" and look where we are now.
>>
>>551975
In what way does it limit you?
>>
>>551975
But PBR can look good. So it is good, right?

If you can't make it look good, that means you aren't competent as an artist.
>>
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Is this a joke thread, or is it full of baffoons that refer to metallic/smoothness workflow as PBR?
>>
>>552042
>metallic/smoothness
are you retarded
>>
>>552046
Are you
>>
>>552037
PBR isnt standard, its just a buzzword for what i just described. Nice pic of u btw. But, you have to be 18 to post here.
>>
>>552048
woops I took the bait
>>
>>552042
Elaborate.
>>
>>552050
There is literally nothing to elaborate. Just a lot of confused people.
>>
>>552051
>using Unity

I bet you model with Blender, too
>>
>>552050
Its a buzzword for phyiscally "korrect" things like ggx, tonemapping, awful lens flares, oren-nayar diffuse, ssao and the like.

The result is the gears of war 4 awfulness we saw earlier itt. One of the worst things to ever hgappen to the industry is Epic and Tim Sweeny
>>
When I become king of the world I'm going to make it illegal under pain of death to misuse the word "meme".
>>
>>552054
What the hell is with you and Gears of War/Epic/Tim Sweeny?
>>
>>552058
unreal engine is the cancer i have to use errday
>>
>>552060
Then tell your employer what you told us. Be succint and brutally honest. I'm sure he'll find all of your points well-thought-out and will promote you to lead tech artist. There is literally nothing that can go wrong.
>>
>>552061
I only tell what I truly feel when I can be anon. Otherwise I live a lie, pretending
>>
What exactly are you even discussing itt

PBR != Unreal Engine
PBR != Substance Painter

If you are complaining that you hate the look of UE then that's cool, use something else, but in current year all of the main alternatives are PBR these days. Exceptions are basically Mental Ray and shitty indie game engines
>>
>>552065
>Mental Ray
let's see you run your games in metal ray bud, sure know what you're talking about
>>
>>552065
>MENTAL RAY
KEK
>>
end of the line is *yes*, pbr is a meme, i have done freelance for several game companies and none of them have used it (or are currently planning to use it)
it's a flawed rendering method and is by no means an improvement over tried and tested techniques, it will eventually come to pass like bloom, tonemapping, and all the other shitty graphic memes
>>
>>552068
1gen
>diffuse
>specular
>vertex color
2gen
>gloss
>emission
>opacity
>ambient occlusion

3gen
>metallic
>roughness

whats wrong with it? we are only getting ahead.
>>
>>552070
except half of the shaders you named are also memes and absolutely unnecessary in texxxturing
>>
why dont you like PBR /3/?
i'm new to 3D i don't get it.
>>
>>552072
the industry is not forcing you to be versatile.
>>
>>552073
shitty shilled meme, the same as lens flare, "subsurface scattering" and forced perspective, people will abuse it to no end until you get tired of it
people against pbr are the only people with good taste
>>
>>552075
yeah, except ive actually worked in the industry unlike you.
what are your credentials, bud?
>>
>>552077
lets just say i don't do mobileshit for living to excuse my lack of versatility
>>
>>552066
>>552067
I'm saying that PBR principles are used in all offline renderers except Mental Ray and all realtime render engines except shitty or last-gen realtime. Why would I be saying that that Mental Ray is a realtime render engine. Learn to comprehend text you dumbasses.
>>
>>552080
and the PBR principles according to you are...?
>>
>>552080

And also continuing my original post:

PBR != using metallic channel
PBR != realtime
>>
>>552080
all rendering is done offline, cretin
>>
>>552082

PBR means:
> Materials should obey conservation of energy and should be possible to derive from physical first principles. (no Phong)
> All materials should be able to exhibit specular highlights. Nothing is 100% diffuse. (no Lambert)
> BRDF is used as basic principle for rendering equation. (Majority of the interesting surface detail should be contained in a roughness map)
> Specular highlights follow the laws of physics. (Unless the material is a metal, materials should use uncolored specular. Highlights obey Fresnel law. Because reflections are physically the same thing as specular, they are not treated differently in the render engine.)
> Additions to the BRDF (SSS, transparency, emissive) should also follow physical principles. At the very least they should not violate conservation of energy.
>>
>>552087
>2017
>BRDF
>>
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>>552087
this is absolutely fucking accurate

>>552089
typical /3/ autism
>>
>>552091
oh yeah? maybe you should explain why you think we need brdf if it's so useful.
>>
>>552087
copy and paste job with no meaning is what i get from this post. Try again when you get a job in this industry.
>>
>>552093
why would anyone waste time doing that when you can just google it? learning requires initiative

>>552094
>with no meaning
if you don't understand what this anon is saying, one can suspect you're shit tier
>>
>>552095
You're shit tier. I specifically asked for what something meant according to you/him and i got a copy / paste
>>
>>552097
Kek, go back to /b/
>>
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>>552097
>>
>>552102
>>552103
GO OUTSIDE AND GET JOBS IN THE INDUSTRY BEFORE POSTING ITT AGAIN
>>
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>>552105
geez how butthurt can you be?
mfw im art directing on AAA shit and you're probably struggling to get a part-time gig to model low poly nostrils on characters for facebook games
>>
>>552106
>my face when
>>
>>552106
SAVAGE holy fuck
>>
so, are there just a bunch of autists in this thread? i can't really understand what is disliked about PBR, i just see "it's a meme" or something along those lines.
>>
>>552118
Skimmed the thread; if you'll notice there are only 18 original posters but 120+ replies, your answer is obvious - Autism.

PBR has been around for a long time, however PBR is relatively newer in game engines. It's definitely not a meme as we use it all the time in renderers, but that's just the 4chan mentality. 4chan is just filled with a bunch of autists pretending to work in the industry, with a handful of actual artists who work professionally. Keep this in mind when you browse /3/.
>>
>>552135
The autism goes deeper than that.
I am not pretendin to work in the industry but even jobless noobs like me can get their head around PBR.
These guys are emotional like PBR fucked their mom and killed their dad. Jesus fucking Christ !
>>
>>552135
>>552139
>autism
>counting posters / replies
ok budday
>>
>>552135
>PBR has been around for a long time
False, the metalness workflow exist only for a couple of years now.

>however PBR is relatively newer in game engines
Not an argument since PBR was specifically created for use in game engines

>we use it all the time in renderers
False, the majority of render engines only support the outdated specular map workflow

> 4chan is just filled with a bunch of autists pretending to work in the industry, with a handful of actual artists who work professionally.
So which one of the two are you? Hint: you got no idea whachu talking about
>>
>>552158
>False, the metalness workflow exist only for a couple of years now.

PBR is not about having a metalness map. Metalness is a rendering optimization used for realtime engines. It was removed in Renderman 21 because it's useless if you don't care about texture compression.


>Not an argument since PBR was specifically created for use in game engines
PBR is a reaction to purge old school phong/lambert/blinn shading invented by computer scientists with no consideration of physics.

This book is what made the term "PBR" popular. It's from 2004. http://www.pbrt.org/

Realtime engines didn't (or couldn't, due to hardware limitations) adopt these ideas until much more recently.


>False, the majority of render engines only support the outdated specular map workflow
Colored specular is necessary to produce colored metals like gold and copper.
>>
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>>552161
>PBR is not about having a metalness map
>>
>>552161
>Colored specular is necessary to produce colored metals like gold and copper.
Except it isnt, your supposed to put that color in albedo, there actually isnt a thing called "specular" in real life, its just a fake non-physically corect effect.
>>
>>552164
Specular in this instance refers to reflection of light or an approximation of it. In both cases for metals like gold the color you see comes from the colored reflections, not the albedo.

Gold is one of the first materials you should learn and understand, I think you skipped a few things while learning.
>>
>>552166
"gold"
looks more like urine tbf anon
>>
>>552166
Whatever dude, the nice thing about PBR is if your not sure about something you can always just use one of the many existing substances, no reason to reinvent the wheel every time you texture something
>>
>>552164
Wtf are you smoking, lol. Where did you learn that?

Specular = completely reflected light
Diffuse = light absorbed by the material and re-emitted.

Two physically destinct phenomena. That's why specular does not change the color of the incoming light, and also why diffuse has no directionality. None of this has anything to do with microfacets btw.
>>
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>>552171
Pic attached
>>
>>552172
you just described raytracers, which is pretty irrelevant seeing as pbr is for game engines
>>
>>552173
Hmm well with the latest realtime advancements with things like Unreal Engine omg you won't believe it but these modern engines seem to support diffuse and specular maps holy shit
>>
>>552175
these don't trace ray and utilize a differen shader function, you big baka gaijin
>>
>>552177
XD You are completely lost. You have no idea how shading works. You can talk again after you understand that the image above applies in exactly the same way for both realtime & ray tracing.
>>
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>>552161
this

>>552164
holy fuck
top zozzle, basement dweller!
learn your shit about metals and di-electrics

>>552173
>you just described raytracers
that's basically physics you moron, educate yourself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUgHPs86XM
>>
>>552181
raytracers rely on physics you fucking weapon
>>
>>552182
I know
the quote said:
>you just described raytracers, which is pretty irrelevant seeing as pbr is for game engines
....
I'm mentioning it being physics and thus relevant to PBR because.. you know.. it's fucking called PHYSICALLY-BASED
>>
>>552184
PBRT != PBR
>>
>>552221
both based on
>PB
which was the point originally
anyway, pointless to argue anymore
>>
>>552223
phong and lambert are "based" on the "physical" world m8. toon shaders are not

you're lagging
>>
>>552224
dude phong and lambert are not even suitable for raytracing (unless you're a blender n00b), it's not 1996 anymore. even things like blinn and ward are still broad approximations that are "functional" but dont reflect accurate physics
>>
>>552227
what are you talking about? vray's main shader is based on the lambertian function.
>>
>>552227
"approximation" is a synonym for "basis" you fucking 1st grader. 18+ board
>>
>>552230
technically /3/ isn't an 18+ board seeing as we're blue
>>
>>552235
read the global rules
>>
>>552237
you read the global rules, moron
>>
>>552241
says someone who doesnt know what a synonym is.
>>
>>552224
Are you just trolling hahahahahaha

Computing powers of cosines to generate specular highlights has nothing to do with the real world at all
>>
>>552246
what I said was an indisputable fact, unlike your faggotry
>>
>>552230
>"approximation" is a synonym for "basis"

Are you fucking retarded? By who's definition is this true?
Do you know what the word synonym means?

>>552235
"2. You will immediately cease and not continue to access the site if you are under the age of 18."

Reading is real fucking hard for you degenerate faggots, isn't it?
>>
>>552235
i'm pretty sure blue means safe for work.
>>
>>552227
>>552248
this

>>552228
but this is interesting as well, any sauce?
>>
>>552285

Lambertian reflection is physically based, it's the simple phenomenon that a surface is less bright as it is rotated away from the camera. It's used as a basis in basically all CG. But there's no such thing as a 100% pure Lambertian surface with no specular component. Even Vantablack reflects a tiny bit of light.
>>
>>552320
>But there's no such thing as a 100% pure Lambertian surface with no specular component
sure there is. Its called a Black Hole. Its at the center of our galaxy m8
>>
>>552025
>if you're talking about exaggerated bevels on edges I'm afraid that's specific to a lot of games
I'm not, I'm talking about UE4's shitty internal DDS block compression, makes it literally pointless to work on texture details.

>if you're talking about bloom it can be turned off
That's not the point, almost every single engine that was released in the last 5 years has better bloom. That shitty bloom was a telltale sign of UE3 and now it's becoming the telltale sign of UE4.
>>
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>>552323
>>
>>552328
>thinking the camera doesn't have an effect on the surface
look up double slit experiment and prepare to have your mind blown
>>
>>552326
>Lambertian reflection is physically based, it's the simple phenomenon that a surface is less bright as it is rotated away from the camera
humm maybe I'm understanding this wrong, but if the surface takes the camera into consideration, isnt that NOT physical (as in the real-world behaves) ? or is it some real property like fresnel or something?

> Even Vantablack reflects a tiny bit of light.
This is a good example! But isnt the "reflected" light only bounced light? I mean, in the sense that if one was to do that material in 3D, the diffuse would be something like 1/255 and the reflection/spec 0/255. I get the feeling that the two principles get confused sometimes when materials are designed.
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>>552330
yeah no I've pretty much done all the research an amateur can do (understand) on quantum mechanics, it's just no really relevent when it comes to create CG materials, at least top of my head I cant think of any example
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>>552332
if you don't understand basic quantum mechanics I don't see why anyone from /3/ should help you
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>>552335
can't you read?
> I've pretty much done all the research an amateur can do (understand) on quantum mechanics
I'm just not gonna dig into the deep mathematical realm of that stuff

btw, if you think you fully understand quantum mechanics, you're full of shit friendo
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>>552335
> if you don't understand basic quantum mechanics I don't see why anyone from /3/ should help you
> OP asking for PBR stuff

Shit man, the /3/ community struggles to have basic knowledge on PBR, anatomy, color, composition, etc. and you think they have any clue of what's going on with the tiniest components of the fabric of reality? Get real
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>>552330
I'm going to explain to you PBR, but first we need to talk about parallel universes.
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>>552323
Psh alright. Lol


>>552335
xD




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